Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Danny_Montanny Apr 15, 2015 7:42:28	So after reading the new Unearthed Arcana, the Ranger variant gave me an idea of a battlefield controller using the Rogue. They would use their skills in exploiting their enemies to cause some form of debilitating effect rather than extra damage.   Though I'm not going to get rid of Sneak Attack, cause it's definitely a bad idea, I thought about using it as a mechanic to fuel their tactics. With that in mind, balance is the issue. How much dice is worth giving up for what temporary (possibly pertinent) effects?   It would look something like: Underhanded Tactics You utilize the gaps in an opponent's defenses that allows for your deadly strikes to instead inflict a lingering effect. When you hit a target with an attack that you can apply your Sneak Attack to, you may instead forego 2d6 of the additional damage dice to impose one of the following effects on the target until the start of your next turn: Hamstring: the target's speed is reduced to 0. Go for the Eyes: the target is blind. Ring the Bell: the target is deaf and suffers a -2 penalty to AC. You could make stronger ones for foregoing more d6. I was thinking that the level 17 could be forego all of the dice to make the effect permanent. Permanently blinding an opponent at the start of a fight for "free" is pretty powerful, though.
#2 mellored Apr 15, 2015 7:47:54	I don't see a problem with permanate or semi-permanate (untill a long rest) penalites.  Though you probably want a saving throw.
(Reply to #2) HermanTheWize	mellored wrote:
#4 Danny_Montanny Apr 15, 2015 9:01:37	Agreed. Saving Throws were definitely on my radar, but wasn't sure if giving up the damage was enough of an offset. The fact the Rogue can do it an indefinite number of times, though with restrictions, calls for a little bit more balance that saving throws would provide. Another idea for balance would be to restrict each one to a certain damage type. Piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning in respect to the 3 presented so far.   The DC should definitely by STR or DEX, though. STR Rogues are perfectly viable and I wouldn't want to limit that.   With the main idea/mechanic fleshed out, let's brainstorm some additional ones.   I was thinking instead of a straight 2d6 swap, there could be a list of Dirty Tricks, each with their own cost. They'd start with access to 2 off the list, then gain more at appropriate levels. Basically Manuvers without Superiority. This would however require more work (lots more to balance), but would give added versitility/customization.
#5 mellored Apr 15, 2015 9:09:58	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#6 Danny_Montanny Apr 15, 2015 9:25:19	Declaring intent before the attack doesn't effect the mechanics at all. It only effects the way you make your descriptions in combat. I describe what happened after the effects of the actions are resolved because I feel it lets me be more descriptive on what I did.   The temporary effects are for balance as well as flavor. You can temporarily blind someone in a number of ways. Same goes with restricting movement. I want to leave the versitility of combat abstractions to the player's imagination, not restrict them to a specific set of "this is how you do this".
#7 mellored Apr 15, 2015 9:31:16	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #7) Danny_Montanny	mellored wrote:
#9 mellored Apr 15, 2015 10:48:29	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#10 mellored Apr 15, 2015 11:05:53	If you where going to have it a bonus, without modifiying the baseline, then yea after is fine.     Actually....  doing it as a bonus action might not be bad.   Dirty Fighting replaces Cunning Action. Blinding Strike: When you hit an enemy with an attack that deals sneak attack damage, you can spend your bonus action to attempt to blind them.  They make a Dex save, if they fail, they are blind until the next round.
#11 HermanTheWize Apr 15, 2015 11:54:56	I think bonus action to use it. This is a feature you're getting for free, so at worst there is no downside(IE you can just not use it and you're not weaker for having it). There should be a penalty to use it and I think bonus action and half damage on a sneak attack is correct.    Trading 2d6 sneak attack dice at lower sounds balanced, but at higher it just isn't fair anymore(2d6 at 10+ doesnt matter really.). The half damage will hurt you less at lower level and balance more at higher levels.   Done.
#12 HermanTheWize Apr 15, 2015 11:57:51	Also is this just a thing you want to have?  Or are you trying to make this an archetype?
#13 transcendantviewer Apr 15, 2015 12:27:36	Personally, I think these attack features should avoid giving conditions. Specifically because if the target fails its save against the blinding, it's blind for anywhere from a few rounds to the rest of its life and once something goes blind, the rogue that just took away the sunrise for it can sneak attack it all the way here to the Abyss.
#14 Danny_Montanny Apr 15, 2015 14:47:05	The intent is to create a new archetype. A Rogue that uses his advantage to debilitate his foes, not just cause "damage". It could be for tactical reasons or just because he down right fights dirty. What's been presented so far is to get the base mechanic of his dirty fighting tricks fleshed out.
#15 SeamusTheBard Apr 30, 2015 19:31:42	I used a similar effect on my Swashbuckler archetype. http://collegeoflore.com/swashbuckler/ Feel free to steal ideas from it.
(Reply to #14) transcendantviewer	Danny_Montanny wrote:
#17 Danny_Montanny May 01, 2015 5:59:50	Ok. So we seem to be stuck on one single tactic; blinding. This isn't the sole concept of the class. I only listed 3 ideas of what could be achieved. Surely we can come up with some more. If it's a balance issue, put a level restriction on certain tactics.   Here's what I'm thinking: Change it to declare before attack. Instead of half damage, half number of total SA dice (rounded up) given up. Saving throws for target, followed by additional Con save at the start of their turn to end effect. Make a list, with level and weapon requirements for the dirty tricks. They know 3 at 3rd, gain additional ones at 9 and 17. That way the stronger ones won't be learned until later. I was thinking of making some of the tricks require a bludgeoning weapon, but as you can't sneak attack with any, I was going to make it a bonus feature at 3rd to add the club as a weapon you can SA with. You'd still have to use your Str to hit and damage, but it'll open up the class a bit.   With those changes in mind for the base mechanic, I was thinking these for the other features: 9th: Advantage on Sleight of Hand and Deception checks due to how underhanded you are. 13th: Targets have disadvantage against your Dirty Trick attack saves (not the additional Con saves).  17: Forego all of your SA dice to make the DT effect last until a long rest. After they finish the rest they get one Con save to shrug it off or it's permanent.
(Reply to #17) transcendantviewer	Danny_Montanny wrote:
(Reply to #18) Danny_Montanny	transcendantviewer wrote:
#20 transcendantviewer May 02, 2015 1:42:32	I don't know, I don't really like the thought of making it permanent, especially since it's not magic. I mean, you'd really have to do something terrible to someone's body to permanently blind them, and you'd pretty much need to sever the tendons in several places to permanently cripple someone's ability to walk. And not only that, but these save DCs are tied to the Rogue's Primary Ability Score, imposing Disadvantage is just insult to injury (Pun intended). I'm open to other alternatives, but it doesn't seem to me like there are too many options. Now, I'll admit, a rogue's job is to hit where it hurts, and this class path does definitely suit that philosophy, but one or two good stabs and you just turned the Tarrasque into a screeching, hungry rock. It's the fact that it's not just potent, but repeatable and effective. Even with it's Legendary Resistance, The Tarrasque can't succeed every save.