OK, I realize this is really late to the table, but my defense is that I was really not feeling like it until about two weeks ago when I started this:
Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards (Part 1)
Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards (Part 2)
Hope it is useful to some of you. (and hopefully the links work)
UPDATE: Elemental Evil options now included in both parts. Skip to the bottom to see this content.
UPDATE 2: Below is a simple graph of Blast Spell damage, pretty much ripping off TheBigHouse's excellent guide except I've changed the Analysis somewhat. The Blue line I call the "Good Damage Line" and it connects the damage done by a fireball at level 3 and a Meteor Swarm at level 9 with a straight line. I've then plotted some "great damage spells" as well, to explain why I'm not convinced they are so great.
A Treantmonk Wizard guide? The cycle continues.
Reading now.
Formatting mishap on the Grease spell.
Agree with Flaming Sphere being green, in my play experience it's very efficient. Even against a single powerful opponent, it's powerful if they can't get away from it so it hits them twice a round.
Hold Person is a death sentence, they won't last a round if the BSF and GC smash em for auto-crits. I'd prep it unless I don't expect to see any people that day.
I'd like a bigger post on variant humans outside of the guide. I haven't really thought about it, but they are *very* competitve.
FaustianHero wrote:
Funny seeing this here, I've used your guides in the past for pathfinder. >.< Can't wait to read!
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Okay...
Disagreements first.
Alert is slightly offended by being below Warcaster and Resilient (Con). Alert allows you to get take the battlefield by the short and curlies from round one and will effect every instance the DM says "Roll Initiative". Warcaster and Resilient (Con) are great, but their primary benefit occurs *when you get hit*. Isn't it a better idea to establish control the battlefield and not get hit? I'm not saying it's better, but it is at least equal.
Observant should at least get mentioned for those who start with an odd Int score. Maybe not a high rating, but at least a rating. It is the only +1 Int feat that isn't "+1 Int and useless trap fluff".
Evocation school should probably not be green... I would put it at Purple or Orange, depending on how the DM reads Overchannel. It's the wizard school that encourages wizards to believe they should be putting out damage. Don't buy into that crap. IMO, there are 3 ways to go... optimized conjuration or illusion, prefectly fine other schools, or evocation. I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning, but I use the same separation for the multiclassing... conjuration or illusion are for pure wizards. the rest are good for quick dips into the wizard class. I could probably be convinced that Transmutation is not as good as the other "Middle Class" schools, but at least it doesn't actively distract you from doing what is best, like Evocation. Maybe Purple for Transmutation and Orange/Purple for Evocation.
For spells - are you going to include the Elemental Evil stuff?
SterlingRat:
1) I offend people all the time, I guess offending Feats is the next step. As for Alert, I recognize why it's good, I just don't think quite as good in this case
2) It's better than the other +1 Int feats for sure. My recommendation is to start with a 16 Int though.
3) Funny, on Reddit there are posters who think it shouldn't be green either - but they are arguing for blue.
4) I wasn't, but I'm getting a lot of requets. I'll think about it. I would have to work off a PDF though as I don't have the module, and I don't like that.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
Very good guide. I agree with the majority of it. If there was any part of it where I had to express my strongest disagreement it would have to be your rating of Otto's Irresistible Dance. That spell is definitely GOD TIER and I must insist you look into it again. First, you are correct in that it takes effect IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT A SAVE. However, in order to even get a chance to make the saving throw, the target MUST SPEND THEIR ACTION to do so. This means that not only are you giving your entire party advantage on their attack rolls against the target (this spell is basically greater invisibility on the whole party), the target is also wasting their next turn just to merely have a chance at getting rid of it. Also the thought of a colossal size Dragon tap dancing is hilarious.
Ancient Dragon? Look at all those attacks he gets. Sure that Ancient Dragon is going to auto save with legendary resistance, but he's going to waste his action doing so (and lose all his attacks). If he doesn't waste his action, all those attacks are made with disadvantage. So until his turn comes up, the Rogue is getting free sneak attacks, any effect that requires a DEX saving throw is likely to burn through its legendary resistance, and when everyone is rolling twice for each attack, you get more crits (Divine Smite crit ftw). I think this spell perfectly fits into your theme of a god character that empowers his team and I ask that you bump it up to blue or at the very least green.
All that said, your guide is great and I'm glad you wrote it. I was already taking most of the options you rated highly, but I also saw some things in your guide that I hadn't considered.
Evocation = Blue.
Evocation is the best damaging potential caster by FAR, but only once it reaches level 10. Everyone focuses on Overchannel while ignoring the godlike damage you dish out once you add your Int mod to ALL Evocation spells. Even Sorcs can't touch that.
Look at spells like Storm Sphere. That's 3 opportunities, per turn, to add +5 damage to everything you hit, regardless of damage type. But the absolute BEST is that it adds your Int mod to each bolt of a Magic Missile. A default MM goes from an average of 10.5 Force to 25.5. On a spell that never misses. Blow a level 5 slot and you're doing ~60 damage that is guaranteed hit and guaranteed not to be resisted. Throw in casting Melfs Meteors beforehand and that's an extra 24 damage if they fail their saves. 84 damage in one turn using not that much in resources.
Admittedly, overchanneling Scorching Ray = 102 fire damage. Elemental Affinity (Fire) to burn through resistance and you're easily out damaging Sorcs due to the versatility of adding your Int to every Evocation spell, rather than just the Fire based ones.
reddaemon wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
I'm a bit curious about the Blue rating for Time Stop. It seems like the Concentration mechanic puts a pretty big limit on what you can do during those rounds. What would you recommend doing during those rounds to justify using a 9th level spell?
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Okay, I never really looked at Charop builds before. The gods know how I criticize those evil powergamers antiRPers. But, I am becoming more open. I am real interested in this build for the wizard that optimizes the party and deals no damage. I looked over your spell analysis. What spells do you recomend, and are there any useful spells against these BBEG's with Legendary Resistances. I'm thinking animate objects to draw attacks away, but I really curious about this teamwork build. I know how I would do it in PF and 2E and B/X, but I am kinda at a loss in 5E. Plus work is killing me the last couple weeks.
BrunsenBrurner wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Hey Treantmonk, great guide! I really enjoyed your Pathfinder wizard guide and have been looking forward to this.
You asked for some ideas for the Arcane gate spell. Since dimension door can only transport you and one other person at a time, moving your entire party across a chasm or some other obstacle can cost you several 4th level spell slots as you transport one person, travel back, and repeat. Arcane gate allows you to do so with a single spell cast. The spell can also be used to devastating effect in combat with some ingenuity. Since characters can split their movement in 5e before and after their action, it can be used for hit and run attacks. You can also put it behind a foe, set the exit gate somewhere dangerous (off a cliff edge, over a pool of lava, in a sealed room, or even high up in the air). Then, the fighter or someone else can push the bad guy through it. Set the exit gate 100+ feet up in the air and you've just done 20d6 falling damage to the foe.
