I've been told that this has been a topic of heated discussion and debated to the point of beating a dead horse, so bear with me here and please be civil. lol
okay, here goes...........takes a deep breath and looks around for tomato throwers...
I think the 5e stats for a katana should be as follows and I will provide my rationale:
Katana 1d8 slashing (light, finesse, versatile 1d10 when used two handed)
I realize this is a bit unbalanced against the current longsword, scimitar, and rapier options, but I feel the katana should be classified as:
1) a light weapon - katanas weigh between 1.1 and 1.3 kg, making them fall in between the 2lb scimitar and 3lb rapier, both of which are light weapons.
2) a finessable weapon - Its most certainly looks like a finessable weapon in how its used, can be wielded with one hand, and is highly regarded as a dueling sword.
3) versatile - weapon can be, and usually is, used two handed for more power. For those not using a shield and choosing to use a katana two handed, the damage die should be 1d10 imo (just like the longsword)
And finally... In 3.5, a katana was considered a reflavored bastard sword (d10), so I feel a base damage of 1d8 is both reasonable, justified, and puts it on par with a longsword.
I apologize in advance if this has been already answered or given stats by the powers that be, but I've only read opinions and debate on the topic. Would love to hear comments both in favor and against.
Stopping being a Japanophile about it, which even prior editions of D&D fell victim to being.
A katana is just another sword and should be treated as such, with each variety of sword that people refer to as a katana but are actually various different types of sword matching to each of the already existant D&D sword stat-lines of dagger, shortsword, scimitar, longsword, and greatsword.
And no, outside of anime, a katana is not much of a finesse weapon - at least no more than the typical arming sword is - which is obvious if you compare footage of fencing competitions to footage of kendo competitions.
Edit: Forgot to add that the DMG has a relevant list of weapons on page 41 that lists katana as being a longsword.
And it should be able to cut a tank in half from forty paces, but the armor only breaks in half after you sheathe it, am I right?
No, of course not.
The katana is just a longsword. DMG page 41. That means 1d8, versatile 1d10, slashing. That's it.
Angel7 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Not sure if this is a bait topic or not. But here goes: (presuming pre-trade Japan that only had access to pig iron)
1.) Katanas are not light. At least not compared other swords of the time. They tended to be heavy (comparitively).
2.) A katana was not/is not a "finesse" weapon. That's just not how that are used.
Or, you can just say it's a longsword, becuase that's esentially what they are/were.
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as MasterworkNow that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.
Man I've been thinking the wizards forum has been kind of backwards and mean lately, but I'm really proud of the responses to this thread they're all excellent responses to the topic. I have nothing else to add but that if you want to play an anime character dnd isn't really the best system for it and you might want to look into other gaming systems.
Weedeater wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Angel7 wrote:
Angel7 wrote:
This makes me miss 3E when we had expanded crit ranges and critical multipliers, allowing for different weapon stats. Or 4E where we had proficiency bonuses. In 3E, my table's katana was a bastard sword version of the scimitar, because we liked the scimitar's expanded crit range for modeling the perceived difference between curved single-edge blades over straight blades; lower damage die, higher critical threat range.
Mechanically, though, I don't think the game would be broken with a 1d10 finessable two-handed weapon; it's just not light (no dual wielding right off the bat). I don't think "finesse" makes a weapon more powerful persay, but we have a precident of no finessable two-handers. "Light", though, does make a weapon weaker.
I need to dust off my old weapon calculator.
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
FunkySpunk wrote:
The "folded a thousand times," likely comes from it being folded 10-20 times which would create a LOT of layers. Just ten folds is 1,024 layers.
Also, the Vikings did not invent lamenated steel forging. Vikind Age dates to 790s CE. Piled (lamenated) steel dates to 1200 BCE or earlier.
FunkySpunk wrote:
I say, do whatever is fun for you, even if it's not realistic or agreed by others. As long as you and your group have fun despite any faults, that's what's important. By the way, I believe that the Wakizashi and Katana from 3.5 both cost over 300 gold, so they may as well be a "magic item" in 5e, meaning the extra properties are fine.
In 3.5 they were both masterwork items, hence the large price tag, Masterwork isn't a thing anymore. Though I suppose you couls just call them masterwork and give then some properties that are "magic".
