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| #1ZardnaarMay 29, 2015 18:25:43 |
The following is a guide on what I feel like is the best bladelocks in the game and probably one of the best gish in the game. This is from actual observation forma real game and not based on theory crafting and includes some tricks and tips a DPR calculation can not account for. This is also based on my problems I think gish have and off the Peoples Thoughts on Warlock Thread which is located here.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4218111
And my problems I think gish in general have in 5E.
http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4219816
And by gish I mean an arcane based caster who uses weapons and spells together. This means Paladins, Rangers and Clerics do not count as such although they are good at divine based spells doing their own thing. The Paladin is also a good baseline IMHO as if your gish is not as roughly as effective as a Paladin you may as well play one of those instead as the game will punish you less for doing so and the Paladin is a great class IMHO and personally I rate it ahead of the fighter and Ranger for example.
All of the problems gish have are magnified with the bladelock. The bladepact for example only applies to melee weapons and you are not proficient in constitution saves, medium or heavy armor or shields. This means you are stuck in light armor and probably want to use a two handed melee weapon with a pants AC. You also want to have a decent strength, con and cha score which leaves not much left over with the default array to pump dexterity. This means you might have 12 dexterity if you are lucky and use the mage armor invocation to get an AC of around 14. A Mountain Dwarf may be a decent choice to get AC in the 17 range using the default array. I would go that way if you have your heart set on a Bladelock where feats and/or multiclassing are not allowed. Rolling scores is also an option as if you can roll an 18 dexterity and some other decent stats the sinlgel classed bladelock starts to look a lot better along with several other classes and the gish concept in general.
The better way I believe is the fighter dip level and by that I mean start as a fighter and multiclass out at level 2 so you are fighter 1/warlock XYZ. This is for 3 main reasons. 1. Proficiency in heavy armour and shields 2. Proficiency in con saves and strength saves (both better than charisma and wisdom) 3. A fighting style.
You also get a weak second wind and some other options such as going with sword and board. With the default array I would assign the stats something like this. Str 15 Con 14 Dexterity 10 Intelligence 8 Wisdom 12 Cha 13
And I would probably play a half elf or variant human. Rolled stats the issue becomes a lot less clear cut and even a default human can look attractive as one of my players rolled a valor bard with an 11,13,13,13,15,17 for stats and things like Dwarves start to look good as a bladelock.
Once you have reached this stage there are also several other things to consider. What patron to have for example and what invocations do you want. Also party composition and the size of the party should be factored in. For example.
1. Is there a Bard in the party? 2. Is there a PC who can cast bless and keep it up? 3. Is there a shield master expert who can knock stuff prone for you? 4. What other spellcasters are in the party?
The more yes you get to these questions makes the great weapon master or polearm master feat look more attractive. If you have none of that available the Great Weapon Master feat is probably better off replaced by Polearm Master or Sentinel. Party composition also matters as at level 7 a Sorcerer for example can twin a greater invisibility spell and put it on you so the Archfey patron may not be the best choice. Greater invisibility being one of those spells which are magnificent for you. For simplicities sake I am going to argue the best option is the fiend pact bladelock due to the dark one’s blessing class ability.
One may also want to consider how likely it is you want to be able to cast hex. This is because you may be using the bonus action granted by the Polearm Master or Great Weapon Master feat to do other things such as attack or you may have other spells you wish to concentrate on. Personally I am getting away from large damage builds in favour of moderate damage and versatility. If you want to use hex I suggest taking the sentinel feat instead and you can go the duellist or great weapon fighting styles. I would also chose to use hex if you had someone else in the party with the shield master feat as you can give any target of theirs disadvantage on their athletics checks to avoid being knocked over. Party synergy is better than individual DPR IMHO.
You might also want to use a shield if your party lacks a healer or if the parties healer is more concerned about healing himself as opposed to you. Unlike some of the other gish builds this Bladelock is not that concerned about the warcaster feat although it still helps. In addition to hex I would be looking at Armor of Agathys (AoA) to use at low levels and Fire Shield replacing it later on. AoA does have cute interaction with effects that reduce damage such as the Heavy Armor Master (HAM) feat and Stoneskin for example. The HAM feat can also buff concentration rolls. I have seen a simple 10 point AoA spell deal 30 points of damage before being depleted as vulnerability to cold can suck for NPCs at times. The way AoA works is you get the hp in total as temporary hit points but the amount of damage an NPC takes is a fixed amount so you can make your spell last longer and deal more damage by taking things that reduce damage. By thinking outside the box you can get your damage up and still remain competitive with great weapon/polearm master users and still gain the other benefits of HAM/Sentinel feats. Also consider the way the Sentinel feat interacts with AoA- give me an extra attack or attack me anyway take some damage and deplete my temporary hit points I can get back with another AoA spell or dark ones blessing. Sentinel + Polearm AMster is also not a bad feat to take.
