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| #1LittleleezardAug 07, 2014 6:58:41 | Hi there. I'm a long time dnd player/dm, so of course we got the 5e starter set and had at it. But our group is running into a very serious problem: every encounter either kills a player or TPKs the party.
It's not due to players being accustomed to 4e style play, or making bad tactical decision. the problem arises from monsters consistantly having Advantage.
We find that the goblins in the starter set will consistently kill/incapacitate whoever is the point man in marching order. The goblins have advantage as they are decent at stealth at the start of the encounter. player AC is very irrelevant when the goblin gets to roll twice and use the higher. 2 hits downs the tanky players. 1 hit can down squishy players. So 3 goblins can down 2 players fairly consistantly in a single volley.
The very first encounter, cleric and fighter are downed in the first round. Goblins get a bonus action to hide again. So whoever is left standing has to: A) [waste] their turn to search and pray hard they roll high on perception (waste because he has a 50/50 at even spotting one), or B) hide. Players can't dodge the always-stealthing goblins, as dodge only works against 'enemies you can see.'
Goblins able to re-hide every round force the team to 'search', but search only benefits the one player. and only if he rolls well. PC's cant dodge hidden foes. PC can only go prone to cancel out the ranged goblins advantage, and one of the goblin horde and stealth up and nail a prone PC. Goblins with advantage consistantly hit any AC, and their damage is high enough to down a PC in 1 or 2 hits.
We are finding that every encounter, whoever is in the fron/triggers the encounter dies or is incap before he has a turn, and it is almost impossible to go more than 1 encounter in an in-game day. If all the players get a bad initiative, it can TPK the party in 1 or 2 rounds.
Are we missing something that makes encounters with these 1/4 cr perma-stealthed goblins doable? |
| #2melloredAug 07, 2014 7:20:59 | Readied actions would certainly help.
"I shoot at the first goblin i see".
But that said, i don't think your really supposed to fight more then 1 encounter per day at level 1. |
| #3kanageddaamenAug 07, 2014 7:29:34 | You can only hide if you can't be seen, which means full cover. The problem with hiding rules in basic is that they are very vague. Do you need full cover to maintain hidden if you move? |
| #4ProletheusAug 07, 2014 7:33:32 |
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| #5iserithAug 07, 2014 9:33:24 |
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| #6LittleleezardAug 07, 2014 11:13:47 | The brush on the hills in the first encounter provides consealnent. Being small creatures, it makes sense to be that they could hide in the thicket without the need for cover. And I believe stealth is maintained so long as they have cover or concealment. Only the road didn't have concealment everywhere. |
| #7iserithAug 07, 2014 11:36:54 | You can rule that the brush on the hills has "concealment" (or in the case of 5e it's called "heavily obscured") but nothing in the adventure requires that be the case so far as I could tell. And the way it is presented in the bullet points leads me to believe that this is a simple transaction where the stakes are whether or not the PCs are surprised, not whether the goblins are hidden such that they get advantage on their first or subsequent attack rolls (plus surprise). You could rule it that way, if you wanted, but obviously you've seen the results firsthand. |
| #8kanageddaamenAug 07, 2014 13:04:46 |
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| (Reply to #8)Steeliie |
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| #10kanageddaamenAug 07, 2014 14:11:51 |
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| #11reddaemonAug 07, 2014 14:51:42 | I would run it the way Proletheus suggests. Also, all three goblins won't get super high stealth rolls every time. Eventually you will roll low enough that the PCs' passive perception will be able to spot them without needing to search. In addition, as others have said, readied actions help. "I ready to attack when the next goblin steps out to attack."
And lastly, if you are going to somehow suggest that the foliage is considered heavily obscured, then that means the goblins are blinded while they are in it as per the rules for obscured areas. Which only drives home the point that they need to expose themselves in order to attack, forfeiting any advantage they would have otherwise received. |
| #12DM_HEEGZAug 07, 2014 15:41:49 | sounds like stealth is being used incorrectly. also, 2 of the goblins should charge into melee and two stay back to shoot. the first encounter directs that they don't kill the PCs iirc. the cleric should focus on healing. the fighters can move and dodge as they close in. having one melee goblin between the archers and the PC gives the PC +2 AC. the wizard can cast sleep and take out the two archers, etc. |
| #13DyndrilliacAug 07, 2014 17:13:23 | One thing that made the encounter with the goblin ambush much easier for our party was one of our Wizards using Burning Hands to start a massive forest fire to flush the goblins out of the woods. Once they had nothing to hide behind for cover they were much easier to take down. |
| #14NoonAug 07, 2014 19:53:50 | I didn't notice stealth double dipped and got both a surprise round AND advantage. I've tweeted Mearls, asking if the goblins in Phandelver get both. |
| (Reply to #14)reddaemon |
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| #16LittleleezardAug 08, 2014 8:01:48 | Advantage comes from being hidden. The goblins get a bonus action to hide every round. |
| #17melloredAug 08, 2014 8:18:46 |
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| #18kanageddaamenAug 08, 2014 8:33:42 |
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| #19NoonAug 08, 2014 17:35:10 | I haven't seen any hard requirement on what can be hidden behind.