Were katanas normally used one-handed? The wakizashi, yes, but katanas? These questions are a bit rhetorical, of course.
My recollection is the katanas are two-handed weapons. It was Miyamoto Musashi who developed the katana+wakizashi technique, but it was the exception, not the rule.
FunkySpunk wrote:
Katanas are esseantially two-handed weapon that could be wielded with one hand if need arises.
They are definitely not light nor they are finesse. I handeled a few and I could tell because of the way they were forged, they have thick blades and that makes them very "blade heavy".
They felt more lika a machete than a "true" sword. And somewhat short for their weight. European longsword is about 6in longer for the same weight and feels lighter due to center of mass being closer to the hilt.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Here was the video about the Viking Ulfberht swords.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM
They were made using metal imported from Persia. The forging technique is similar to the furnaces used for the katanas. They were designed to punch through chainmail armor so theyare not shaarp as such but can still cleave the bundled mats people use katanas on to show how sharp they are.
I've never touched a European sword, but I've handled/owned katana and practiced kendo.
As to two-handed-ness:
Agreed that katana are seriously top-heavy. I have a blunt katana/wakizashi pair that are meant for kendo practice and kata, and their center of gravity is smack in the middle of the sword. I've owned less "fake" swords, and they're just slightly better. Shinai used in kendo are basically bamboo sticks, resembling a D&D quarterstaff more than anything. You need that second hand on the hilt to get it where you want it to go, and to stop it when it gets there (or else overextend and not be able to defend yourself). You can't get leverage on the thing otherwise. You can dual-wield in kendo, but it's mostly about using the shorter sword to get the opponent's one weapon out of the damn way, so your gimped main hand can score a hit. It's also really hard, hence why it's a feat in 5e.
With a katana, you don't use it to cleave, you use it to slice. The difference between bringing your knife over your head to slam it into your steak, and drawing the knife across it. Katana are curved and work much better for the latter. If you've seen demonstrations of cutting watermelon or bamboo in half with a katana, that's probably the technique you saw. Doing this in a single "slash" motion requires a particular method and angle, which is much harder to achieve with one hand. I'd be tempted to say that a katana in one hand is even worse than an arming or bastard sword. One-handed katana techniques, like iai-do, generally have all the martial application of tai chi.
As to Finesse:
I've never trained to be a footsoldier, but I know kendo is not saber fencing. First, you wear the equivalent of D&D medium armor. You're not laden with pots and pans, but it's restrictive. On top of that, you're swinging a top-heavy stick around with two hands. You don't generally fwip-fwap your way to victory in a couple lightning-quick moves. You practice particular swings that put your sword into the action as fast as possible, then yank it back into position to defend again. Speed helps, as it does in any martial art, but leaving aside the vague notion of "skill" that 5e handles with proficiency bonuses, kendo is not a game of sleight of hand. It's not something you succeed at with just agility and no raw strength. And remember, that's what Finesse means: equally effective at 8 Strength as at 18.
Of course, kendo is a sport, not mortal combat. It's about discipline and skill. You can only score points is certain ways, so you only practice certain kinds of swings. But if we assume that kendo (and kendo equipment) are anything like using a katana in war, nothing about it is a "Finesse" affair.
THAT SAID, I think you could make an argument for a katana being Finesse; but, only when wielded with both hands. As mentioned above, it slices like nothin', not as a magical property of the amazing metal or whatever, but due to its shape. Maneuver it right and the sword does most of the work for you. (You can shear loose paper in half if you do it right, like so. Have to hit the grain of the paper, but you don't need the mystical katana to do it. I knew a guy who made knives for ren fair who could do the same thing.) The same argument works for a scythe. But this generally assumes you only make wide, sweeping attacks against fleshy enemies. I'd probably handwave that in a middle-to-high-fantasy game, myself. May also be an appropriate feat or fighting style. It's slightly more fanciful (or situational; only against unarmored enemies, say, or when you beat the enemy's AC by X) than "gritty realistic" combat, but there is a basis in reality.
