This is a repost from the general section of the forums I probably should have put it here to start with.
The gish is an old stereotype in D&D going back to the TSR days and 1E where you could be a fighter/magic user or perhaps the basic part of BECMI. Multiclassing back then worked differently and the option worked because you levelled up in both classes at the same time the trade off was slower levelling and less hit points and you missed out on fighter weapon specialization. The concept struggles a bit in 3.x due to the changes made form 2E to 3E and various things were tried from the 3.0 Arcane Archer and Bladesinger to things like 3.5’s Hexblade, Duskblade, and prestige classes such as the Eldritch Knight, Abujurant Champion ans probably some others I have missed. 4E gave us the Swordmage which I am not that familiar with but it was a new class and not ye olde traditional fighter/mage variant.
Now 5E has rolled around and in theory you can be a gish. This is due to things such as being able to cast spells in armour and they even gave you several options in the PHB to help you along. Those options are the Bladelock, Valor Bard and Eldritch Knight. However they are all traps. One can make a gish but you need a bit of system mastery to do it well IMHO. And probably a lenient DM as well who allows Unearthed Arcana Options into the game. This is because of several fundamental problems in the RAW for 5E.
1. Most of the gish are not proficient with constitution saves which makes classic buff spells like haste, enhance ability or greater invisibility very risky to use. The Eldritch Knight is an exception here but it is generally the weakest fighter type until the highest levels of the game where it is the best fighter. You can use blasting spells but won’t be very good at it because you are not a Dragon Sorcerer or Invoker or you can try and find spells that do not require concentration. The Paladin is a better Gish than all of the arcane based ones at least in terms of a basic build.
2. You need a hand free to actually cast spells. This basically means you are giving up AC and damage when compared to a normal martial type. You can get around this with the warcaster feat which is basically a feat tax anyway for arcane gish. Even the eldritch knight who is proficient in con saves if he is using a two handed weapon or a weapon+ shield can’t even cast a shield spell RAW.
3. MAD or multiple ability dependency. If you want to be half decent at being a gish you need a decent ability score on you spell casting stat. Technically speaking you can put a 10 or something there but you will not be able to hit very well with your cantrips which is giving up your versatility. A Valor bard for example who wants to use medium armor wants to have a decent strength score, 14 dex, a decent con score (12 or 14) and probably wants a decent charisma as well. They can go dex based but the Valor bard doesn’t get that many ability score increases and needs a high dex in order to have a half decent AC.
4. Armour. Most of the gish classes are not proficient in heavy armour which means light or medium armor. See point 3 about MAD. This means that in order to be half efficient (and not even optimised) you need to wear heavy armour which means multiclassing out of a class proficient in heavy armor, multi classing into the cleric or blowing a feat on the ability to wear heavy armor. Multicasting generally means you are behind on feats/ASI (see point 3), extra attacks and you really need to know how to do it in order to not well suck. Or you can just play a Paladin. Medium armor is a trap without the medium armour master feat, light armour is a trap for most classes that are not a fighter or a rogue.
Note that rolling ability scores with a good roll make a lot of these problems go away. A valor bard with multiple scores (4+) over 14 or 16 starts to look a lot better. If one is patient I recommend the Eldritch Knight as it doesn’t actually punish you for a lot of these points and you can always blow a feat to pick up hex or hunters quarry as fighters get more feats than most classes. Picking up spells like that is also another way to deal decent damage as a dex based melee character as you are competing with feats like Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, or even shield master which are basically all better than most dex based feat options for melee PCs. If you are not playing an Eldritch Knight I recommend rolling your scores and praying. Note RAW the DM can’t stop you from rolling the dice it is his call to let you use point buy. This is not to power game the system but you are basically gimping your character compared to the Eldritch Knight who is both proficient in heavy armour and constitution saves. And the Paladin is also a very good class right out of the box and is semi proficient in con saves via being able to cast bless and the charisma bonus to saves thing.
This is what I meant as most of the gish builds are not that good unless you roll well or have a decent understanding of character optimization. I would go as far as using words like “it’s a trap” to quote Admiral Akbar. A few of these problems go away via multiclassing as well. In general 6 levels of Paladin or Eldritch Knight tend to help as they get a bonus feat at level 6 or charisma bonus to saves and six levels also give you 2 attacks and conveniently enough count as 2 caster levels for terms of multiclassing. The Warlock is also another great option as the invocations are not tied to actual levels in the warlock class and several spells the Warlock has are useful for gish such as hex and Armor of Agathys. I recommend the following options/ideas based on what I have tried myself or seen my players get up to.
Bladelock.