Which hand balls it to each DM to make the call.
If you were to run a survey alot of DM's probably would treat a bush as something to hide in (think of it in symetrical terms, players will try and hide in bushes and are you going to say no to them on that?). Never mind the tree trunks on the side of the road.
The goblins being seen as soon as they step out seems a classic DM short changing method. Hey, maybe that's how Mearls intended it (and didn't convey it in the text terribly well), I'm not saying it's definately not how you play, but it does seem like classic DM short changing.
I think it raises the question as to whether 'you get advantage if they can't see you' was for invisible characters and the occasional lucky chance of a distracted target. It wasn't really for just regular stealth (unless you have a very distracted target. Which some PC's guarding a cart aren't going to be)
Nothing from Mearls twitter feed as yet...
But it might come down to that advantage if for invisible attackers. Which to me, balance wise, makes alot more sense. |
| #20SaelornAug 08, 2014 18:06:21 | Just in general, when would you ever be able to gain Advantage when attacking while hidden? Because it sounds to me like, aside from Invisibility, you can never attack anyone without becoming visible before your attack. |
| #21DM_HEEGZAug 08, 2014 20:57:45 | You could hide and ready an action. |
| (Reply to #20)reddaemon |
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| #23kanageddaamenAug 09, 2014 5:52:25 |
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| #24LittleleezardAug 09, 2014 8:53:08 | If those are the cases, it seams 'hiding' is near impossible to use in combat, especially if you lose your stealth if you can see your target (as he can see you. This castrates stealth If you can only be hidden when neither you nor your prey can see eachother, there is no point to it. Only wood-elf and halfling can hide in combat...? that just seems silly to me. a Human rogue can't 'hide' up in a tree? or behind a 3/4cover wall? And if he draws line of sight to shoot, he loses stealth and advantage. Something seems wrong. Nor would a readied action work, as if you are stealthed, you cant see your target, so you cant really attack it off-turn regardless.
stealth needs some hard rulings. IE you need to be unseen to initiate stealth, but so long as you maintain 1/2 cover or concealment, you dont lose it agaisnt your target. |
| #25ProletheusAug 09, 2014 9:16:10 |
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| #26SaelornAug 09, 2014 12:37:21 | Oh, okay. So you do need some sort of gimmick (feat, spell, racial feature, etc) in order to get advantage when attacking out of stealth. Otherwise, it's just surprise? |
| (Reply to #26)reddaemon |
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| #28ProletheusAug 09, 2014 15:02:09 |
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| #29NoonAug 09, 2014 18:58:00 | I'm inclined to just have it for invisibility stuff, even as I tried out the behind the wall pop shot last night.
Still nothing from Meals. Everyone else feel free to tweet him on the matter as well. |
| (Reply to #26)Overpromises |
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| #31LittleleezardAug 09, 2014 22:35:59 | I am still concerened that, at this point, hiding cannot even give you surprise.With the exception of being in total darkness against normal-vision target or invis, if you can hide, that means you cannot see your target, nor can he see you. If you cant see him, even if you target him blind (from, say, total concealment) you gain disadvantage, which cancels out advantage.
Assuming this close reading of the rules (you cannot hide if you can be seen), stealth can only be used out-of-combat on unaware targets. Cause if you are spying on someone, they can technically see you to, thus nulifying stealth.
I'm not trying to 'break' rogue. Right now, stealth just seems utterly gimped by the above reading. "Scouting" doesnt even seem possible with strict reading of hiding rules.
I submit this houserule:
"To initiate hide, the creature(s) you are hiding frum must not be able to see or hear you. You maintain your hide as long as you make no sound (such as yelling or knocking over a vase) and continuously have concealment or cover from the creature(s). Attacking, making loud noises, or being spotted by the creature(s) perception (search) ends your hide. While hidden, you gain advantage against the target(s). If you attempt to dexterity (stealth) on the same turn in which you have attacked, you gain disadvantage on the roll to hide."