I know I'm stirring a hornetsnest here, but historically the katana did have amazing cutting power. Although mostly against unarmored targets. There are historical accounts of Japanese soldiers cutting unarmored natives clean in two, and then once more in fours. The VOC occasionally hired Japanese soldiers specifically for the purpose of slaughtering the natives of what ever island they wanted to capture for its valuable spices, and they were quite ruthless about it. They relied on the psychological effect of the katana's cutting power. But its hard to translate the specifics of the katana into consistent game rules. Its true that katanas were made from steel of inferior quality, since medieval Europe already had blast furnaces around the same time. If you wanted to translate this some what accurately, the katana would have a lower hardness than other longswords, and would break more easily. But I would probably not give it more damage than other swords. Because DnD doesn't really factor armor piercing power of various swords into the combat. If the game was totally realistic, most swords would hardly make a dent against a full plate, and you'd need a heavy blunt weapon to do any damage at all. But DnD translates armor into chance to hit, which is of course not the only thing armor in real life does. Thick padded armor would probably do wel against cutting weapons, such as the katana, but less so against piercing weapons such as a rapier. DnD also doesn't take the length of various swords into account. A katana would need some room to swing it, where as a rapier or a Gladius could be used in close quarters.Then there is the problem of studded leather, which is an armor type that never really existed at all. It's really just a gigantic mess, and I don't think you'll ever find a way to accurately represent the attributes of any sword or armor within the DnD rules.
It is better to keep the rules simple. Just consider the katana no different than a longsword.
The arming sword is actually a one handed weapon that can't be effectively wielded in two hands. the dungeons and dragons longsword is more similar to what we today call the longsword (longswords, knights swords and bastard swords are essentially the same thing.)
The longsword is an effective sidearm usually wielded in two hands that can be used in a single hand if required.
Katanas fill pretty much the same niche as longswords and are about the same in terms of effectiveness (they handle differently but not so much so that they require different stats) so i would suggest using the stats for a longsword as stated in the DMG.
if you guys want any more information about swords i suggest searching for scholagladiatoria on youtube, there are some really good videos on this topic on that channel including a series of videos on the katana and how it compares to european swords.
btw sorry about my grammar im really tired at the moment.
I ran into a similar problem when I started working on my pirate campaign. 3.5 doesn't have firearms, so we had to go through a lot of old dragon magazines, and come up with house rules that made sense within the DnD system. So we agreed what the range of an average canon would be within the DnD rules (500 feet), which is shorter than in real life. But that has everything to do with how naval combat works according to the 3.5 rules. And then there was the ancient Chinese Triple Siege Crossbow. An awesome weapon, requiring 10 men to operate it, and that is rumored to reach a range of up to 1,160 yards! (Which would be around a mile)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydJqd5hiRkE#t=17m50s
This would mean that the triple crossbow would shoot far beyond the range of any cannon. So for the sake of the rules, we had to bring it down a little. Cannons have a range of up to 500 ft. Catapults and ballistas reach between 120 and 150 feet. So we brought the triple crossbow down to about 530 feet, but we also reduced the amount of men needed to operate it, from 10 to 6. This means that the weapon can shoot at approaching ships before they can fire back, but the firepower is not as great as that of a cannon. Plus you need 6 men to arm it over the course of 7 rounds.
Often you need to sacrifice realism, for the purpose of game balance.
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
It's satire, guys. The hyperbole gives it away, though you can verify some of the information with simple googling (for instance, the million-folds is a myth; a million layers occurs with 20 folds, which is usually the sign of a poor katana).
Xeviat's signature is pure wisdom, peeps. Look it up.
Imaculata wrote:
Katana thread on a D&D forum. Searches for Katana copy pasta. Yep it's there. Every time lol.
google "Katana copypasta" if you don't get it...
I'm with the hip new crowd who thinks that a katana should have the same stats as longsword.
Although I always like to think that every time there is a thread about the katana on a English language forum - there is an equal and opposite thread instantly created on a Japanese-language forum about how powerful the bayonet was and how tanks had to be invented to fight them.
IF AND ONLY IF you and your friends really must have a finesse katana, then use the rapier stats and change piercing damage to slashing.
(It makes very little difference as an earlier thread of mine pointed out: http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4191681 )
I agree with others about the Katana. There is little different about it over other well made swords. It is indeed a wonderful blade IF created by a mastercrafter. Crap copies flooded Japan when it was unified in the late 1600's.
The ONLY specific dscription I would give one is making is slashing only and house ruling mastercraft bonus (seeing 5e dropped mastercraft). Perhaps give it advantage against breaking as well.