Blindness/Deafness has one big advantage over most other save-or-suck effects - it doesn't require concentration. This allows you to blind enemies while you're concentrating on another spell. It's true that many creatures have good con saves, but there are also many that do not, and if you're already concentrating on Evard's black tentacles or something else, you can usually afford to spend a 2nd level spell slot to try. You have much to gain and little to lose.
Enlarge/Reduce can be very handy. It can be used as a combat buff/defbuff, but I think the spell shines most for its utility. Need to get through a locked door and don't want to alert the entire dungeon with a very loud noise? Forget the crappy knock spell. Just cast reduce on the door!
I'd actually suggest switching the ratings of fear and hypnotic pattern. Fear causes the enemies to flee, which is incredibly annoying (and dangerous). I'd much rather make them stand there catatonic than run off through the dungeon and come back with a bunch of reinforcements (or just escape altogether, depriving me of their loot). Hypnotic pattern doesn't offer saving throws to break free on later rounds. It does break on damage, but that's not a very big deal as you can just coordinate with your team to take them out one at a time. Even if the enemies take the time and actions to slap their friends out of it, they each just lost an entire turn - well worth the cost of a 3rd level slot.
Bestow Curse is kind of crappy at 3rd level, but at 5th level, it no longer requires concentration to maintain. Since it's a really nasty debuff, that makes it worth considering, even though it does have the drawback of being touch range. It's not a blue spell by any means, but I don't think it deserves to be red.
Disintegrate does not destroy magic items. It does destroy gold or other mundane loot, though.
The material component for forcecage is annoying, but like identify and chromatic orb, it isn't consumed on cast. So it's just a one time cost.
Gate isn't very good by itself, but it does provide you with creatures to cast planar binding on. Just gate them into a magic circle to trap them, and you have yourself a minion.
FallingIcicle wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonk I always enjoy your guides and this one is no different. Anyway I believe Phantasmal Force is much better than you have rated it. You rate Maze amazing but Phantasmal Force is basically Maze with a saving throw, but it is a 2nd level spell not an 8th level one. Read the description again it doesn't allow two saves, it is one save, then the target can subsequently spend their action to make an investigation check to end the effect. Almost no enemies have proficiency in investigation so it essentially becomes an intelligence check exactly the same as maze. By the time you can cast maze the DC for your Phantasmal Force is probably around 18 maybe more if you got a nice magic item. This means it is only 2 dc below Maze but you also have a bunch of 2nd level slots and only one 8th level slot.
I have seen Phantasmal Force in play and basically for any monster with negative intelligence modifier it is a save or die.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Animate tiny silver pieces when hunting werecreatures
RulesJD wrote:
Glad to see you back among the living, TM. Great wizard guide as always
I'm not sure if I agree with the Variant Human analysis. Or at least, I don't think it's true for all classes. As more feats come out it probably will be, but at the moments you're generally giving up a point of stats + whatever other racial abilities for a feat (because other than Resilient, the feats that give stat bumps are mostly fluff), and I know I haven't found myself wanting to do that in *every* situation. Monks stick out especially.
Okay - I thought more about evocation school. I think I'm giving it the "My Experience" rating rather than the "Possibilities" rating. In my experience, I played with one evocation wizard and the game fell apart at Level 9, so I never actually saw the level 10 or 14 feature in play. What I did see was an evocation wizard and a sorcerer side by side and the wizard could not keep up with damage, but was extremely effective at 1) Silent Image to grant advantage to anyone using ranged attacks and disadvantage to enemy ranged attackers. 2) Grease & Evard's to keep opponents distant and give advantage to the melee combatants. 3) A rediculous amount of out-of-combat utility by having almost every ritual on the wizard list available with 10 minutes notice.
That means that my experience with an Evoker would be entirely before RulesJD says they become most effective and as one part of a large group with a damage-specialist sorceror next to him. The best way for him to do damage was to give advantage to the Archery Fighter, Rogue and Sorcerer by shrouding them in illusionary mist.
That was also during season one, so Storm Sphere wasn't on the table at all.
That said - I still can't give it Blue. A Wizard can be so much more than damage... Illusionist at Level 14 becomes Green Lantern (make anything with silent image & weave a little shadow magic to make it real) - and at level 18 it doesn't even cost a spell slot. Divination has 2 or 4 times where they can simply decide someone's dice roll... not allow a reroll or give advantage... just decide "this is what you rolled". Abjuration is crazy - a wizard that prevents damage and can stick it to the worst enemy spellcasters with counterspells and dispell magic. Conjuration can just make whatever it is they need at almost any time they need it. Then there's the necro army... but... well, I guess you don't lose access to the spells, just the bonus aspects. And if you only have two other players at the table to make use of your crowd control spells, you will probably be called upon to actually get a little dirty yourself. I suppose I could see it green, like TM does... but not blue. Not while Illusionist exists and is only blue. And with Divination at green... I can't see Evocation being over Divination.
RulesJD wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Great guide Treantmonklvl20. I loved your older edition guides too. Thanks for all the effort you've put into these.
I saw you rated Divination as green, and that's fair. But if you haven't tried playing a diviner in 5th edition yet, YOU ABSOLUTELY SHOULD. Portent is more fun than should be legally allowed. I'm playing a Variant Human Divination Wizard, and I took the Lucky feat at first level. I find that seeing into the future and manipulating reality fits perfectly into the God-Wizard flavor.
Using portent to cause enemies to fail saves is pretty obvious and it can be a game changer. But you can also use it to affect the initiative order, cause you or an ally to hit, cause you or an ally to succeed a save (including concentration saves and death saving throws) For most overland travel, this daily power gets a buff because you aren't usually in more than one encounter per day.
Portent is even useful outside of combat. While in town, you can usually afford to wait until the signs are favorable before pursuing a given action. The stars do not favor us yet. Let us wait to sell our spoils until they do... Wait for a high roll and THEN go negotiate with the merchant. Soon the PC's will be asking for your advice for anything important that they do. If that doesn't smack of old-school god-like oracling, I don't know what does. 
We're only level 3 so far, but already I've proven my worth. We fought one deadly encounter that by all rights we should have lost. If not for Portent, we certainly would have. We were level 3 and were fighting a level 7 enemy wizard, and two CR 2 berzerkers. I used Lucky to get ahead of the enemy wizard in initiative. I caused him to fail his saving throw against Tasha's hideous laughter. So in round 1, he falls prone and starts laughing. I advise the party to surround him but don't attack. With Tasha's Hideous Laughter, the target doesn't get to act or make a saving throw until the END of his next turn.
The wizard fails his save two more times giving us two more rounds to finally drop one of the big guys. Then we wail on the wizard at advantage on the round when he does save. It's not enough to drop him and he casts improve invis to get the heck out of there. He's pissed so next round he haughtily taunts us and hucks a fireball. I caused the bard to autosucceed with my second portent, and the bard casts sleep hoping we did enough damage to make it viable... It was!
I didn't do a single point of damage that fight, but everyone at the table knew I won that fight for us and we all cheered.
- Eck
I really like Wizard Guides even though i've never played one because it's amost a guide of Spells with how many you have to go through so i would love to thank you so much for the work you put into this :-)
@Eck Good story.
FatherLiir wrote:
Eck wrote:
gignere wrote:
The spell minor illusion is limited to a 5 foot cube. How can you even create a wall to separate you from an enemy.
What do I miss here?
DSZ wrote:
@HermanTheWize, TreantmonkLvl20 - Thanks guys.
My party was fighting some giant octopii in a river (two of them) and the party druid cast Faerie Fire on them, trying to give us advantage on our attacks to cancel out the disadvantage from them being under the water. Well, I asked if I could see them, the DM said Yes. I said, OK ... I rolled a 3 and a 6 for my portent this morning, so those guys just rolled a 3 and a 6 for their saving throw. -nods- It was an awesome feeling.
Same character, different day: I cast Polymorph on a half-dragon Ettin and said "OK, make your Wisdom save. Oh wait, he rolled a 5." He turned into a squirrel. And I told the rest of the party to just ignore the squirrel.
Something I noticed in the guide, you marked shocking grasp as bad because it is close, I would propse consideration for slightly better reason as following, when you succeed on an attack with shocking grasp the target of the attack cannot make reactions ( an attack of opportunity is a reaction) therefore it is away to get out of combat and deal some damage in the process vs. using your action for disengage and then moving away.
just a thought
Lord_Kadarian wrote:
Lord_Kadarian wrote:
gignere wrote:
UPDATE: Both parts of the guide have been updated with Elemental Evil options. Skip to the bottom to read these parts.
OH SNAP! A NEW TREATMONK GUIDE!! Thanks man, I love your work!
Rokku wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
i don't see toughness as good.
+2 con gives you the same HP per day (counting your hit dice), as well as boosting your saving throw.
inspiring leader giver you +1 THP per level per short rest, or 3 per level, plus it works for your entire party.
healer feat is similar, 3 HP per level, for the entire party.
the only time i see toughness as any good is if you only fight 1 battle a day.
1. There is no RAI vs RAW debate regarding Empowered Evocation and Magic Missile. Jeremy Crawford is the undisputed (even Mike Mearls says turn to JC for rulings) source of RAW and RAI. Does EE apply per bolt? Yes. It's right there in the wording, and the only people that disagree simply don't want Wizards to have that kind of fire power for whatever reason. That, or they don't understand the difference between what it means to roll 1d4+1 3 times and 3d4+4 for damage rolls.
2. Divination wizards are (sadly) HIGHLY dependent on DM discretion. In my opinion, they can potentially be the strongest build hands down. The save or suck spells like Suggestion come online almost immediately and only permit 1 save. If your DM rules that "man this combat is going so well for your minions, you should go lie down and take a nap for 8 hours" is a reasonable Suggestion, then Diviners win every BBEG fight unless your BBEG is immune to charm. But there are still enough other non-charm based save or suck spells (ORS for starters) that completely handwave fights if you can force the bad guy to fail a save. Legendary Resistences and not rolling useful portent dice are really the Divination wizard's only weaknesses....if your DM agrees.
*edit* And I'm not your buddy, pal.
mellored wrote:
Xanchairothoss wrote:
Just wanted to point out that with Ice Knife, the 5' radius burst happens whether you hit or miss with the initial attack. It says right in the spell description. How well did you read these spells, Treantmonk?
GladiusLegis wrote:
+2 con gives you +1 HP and +1HP when you spend a hit die. so as long as you get a short rest you can get a total of +2 per day per level.
though i suppose you only get 1/2 your hit dice back per long rest, so 1.5 if you fight concecutive days. but it still helps your saves and checks so i'd still put it above toughness.
the only time i would suggest toughness for anyone is after 20 con, and if your allies already have healer and inspiring leader, and you already have lucky. so... basicly never.
mellored wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
mellored wrote:
Xanchairothoss wrote:
mellored wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Gonna throw down my 2 cents on Otto's Irresistable Dance. We don't have to agree that it's a great spell, but I definitely think that Brown is a little unfair.
Quick comparison of the facts:
(+ = Positive * = Nuetral - = Negative)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter
+ Incapacitated condition
+ No typing - just requires a 5 or higher intelligence
* Prone Condition (Provides advantage on melee attacks, but screws over your ranged friends.)
- Wisdom Saving Throw to connect
- Wisdom Saving Throw at the end of each turn (No action)
- Wisdom Saving Throw (With Advantage) when damaged
Otto's Irresistable Dance
+ No saving throw (initially)
+ Requires action to make a save
+ Disadvantage on Dexterity Saving Throws
+ Advantage on ALL attack rolls (Ranged and Melee)
+ Does not allow saving throw if dealt damage
* Movement effectively becomes zero
* Disadvantage on Attack Rolls
* Verbal Components only (Circumstantial, but worth mentioning.)
- Charm typing
- Target can still make actions (Spells and abilities like fire breath suffer no penalty)
Mechanically speaking, Otto's Dance effectively causes the Restrain condition, which is admittedly inferior in most ways to Tasha's Laughter. Actually a better lower level comparison for Otto's Dance would be Max's Earthen Grasp, Web, or Evard's Black tentacles - except the Dance targets Wisdom as well as creatures that might be otherwise be immune to restrain but not Charm (Though any example I found in the current monster manual is too low CR to consider a 6th level slot.) The primary difference though is that the Dance does not allow a save - and that's the key difference that justifies the 6th level slot in my humble opinion.
Otto's Dance will work for 2 turns if Tasha's Laughter even has the chance to work one, and as long as they're attempting to break the dance it's almost as good as incapacitate (They technically get their reaction and bonus actions, but it's pretty close.) Best of all, your party can wail on the target with no worries of breaking the spell, and EVEN BETTER the dexterity disadvantage aspect lets you lay down another spell on top of that, though the concentration flag limits this to things like Disintegrate (But if you've got a buddy with a dex save effect you can combo it up.)
Otto's Dance will be less effective vs. Casters or creatures with abilities, but any round they don't waste their action trying to break the spell is another round of Advantage on hits for your party. And also, since the save doesn't occur until the creature can take an action to allow it, depending on your initiative order you can get advantage for your party against a creature with Legendary Resistance for at least a turn - gauranteed.
Anyway, I really like the spell. It's main flaw in my mind is the Charm typing, but species don't have innate immunities in 5e, meaning some undead are even affected by it, making it less of a chump feature.
A couple of other things worth pointing out (Off the top of my head)...
Feeblemind has a potential exploit if you're a necromancer - since it lasts 30 days you can potentially feeblemind a more powerful undead and get a super powered ally as a result. I like to use the Dracolich as my example on this one - though you have to burn through 3 Legendary Resistances to gaurantee you catch your pokemon. Command Undead lets you get a Beholder Zombie without Feeblemind though and that's pretty sweet.
Mirage Arcane becomes the best spell evar for Illusionists. 10 day duration (So no concentration) and 1 square mile area.... If you're dungeon crawling you can turn the entire dungeon into your playground, mold the illusion to your whims as you go and make anything you want real or not real as you please - all without using a single spell slot (past the initial cast of course.)
Arcane Ward is something you obviously already like, but did it occur to you that damage is dealt to the shield and not you? That means no concentration check if it doesn't pierce the shield. Another thing to mention is that if you're a Warlock/Wizard you can get Armor of Shadows and cast Mage Armor on yourself over and over to recharge the shield. Probably not worth your 6th and 7th slot and signature spells, but worth mentioning.
mellored wrote:
RulesJD wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
mellored wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
I'm relatively surprised that Mold Earth got the title of worse cantrip of the four elemental control spells.
First, regarding what defines "loose earth", if we look at other spells that use this wording we see that Earth Tremors does when it's defining what becomes difficult terrain. However it doesn't just say loose earth, it says loose earth or stone which to my mind seems to indicate that what the writer meant by "loose earth" is soil/dirt in general (as "loose earth" is indeed the definition of dirt/soil). It wouldn't make much sense for the spell to work on stone and freshly turned fields but not normal dirt.
With that aside I want to talk about the merits of the spell itself. The two secondary effects (drawing in the earth and making difficult terrain, limit 2 squares) are at best cute little things that might or might not have much purpose. What IMO is the main power of the spell is the "excavating" action. This is way more than simply a little hole in the ground. This spell excavates a 5x5x5 cube of dirt and moves it 5 feet (whether it stays a cube or crumbles into a mound of earth would be up to the DM). Right away you're looking at properties like total cover (5 feet is more then enough height/width), blocking projectiles or other things (10,000lbs of earth [1cuft of earth is roughly 80-100lbs and you're moving 125cuft] roughly 5ft thick should block most things), creating trenches/pits, ect, ect...
Admittedly this spell is fairly dependant on having a defensive position or time to prepare (not to mention a natural setting with dirt floors rather than a stone cave/castle/town street/whatever) and is hardly applicable to every combat situation but even so I think it has a great deal of potential.
I imagine "loose earth" to be anything you could manage with 5 strength, a shovel, and a few minutes of digging.
So not a stone wall.
Yes it is limited but you could also move a person standing on topof it with no save.
Move the person/monster/etc. in question into quicksand or any hazardous terrain at hand.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
TSRD wrote:
DSZ wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
TSRD wrote:
How about thinking of this another way:
In 4e burrow speed was full in "loose earth" and half in "solid stone." Was there arguments/clarifications as to what defined "loose earth" or was it simply assumed to be normal soil? Or did you rule that "packed earth" (maybe clay) blocked/slowed down burrowing? I mean can anyone point to a part of d&d where "loose earth" didn't mean normal soil (or where "loose stone" was ever used)? I'm honestly curious.
TSRD wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
both
loose (earth and stone)
and
(loose earth) and stone
are valid readings. there is litterally no way to tell. it's a pretty common bug of the english language.
TSRD wrote:
mellored wrote:
you are determining which one is more likely based on your own past experiences, not the sentence. maybe my mother has a favorite plastic salad and was alergic to the real thing. i would then read it differently.
we simply have to ask for clarification from the devs.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
mellored wrote:
I'm wondering about the relative value of Rope Trick and Leomunds Hut.
I'm thinking the real value of Rope Trick is guaranteeing not just the entire party's encounter powers and partial heal up, but also a possible time based Debuff of every monster.
I mean if Bless is a good buff, what about 4 of them?
Why is Melf’s minute meteors (evocation) dark green, instead of light green.
HermanTheWize wrote:
Hey Treantmonk,
What's your opinion of Divination specialization in a game where you virtually never use Divination spells? I personally feel like most of them ruin the game and am unlikely to cast them....yet portent seems fun both thematically and optimization-wise.
Re: Hold Person/Monster: I don't think the save every round should be considered that much of a factor in the rating. Those spells only have to last long enough for the Rogue, Paladin or Barbarian to get some whacks in. Any failed saves and extra rounds of that spell after are just gravy, AFAIC.
For a non evocations wizard, would you take minute meteors or fireball?
Asyrin wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Melfs is good if you can cast it before battle.
So it's probably best for divination wizards who can scout more easily.
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
It just depends on the situation.
There's no point in casting hynotic pattern on a hord of 2 HP kobolds when you can blow them up with Melfs.
But a small group of orcs and the situation is reversed.
We have a Way of the Fist Monk, Light Cleric and me(Divination Wizard). (And sometimes a Paladin, but I don't count on that.)
Choices for 3rd level:
Animate Dead
Hypnotic Pattern
Fireball
Melf's Minute Meteors
Fly
Leomund Tiny Hut
These are my choices, well the ones I want want to take, for level 5 & 6.
Which spells would you take, and what order would you take them.
Note: Just becasue I don't get the spells imiediatly, doesn't mean I can never get them. My DM will allow me to quest to obtain new spells.
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Since we have a light cleric, a reasonable blaster in his own, I was gonna go CC mostly(but want back-up daamge just incase). So I'm planning on taking 1 asap. I'll only get the otehr if I find a scroll with it or a wizard willing to teach me.
HermanTheWize wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Note that Mirage Arcana is the ultimate tool for a Wizard that takes the School of Illusions: A large, mallable, concentration free area that lasts for 10 days that you can make parts of real come the 14th level.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Remember that wizards can get extra spells and just keep them in their book.
So you might not prepare melfs every day, you might keep it in your book for the day you know your going to fight hordes of creatures that are easier to blow up then control.
Yunru wrote:
mellored wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
sudsboy wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
sudsboy wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
I don't think you give Shocking Grasp the props it deserves. Shocking Grasp should never be a wizard's go-to damage cantrip. It should be kept as a reserve cantrip for those times when you want to get out of melee. If it hits, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from the target for movement. Then again, it could always work for a melee cantrip for those dwarven wizards in medium (or heavy) armor.
Disengage may be situationally better, but it is a useful spell if you have nothing else you want to pick.
Kalani wrote:
Thanks for the write. Like many other have said, I've went over your notes for various Pathfinder classes for information, Magus comes to mind with the STR or Dex build.
Circle of Death and Horrid Wilting do not deserve the energetic panning they got.
Circle of Death does less damage to undead. If you are playing a necromancer, or more likely are a DM building a lich encounter, a party-friendly massive AoE is great. Targeting Con is likewise not that bad on an NPC lich, as many PCs will not be trained in con saves, and you don't have to worry about rogues and mounts with evasion. And while covering a massive area might not seem relevant in most encounters against 1-6 enemies, there are campaigns that occasionally try out massive battlefields of armies clashing.
Not all spells are designed for the standard predictable encounter. Circle of Death has its niche. It does not deserve a rating lower than Bestow Curse, which is the worst spell.
Mazzy wrote:
Fair point. I never noticed that Zombies and Skeletons don't resist necrotic, although Abi-dalzim's Horrid Wilting does specify that it doesn't harm undead. I guess cloudkill is a lot better than Circle of Death for necromancers and liches. I know your guide is for PCs, my concern is just saying a spell is terrible and pointing out all the ways it is bad for PCs when it is clearly designed for NPC bad guys (circle of death is not very heroic sounding) seems unfair. I don't know why I am concenered about the feelings of a spell in a book, but there it is.
Bestow curse is really really bad though. The duration basically prevents it from doing what it is supposed to do. You can't really use it to curse someone in dramatic flare (fool, I shall curse your line unto the end of...this minute!) At level 5 it might start looking better, but then why is it level 3 to begin with? And why waste a slot for a mildly annoying non-concentration spell? Wouldn't lots of damage be more annoying? I just don't see any time when this is an effective spell. But I'm digressing.
Mazzy wrote:
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the revision of evocation wizards.
HermanTheWize wrote:
HermanTheWize wrote:
Just curious, why don't you recommend touch spells?
A touch spell reads as "Using your familiar, cast at range." If you picked something like owl, the owl doesn't leave you until it goes to deliver the attack and does so without provoking attacks of opportunity.
For example, as a low level control wizard I often used shocking grasp as a way to spend my action granting a higher damage ranged character free disengage.
It's risky for familars to be used in combat. They die easily.
But yes, it has it's uses.
I've gotten mileage out of using Shocking Grasp with the Owl familiar's Flyby, as a Control effect usually once every other combat. Also to let the shtupid Paladin (and shtupidly played) get out of the way before dying.
Asyrin wrote:
I saw in the guide that you recommend the pyrotechnics/Flaming spere combo. Pyrotechnics say's it puts out the flame when cast, so aren't you losing the spell when you do this? Not saying it's not a good combo, but I'd think casting 2 lvl 2 spells that get you a small bit of damage and a possible blind not as effective as the rating suggests.
maybe I'm missing something, or wrong though.
madbear5462 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
madbear5462 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
madbear5462 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
sudsboy wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Hey Treantmonk,
thanks a lot for your guide! I think you really give great advice!
I have a little trouble distinguishing the blue from the purple as I am slightly color blind, so please bear that in mind. The change in color code take a little to get used to.
Some small things I have noticed:
All the abjurer features are green or blue, yet abjurer is only green. I was just wondering why.
Contingency does not seem to consume the matrial component. Other spells specifically state if the component is consumed so I would assume Contingency does not.
Silent image has a new significant downside imho: The need to spend actions to move the thing (I would definitely assume minor image is stationary for that reason).
I do not know if I understood Blink correctly but I thought it allows you to move after entering the ethereal plane. Afaik ethereal creatures can move through pretty much any object other then walls of force so this might double as movement spell. It also works vs monsters that can't be fooled by illusions and it doesn't require concentration.
Transmute Rock (to mud) might be better then you give it credit for. Strength save every round or be restrained with AOE and a little bonus damage seems fine for me, even better then the Pathfinder version imho (the movement penalty is close enough to the Pathfinder version, 7 ft for 30 ft base speed). Low strength foes will have their problems. It also doesn't require concentration.
Fog Cloud requires concentration, so "4) Protect your concentration on spells by making you hard to target" can't be done. I think it becomes a rather mediocre use of your concentration slot later on.
Reverse Gravity doesn't sound very different from the Pathfinder version. To get a save. you still need some kind of object to hold on to.
It would also help if you could provide a quick rundown on familiar options. The "A character can only help if the task is one he could attempt alone" (PHB P. 175) kind of limits how the familiar can help. Whether your familiar can help in combat seems to be up to debate as well.
Sorry for typos, my FF spell checker doesn't work here.
SpoCk0nd0pe1 wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
Tbh, I wouldn't let a familliar help in combat. This issue is probably open to debate but since a familiar explicitly cannot attack I doubt it could help with an attack roll as it is technically something the familiar cannot do itself. Sure, "distracting" technically isn't "attacking" but I would argue that the actual activities required to be a distraction (fainting and poking) qualify as attacking because combat in D&D is kind of abstract anyway.
The familiar should be able to help with Stealth, Perception and maybe Slight of Hand.
SpoCk0nd0pe1 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
SpoCk0nd0pe1 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Malleable Illusions might be capable of giving a Simulacrum a new form. I only say "might", though, because "the spell's normal parameters" is simply much too ambiguous.
EDIT: On a similar note, a 6th level Major Image, being permanent, could be buffered to use as part of Illusory Reality. This is effectively netting you one free 3rd level spell slot at a later date for that specific purpose, the only downside being time spent moving the image around with you.
Just caught Treantmonk's chat on the OrcLabs podcast and enjoyed it a lot.
Jortix_the_Wizard wrote:
Jortix_the_Wizard wrote:
SpoCk0nd0pe1 wrote:
I think you're underestimating Nystul's Magic Aura. It allows you to permanently enchant yourself and your party members into a different creature type during downtime. Change yourself to a Celestial and now you're immune to any spell that's restricted to Humanoids, like Dominate Person or Hold Person.
It also makes you immune to many monster abilities like the Vampire's Charm ability, or the Cambion's Fiendish Charm.
Strill wrote:
Strill wrote:
Strill wrote:
It specifically mentions Symbol as an example of a spell it works on, which is not Divination. Moreover, can there even be a distinction between spells which sense a target's creature type, and those which effect a target conditionally based on creature type? Ultimately they both detect creature type.
Strill wrote:
Strill wrote:
I think you've rated Shocking Grasp too harshly (red- a bad choice) and I'm lobbying for it to be improved to at least 'neutral'.
Shocking Grasp is able to do several things that only a limited number of other spells can do, and their value should be considered carefully, as no other spell can do all of them.
It deals 1d8 scalable electricity damage. (I know, so far pretty lackluster- there are lots of other options that do better damage)
The attack roll is made at advantage if the target is wearing metal armor, or at least has lots of it. (a nice rider, but still seems pretty bad...)
The range is Touch. (Uh Oh... looks like this spell is a total loser!)
If the target takes damage, they lose their reaction (ok, this is pretty good, but seems pretty limited, how does this really help me besides just fleeing with a disengage?)
Ok fellow wizards, with our high Int bonuses, lets see if we can save this spell from the dustbin!
Shocking grasp is a Touch spell that does hp damage, requiring a to-hit roll. This means it is a Melee Spell Attack.
You can only convert your damage from lethal, to non-lethal with a melee attack (weapon or spell is ok). So that means Shocking Grasp can let you knock out your opponent, and that decision actually happens AFTER you've dealt the damage. Try that with a Firebolt! (Nope, you can't.)
In fact, the next available spell in the PHB that is also a Melee Attack Spell is Vampiric Touch, a lvl 3 spell, and Shocking Grasp is a cantrip!
Shocking grasp is a Touch spell, and Touch spells can be delivered by your familiar.
This dramatically increases the versatility of the spell, allowing you to safely (for you at least) to cast it from afar. It also gives a good explanation as to why the 'Help' action your helpful friend is performing is actually occuring. Sure, an owl swooping at the evil blackguard's face is a distraction the first couple of times it happens (help action), but will he really be distracted enough to take his eyes off the rogue? Yep, he'll have to keep an eye on it if every once in a while that same owl shocks him and causes him to lose his reactions.
In fact, here is the list of offensive Touch spells in the PHB: Shocking Grasp, Bestow Curse. Thats it. If you think you ever might need the option of channeling an offensive spell through your familiar, Shocking Grasp starts to look pretty good. All of the rest of the Touch spells besides these two, are buffs.
Shocking Grasp removes reactions. (I know, this has been pointed out several times before...)
At first glance, someone might think that this just to save the squishy wizard's bacon when he finds himself in melee. But they'd be wrong. We're WIZARDS! We are just as concerned about preventing damage to our boon companions as we are to ourselves, and making sure that they can slay the monsters for us. That reaction denial means that not just the wizard can get out of dodge, but the dumb as rocks ranger can back up out of melee too. You might not be the only one that needs to flee! You trade your action, for a chance to make sure that others who might need to can get their actions as well (instead of also spending it disengaging). With a familiar, you don't even need to be in melee yourself to help Dum-Dum the Archer. And yes, it also works good at stopping Shields, Counterspells, and a flurry of Marilith parries.
There are no other spells in the PHB that specifically prevent the use of reactions. (Sure, charming, sleeping, disintegrating the opposition is just as good but hey.. we're talking about a cantrip here).
Thanks! (And I love the guide too, thanks for the hard work!)
P.S.- Its also not a bad cantrip for the wizard wannabee- Eldritch Knight. At lvl 7+ with their 'cast a cantrip, swing a weapon' schtick. Or anyone else really going multiclass wizard/melee class X. I think it deserves a spot in the rotation.
Just checked Princes of the Apocolypse, and there are no additional direct offensive spells there that can be cast through your familiar like Shocking Grasp or Bestow Curse.
Grakarg2 wrote:
Hey, a shot on the familiar is an attack not taken against a fellow party member. That sounds like a score on my book. Besides, owl familiars pretty much ignore melee anyway. Still, even under those circumstances, I wouldn't say this would necessarily raise Shocking Grasp past, say, purple rating.
ShinQuickMan wrote:
Grakarg2 wrote:
ShinQuickMan wrote:
+1 to everything Treantmonk and mello have said. This just seems like the ramblings of someone who has no idea what he's talking about imo. Touch attacks for wizards = good??? This is good because it can stop the parries of a marilith??? Who the hell uses shocking grasp against a marilith as a wizard and thinks he did good???
Noctaem wrote:
I know you feel you have to white knight into the thread coredump but you really don't.
Coredump00 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Ok sorry, I was being a bit glib and facetious in my overly long post, my original premise seems to have been overlooked. Plus I forgot your original color scheme so i'll restate my case hopefully a bit clearer.
You've rated Shocking Grasp as: Orange: The option is poor or overly Circumstantial
I think it should be maybe bumped up to: Purple: Middle of the Road - I could take or leave it
Noctaem wrote:
Grakarg2 wrote:
Grakarg2 wrote:
Your opinion of shocking grasp is not of the minority at all. Don't sell yourself short Treantmonk!
I would only take shocking grasp on a dwarf abjuration wizard.
Tank wizard!
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Instead of Shocking Grasp, I would rather take a ranged cantrip that either 1) Had a different side effect than my first range cantrip or 2) went off of saving throw so it could be used within 5' if needed.
I am playing an abjuration wizard, and I still only want ranged cantrips
Zardnaar wrote:
Grakarg2 wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
hold spells only work if they fail the save, otherwise you wasted your turn and slot for nothing. it's a pretty big gamble.
unless your a divination wizard with a good preroll, then it's just pure awsome.
mellored wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many of those ratings are from people who don't understand the "God" role and think the rating, for God, is the same as the rating for MakeStuffGoBoomGuy?
Cone of Cold, for instance, isn't a terrible spell for Mister Evoker. It's absolutely not a good spell for God. Why should it get anything other than an orange rating for God?
Honestly, the Shocking Grasp argument just above sounds exactly the same - it's more interesting for Eldritch Knights, where any situation where it might show up for God, God would just disengage.
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
mellored wrote:
Noctaem wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
mellored wrote:
I don't want to debate colors, but I will point out that Shocking Grasp is distinctly different from Disengage in one important way: it doesn't protect you from AoO's, it prevents your target from getting them. Which means you can, for example, use it to let your melee charge right past that Big Nasty to whack the caster. Or you can use it to let the whole party "disengage" from one big foe, at the cost of only one Action. And this can all be done remotely via your (expendable) familiar. And if you're a Diviner you may not even have to roll.
Again, I'm not saying that should change the color, not least because these scenarios are situational. But it seems to me that for the character concept in TreantMonk's document, that's exactly the sort of utility that fits the role.
Maybe there should just be four ratings: mandatory, optional, situational, and junk.
If you're a Diviner causing them to not have to roll, use a Hold spell!!
It's still very edge case.
Hei Treantmonk, Can you rate the spells from "The Book of Lost Spells"? It would be very helpful.
Yunru wrote:
To me it's about learning aspects of spells that I hadn't considered, and thinking about how they compare against spells of an equivalent or lower level. Can you do the same thing better at a cheaper cost.
To me spells like minor image and shocking grasp are interesting because they can do more than what is expressly stated in their description, especially when combined with other effects. Like the hilarious cartoonish act of running through your own illusion and bonking monsters into it later by later making it real.
Once you learn some of the niche applications of them, the easier time you have playing the game, the faster it flows, and the more fun it is for everyone at the table. It always a great joy to pull a rabbit out of your hat at the last minute and turn the tides on a losing battle. Even when you don't directly blow up the big bad guy, you can be confident about your use of (insert spell here) was what levelled the playing field.
And then there are those other spells, like True Strike, that are really traps. They don't seem to effectively do what they were intended to do. I believe you actually hurt your character by taking them because you've wasted the selection.
And of course, my opinion is just my opinion, so if someone is happy with whatever they've selected for their character, great! Maybe I can learn something from whatever it was that they did.
Grakarg2 wrote:
P.S. I'll add that I would have thought an entirely different person wrote the following post. I'd love to see the guide edited to reflect this more..."gracious"...side of TreantMonk. (Ironically, Noctaem is on my blocked list because he spews too much hatred.)
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Elfcrusher wrote:
Hey Treantmonk, I noticed that Arcane Gate is still red in your guide. I was mistaken when I mentioned it before because I had forgotten that it has to be on the ground. However, you can still use it in many different types of terrain to great effect by opening one side of the gate next to something dangerous, opening the other side next to a monster, and having a fellow party member push the monster through it (or doing it yourself with a spell such as thunderwave). You may not be able to put it up in the air, but you can still put it on a ledge or up on a wall, which are techincally "on the ground."
Unless you're fighting in a flat, open field or underground where there is a low ceiling, you will often find terrain features you can exploit this way. Even undeground, there are often dangerous places you can put it, such as next to a trap, a hole in the ground, a pit of lava, etc. If you can see through bars, a hole in a wall, etc., you can put the exit gate in another room, which can trap a monster as effectively as a wall spell.
If nothing else, you can create the gate 500 ft. away from you (assuming you can see that far), push the monster through it and then cease concentrating (which closes the gate). By doing that, you can buy your party as much as several rounds before the monster can run back, depending on its speed and other factors. In that way, it's not unlike a banishment or maze spell in its ability to remove a monster from a fight.
You can also use it defensively. Put one gate somewhere that's far away or difficult to reach (like up on a ledge), put the other gate next to a wall, walk through it, and then use your bonus action to turn the gate around so it's facing the wall. That way the monsters can't follow you. Now, you're (hopefully) somewhere out of reach and can just turn the gate back around if you want to return to your previous location.
You can also use it for ambushes. Sneak up to within 500 feet of some monsters, open the gate, and your party can run through and surprise them. I used to do this with dimension door, but that spell can only transport the caster and one other person at a time in this edition.
It's true that other spells can accomplish the same basic things at lower levels (such as dimension door and banishment), but Arcane Gate is a versatile tool that gives you many options in one spell. I like it because it's one of those spells that rewards wizards for clever thinking.
Icevil wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
FallingIcicle wrote:
Thanks for this guide! Maybe the best guide ever made!
I've always wanted to try a wizard but editions past, that low starting HP was always a solid deterant. Now Wizards are a lot better out the gate. So i'm rolling up that Human Diviner I always wanted to make. I always felt cheating the system with a crystal ball or arcane eye type spells was an asset underused, but has quite a bit potential. I like your blogging about how damage does not always equal win where as a good disable can shut down an entire combat. Lesson learned. I'll let you know how my diviner pans out as it plunges Out of The Abyss the moment our table gets the book and gets together on a Saturday.
I'm going to Take Ray of Frost, Silent Image and True Strike as my starting cantrips.
Our DM has ruled the Silent Images from the Silent Image spell are more less "Holographic versions" of the spell. So a Silent image of a stone wall in front of an orc per say would look like a hologram to which the orc would be able to walk right through without a int check or perception roll just fine. Or chuck a spear through it. This kind of delegates Silent Image to more of a prestigation roll IMHO but i'm going to give it a shot.
As for True Strike, i'm going to see if he'll house rule off it's duration limitation and change it to more or less "Point at an ally, the next attack that ally makes is at advantage as long as you maintain concentration on the ally.' I feel that's more in spirit with the spell and sets up a good buff for an alpha strike from the rogue, paladin, fighter, etc at the cost of concentration and not walking into an engagement pre-buffed. We'll see if he goes for it. It's a bit disapointing the spell is what is is as written, I feel like it was not really playtested at all. 
Again thanks for the guide.
Yikes. That Silent Image ruling is pretty harsh. Essentially, your DM is saying that illusions are obviously illusions and pointless. I guess just remember that if he tries to use an illusion against you.
lot_ofsnow wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
Strill wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Elfcrusher wrote:
Well, part I is where all (most?) of the attitude I'm talking about is found, so even if just that part were re-written I think it would be really fun to read. (Yes, I acknowledge the work required.)
Here's an example, from the first few paragraphs, that I spent a few minutes re-writing. There's nothing terribly offensive in the original of this selection; this is just an example of what a rewrite could look like.
I’ve told this story before, but here it is again. A cleric of Tempus I'd known in the past invited me to join another group of adventurers he was working with to yet again save the world from evil. The group was in over their heads...had some god angry at them, no doubt...and several of their number had already been killed. In fact, every single one of them were replacements for earlier members who had died. I guess I was supposed to be the latest. Instead, I recommended an acquaintance of mine, a Goliath who would charge into combat and wreak havoc. He came back from it with a story about bush-league adventurers and a dead companion. "Never again," he said. I didn't want to let down my cleric friend, so I promised to come myself. In the first fight we got into they all yelled, "Use you fireball! Use your fireball!" They were quite confused when I told them I don't know Fireball. Or Lightening Bolt. Or even Magic Missile. I still remember their leader asking me, "So what do you do then?" When I explained that I would be putting up walls, fogs, protecting them, weakening enemies, and the like, they rolled their eyes. "Useless," they muttered. A year later I had not directly caused a single scratch...or singe or icicle or headache...of damage to an enemy. But the rampant deaths in the group had ended. In fact, we hadn't lost a single person since I had joined.
Etc.
Yunru wrote:
Yunru wrote:
You know what? Just forget I said anything on this topic.
I just re-read Part I, and it's not as bad as I remember. The thing that really bugged me originally was the "waste of space" paragraph. The first time I read it I found it offensively arrogant, and that must have became the lens through which I perceived the rest of the guide. I see now that part was meant to be funny, although it's worth noting that before I had any other data points on TreantMonk I didn't see it that way.
Good example of how one negative impression can color a whole host of other interactions.
Elfcrusher wrote:
i more or less agree on the high level spell analysis, though i think if you are clever with what you turn into, and have the right blocks against concentration interruption, the shapechange should be blue, at least green. Resilient: Constitution. War Caster.
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics
of the chosen creature, though you retain your
alignment and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving
throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the
creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you
and the bonus listed in its statistics is higher than yours,
use the creature’s bonus in place of yours.
You retain the benefit of any features from your class,
race, or other source and can use them, provided that
your new form is physically capable o f doing so.
You assume the hit points and Hit Dice of the new
form. When you revert to your normal form, you
return to the number of hit points you had before you
transformed.
ok, so what's going on here? Well, let's look at some CR 17-20 monsters.
Goristo: Con save: +13, AC 19, 310 hp.
Marilith: Con save: +10, AC 18, 189 hp + cast spells while holding weapons
Adult Red Dragon: Con save +13, AC 19, 256 hp + fly (avoid melee) and breath weapon
Ancient Brass Dragon: Con save +13, AC 20, 297hp + fly and breath weapons, including DC 21 AOE sleep for 100 rounds
and this joke:
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points,
Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance,
lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as
well as this action.
So you can turn into a dragon than turns back into someone who looks just like you, except you now have dragon hp, which if lost, reverts you back to your original hit points.
With advantage on that con save? Advantage is something like a 10-15 roll average, +10-13, is 20-28, doubled is 40-56. Most attacks in that damage range or higher have saves for half, so 80-112. It also says something like you use whichever saves are higher. So if you tanked out to 20 Con, you would always have +11 or better on those con saves. With advantage, thats easily 21-26 against any attack, ergo 42-52, and if the attack has a save for half, 84-104. Basically, there's only a tiny handful of attacks (or a bad die roll on your part) that interrupts the Concentration.
That's why i think the Shapechange spell deserves Green or Blue.
Ah, the pun pun trick.
But, you can only be affected by 1 shapehange spell at a time. Effects do not stack.
I think there's some rule about double-polyorphing too. Or maybe that was in the playtest.
mellored wrote:
shintashi wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
i think here we have an example of where the microgamer and powergamer lines diverge. if your game is microgaming D&D, then many spells are even more crapstastic than before and many would be that icky brown font. If your table is full of Dew drinking yuckyuck powergamers, then several purple spells are going to go blue and green, or introduce an all new color like perrywinkle or something.
In terms of what people are going to encounter, well, my character was on that diplomatic mission to the Good Dragon leadership for the Tiamat adventure, and was there at the final battle scene with hoards of all sorts of things. I'm guessing if you go through the Abyss adventure, you will probably see some high level demons. The spell definitely favors those who are well traveled, but seeing isn't defeating. It may not be so broken as to allow a fairytale collection of books to substitute slaying the monsters to count towards your "list of cool things to be", but I'm certain clairvoyant type spells or powers along the divination aspect could cover a lot of territory. In a way its kind of like pokemon or a final fantasy summoner/blue mage - you have to encounter it to copy it, meaning it grows more cool with time.
As to double stacking shapeshift? well, one is a non legendary non lair racial ability that doesn't act precisely like any spell or mention concentration, the other has a different name, requires concentration, and has a different set of limitations. Shapechange doesn't bestow class levels or the spell casting trait, but it does bestow racial abilities with the exception of liar/legendaries. Change Shape has no duration as well, so while they are similar, they are not identical. This could be another one of those "Wish/Simulacrum" scenarios, where people who hate it will ban it, and people who love it will use it. Since this particular scenario is limited to only a few types of creatures at high level (the example i use requires 20th level), i don't see it happening any time soon.
As to the Wizard guide, I would say you should set it to Purple, and then make a note that with appropriate Feats and Exploration (discovering interesting monsters) it becomes Green. It's too much work to say its blue, but it's quite reasonable to get it to a Green in the hands of most.
C o m b i n i n g M a g i c a l E f f e c t s
The effects of different spells add together while
the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of
the same spell cast multiple times don't combine,
however.
Lemme see if i can find some monsters in the manual that have other transformation spells, and see how many are "as the spell" vs. unique descriptions.
1. change shape - couatl, deva, metallic dragons - all have identically the same power as each other
2. shapechanger - quasit, yochlol, yuanti, imp, slaad, succubus, vampire, doppleganger, mimic (objects), were creatures - each of these is slightly different from each other, the most common is turning into a small or medium humanoid, or a specific humanoid, like werewolves:humans. A few are just a bundle or 2-5 small creatures, or a single combat animal form
3. Polymorph as spell - Faerie dragon, pixies, hag coven - is "spell casting trait" and same as the polymorph spell, would not stack
4. true polymorph as the spell - mighty genies - same as the spell 1-3 times per day, would not stack with true polymorph
5. change shape, special - Night hag - can only turn into small and medium female humanoids, nothing like #1
6. Half Dragon - the offspring produced by using these polymorph effects when the previous form is a dragon
7. change shape, special - lizard folk shaman - can only turn into a crocodile for one hour
8. change shape, special - oni - used for changing sizes only
i would say the Oni change shape doesn't stack with Enlarge/Reduce. The shapechanger effects are similar to the Druid power. Faerie dragons and pixies are definitely casting spells, as are genies, so those definitely don't stack. How i would rule them all collectively, is first determine if there's a chance for overlapping transformation. Most of the time there isn't. Then determine if the two descriptions are identical or close to identical to some other effect or spell.
Some of you will say nothing ever stacks, some of you will say everything stacks. I just look at the RAW and don't worry about it.
When you compared Confusion and Hypnotic Pattern and declared that Hypnotic Pattern is strictly a better spell, I don't think you touched on the main advantage of Confusion. It is not a standard status effect, so no creature in the game is immune to it.
This advantage is especially notable when compared to Hypnotic Pattern's reliance on the "Charmed" condition. I counted 48 creatures in the monster manual immune to charm (and I may have missed a few). Furthermore, many types of creatures have advantage on saving throws versus charm (drow, elves, half-elves, driders, ettercaps, duergar, bugbears, hydras, death-dogs, cult fanatics and more). Meanwhile, Confusion works on everyone.
The other big advantage of Confusion compared to Hypnotic Pattern is that Hypnotic Pattern ends if the affected creatures take damage. With Confusion, you can stand at a safe distance and launch fireballs, or have your hand crossbow wielding ranger take shots at the badguys until they're all dead.
dwroos wrote:
Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
Treantmonk are you planning on moving your guide to ENworld? I have started copying and pasting some over there but I can save myself some work if you were gonna do it.
I have a question about Enlarge/Reduce and how it interacts with the "Polearm Master" feat. From the spell description, everything it is wearing and carrying changes size with it. Under the enlarge section, it says that the creature’s size doubles in all dimensions and its weight is multiplied by 8. It has advantage on strength checks and saving throws, and “The target’s weapons also grow to match its new size”
If your target has a REACH weapon, does this increase in the weapon's size mean that the reach also increases? Similarly, since polearm master gets an OA on the first creature that enters its threat range on a turn, makign the polearm master large sized, that should increase the range he covers from a 25x25 foot area to a 36x36 foot area, unless your DM rules that making the weapon larger also means its range increases... You have a ton of options within the PMs range to keep stuff down. Grease just inside (or outside) his threat range can stall creatures from reaching the PM for a turn, which lets him use his OAs against something else coming into range.
Has anyone ever used enlarge to make a super sized polearm master, and does this synergy make Enlarge a better choice for a Wizard with a PM in their party?
Jortix_the_Wizard wrote:
I think shocking grasp is more for hybrid tanks with warcaster feat, giving you better option than desperately swining at the passing by tank while everyone behind you have to disengage.