Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 HeirRaktus Sep 06, 2014 20:01:47	So, I keep seeing ths build pop up in threads for Paladins and Warlocks alike. I would love to see it discussed more in depth without taking away from other threads intent. Below is a posting of the build as I've come to know it, using the creation method my GM runs with. The intent is to have a shield and quarterstaff wielding Paladin who uses the cantrip shillelagh in addition to feat support to maximize Charisma usefullnes and attack damage.   Johannes Algor, level 12 Human, Paladin 8/Warlock 4 Background: Soldier Speed: 30' Languages: Common, Three of your choice   STARTING ABILITY SCORES (using point buy) Str 15 (+1), Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16 (+1).   ENDING ABILITY SCORES  Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 20.   AC: 20 (Full Plate + Shield)  HP: 124 (assuming max HP)   Skill Proficiencies Athletics, Intimidation, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Perception   Item Proficiencies All armor, shields, Simple weapons, martial weapons, Vehicles (land)   FEATS Level 1: Polearm Master Level 4: War Caster   POWERS Paladin 1: Lay on Hands Paladin 1: Divine Sense Paladin 2: Duelist Paladin 2: Spellcasting Paladin 2: Divine Smite Paladin 3: Divine Health Paladin 3: Sacred Oath (Oath of the Ancients) Paladin 4: Feat Paladin 5: Extra Attack Warlock 1: Otherworldly Patron (The Archfey) Warlock 1: Pact Magic Warlock 2: Eldritch Invocations (Agonizing Blast, Devil’s Sight) Warlock 3: Pact Boon (Pact of the Tome) Paladin 6: Aura of Protection Paladin 7: Aura of Warding Paladin 8: Ability Score Improvement (Charisma)  Warlock 4: Ability Score Improvement (Charisma)
#2 RCanine Sep 06, 2014 20:41:51	You need at least 13 strength to multiclass as a paladin. You need at least 15 Strength to wear full plate without penalty.
#3 HeirRaktus Sep 06, 2014 20:46:24	RCanine wrote:
#4 Kalani Sep 06, 2014 23:44:02	Why would you use the Shillelagh cantrip when your Strength and Charisma are equal? At best, the cantrip will net you a +10% accuracy boost if you boost charisma and leave your Strength as-is. Not a major boon in this respect.   I would sooner take the 10ft speed penalty and take Spell Sniper (Eldritch Blast) at level 1. This allows you to dump strength (13 min for multiclassing) and gives you a solid Charisma attack in the early game. I would then focus on getting Warlock 3 in order to gain Shillelagh, and Hex early so that they serve the character for a larger portion of their adventuring career.    Alternatively, you can always have a Dex 14, and go medium armor. Taking that option, you can start off with dual-wielded shortswords and Resilient (Constitution) at level 1, and take Warlock (Eldritch Blast) and Hex at level 2, continue Warlock to level 5 (Warlock 4), and pick up Polearm Master. Then continue paladin as desired. At one point I would probably pick up Warlock 5 in order to net another invocation and higher level warlock spells. I would avoid using a Shield until such times as you gain Warcaster feat however (either at 5th, or 8th level).    When you gain Shillelagh at 4th level, I would drop the Shortswords and use the quarterstaff instead. As your charisma is likely 16, your damage should be slightly higher, due to gaining your stat bonus to both attacks, and your +1 accuracy boost.    The only problem with this is that both Hex and Shillelagh require a bonus action to cast, preventing you from making bonus action attacks during your first 2 turns. At Warlock 5 however, this penalty becomes negligable, as your Hex lasts upto 8 hrs at that point.
#5 RCanine Sep 06, 2014 21:54:58	Yeah, you're not gaining much from Shilellagh at this point. Also, resilient (con) and warcaster have a lot of overlap. I'd pick one.   One thing that you can do is get only 14 STR, and take the Heavy Armor Master feat to give your 15. Then you can stack CHA for the rest of your career.
#6 Kalani Sep 06, 2014 22:13:36	Warcaster and Resilient (Con) don't overlap as much as you think. One grants proficiency with all Con saves (better at higher levels with a +4-6 prof bonus); while Warcaster only grants advantage with concentration checks. Reslient also grants +1 Con (which is useful for a squishie class), while warcaster removes somatic requirements and allows you to cast spells instead of making OAs.   With that being said, Resilient (Con) is better to gain in paragon levels, due to the reduced prof bonus in lower levels.
#7 RCanine Sep 06, 2014 23:33:29	Kalani wrote:
#8 Kalani Sep 06, 2014 23:39:59	In this build, Warcaster is chosen primarily for its other benefits - Negating Somatic components, and being able to cast spells instead of making an OA. Advantage on Concentration checks is less useful for a warlock/paladin than it is for other spellcasters, with the exception of Hex - which is a key damage multiplier for the build. Ideally, this character wants to have an 8hr long Hex active.
#9 HeirRaktus Sep 07, 2014 5:48:58	Lowered the Strength and increased the Intelligence with the floating points. Used the Human bonus to keep the Strength enough to wear Full Plate still. Another benefit of lower level Resilient (Con) is that it pumps your Constitution bonus to +2 to increase your HP total by two for every level from the start.   Kalani wrote:
#10 mellored Sep 07, 2014 8:24:02	Your still not benifiting much from shillelagh.   Consider the mobile feat, or just medium armor.   Kalani wrote:
#11 Kalani Sep 07, 2014 9:41:43	While it is true that the build benefits very little from Shillelagh, it is a thematically cool choice - A plate weilding fop who performs elaborate displays with a wooden stick, only to bop someone on the head at the last minute (charisma to hit/damage).    Unlike 3.5 and 4E, 5th edition is extremely forgiving of roleplaying choices. One cantrip choice is not going to break the character, especially since Eldritch Blast pulls most of the weight for the character anyway - what is a Tomelock to do with their 3 cantrip choices? Take the Light or Mending cantrips?
(Reply to #11) Undrhil	Kalani wrote:
#13 RCanine Sep 07, 2014 20:53:53	Kalani wrote:
#14 RCanine Sep 07, 2014 21:06:29	Kalani wrote:
#15 Polaris Sep 08, 2014 13:03:25	It seems to me that if you really wanted to benefit from Shillelagh, you'd want to go with some combination of Bard/Warlock instead.  The best benefit from Shillelagh that I can think of would be:   Warlock-14 (Pactblade)/Bard-6(Lore)   Key Invocations would be Thirsting Blade and [edit]Lifedrinker[/edit].  You could pick up Shillelagh from Magical Secrets (Lore Bard level 6).  You would also be able to have the classic Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast as well.   When it all works together you'd be able to attack twice with a club using your charisma stat to attack and double your charisma stat for damage.   That's the best synergy I've been able to find, and it takes a long time to set up (not fully set up until level 18) but I am including it as a basis of comparison.   -Polaris
#16 HeirRaktus Sep 07, 2014 21:44:56	Edited the original post to reflect some updated ideas posted above.