The weapon evolved into a slashing weapon specifically to allow mounted attacks without it breaking. That demand was laid specifically upon the first weaponsmith who came up with it's initial contruction method ... which later was perfected even more (styles held secret because they initally were made ONLY for the shogunate as they were funded entirely through them for their Samurai) . The combat style on foot evolved around it's shape too along with the Samurai's offense over defense. A Katana made by a master smith was indeed an amazing weapon but it was equally matched in western cultures and around the world (at differing and even earlier times. Earliest possibly in India with Damascus Steel making surperior swords centuries ahead of Japan).
Point is, a well made weapon is entirely dependent upon who makes it and the methods they have mastered. The Katana itself is not some mystical weapon. A crap Katana is a crap sword like any other poorly made sword. A master work sword of any kind is an equal (other than specific application) is a match for a masterwork Katana.
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Katanas can be represented as longsword in 5e, but if you want something different:
Exotic* Melee Weapon
Katana ----- 100 gp ----- 1d8 slashing ----- 3 lb ----- finesse, versatle (1d10)
*Exotic: you need the feat "weapon master (katana)" to gain proficiency with it.
It can be overpower since there is no weapon in game with both finesse and versatle. In this case be sure to readjust the values.
robneto wrote:
2d4 versatile 1d8 finessible slashing
4d20 finesse, light, expanded crit, versatile (900d20 (that's an average of OVER 9000!)), slashing, deals an additional 1/2 damage every round on a crit, and can fight for itself, no character needed.
I think that's appropriate, no?
Yunru wrote:
Lord_Ventnor wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
I care more about the legend of the Katana than the history. And a finessible versatile weapon would be cool to add to the game. I really liked the PF Elven Curve Blade.
I'm not really sure that the "finesse" quality necessitates a reduction in damage. The rapier in one hand is the same as a longsword in one hand, and the longsword in two hands is weaker than a greatsword in two hands. We don't have a finesse two-hander, but what would be the downsides?
A finesse one-hander with a shield does the same damage as a strength one-hander with a shield, and they have the same AC (assuming the same armor or optimized armor). So why should the great-weapon wielders be out of the equasion? Who are you worried about having the finesse two-hander, really? The rogue? They won't be proficient without jumping through a hoop, and they're better off fighting with two weapons for two sneak attack chances. Are you worried about the higher reflex saves and initiative? A low strength can mess you up too, though a high dex will protect you from more damage. If strength is too low, you'll lose AC or speed with heavy armor.
Ignore realism for a second. Is it at all believable that a curved sword could be used with finesse as opposed to a straight sword? The scimitar was made light to aid in dual wielding in this edition. It wasn't finesse in 3E. Finesse was a function of class abilities in 4E.
The fiction has many believing that katanas are weapons of finesse, thus, the game should reflect that. The question is then is it appropriate to have a finesse two-hander? I don't think it hurts anything; again, a finesse one-hander is equivalent to a strength one-hander, so why not the two-handers?
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Jordan175 wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Best blade in the world would be hard to consider but something like the 1798 British Napoleonic War cavalry sabre made out of a modern steel or Damascus/Toledo steel would probably be up there.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
And! What the heck am I doing, fogetting to compare the Greatsword with GWFing to duel shortswords with TWFing! I've already shown in a previous thread that they're very close, with TWFing eeking out a narrow victory at low levels but keeping up just slightly behind at higher levels with the fighter if magic weapons are allowed. TWFing comes with the same inherent drawbacks of GWFing. As a str wielder can TWF as easily as a dex wielder, I again argue that the dex wielder should be able to GWF as easily as a str wielder.
well, here's what I understand.
1. In parts of the UK, a generic katana is illegal, but the real deal that costs lots of money is legal to own, because it is believed that anyone with that much money and time to process the paper work is unlikely to run around hacking at people with a sword.
2. japanese samurai swords come in different qualities. Some can cut multiple bodies in half with one swing. Some can barely dent sheet metal.
3. A good katana can take one hit from a bullet, cut it in half, and snap on the second. A cheap katana snaps on the first bullet. A great katana can take half a dozen hits from a bullet backed by over 10,000 ft lbs of energy.
4. A katana of mediocre quality compared to a long sword of mediocre quality was able to cut deeper through plate mail, deaper through leather, and split an iceblock in half. The long sword was able to chip, but not split the iceblock.