To build a better bladelock is very simple. You do not care about spell patterns or multiple attacks generally as you can take the bladethirst invocation at level 5 anyway. My recommendation is to take the 1st level in fighter and the next levels in Warlock. The fighter dip level gives you better saves (con+strength), heavy armour proficiency (reduces MAD), a weapon style and on occasion you might even use second wind when you are not using your bonus action to move hex around. This build by level 13 can also add cha bonus to damage so you are dealing weapon damage+str+cha+1d6(hex) to damage. You can also cast hex in higher level slots to make it last longer which means it will still be up after your warlock spells refresh on a short rest. You also have ranged versatility with ye olde eldritch blast which you can add cha bonus to damage so you do not get punished as much as most melee PCs. This build is really good in play and is the arcane equivalent of a Paladin IMHO and it doesn’t suffer at low levels except maybe at level 2.
Paladin/Sorcerer
This build takes 6 levels of Paladin and fills the rest up with Sorcerer. You have to make the trade off of being proficient in constitution saves or being proficient in heavy armor. However you do get metamagic which means you can use twin spell and quicken which helps in terms of action economy and casting haste (or whatever) on yourself. I would be tempted by the spell list of the light and tempest domains since you pick up a good chunk of the life domain spells you want off the 6 Paladin levels. Quickened bless is also very very sexy IMHO.
Abjurant Champion
Similar to the Paladin/Sorcerer but you are taking 6 levels of Eldritch Knight and then multi classing into the Abjurer. You miss out on the ability to quicken stuff but pick up the the Abjurer ability. You will have to hard cast the wizard spells so look for buff spells with a decent duration such as Fire Shield and Enhance Ability or spells you can cast as a reaction. All you really want to do is tank around anyway with bonus hit points.
Valor Bard.
A single classed Valor Bard is very MAD IMHO. If I had to play one again I would roll stats or just play a damn half elf and take the warcaster feat. With the default array I would do the fighter level splash to pick up heavy armor, proficiency in con saves and weapon style to offset your weak melee damage. Bards make great wrestlers and shield masters due to the ability to have expertise in athletics and the ability to cast enhance ability. Double proficiency bonus and advantage on rolls to push NPCs prone is very good and gets better if you have a great weapon master in the party. At Bard level 10 you can steal spells like hex and destructive wave so you gain an extra 1d6 damage on attacks and can impose disadvantage on their checks to resist being knocked over. And destructive wave is one of the best blast spells in the game and can knock them prone.
That’s roughly it and my thoughts on why I think being a gish is a bad idea for the most part unless you have a very good idea on what to do. If you really want to play a dex based single classed bladelock feel free to try it out but I do not recommend it. Gauntlets of Ogre Power are also really really good for all hybrid type classes that might consider using a strength based weapon. Spoiler alert you can find a set in Lost Minds of Phandelver.
Good thoughts, and definitely good recommedations... I have a couple questions...
Why do you recommend Paladin/Sorc without at least mentioning Paladin/Warlock? Ancients Paladin and Chain Warlock (Sprite) have some nice synergies thematically, and the short-rest recharge on spell slots makes consuming them for Divine Smite an obvious choice. Besides, if I ever do get in real trouble, my Sprite familiar can ride to the rescue on my Warhorse mount...
Okay, it's not as powerful as the combinations you did bring up, but it's not a trap, either.
SterlingRat wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
I think EK gets a bad rap. The fighter chassis is so strong, it's like an already strong class with a caster tacked onto it that gets the best spell list in the game, albeit with some restrictions.
But fighters get the most stat ups, which helps with madness and feat taxes, action surge makes for some great spell nova if you want, and yes often just hitting things will be better than casting, but you're still a fighter.
Every other arcane gish gets so little support but with the EK it's all baked in. Good saves, heavy armor, lots of feats, fighting style, casting plus attacking in one go, free teleportation later which is mostly fluff but it's still cool.
Weedeater wrote:
Everything has trade offs. I don't know if I'd call EK bad in the beginning since shield makes them almost indestructible but I understand why of the three it's in a way the slowest to pick up. Though idk if champion is really "better" in the beginning.
Valor bars and Warlock both suffer from not having fighting styles, and warlock doesn't get improved armor or anything and is tied to one weapon for their extra attacks. Though +5 necrotic damage to each attack is abstractly better than any fighting style, it comes so late and it's hard to swing max charisma and strength. Dex makes things a little easier.
Warlock in particular gets so little built in help though, especially for strength. Though their survivability is pretty good all things considered due to how much temporary HP they can get.
Valor bard I haven't thought too much about because bards aren't very cool to me. It just seems like their melee damage would be so much worse than their spellcasting. But idk.
Weedeater wrote:
With the builds I've been playing around with, Paladin 6/Sorcerer X really is a stand out. The sorcerer list is so much better than the Warlock or Bard list for a Gish (way more buffs, strong defense spells, etc). Paladin and Sorcerer marry perfectly for multiclassing. Quicken spell is particularly useful for a character who can use the regular action to beat things into paste, getting past the "bonus spell + action spell" restrictions. The extra spell slots provide more smiting than a straight Paladin could hope for, with more spellcasting added in as well. Shield/Absorb Elements/Mirror Image make for a particularly resilient front-liner.