...would make things fair and enable player/monsters to briefly disengage (to break LoS), then sneak back into the fight. It would also prevent--or at elast make very difficult-- attacking and re-hiding in the same turn to try to spam being hidden. |
| (Reply to #31)Overpromises |
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| #33NoonAug 10, 2014 1:53:07 |
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| #34malisteenAug 10, 2014 7:20:14 | I agree that it still seems too narrow a reading of stealth. This reading makes normal scouting seem impossible to do - you can never sneak past a watching guard if it is even concievably possible for them to draw line of sight to you. The narrow reading makes sense in combat, where advantage is a big deal, but out of combat not so much. As it is, the more narrow reading is breaking out of combat stealth, while a more liberal ruling makes in combat stealth too powerful. There has to be a happy medium somewhere. |
| (Reply to #34)Overpromises |
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| #36malisteenAug 10, 2014 11:45:19 | You're already talking about the more strict reading, which imo is fine in combat.
but the idea that if you can peek through the bushes to spy on an enemy, then they automatically and instantly see and notice you is, imo, unacceptable for out of combat scouting. |
| (Reply to #36)Overpromises |
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| #38NoonAug 10, 2014 18:09:48 |
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| #39melloredAug 11, 2014 6:27:32 |
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| #40ProletheusAug 11, 2014 7:04:42 |
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| #41reddaemonAug 11, 2014 9:18:42 | Be a gnome. Use your minor illusion cantrip to create a 5 foot cube of fire imitating a Wall of Fire spell. Gain advantage on every attack because they can't see you. The only thing you need to gain advantage on your attack rolls is to be unseen. Stealth is not required at all. |
| (Reply to #41)Overpromises |
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| (Reply to #42)reddaemon |
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| (Reply to #43)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #45Caliburn101.Aug 12, 2014 2:47:52 | Really...
Why didn't the Ranger or Rogue or Druid etc. scout the damn cave entrance out in stealth and note the Goblins behind the thicket?
Then the party could have prepared an attack on the cavern system that didn't involve bumbling into an ambush.
Players deaths or TPKs in that encounter are carelessness, not innevitability.
The high numbers of 3rd and 4th ed. got players used to taking a first round of damage without any real risk. They have to get out of that lazy mindset now and always seek to have the upper hand in encounters at the start, and to minimise enemy advantage.
Scouting ahead is one solid method any one of those parties could have used - and knowing the Goblins were there would have negated Advantage.
I personally think it's GREAT that increased danger is now a prevalent factor, and that when you get caught with your pants down, you suffer, even to Goblins... |
| (Reply to #45)Chaosmancer |
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| #47RhennyAug 12, 2014 13:40:40 |
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| #48FantasyfilmsmanAug 12, 2014 15:46:34 | Plus why does the scout need to be on top of a party of Goblins. All a failed stealth roll indicates is the monsters know something is there not nessasarily line of sight. I've seen a lot of I failed my stealth roll and was immediately jumped by 6 Gobos and died rhetoric. First off most scouting stealth is done from a distance so if you are spotted you have the ability to get away. In Lost Mines most of the Goblins and creatures are not hiding so surprise is out of the question. Most things I hear about is because the DM is being harsh or doesn't have a grasp on distance. Just my two cents. Level 1 can be tough but I happen to agree that careful planning on the players and DM (they are there for that, it's not DM vs. players) can negate any kind of bad roll most not all, but most of the time. |
| #49NoonAug 12, 2014 19:40:48 |
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| #50NoonAug 13, 2014 18:24:07 |
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| #51ChaosmancerAug 13, 2014 19:43:00 |
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| #52PsikerlordAug 14, 2014 0:41:31 |
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| #53PsikerlordAug 14, 2014 0:46:56 |
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| #54PsikerlordAug 14, 2014 0:52:08 |
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| (Reply to #51)Fantasyfilmsman |
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| #56SorxoresAug 14, 2014 14:11:08 | How does your goblin hide as a bonus action? A rogue level 2 can do it using cunning action, but for everyone else (including goblin) it require an action.
You can only hide if you have total cover from the target (unless your a light foot hafling or a wood elf)
The goblin in that module are NOT rogues, they are simple goblins and they do not have special racial ability to hide like the wood elf.
So yes they will receive there ambushed attack if are caught by surprise (cleric should have a decent perception and not be surprise, a good scouting rogue propably got a good perception as well) so when the party approach the horse, they know something happened so they should roll a perception check (there passive give them a minimum result of 10+wis modifier) if they roll under then they find passivly wha tthey find. IF they roll higher then might find the goblins and not be surprised. |
| #57ORC_AnimusAug 15, 2014 15:08:33 | I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively. If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. |
| #58PolarisAug 15, 2014 11:02:47 |
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| #59NoonAug 15, 2014 16:02:24 |
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| (Reply to #59)Chaosmancer |
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| #61reddaemonAug 16, 2014 13:28:05 |
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| #62NoonAug 17, 2014 2:55:51 |
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| (Reply to #58)Sorxores |
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| #64Thalion94518Aug 17, 2014 9:37:47 |
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