The other thing to consider is the way spells scale for a warlock as you should will always be casting them in a higher level slot. For example hex when used in a 3rd level slot (level 6 with the fighter dip) now lasts for 8 hours. This means if concentration is not broken it will still be going after you complete a short rest so you get hex+ our spell slots back. Hell you can short rest at breakfast time if you want to get an extra spell slot for the day AoA also turns into 15 bonus hit points or 30 if you cast it twice and if they get depleted you always have temporary hit points via Dark Ones Blessing to fall back on. This lets you tank better than a pure fighter in most cases and until level 11 you will be out damaging the fighter as well due to hex.
Speaking of fighters in 5E a traditional melee PC gets hosed at ranged combat due to the RAW work with drawing a weapon. 3 or 4 attacks a round at level 11 (or 7 attacks a round even with action surge) do not matter if a fighter has to lob spears as they are reduced to lobbing a single spear/dagger or whatever per turn or pulling out a bow (a situation where dex based fighters are barely penalized). The bladelock has the option of still using eldritch blast+hex+agonising blast for situations like this or even lobbing a fireball as armor of agathys does tend to become a bit obsolete after a while as fireshield can start to look attractive as well. Even with a melee focus I think I would still take agonizing blast as a bladelock and the only other invocation you really need is bladethirst. The fighter dip lets you have a decent cha, str and con score. By level 12 you can add chrisma to damage so when the fighter gets 3 attacks a round you will get 2 attacks at 3d6+strength+charisma or 1d8+1d62+stength+charisma which will not be that far behind in terms of damage with better defences, spells, versatility hit points and ranged attack options. You have more options while still having a respectable damage.
Unlike the fighter you will also eventually get the ability to cast foresight on yourself at level 18. This grants you advantage on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks and enemies get disadvantage to hit you. If you have gone down the polarmarm master/great weapon fighting track you can easily add +10 damage to all attacks and in effect get +4 or 5 to AC over the fighter. You also have 4 5th level spell slots per short rest. Shield Master Bladelocks would also have the option of using repelling blasts and shield bashes to push NPCs into zone effects (such as Hunger of Hadar) you can create. Congratulations you probably just won D&D obsoleted the Paladin, Ranger, Champion, Eldritch Knight, and Battlemaster Fighter while being outright better in every category that matters (AC, hit points, ranged attacks, damage, versatility etc). The best part is this Bladelock is playable from level 1 only being slightly weak at level 2 and maybe 5 depending on how your DM rules the requirements for bladethirst. |
| #2FunkySpunkMay 29, 2015 21:31:30 | Nice write up!
I really like the Fiend Patron for Bladelocks. Dark Ones Blessing is great for a melee character, and I like to think this allows you to not worry about a healer quite as much. It also gives you the freedom to go for a weapon that does as much, or more damage than an Eldritch Blast (which, personally, if EB is doing more than my pact weapon, I will find myself questioning why I went Pact of the Blade).
Starting with one level of Fighter is optimal. I agree that Half Elf or Variant Human are the best choices. With point buy, a Half Elf can start at 16/10/14/8/12/16.
If you're required to be single class, I would almost insist on playing a Mountain Dwarf. In this case, I'd start with 16/12/16/8/10/14.
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| #3ZardnaarMay 30, 2015 3:49:28 | You get versatility with the bladelock. You can go melee and ranged and melee has better feat support than Eldritch blast. Single classed I think I ouwld just play a Paladin, Valor Bard or Cleric instead save yourself some grief. |
| #4jaappletonMay 30, 2015 5:21:59 | It's funny when the Paladin is the best gish. |
| #5AaronOfBarbariaMay 30, 2015 12:51:04 | Why not favor your physical ability scores over mental scores, even charisma, and select spells like armor of agathys that aren't harshly affected by a lower charisma?
Seems to me like Dexterity becomes more important than Charisma the instant you decide to close into melee range. |
| #6jaappletonMay 30, 2015 13:07:42 | Aaron, I see your suggestion. Play it like how the Eldritch Archer guide suggests: Take instantaneous spells that just 'happen', not ones that rely on your spellcasting stat. I like it. |
| #7XhaosdaemonMay 30, 2015 13:46:41 | I have a online GM who is willing to allow Charisma to be the applicable stat for pact blades and a starting level of 4. With that I came up with the concept of a variant human Rogue 1/Warlock 3. I know fighter is one of the optimal level dips but let me explain. Taking rogue gives you access to Sneak Attack, 4 skills, expertise in 2 skills, and the ability to use a rapier. Using the bonus human feat and the level 4 attribute adjustment you take Dual-Weapon Wielder and Warcaster. Warcaster is nice because it gives you advantage on Constitution saves for concentration. The dual-weapon wielder feat allows you to use 2 rapiers, one of which is your pact blade. With a Dex of 16 and Cha of 16 that is +3 to hit with both the pact blade and off hand and +3 to damage with the pact blade. The Dex of 16 plus the dual-weapon wielder feat with studded leather armor gives you an AC of 16. Using expertise for Stealth gives you a +7 on stealth checks and take the other expertise on Thieves' Tools so you can do the thiefly disarm traps/open locks thing.