There is a decent argument for going Sorcerer 1/Paladin 6/Sorcerer X, but Paladin 6/Sorcerer X isn't bad either. The former provides the Con save, but the latter gets the paladin goodies a level earlier, which may not mean anything end-game, but level 4 and 5 will be a lot more fun.
Jared711 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
My main concenr with a favored soul frontline fighter type is the1d6 hit points. How are you finding that?
Zardnaar wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
We seem to be focusing on the gish builds that do work. Maybe we should post some that don't?
Oh, those are easy: Builds that don't get some form of Extra Attack, builds that rely on more than one physical + one mental stat without some MAJOR payoff in return, builds that don't have at least 5th-level spells by Lv. 20 (with just a couple exceptions there; pure EK 20 and Paladin 13/Warlock 7 being those exceptions).
How would you compare the Fighter 1 / Bladelock (or Paladin 2 / Bladelock) with the Fighter 1 / Favored Soul (or Paladin 2 / Favored Soul) as gishes?
I'm going to be starting a campaign, what do you guys think of this Gish idea? Minotaur (gives me Horns for a weapon, a shield and a free hand), Fighter1/Abjurer 6/Eldritch Knight13. Using Protection Fighting Style to be a true tag team partners with a GW Fighter and a Melee Cleric.
Would this fall into the successful Gish category, or do you think I'm destined to have a hard time?
Coyote81m wrote:
DonaldT wrote:
FabulousRex wrote:
Thiis might be your worst post yet. The only part of it that isn't 100% wrong is the Bladelock stuff. And even then, you're being hysterical over small things.
Zardnaar wrote:
The strength based bard actually works you just need rolled stats a half elf the fighter dip level. That was an early 5E build there is better ways to do it.
THe EK is a bit weak at low levels, its not a trap as such but its not what a lot of people want it to be. I like the class and am fine with it but there is a lot of whining on other forums. THe EK only gets a relative handfuul of spells from outside Abujration and Invocation.
If I wanted an OP PC I would just play a Paladin for a martial type or a Sorlock. I am usually the DM so I do not get to play as such so my desire for an OP character is not that relevent and my next planned PC is a monk if I get to use rolled stats or whatever the party needs on the default array. SOmew classes peak at different levels (EK later on Moond Druid/Monk lvl 2) and some classes benefit more than others from high stats.
As to my 3.x comment I was referencing the core books if you threw enough splat at the system you could more or less do anything you want. In real games outside my group I did not see many 3E splats being used I had the largest 3.x collection. After 3.0 where I did see Cleric Archers, Red Wizards and Shadow Adepts being used I said no to a lot of the broken stuff in 3.5 so we never really had the problems other gaming groups had with 3.5. Eventually burned out on it still but I never saw a lot of the power build combos from the char op boards in a real game. The other groups I saw didn't know the power combos.
Zardnaar wrote:
gish?
The original multi-class was an elf that could be a 4/8 fighter magic user.
Breaking the elven stranglehold on multi-classing has been great for civil rights.
(Yes, the Dwarven PAC was heard from. Since they had the gold ... )
No need to apply an epithet to characters who can multitask. 
+++++++++
MC is the worse thing that ever happened in D&D IMHO. I'd rather see hybrid classes and archetypes that keep things in check.
danyc wrote:
I think it all depends on point of view. One of the big issues with Extra Attack from a weapon class+pure caster is that you're not getting 3rd level spells until a minimum of 10th. Which is also roughly the time that many casters get to cast Animate Object on a dropped bandolier of 10 daggers. Make 10 creatures who attack as a bonus action and then have the target sitting within their reach...i.e. Opportunity Attacks and Disadvantage for ranged attackers. And doesn't rely on primary stat for anything and hits even CR 20 creatures typically on an 11. Then Shield spell kicks up AC to the right level regardless of build.
I'd look personally at a Valor Bard 17/Sorcerer 3 for the following capabilities because of those options in practical play.
Medium Armor/Martial Weapons at 3rd
Extra Attack at 6th
Shield at 7th(Valor Bard 6/Sorcerer 1) - Half Plate+14 Dex+Shield = AC 22.
Animate Objects at 10th(Valor Bard 9/Sorcerer 1)
Haste at 11th(Valor Bard 10/Sorcerer 1)
Quickened or Extended Haste at 13th(Valor Bard 10/Sorcerer 3). 8 minutes of Animate Object can be a lot of fun too.
Extended*3 Foresight castable at the end of a non-adventuring day for Advantage on to-hit rolls+9th level spell slot open for True Polymorph as a capstone. Plus full 20th level caster in terms of spell slots.
Coyote81m wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
I'm not convinced that a single casting of animate object gets you 10 creatures. It should get you one creature (even if it has 10 attacks), but that one bandoleer can be smacked by the giant quite efficiently.
ArialBlack wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
ArialBlack wrote:
Jared711 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
DonaldT wrote: