Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jaden_stormtracker Jun 18, 2015 22:04:09	Back when the first survey results were posted, they said that the Ranger was going to be under a closed group to fix some of the issues that the furst survey had uncovered, specifcally the Beast Master Ranger. Have they given up on this idea? I certainly hope that the spellless Ranger wasn't it.   Some information would be appreciated WotC, its been several months now.
#2 Ashrym Jun 18, 2015 22:38:35	There was some recent twitter activity indicating more unearthed arcana info might be coming. I find beastmaster gets a bit of a bad rap it doesn't deserve because there are some decent companion options. The issues tend more towards clunky / awkward command mechanics that came from action limits, and also from the combat focus players have when beasts tend to offer other utility benefits.
(Reply to #2) jaden_stormtracker	Ashrym wrote:
#4 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 19, 2015 6:17:11	I'm not sure I consider the Ranger broken, but I do think the two sub-classes are poorly balanced against each other.  It seems clear the designers were concerned that unbalance may occur through action economy if the pet could take actions on its own, but I think they overcorrected.
#5 Coredump00 Jun 19, 2015 7:29:14	Jaden, you are on a much faster timeline then they have described.  They have said that the errata was not for changing or improving classes/rules.  Those changes will come after some playtesting and more community involvement.  IOW, they are taking their time, so play the PCs you like and don't hold your breathe.
#6 Mechatarrasque Jun 19, 2015 7:50:39	I think it is more a case of literalism than overcorrection.  Pet lovers kept telling them that they wanted to play Pokemon style, and you don't see Ash putting an arrow through whatever critter is beating up Pikachu....   I would have made it so that if you melee attack an enemy, the pet melee attacks with you (on that same enemy) as part of your action, and if you want the pet to attack a different enemy, you would have to spend you action on it (and I would go further and say that if the ranger is incapacitated, the pet is "trained" to attack the closest enemy as if the ranger had spent an action telling it to attack).  Tag teaming the enemy would  up the ranger's damage, keep the action economy relatively simple, and help keep the amount of time the player takes more in line with everyone else.
#7 zingbobco000 Jun 19, 2015 8:10:51	This is all based on optimization, if you like the ranger for its fluff that's cool though I'm not really going to be talking about that.   My thoughts on the Ranger are as follows, but here's something that sums it all up: They are basically a weaker fighter, here's why: They get the same proficiencies as a fighter except they trade heavy armor for an additional skill, that's... not entirely worth it, as a ranger you're trying to be either a tank or a glass cannon, not a skillmonkey. Next we have favored enemy, this as Jeremy Crawford said, it mostly a ribbon (basically a fluff thing that doesn't come up most of the time in play) "The ranger's Favored Enemy feature definitely has ribbon-like aspects." So, the iconic feature of the Ranger has been turned into something that has very low effectiveness in a game. Next we have favored terrain, this is mostly geared towards travel which I haven't seen a lot of groups use in their campaigns. There are a couple of cool things though on here: Difficult Terrain doesn't slow your groups travel, Your group can't become lost except for magical means, and While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ao they passed through this exact area. Out of the 6 bulletpoints, only around 1/2 are useful in a game with a group who doesn't use all the tiny random little things you can do during travel. Next, fighting style, in comparison to fighters, you get this one level later and without as many options. Spellcasting, this is something that kinda saves the ranger, the spells, so that's a pretty big boost to the effectiveness of a ranger. Next there's primeval awareness, this isn't that powerful of an ability honestly, if you're trying to track down a vampire: "Hey, so there's undead here but who knows if it's a vampire or even the vampire you're trying to find!" After that we have the subclasses, I'm not really going to go over these as most of us believe that the beast master is completely inferior to the hunter. After that, we have the extra attack which is a nice option, and more favored enemy and favored terrain. Land's Stride is next, for the most part, this really depends on your campaign. Are you the dungeon delving type, fighting over the rolling hills, or are you in a bog of some kind. I think for the most part this is a kinda bad feature, Favored Terrain improvement and then we have hide in plain sight. Basically, you spend one minute casting a second level spell that only works on you. That is... pretty useless. Favored Enemy improvement, and then we have vanish, basically it's as if you took an underpowered cunning action ability (this also sucks for dual wielders, like, a lot). Then we have feral senses (which is actually quite funny because it only works on invisible creatures, not creatures you can't see, invisible) but other then that, it's a pretty good ability, though in comparison to things other classes are getting like... Auto 20s for Strength checks (barbarian), magical secrets (bard), ability to cast spells while wild shaped (druid), or greater invisibility + greater stoneskin without concentration (monk, man that ability is OP) it is basically one of the worst (elusive [which is basically the opposite of this] or draconic presence [eh... it could be ok]) abilities for level 18. Finally, we have the capstone, the thing you've taken 20 levels for, the big sha-bang, it's +3-4 to your damage rolls 1/turn against a semi-rare kind of enemy... That's the worst capstone, and yes I think that's worse then the Bard one or the sorcerer one or the Monk one. It's that horrible...
