Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Fiend-Factory Aug 03, 2015 16:52:58	I’ve noticed an interesting trend in my D&D games. Our current party consists of 3 lightly armored, ranged characters, a barbarian, and a paladin. (me) I’m a polearm specialist, who uses a halberd. I’ve got good armor class, usually 20-22, good saves (+3 to each from my charisma), immunity to fear, and a blessing that gives me advantage on saves against magic. Though he was built as a ultility striker, he also possesses very solid defenses. There is just one problem. I always seem to take way, way more damage than anyone else in the party, almost every single combat.   I wondered about this for a long while, often attributing it to lucky enemy die rolls, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But, over the many games I started to notice why this was so consistently true.  When given the choice, more enemies pile onto the front line classes. When our party of 5, is attacked by 12, the barbarian and myself each have to tangle with 3-4, while the others each face off with 1-2.   This seems to make sense. After all, we are the brawlers and should be taking hits for our squishier teammates. The problem is, this means that I get pummeled to hamburger meat, with startling regularity. While my AC makes me slightly harder to hit (roughly 20% less likely, with haste or similar magic active) than my less armored friends, I often end up standing against twice the enemies simply by merit of, I am wearing full plate, and they are not.   So a creature that deals an average of 10 damage per hit, and has a 65% chance to land an attack on one of our less armored characters, deals an average of 6.5 damage per round. The same creature has only a 45% chance to hit me. However, since I am dealing with 2 enemies, each with 45% hit chance, the total damage goes up to 9  per round. (almost 150% what the caster is taking)  This is of course projecting a blow for blow exchange. Our casters have a multitude of magical evasion techniques with which to protect themselves, or retreat to safety. Meanwhile, the barbarian’s omni-resistance means he can take my entire hit point total in damage, and not even be bloodied. This just leaves me, as the first to go down, each combat.   I found this somewhat interesting, and occasionally a bit frustrating. It serves the team well, as multiple creatures are occupied, with raining blows on the armored character(s), but it creates a dynamic where all melee classes are assumed to be ‘tanks.’ By wearing the armor, you invariably end up taking more damage overall.   So I’m curious, what do you all think? Anyone have any similar experiences?
#2 jaappleton Aug 03, 2015 17:36:10	Others here can run the numbers and averages much better than myself. But the simply fact is, you are a character designed to to that. You're supposed to be in the front lines, soaking up more damage. That's the class and role you chose.
#3 Mazzy Aug 03, 2015 17:46:23	Fiend-Factory wrote:
(Reply to #2) Fiend-Factory	jaappleton wrote:
#5 TomeOfTricksterBlood Aug 03, 2015 18:01:53	Take a look at Hit die, what you are describing is why classes have different hit die. Working as intended I belive.
#6 Fiend-Factory Aug 03, 2015 18:16:28	Let me rephrase my original point, I think it drifted off message somewhat. The character I rolled, is not a tank. He has slightly above normal armor, and a scant few hp more than the groups warlock. (the hitpoint difference is only 1 per level) However, much like any other striker build, heavy damage will drop him pretty quickly. The only point I was building to is this: Because it looks like a tank, it gets hit like a tank, and it drops because it is not a tank.
#7 FrogReaver Aug 03, 2015 19:39:16	5e has made most class very flexible with offensive and defensive tradeoffs.   For example, a paladin can spend spells healing or spend spells for damage. A barbarian can rage and reckless attack or just rage. A fighter can use parry manuever or he can use some of the ones to cause damage.   Casters can spend spells on defense or they can spend spells on offense. Clerics can spend spells on healing or on offesne.   Pretty much every class has an offesnive and defensive tradeoff that they always have access to. Also even beyond that, classes high higher damamge mitigation actually make healing more worthwhile.       I'd say you typically want more monsters going after your characters with higher damage mitigation than you do your ones with lower damage mitigation.  Now there is a cut off point.  You don't necessarily want all monsters going after you rather than your ally but you will typically wnat more going for you.
(Reply to #6) FrogReaver	Fiend-Factory wrote:
#9 Greenstone.Walker Aug 03, 2015 19:42:27	Fiend-Factory wrote:
#10 arnwolf666 Aug 03, 2015 20:03:45	I do respect the problem you have.  But in my opinion if you are going to build a Paladin, expect to be a tank on the front line, no exception.  I'm not trying to be a jerk on this one, it's just what a Paladin is.  A Paladin is a leader, cavalier, front line warrior.  I would feel no pity for the party wizard that took martial proficiency 2handed sword and went to the front lines to fight without being very very careful on how he was going to do it (False Life, Shield, Armor, etc), even then it is rough.
#11 Cutlass Aug 03, 2015 21:59:40	Well, there is another side to this. If the DM is running intelligent monsters, why are they going for the tanks instead of the squishies? Granted that the DM really doesn't want to wipe the party out, but if I'm running monsters that are intelligent enough to use group tactics and they outnumber the party then there are only so many of them the tanks can tie up. If the terrain is reasonably open the squishies are going to have to be on their toes. But then I'm one of those obnoxious guys who likes moving figures on a map and likes the tactical aspects of things.
#12 Corran21 Aug 03, 2015 22:27:27	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #12) arnwolf666	Corran21 wrote:
#14 rgoodbb Aug 03, 2015 23:55:14	Agree with Greenstone. Where is your healer?   What is the rest of the party mkeup?   Also. Does your party have access to V. Mockery/frostbite, Shield of faith, Cutting words, Portent, anything that buffs you or debuffs the enemy or are they all sorcerers, warlocks and rangers?
#15 Razintarr Aug 04, 2015 3:40:10	Don't blame it on the armor. The reason that you get damaged a lot is that you are positioned between the enemies and the ranged characters. As you stated, the barbarian next to you gets the same amount of attackers, and he probably doesn't wear any armor.    Part of the problem seems to be that you didn't expect to tank, but that you need to because the DM tends to use very large groups of enemies, that the barbarian couldn't handle himself. Plus you have many ranged characters, that do best without any enemies around them. If you had more melee characters the need to tank would be lessened.   Maybe you should talk to the other players about party composition, to maybe switch out a ranged character for another melee, or you can embrace the role you're pushed into and (with dm-approval) switch some stats and feats around to be more of a tank. Or talk to the dm for him to switch to using less enemies at a time.
(Reply to #6) jaappleton	Fiend-Factory wrote:
#17 Yunru Aug 04, 2015 4:45:59	Sounds like someone in the party's not dropping AoEs when they see hoards. You should look into that.
#18 Kangodo Aug 04, 2015 5:30:11	arnwolf666 wrote:
#19 Meta4ic Aug 04, 2015 6:05:04	I understand your frustration, but it looks like you need to ask your party to use different strategies. Try to get advantage of the terrain, set snares so you can ambush at least the 1st line of opponents, use oil, etc. There are a lot of ways to bottleneck enemies and avoid the kind of situation you describe (holding 3-4 foes by yourself).   As others pointed out, group composition has an impact on the battleground, but to me it's what makes D&D interesting (as opposed to MMO's, where roles are strictly set) : each group has it's strengths and weaknesses and the challenge is to discover the best synergy for your group.   As a DM, I usually get the monsters to try and reach the second line (creatures don't like being sniped with impunity!) But, yes, there are times when the guys in heavy armor see a lot more fangs and claws than others in the back, at least for a few rounds.   That being said, it might not be the best action in terms of how you want to play your pally, but i'd suggest you take the dodge action when facing that many opponents, and bite the bullet until your friends have cleared or crowd controlled some of them. It could make a huge difference in terms of lost hit points.
#20 Corran21 Aug 04, 2015 7:30:25	arnwolf666 wrote:
#21 TenaciousJ Aug 04, 2015 6:57:15	Yunru wrote:
#22 DemoMonkey Aug 04, 2015 7:56:20	If the majority of the group is ranged attackers....   How are the enemies GETTING to the "tanks"? The whole point of range is to kill all the enemies at range!   it's the snipers who aren't pulling their weight here.