So if I did my adding of effects correctly this is what you have on attacking from hiding with Hex active: Pact blade rapier at +5 to hit doing 1d8+1d6+1d6+3 damage and off hand rapier at +5 to hit doing 1d8+1d6 damage (no ability bonus....boo! lol). That gives a range of 8-37 damage or an average of 22.5 damage. This doesn't take into account the chance of a critical with each weapon because you are attacking with advantage. Having Armor of Agathys up as a level 2 slot gives you the 10 temporary hit points and does 10 cold damage to your target if it hits you back. Combine this with Life Drinker and Thirsting Blade at level 12 (plus bringing Cha up to 18) and you will be doing two attacks with your pact rapier at +7 for 1d8+1d6+1d6+4+4/1d8+1d6+4+4 and your off hand rapier at +7 for 1d8+1d6. That gives a range of 23-64 or an average of 43.5 damage, not including possible crits. Add 2 more levels of Rogue and take assassin and you can nova at the start of a battle (due to the auto-crit on hits) for 2d8+4d6+2d6+4+4/2d8+2d6+4+4 with the pact rapier and 2d8+2d6 with the off hand rapier. That is a range of 32-124 or an average of 78 damage. This also doesn't take into account any damage bonuses for magic weapons one may well have at Rogue 1/Warlock 12 or Rogue 3/Warlock 12.
I know the fighter builds can do more damage but with the stealth abilities this build gives and the rogue skills it has the potential to be a lot of fun, especially with the right invocations to support the sneaky attack style (In addition to Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, Lifedrinker, and Thirsting Blade you can grab One with Shadows and Sign of Ill Omen). You can also use one of your ability increases at level 8 and 12 to pick up the Sentinel feat (the other increases Cha to 18). I will acknowledge I might be doing some stuff wrong here (just recently picked up the PHB) but I still submit it could be a fun ride. |
| #8MechatarrasqueMay 30, 2015 14:38:59 | I think it is admirable how you are trying to make an assasin rogue into a front-line fighter....sorry a bladelock into a paladin. Real system mastery is making a dubious concept work. We don't see enough of it.
However, For purposes of making a guide to the bladelock, it isn't the best place to start. If you look at what the bladelock does and what it traditional has done (as a hexblade), it has never been that good of a front line combatant, and it isn't now. It was good as a magical assasin even when D&D had an actual magical assasin class (even when D&D had a couple of magical assasin classes) and if you need to take out someone in a hurry now, it does pretty well compared to the rogue assasin and shadow monk (if you have a couple days to plan a hit, the bladelock falls a little short).
There are some doughty souls who will find satisfaction pushing through as a front line bladelock, but I suspect a lot of players would find it easier to embrace the trixterish nature of the bladelock and leave killing flunkies en mass to the guys with the big swords and the fireball-tossing wizards. |
| #9RCanineMay 30, 2015 14:44:35 | An interesting build would be Cleric 3+ / Warlock 5+.
Pre-racials would be
08 Str 14 Dex 12 Con 08 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha
...with a couple points left over. Pretty much any race that bumps dex, wis or cha would work.
Go nature cleric and get shillelagh, pump WIS as your attack stat, and use have medium armor, shield and quarterstaff.
Use your warlock slots to cast spiritual weapon, which will outperform Polearm Master, GWM and TWF and synergizes with hex. You trade crappy healing and a fighting style for a ton of healing, more cantrips and spells. Polearm Master might still be good for when you're out of spells and for the reaction attack.
You work fine without feats and play more or less the same at any level, and you work great in RP areas as well because your combat stats are also RP stats. |
| (Reply to #9)SterlingRat |
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| #11ZardnaarMay 30, 2015 15:13:25 |
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| #12AaronOfBarbariaMay 30, 2015 15:51:25 | Why would a bladelock choose to be dependent on eldritch blast? That's like a great weapon fighter depending on a bow. |
| #13XhaosdaemonMay 30, 2015 16:09:15 |
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| #14FunkySpunkMay 30, 2015 16:34:18 | Being a Warlock who concentrates on Eldritch Blast with the Pole Arm Mastery feat isn't a bad choice. You get the free stab with your halberd (or shillelaghed staff) when they enter your reach. |
| #15durntaurMay 30, 2015 19:19:19 |
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| #16SpedGuyMay 30, 2015 20:30:32 | I like the Oathbreaker -> Bladelock, both benefit from Charisma, warlock works well with paladin smite, get heavy armor... The ratio and order of levels are up for debate but I like that path to entry more than the fighter path |