Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 GrapplingRogueMonkey Jun 21, 2015 13:18:14	Obviously not a combat focused optimization, but starting to build a "huge pain in the DM's thinking cap" character. Thinking of going Arcane Trickster and Illusionist Wizard with a splash of College of Lore Bard in order to 1) make an insanely capable skill monkey, and 2) to get access to super useful and creative tricks with Mage Hand and Minor Illusion, both of which are upgraded do thehis perseptive classes.   Basically, just starting this character and wanted to reach out and see if there were any thoughts about this kind of character. Is it too irritating for a DM to play. Is it as underpowered in combat as I think, or are there some tricks I might be able to pull to keep him from being a liability for Fighter friend.   Also, any tips on race, class progression, or even spells would be helpful. At this moment I am thinking deep gnome(as my DM gave the ok to use anything published by Wizards), but I can also see the value of using an Elf or Halfling build. I was also thinking starting Rogue and going 4 then switching to Wizard for at least 4 levels but I am not really confident in that progression.    Thanks in advance for everybodies help and let me know what people think of the idea.
#2 drizzt_zylo Jun 21, 2015 14:04:53	Adding bard might be a little mad unless you avoid save spells or attack roll spells and don't care for inspiration but I like the concept. There is a thread somewhere bout trickster mage hand check it out. Your character might feel a bit ineffective in combat unless you are real creative like granting cover or concealment as long as somehow you can let allies know its fake with my thought being another can trip or warlock which will allow you to recharge some of your spells. I think you'll have lots of can trips so don't be afraid to grab any that seem interesting. Seems to me you want to stay out of melee so grab shocking grasp. I'd grab one ranged spell too if you can so you always have a weapon for melee or ranged. Mending might be good ifyou ccan't find a ranged spell you like so you can mend arrows. Magic stone might work with sneak attack. Main thing here is think outside the box. For race I can see your logic for elf or halfling but remember you can create your own hiding spot and once you reach a bit higher levels you can create your own advantage without hiding or creating illusions not even wasting the chance to deal damage that is if you go far enough in arcane trickster. If you progress far enough in illusionist you'll make some of your illusion real like maybe a pittrap or something. Yes might be a headache for DM to try and figure out how enemies react to illusion. No you won't be a liability as long as you creative even granting advantages to allies like covering an enemy with darkness that the fighter knows is fake. Dang I need to quit getting into these forums cause its making me want to abandon my character for an ongoing campaign
#3 Ze_Azrael Jun 22, 2015 12:09:30	First of all, I really like the idea, instead of going the traditional angle you get things done with your wits and charm. Plus seeing all the DM's plans crumble before his eyes can definitely be fun (plus it forces him to adapt and think on the spot, thus making him a better DM in the long run).   I would suggest going Warlock instead of Bard. Warlock gives you unlimited, free Silent Image and Disguise Self, an invisible (and shapechanging that can possibly give you Magic Resistance) familiar to go with your invisible Mage Hand, or even more cantrips. GOO Patron gives you telepathy to get into anyone's mind and Dissonant Whispers.   Disguise Self paired with Actor Feat and the Friends cantrip could be super fun to puppet the DM's NPC's. Using the senses of an invisible familiar opens up a lot of doors for misdirection and manipulation. You can use Improved Minor Illusion in conjunction with Silent Image since only the latter requires concentration, both would be essentially cantrips for you.   Traditional combat is definitely not your forte but with the ridiculous amount of tools you have to manipulate your environment, why would you try and bash someone's head in yourself? Manipulate your environment and your allies/enemies to control how things will play out. Turn your enemies on each other, force encounters that catch your DM off guard and avoid the ones he has prepared. As an INT/CHA character you want to outsmart and get into the mind of your opponents and your DM.   As for race, going from stats Tiefling is an obvious choice and gives you a couple extra spells but they aren't really fitting with the theme. Half Elf supports the skill monkey theme, gives you CHA, INT, and DEX/CON stat bumps, and Fey Ancestry. Eladrin gives you a free Misty Step. Deep Gnome has access to a decent feat. And as always Variant Human if there's any feats you want right off the bat. I think any would be decent so just pick whichever you feel will give you a better concept, since your approach isn't direct combat, min/maxing so much isn't really necessary.   As for levels, you would want at least Warlock 2 (or 3), Arcane Trickster 3, Wizard 2 to have your basic features. I would start Rogue for the extra skill and since the other 2 classes don't offer any better proficiencies. Disadvantage of rushing those levels as they are is you delay spell levels and ASI's quite a bit, so I would suggest taking either Rogue or Wiz/War to 4 (5 for the spellcasters if there's level 3 spells that you really want). To be honest the level progression would depend on what features you find most valuable, your campaign and party composition, etc. As such it would really be up to you to decide on this, an advantage of this concept is that your character relies on manipulation and subterfuge, and as such doesn't get hampered that much from the breadth vs depth issue that comes from Multiclassing and can actually benefit from having more tools rather than fewer, more specialized ones.   At least that's my opinion and where I would take this concept, hope it helps :P
#4 Clutchbone Jun 22, 2015 13:39:57	Having played similar characters before, I can say it's really important to talk to your DM beforehand to get his/her take on illusions. For instance, when faced with an illusionary obstacle, do mindless zombies try to walk around or break it down? How do illusions work with cover, concealment, and stealth? Can I see through my own illusions, or are they opaque even to me? Can I stand within an illusion and cast non-visible spells (suggestion, etc) from within without breaking the illusion? Can I murmur my vocal components and then yell "DEADLY WALL OF ACID KNIVES!" when I cast my illusions to confuse enemies?   Seriously, certain DMs can make or break illusion-based characters.   As for mechanics, I like to keep things simple so I'd go straight Forest/Deep Gnome Arcane Trickster or Half-Elf Feypact Tome Warlock. If you must multiclass, go Arcane Trickster/Wizard(any) or Warlock/Lore Bard, but avoid mixing Int-based classes with Cha-based classes; stick with Dex + one spellcasting stat.