#23 Kangodo Aug 04, 2015 7:57:40	Corran21 wrote:
#24 Fiend-Factory Aug 04, 2015 10:41:52	Wow, I didn’t expect so much variety in the replies. I think it’s important to distinguish between a discussion on effective use of gameplay mechanics or class roles, and general DM/Player behavior. The latter of which was my original intention.   FrogReaver wrote:
#25 Yunru Aug 04, 2015 10:45:27	I shall repeat: where is your party's AoE? You've a Warlock, a Druid and a Bard, all of whom can do AoE, not to mention you as a paladin have access to some.
#26 Be3Al2 Aug 04, 2015 11:14:01	I've mostly been in a party of 2 melee frontliners with plate, a rogue mixing melee and range, a wizard and a ranger. What I have noticed in the fights that are comparable is that both tanks (one with sentinel, one with protector fighting style) work really well together, in particular when the rogue joins the front line. Most of the time this has worked great, in particular when there has been a choke point. Still, there has been a tendency that one of the tanks is fine while the other is almost unharmed, but it has had a lot to do with who got focus fired that encounter.   Based on this my advice for your party would be: 1. Use choke points. If you can get the barbarian in a 5 foot wide anything, your paladin right behind with reach and healing and then the rest (with sharpshooter or spell sniper) to pound the enemy from behind that might work well. 2. If one of the lightly armored characters is a rogue, ranger or similar, get them to join in melee from time to time.   Edit: I had to walk away from the computer for a while mid-post and missed the part about what the ranged character classes were.
#27 Fiend-Factory Aug 04, 2015 11:43:25	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #6) Sorsohka	Fiend-Factory wrote:
(Reply to #20) arnwolf666	Corran21 wrote:
#30 Vulf Aug 04, 2015 14:56:59	If you have a "front line" your DM is coddling your group.   I've yet to have 2 sessions in a row where the casters standing in the back don't find themselves attacked by a grobbit that jumps out of some bushes.     That said, between 2 games I'm playing, only one of them has a character wearing heavy armor. And that's only because we didn't let a computer roll our stats 1000 times to choose from the top 10 rolls in that game.
#31 Ahrimon Aug 04, 2015 13:52:03	Despite some opinions that paladins are required to be front line fighters I'd say with the way your character was designed you should go big or go home.  Embrace your character design.  You shouldn't have to sacrifice your character concept because everyone else decided to be ranged.  My suggestion is that you adjust your tactics to be a bit more of a skirmisher.  Keep yourself moving around the battlefield hitting the enemy.  Don't let them group up on you.  You built a utility strikert so play it.  Maybe once the DM get's tired of chasing your character around he may turn his attention on the others a bit more.
#32 UngeheuerLich Aug 04, 2015 14:24:30	I would also suggest just to play your character as you like. If other people are not helping you out, stop helping them. Your paladin does not sound like a help everyone and sacrifice yourself for the party. How do you play the game btw.? Combat as sport or combat as war?
#33 JackOfAllTirades Aug 04, 2015 14:41:59	A paladin can "tank up" with extra HP before or during a fight by choosing the right spells. I'd recommend Aid and Aura of Vitality for starters. That's assuming your party's healer isn't helping you enough already, which seems to be the case here.
#34 arnwolf666 Aug 04, 2015 15:22:35	I do see a problem with alot of players wanting to play the ranged guy.  And Rogue's are virtually untouchable at melee.  I almost think that Rogue movement as a Bonus action should be removed and possibly replaced with something else like attacks against you are at disadvantage while within 5 feet of an ally.  Every class should be built to withstand melee in my OPINION.
#35 Fiend-Factory Aug 04, 2015 16:18:16	Ahrimon wrote:
#36 awaken_D_M_golem Aug 04, 2015 16:19:03	Homegame Paladin guy was not playing it shmartly. I said why don't you try all those Ranged weapons with proficiency you've got. He said I don't do Ranged.   So I looked at using my Famaliar to deliver Shocking Grasp('s plural sigh)  so he could run away.  And administer a healing kit dose once. He started whining. I said I don't have Healing, so ...
#37 BRJN Aug 04, 2015 19:13:22	Get a Whip and stand just behind the Barbarian, next time he blocks a doorway.  Whips have Reach.   Ask your DM about the swarms of enemies.  Having a BBEG (or a pair of Lieutenants) from time to time would provide you some relief.   In my group, the Bard is the DM's worst enemy: she has the Healing Staff and the de-buff spell (Cutting Words?) that make monsters whiff against broadsides of barns.   Talk to your casters about varying their spells. Call Lightning might be better than Fireball, given the campaign theme you describe.  Some Acid attacks would be good, too.  And Radiant !   You DO know that you get a free +1d8 Smite damage against Fiends (such as devils)?   If your DM lets you re-spec your character, consider the feat Inspiring Leader.  THPs to take one hit for free is a good investment of 10 minutes.   For fun, try casting Heroism on your ranged allies, especially the Rogue or Druid.
#38 shintashi Aug 04, 2015 21:12:41	D&D has weird theories about who is supposed to take damage. The paladin is expected to tank, and the barbarian is expected to tank. The fighter and ranger may or may not tank. A fighter with a bow and a rapier would probably not tank as well as a guy in heavy armor with maxed out constitution. A three attack per round melee ranger could probably tank especially if their pet knocked some of their opponents prone.   We have a mage tank in our party right now, it's getting pretty interesting.
(Reply to #38) arnwolf666	shintashi wrote:
#40 Saeviomagy Aug 04, 2015 23:40:25	Announce to your DM that you are explicitly letting a certain number of foes past you to the back ranks.   Your party is best served if no one drops from damage. That means that no one should have monbsters on them capable of dropping them in a single round. The DMs monsters should not be expected to manage this, so it's up to you.
#41 Vulf Aug 05, 2015 2:56:09	You can only make 1 reaction per turn order, not like you can't just throw three kobolds to run past them and soak up all the opportunity attacks.   Also, use the Wandering Damage Table outside of combat.   And throw some false starts every now and then. Have a couple ranged guys take pot shots, and then disappear down a tunnel afterwards. If they decide to short rest in the middle of a dungeon let them.   At the end of the hour, they hear a loud *THUNK* as if a huge door was just sealed. Then they hear a soft hissssssss..... as the air starts to turn foul.
#42 Rya.Reisender Aug 05, 2015 3:40:55	Well there aren't Paladins in my group but there is one defensive Fighter and a Cleric in my group and they intentionally try to tank the damage (up to the point where they through in extreme provocations to be attacked). In the end they often lose more HP than the Rogue and the Wizard, but if the Rogue or Wizard would have taken the same amount of hits, they wouldn't even have survived. Plus especially fighters can use Second Wind which often makes the difference of having a to do a short rest after every battle or only every second battle. Aaaand don't forget that higher AC basically makes healing cheaper. A healing spell will always recover the same amount of HP but with higher AC reducing HP is harder. So healing is more effective on tanks in terms of cost / effect.