5. The katana is not wielded the same way as a regular long sword. It bends less and has a higher temper. It is curved so that parrying with it is less likely to break the rigid steel.
6. getting your hands on a real katana is highly unlikely. Thousands of fake katanas are sold in Japan at tourist traps for around 2000-3000 yen. The paper work process almost demands you live in Japan for several months before you can get the real deal, which can set you back the price of a car.
Making it a finesse weapon is reasonable.
Having it do abnormal damage is reasonable, if it is very expensive.
Having it be one or two handed is reasonable.
so lets say cheap: 1d6/1d8 1/2 hand, Common, 50 gold, sold at novelty shops
2 body blade 1d8/1d10, Uncommon, 500 gold, level 3 Swordsmith or a Background Trait
3 body blade 1d10/1d12, Rare, 5,000 gold, level 6 Swordsmith, or a Feat "Family Heirloom"
4 body blade 1d12/2d6, Very Rare, 50,000 gold, level 11 Swordsmith
5 body blade 2d6/2d8, Legendary 500,000 gold, level 17 Swordsmith
I think this is a balanced, historical approach.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
shintashi wrote:
This thread is very inspiring. I was sorting out equipment for a 3rd edition zombie campaign, that a friend of mine (first time DM) wants to start. I went through the excellent OGL Horror book by Mongoose publishing. The book has excellent equipment lists for any modern day campaign... but what do my eyes spy!
Longsword deals 1d8, but katana deals 1d10. Screw that! I immediately changed that to 1d8 as well.
But I wanted the rules to still represent the amazing cutting power of a katana, so I changed it to:
Katana, damage: 1d8, crit: 18-20, exotic weapon
In my adjusted rules the katana does the same damage as a longsword, but it has a higher change for crits (to reflect how sharp it is). I assume that in a modern day campaign the thing would be made from modern steel, so I didn't take the fragility of a historical katana into account. The exotic weapon proficiency is enough of a requirement already to justify the increased crit chance I think. What do you folks think, does this make sense given all what we've discussed in this topic?
Imaculata wrote:
AdrastusDarke wrote:
I guess I could add an exception, that the katana has a -4 penalty to resisting sunder attempts. Would that perhaps reflect the fragility of such a thin blade more accurately? Because clearly the advantage of a longsword would be that you can use it to block another blade. Maybe I'm overthinking this. DnD doesn't really take the actual qualities of different swords into account.
Macv12 wrote:
Imaculata wrote:
shintashi wrote:
Captain_Kobold wrote:
Yes, a katana could cut a body in half...when attached to a long pole and swung at corpse held stationry as a test of the blades durability.
Also, a sword made using madern steel is basically magic compared to swords of antiquity.
What would be an acceptable Feat ?
"Katana" Feat (as applied to Long Sword)
+1 AC like Dual Weilder
d12 damage if 2Handed (or up 1 die on any other Versatile, like Staff would go d10)
History check prof and = Intimidate, provided target speaks same language
and you can select 1 thingie on each of the item cheap soup up tables in the DMG
craft in said goodies as a Common non-consumable, at normal price, even without being a caster 3rd level
My advice is define the Katana as a way that fits your setting. If not as a weapon then as an archetype. "In the hands of a Samurai" the Katana is the most powerful sword ever made. Okay build a Samurai Warrior or Kensai that can do cool things with the Katana. Personally I like the Katana and Elven Curved Blade as 1d8 Versatile 2d4, finesse. But if those are too powerful and you don't like that, build a cool Archetype that does cool things that fit all those Kung-Fu and Ninja movies if that is what does it for you. Build the game you and your players want to play.
arnwolf666 wrote:
Thanks a lot Captain Kobold for your feedback, that is very useful. And yeah, I am probably overthinking it. 
Also, thanks AdrastusDarke, great to get so much solid feedback.
Imaculata wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
A Katana is really just a longsword. Though I agree, it would make certain builds easier if it was Finesseable. But I don't think that should be an innate property of the blade itself. It would be better as a feat.
Samurai Warrior
Prerequisite: DEX 15, longsword Proficiency
You gain the following benefits:
- Your Dexterity score increases by 1
- You may treat the Longsword as if it had the Finesse Property.
- The Longsword becomes a Monk weapon for you (If applicable).
I think I really like that feat.
arnwolf666 wrote: