| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1ScuroNotteDec 16, 2014 5:30:32 | Sorry if explained before. I don't understand how/why a sorcerer and warlock know less spells or same number, respectively, than Eldritch knight.
A Warlock gains certain Eldritch spells/abilities when moving up in levels, in addition to pact boons.
A Sorcerer has abilities through Draconic heritage and Wild Sorcerers have wild magic potentia. Both have use of spell points to gain spell lots or use metamagic.
Elsritch Knights have a number of fighting abilities as well as benefits of spell casting with an attack. But they are still fighters. So why the discrepancy in spell known allotment? |
| #2manduckDec 16, 2014 6:16:25 | Eldritch knights only have access to two schools of magic. Plus, if you aren't going to multi-class your EK only has spells up to level 4 while the casters have access to much higher spell levels. So the EK is very limited in actual spell casting ability, as they have fighting skills. So really, a pure caster will always be better at magic, getting spells up to level 9 and overall access to more spells in general. The EK may get more spells known but they have less options for those known spells. At least that's my understanding of it, I could be wrong. |
| (Reply to #2)ScuroNotte |
|
| #4CariadocThorneDec 16, 2014 10:08:33 | Sorcerers are deliberately meant to lack a lot of the versatility in spell selection of other spellcasters. They are powerful, having the ability to boost spells in a variety of ways, and convert sorcery points for more spell slots, but the trade off is not knowing many spells. This makes them great specialists in a particular type of magic (like fire spells), but not as good as generalists as others like wizards who can have a spell for every situation, if you they know what to expect so they can prepare in advance.
Warlocks trade regular spellcasting for invocations, which include once per rest spells and spells which can be used at will. They also have the option of tomepact and the invocation which let's them learn ritual spells, in which case they can learn loads of spells, but only as rituals. |
| #5SaelornDec 16, 2014 11:35:59 |
|
| (Reply to #5)ScuroNotte |
|
| #7awaken_D_M_golemDec 16, 2014 16:22:45 |
|
| #8AshrymDec 17, 2014 14:15:39 |
You lost me a bit. Sorcerers and warlocks learn more spells than eldritch knights. Eldritch knights have a wider variety from which to select a small portion of their fewer known spells and a tight restriction of two schools from which to select the rest. This is the same for arcane tricksters. Mike (iirc) tweeted that sorcerers are natural prodigies instead of the research and training other casters use as the explanation as to why sorcerers don't know as many spells as other casters or have the ritual caster class feature. Between spells known, arcanum, and invocations, warlocks are similar to bards for spells known. |
| (Reply to #8)ScuroNotte |
|
| (Reply to #9)Ashrym |
|
| (Reply to #10)ScuroNotte |
A warlock knows 15 spells of 5th level or lower, 4 spells of 6-9th level via arcanum, and typically 3 or so at-will spells via invocations for usually about 22 spells similar to bards, and technically can know up to 27 with all invocations spent to know more than wizards can prep; not that it would be a good idea but a high limit. 2 short rests is typically assumed per dm guidelines so 4 slots per short rest plus 4 arcanum plus 4 slots per day for the warlock capstone is 20 spells at a minimum of 5th level spell slot, plus more at-wills than other casters. A warlock built as a caster is far beyond eldritch knights or arcane tricksters when it comes to spellcasting and not struggling. Tome warlock is my preferred pact. Sorcerers are the odd one out out of major spellcasters when it comes to spells known but start with the most cantrips, do learn a few more spells than eldritch knights or arcane tricksters and have a wider selection, can cast spells of 5th level or higher, can recover spell slots with sorcery points, gain faster access to spells than minor casters, and have more ability to modify the spells they cast than other casters. Sorcerers aren't hurting either. The rationalization provided was sorcerers are natural prodigies instead of studying and learning. [/quote]
Warlocks regain all spell slots after short, which is great as they only have 4 spell slots available. And, as pointed out, realistically have 22 spells available to use. Including some abilities that are at will. And some special abilities based on patron. Still, 4 slots is poor. Maybe offer a spell 1 spell slot for levels 1 through 4?
Wizards have the most versatility with number of spells, recover spell slots of 1/2 their level after a short rest once (Arcan Recovery). Then special abilities based on school of choice. Sorcerers have 15 spells known, sorcery points, and recover 4 spell points after short rest at 20th level (long wait). The draconic side gets very useful abilities. The Wild side gets some interesting abilities, but if they roll a 1/20. I assume the idea is Sorcerers can use Spell points to regain spell slots. However, that would limit their Metamagic abilities. You wrote pointed out that this is due to sorcerers being prodigies. I would think for balance, they would increase spells known so the sorcerer would be on par with Warlocks and Wizards. Additionally, offer 4 sorcery point recovery at level 15. Then another 4 at level 20. |
| #12ScuroNotteDec 18, 2014 10:38:28 | Those additional 4 spell points at 15 th level would only be for wild sorcerer
Actually, I shouldn't be giving any recommendations until I understand the game/classes better |
| (Reply to #11)Ashrym | 20th level warlocks cast more than 20 spells per day as is on a typical day and all of those spell slots use higher level slots. The majority of other casters use lower level slots for lesser effect. Warlocks have the best recovery method and best at will abilities. Sorcerers have the best efficacy in the spells they cast. Wizards have the most versatility in the spells they have available. Bards have the most versatility in the spells they can select. That's the general arcane caster breakdown. "4 slots" doesn't look at the full picture for an adventuring day and is just a number without context. It's 4 slots 3 times plus 4 slots plus 4 arcanum plus boons plus invocations plus higher level at will spells. Sorcerers effectively have 28 sorcery points at 20th level. The versatility of the points is the can be more spells if needed or more oomph if needed and convert both ways, and metamagic is very effective. Both are very effective and required for the optimization builds, and both easy break fast adding more to them. Wizards also don't get half their level in slots. They get half their level in total spell levels worth of slots once with a maximum of 5th level slots and that works out to less than the 20th level warlock or sorcerer.
|
| (Reply to #13)ScuroNotte |
|