#43 Awakened_Gazebo Aug 05, 2015 4:34:05	heh I had a fellow player back in 4th ed that thought that the defenders job was to take all the damage for the rest of the party. After a battle he would be very proud of himself if he was at death doorstep, while the rest of the party was unharmed. BUT that wasnt tactically sound. Its always better to have 4 characters at half HPs than 2 characters rolling death saving throws and 2 other characters in mint condition. The 2 downed characters would be forced to spend a lot of HD in a short rest to get back into the fight, while the 2 undamaged characters are standing there with a bunch of HD they cant spend, and totally wasting them at the end of the adventuring day.   It seems to me that your DM thinks the same way as my player did. I would try and see if I couldnt convince the rogue to become a part-time frontline fighter too- The warlock could also easily get close and personal as long as he is casting the correct sort of spell. Lets say it takes 10 sword swings to bring you  to half your HP, and it only takes 5 sword swings to bring the rogue to half HP. In that case it would be better for the party if you took 7 or 8 swings and the rogue took the rest- at wich points he starts using his ability to leave the danger zone. If the warlock is a fiend warlock or a blade (but I dont think he is) then he could easily get personal with the enemies too, if he is a tomelock he could have his familiar help him and still fire his eldritch blasts at point blank range without disadvantage. If he is a tomelock.... eh go read the part about the rogue again.   As long as the enemies arent packing a lot of area damage, stick close have the rogue cover one of your flanks.. at least until he has taken a few hit and starts to run away
#44 Yunru Aug 05, 2015 4:41:03	Spiritual Gaurdians, problem solved :P Just don't default to "kill it with fire" if it resists fire :P
#45 FuelDrop Aug 05, 2015 6:18:29	*Sings*   "They come runnin' just as fast as they can, the monsters go crazy for a well armoured man!"
#46 Be3Al2 Aug 05, 2015 7:18:46	If you have a steed and a reach weapon it might work really well to do hit-and-run (unless the enemies also have reach). Striking from where they can't reach you => no opportunity attack when you run away again. Making cavalry charges from behind caster/ranged lines and back again would also let your barbarian get the full "challenge" that you hint the DM might want to provide.
#47 Mommy_was_an_Orc Aug 05, 2015 7:32:10	I'd note a few specific things: At 15th level, if you're a Devotion Paladin, you'll have Protection from Evil/Good always on. Which means a lot of high level opponents will have Disadvantage against you. Next things assume that's not true. Think about picking up 2-7 levels of Warlock for Fiend+Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast+Devil's Sight+extra spell slots for Smites/Paladin spells. You're fighting a lot of opponents - you'll get temp hit points all the time. Don't engage opponents - move up to within 10' of them, attack, then move away so they have to trigger a reaction to get close to you. This works well with the Warlock levels, because if they don't approach you(or worse, fly away somewhere), you can blast them. If you go with the Warlock levels, think about Repulsing Blast - knock opponents next to the Barbarian so they need to trigger reactions to go after you. I think the main thing to try is to get the Barbarian to take the bigger brunt of the attacks when he's raging. That resistance is really awesome and you want to focus opponents on attacking him. Then use the party healing to make it a really bad idea to have attacked the Barbarian in the first place.
#48 Thrasymachus0 Aug 05, 2015 12:42:36	If it seems your DM is intent on having large groups of enemies (and singling you out over the range characters) and no one is providing effective healing or AOE, I'm not really sure how you can actually play the "tank" role - you're just playing "the guy getting bullied" role.   To me, Tanking implies a particular set of tactics are in play, requiring particular roles to be filled. When you have a "good" party composition, then yeah you might as well, but it sounds like your party is more balanced for guerrilla type warfare - you might as well get creative with what you have than trying to fulfil a goal (as a party) you aren't prepared for. Its kinda ironic, but it just sounds like trying to be a tank is actually suboptimal for your party as a whole - yet by doing so, you're the only one (arguably including the DM) actually trying to adapt to the situation.
#49 LasteEnygma Aug 08, 2015 22:20:40	I can't seem to echo enough the statements about the whole party pitching in to take some hits. Everyone has HD that are waiting to be utilized. I've stood side by side with barbarians as a wizard, by fighters as the only healer, etc. Melee warrior types will usually be the "frontline", but in my games I've always viewed their HP as my own. Kinda why "healing word" is so awesome. The saying attached to it is "you only need 1 hp to fight". That applies to everyone, not just the frontline. A downed team member can be a nasty domino effect in a close fight. I'll take 4 injured PC's over 2 downed frontline and 2 healthy ranged/fragile/support any day.
#50 Slagger_the_Chuul Aug 09, 2015 0:46:57	Apart from anything else, downed party members cost you available actions as a group; the easiest form of power multiplication is often just having more people.