#8 Ironxxx Jun 19, 2015 8:26:41	I think the errata, while welcome, muddied it a little more re: beastmaster. It seems the beast gets more freedom when you're not commanding it. This would seem to imply that it is capable of making it own decisions and could also be trained to drag you to safety and the like. Perhaps a pet with opposable thumbs could be trained to give you a potion! I think this also implies that without a command the pet can attack what it likes or what it is more likely to attack even while you're conscious but without you spending an action.   Ranger’s Companion (p. 93).If you are incapacitated or absent, your beast companion acts on its own, focusing on protecting you and itself. It never requires your command to use its reaction, such as when making an opportunity attack. Bestial Fury (p. 93).When you command the beast to take the Attack action, the beast can attack twice or take the Multiattack action if it has that action
#9 Mazzy Jun 19, 2015 8:32:42	The article never said they were going to "fix" the ranger. They said that everyone thought that the beastmaster ranger sucked, and that they would be using that feedback going forward in future class design. So if they make another pet class, it will probably not canibilize the PC's actions. So don't hold your breath. Things might change, but for now they have no plans to buff any of the lacklaster builds already published (wild mage, beastmaster, champion, etc.)
(Reply to #6) akr71	Mechatarrasque wrote:
(Reply to #9) jaden_stormtracker	Mazzy wrote:
#12 GladiusLegis Jun 19, 2015 12:23:45	Basically, I imagine some more alternative class features in an article down the road. I'd at least hope for a replacement for Primeval Awareness and that capstone.   As for the beast ... just introduce a spell similar to Find Familiar or Find Steed. That's how it should've been handled from the start, IMO.   Favored Enemy isn't going to change; the designers and article writers explicitly stated several times that it's not meant to be for combat (making that capstone even more of a headscratcher, as an aside). The Hunter's features are meant to reflect the Ranger's combat training against certain enemies.
(Reply to #10) Mechatarrasque	akr71 wrote:
#14 Ashrym Jun 19, 2015 15:05:37	One of the house rules I would recommend is an alternative capstone option used in one of the playtests.  Let rangers choose between the favored enemy capstone (I don't care for this one either but it can be useful following the campaign) or the natural terrain capstone where all terrain becomes considered favored terrain (I prefer this, personally).  This leaves favored enemies as more of a ribbon ability while favored terrain does include some decent benefits.   I have some points of disagreement regarding above comments.   1.  Rangers are a skill class and not just a weak fighter.  They have a bonus skill, conditional skill benefits that are decent, synergy with skill lists and key ability scores, and clear class abilities that enhance skills.  This is reminiscent of things like 3e's skill point mechanic or 1e's surprise benefits.  They lean more heavily towards combat than other class skills but they still maintain skill benefits as a class mechanic.  Animal companions can improve this mechanic.   2.  There are some strong animal companions in combat already.  A wolf or giant poisonous snake, for example.  A ranger giving up 1 attack and possible bonus action attack  limits the ranger's style options, but adding the base animal damage and mod damage plus proficiency damage plus attack riders twice when bestial fury becomes available gives reasonable damage options and doubles potential reactions having the pet per errata. A 2(2d4+2+4) with advantage and free prone checks is pretty decent.  A hunter can do more damage with the right feats etc but the point of the hunter is more damage.  I don't agree that a subclass needs more damage when it appears the subclass is meant to be a higher amount of utility.   3.  Hide in plain sight is not simply replicating a 2nd level spell.  Hide in plain sight isn't magical and therefore is not subject to mechanics that interact with magic, doesn't require spell slots, doesn't require concentration, and has a huge stacking bonus to go with  it.  Between hide in plain sight and pass without trace the ranger is one of the stealthiest classes in this edition and has the highest stealth ability for ambush tactics.  Hide in plain sight is often underrated.   4.  I disagree very strongly with the notion that a 1 or 2 hp familiar or a 19 hp war horse from the find steed spell can replace a beastmaster's animal compion.  They fail to scale hit points, armor class, attack rolls or damage rolls, and do not scale proficiency bonuses.  Anyone thinking they will take their 1 hp owl with 11 AC familiar into combat just because the DM will let it use a help action without needing a bonus action is going to be resummoning a lot of familiars.  I'll take my wolf companion with free prone to give advantage to all melee without any bonus action over that owl anyday because the wolf does damage simultaneously and has both hitpoints and AC bonuses.  The find steed is a bit better (regular mounts don't get an attack command at all) because it's intelligent so it can operate under it's own actions, has more hp than a familiar, and can wear barding but a find steed warhorse is still limited to 19hp, 1 attack of 2d6+4, and no additional bonus to accuracy so it's still not a better overall option.  The animal companion scaling features make find steed and find familar both poor alternatives at higher levels.   5.  Primeval awareness is also underrated.  Outside of favored terrain it's rather limited but circumstantially useful.  In favored terrain it becomes much more useful.  The difference is in the wording of the ability.  It's "for 1 minute per level of the spell slot you expend, you can sense whether the following types of creatures are present within 1 mile of you (or within up to 6 miles if you are in your favored terrain): aberrations, celestials, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, and undead."  The key difference is within vs within up to.  Within up to could be 40 ft radius if the ranger chooses and meets the up to 6 miles portion of that criteria.  It doesn't matter if the ranger doesn't know specifics if, for example, he's tracking them and already knows specifics from that feature and merely wants to check to see if the creatures are in the area or not; he already knows direction from tracking.  The duration means knowing when the creatures enter the range so the ranger could use it as a proximity alarm in darkness, dense fog, or foliage before anyone in the party sees or hears them as another example.  It's one of those abilities that has less to do with what it does and more to do with what is done with it in conjunction with other abilities or circumstances.  It doesn't take much to determine if the graveyard 100 ft away has undead in it if the ranger uses primeval awareness sneaking closer to it and the ability triggers a hit when the graveyard comes into the selected range.
(Reply to #2) OnionDruid	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #15) Yunru	OnionDruid wrote:
#17 GladiusLegis Jun 21, 2015 12:29:22	Except in a story that doesn't fall apart once you try to make sense of it. </end anti-BI rant>   kekeke
(Reply to #15) Ashrym	OnionDruid wrote:
#19 zingbobco000 Jun 22, 2015 17:05:02	jaden_stormtracker wrote:
#20 FunkySpunk Jun 22, 2015 23:34:09	The Ranger, as currently constructed, will never see table-time in my groups, unless a Fighter wants to dip into another class for another fighting style, and doesn't want to go into Paladin.    It is underpowered compared to other classes.    First 5e game I ever played in, I was a half orc champion. There was a ranger in the party, who had been a big damage dealer in melee (very high str roll, while I was using point buy), and after one session, he looked at the damage output my character was dishing, and he said he wished he had played a Fighter.    The beastmaster is the worst though. I understand, if they changed the rule so the ranger and the beast could both take full actions, how it would overpower the beastmaster. Ugh. It's a tough call.
#21 GladiusLegis Jun 23, 2015 3:44:04	FunkySpunk wrote:
#22 mellored Jun 23, 2015 5:25:28	They simply need to add a "revivify beast" as a level 2 spell.     The beast does enough damage and adds enough utility (paticularly now that It just has the issue of beast dying and leaving the ranger "disarmed" for a day while it finds a new beast.     I also feel that both rangers could use a "domain spells" feature to pad out their utility a bit more.   And make primeval awareness a level 1 spell.   Beastmaster: 3: animal friendship, speak with animals. 5: Revivify Beast (see above), Warding Bond. 9: conjure animals, protection from energy 13: stone skin, dominate beast 17: Rary’s Telepathic Bond, ???   Hunter: 3: Hunter's Mark, Primeval Awareness (as a level 1 ranger spell). 5: Pass without a trace, locate animal or plants 9: Nondetect, Water Walk 13: Freedom of Movement, Locate Creature 17:Tree Stride, Scrying.
#23 Treantmonklvl20 Jun 23, 2015 6:26:43	The latest Sage Advice makes it clear they won't be "rebalancing" the rules with errata, but instead will maybe do a revision (5.5) at some point where balance will be addressed, or offer rebalance options through Unearthed Arcana.  The article calls out the beastmaster Ranger as something they are already aware requires attention, but again, have made it clear that they won't be rebalancing with errata.   According to the article, all errata published was to fix errors where the text had mistakes, or where designer intent was not clear.
#24 ChrisCarlson Jun 23, 2015 6:40:29	FunkySpunk wrote:
#25 Ashrym Jun 23, 2015 15:04:47	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #25) GrapplingRogueMonkey	I am likely to agree with many of you on the beastmaster, I think Wizards was worried about letting a player manage two things unbalance the game. That said, a small ranger with a giant owl and a shortbow/lance can be pretty crazy, especially crossclassed with fighters or rogues.   For the Hunter, I started an arguement in a fighter thread saying that a Hunter could outshoot a fighter(to be fair, I think the jury might still be out on that but I definitely think it would be a close match), and here is why. -Same +2 to archery -Gets sharpshooter for wicked damage -And can either get hordebreaker to occasionally hit another target or giant slayer to really ruin one monsters day. -Then volley comes in and I think there is a good chance that the ranger could outshoot the fighter here. Granted this, and horde breaker only works against multiple opponents but I think with the Ranger's spells there is less to worry from single opponents. Anyways with Swiftquiver the fighter doesn't stand a chance, but requires your concentration and frankly is only really worth it if your against a single baddy, want to compete with the fighter, and don't want to use one of your more useful spells. -HERE is the kicker, your spells are so battlefield control oriented that the fighter just cant compare. Ensaring strike, Entangle, Spike and Plant Growth. Entangled baddies let you pop them for the extra Sharpshooter damage with abandon, and they can't get anywhere near you. Then of course there is the plethora of summoning spells. Constricting snake is a favorite of mine because who doesn't want 8 chances to restain the baddies. Of course that doesn't compare to the ability to summon 8 pixies. 7 Polymorphs+1 Sleep equals 1 turn combat broken. OR Entangle, confusion, phantasmal force. Plus who doesn't want the option to get dispel magic or fly.   Let me see another class get that kind of archery AND battlefield control.
#27 mrpopstar Jun 24, 2015 0:20:19	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #22) Mechatarrasque	mellored wrote:
#29 Marandahir Jun 24, 2015 11:06:30	Same problem with the Investitute spells – would be perfect for Warden Paladins, since they emulate the Warden's Guardian Forms, but they're all level 6. Shucks. But I like Awaken for that level 17 spell for the BM. By that epic level in the game, why NOT have your Companion gain humanoid-type intelligence? You're nearly a God, why not have your animal be just as fantastic? I think it's a swell idea. And besides, it still acts on its own, unless you use your command on it; the DM still has control of it otherwise (but no longer can follow the "would Lassie do it?" question and now has to treat it as a DMPC that can be controlled by one of the PCs if s/he uses his or her action to control the DMPC beast).
#30 mellored Jun 24, 2015 11:35:39	Awaken sounds pretty good, i'll use that.