Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wills2009 Aug 31, 2014 11:54:10	I'm trying to build some combination of the three charisma classes to play as my first 5e character. I need to be the main "arcane"person of the group. I know some would say "just take wizard" but I love the bard, sorcerer and warlock so i really want to play one (or some, or all) of them.   I'm really intrigued by the new spellcaster multiclass rules. Finally theres no penalty to "caster level' and your slot progression isnt hurt (other than high level spells known) by multiclassing casters.    Personally, while some of the level 6+ spells are amazing, the way the slot progression works now (6 and up are practically daily powers now.) I dont think I'd be that sad to not get them and just multiclass instead. The fact that so many spells rank up so well using higher slots means that I could still use those slots if I get them as a bard/sorc for example and not just waste them too.   I pretty much hate daily powers (from 4th edition experience) so what i'm going for here is a caster with most of the spells known I want, and a ton of level 1-5 (and maybe 1 6th) slots to use them in.
#2 mellored Aug 31, 2014 12:06:58	The downside to multiclassing caster is you don't have the high level spells. And meteor swarm >> fireball in a level 9 slot.   So your basicly trading power for versatility.     That said, warlock 2, with agonizing blast, will scale very nicely without any additional warlock levels.
#3 wills2009 Aug 31, 2014 12:15:14	mellored wrote:
#4 ppaladin123 Aug 31, 2014 12:16:53	Does being the main arcane guy mean handling rituals and out of combat spells? If so you probably want the ritual caster feat (intelligence 13 prerequisite...ouch) or the tome pact warlock up to level 3.   There are a lot of important utility spells above level 5 too, remember....plane shift and teleport for example!
#5 wills2009 Aug 31, 2014 12:26:52	ppaladin123 wrote:
#6 mellored Aug 31, 2014 17:52:24	wills2009 wrote:
#7 wills2009 Aug 31, 2014 20:23:00	mellored wrote:
#8 ppaladin123 Aug 31, 2014 20:30:52	wills2009 wrote:
#9 wills2009 Aug 31, 2014 20:36:22	ppaladin123 wrote:
#10 mellored Aug 31, 2014 21:13:28	There's also the ritual caster feat.   That, or dip wizard.  Plenty of spells don't need Int, paticularly the ritual ones.
#11 Polaris Aug 31, 2014 23:34:27	mellored wrote:
#12 mellored Sep 01, 2014 9:17:05	Polaris wrote:
#13 BW0222 Sep 01, 2014 10:20:54	There are a number of disadvantages with multi-classing beyond just high level spell slots.   First, ability score improvements are a class ability. Starting with a 16 charisma, an 8th-level wizard would have a 20 charisma, an 18 cha with a feat, or a 16 charisma and two feats. A bard 3/sorcerer 3/warlock 2 would have only a 16 cha and no feats. That can be a +2 on spell DCs.   Second, many core caster abilities don't come into effect until at least 2nd or 3rd-level. Bard college (3rd), soceror font of magic (2nd), warlock invocations (2nd) and pact (3rd), wizard schools (2nd). One level dips is not so useful.   Third, all classes get abilities at 6th, 10th, and other levels. Heavily multi-classing either delays when you get these or makes them much less desirable when you get them.   Forth, warlock spell slots do not "level stack" with other classes. A bard 4 who takes two levels of sorceror gets three third-level spell slots - plus font of magic to recall a 3rd-level. A bard 4 taking two levels of warlock gets two 1st-level slots (although able to refresh them as a short rest). Warlock also tends to rely on non-spellcasting abilities - armor, weapons, pacts, etc. -- as they only have a limited number of spell castings.   Fifth, large number of cantrips is so so. Certain cantrips are noticably better than others, some cantrips scale by level, and you typically don't need multiple sets of offensive cantrips. Others are pretty minor.   Sixth, there are ways to gain flexability in casting without large level dips in multi-classing. The ritual casting feat is an obvious one. Over two-thirds of ritual spells are wizard. This gives you everything from find familiar, detect magic, silence, water breathing, alarm, etc. without wasting any spell slots or levels. Get the feat at 4th (or 1st if human) and for rather small amounts of gold you can have those spells when you need them. Pact of the Tome for warlocks gives an even better version at 5th-level (plus some cantrips at 3rd). It also lets you take a non-wizard rituals - speak with animals, animal messenger, etc. You also have the magic initiate feat which gives two cantrips and a first-level spell once per day from any class. These won't stack, but do give flexibility.   If you really want to multi-class, my idea would be to take a level of bard (for the skills and four spells known) and then switch to warlock. Keep going with warlock as your primary until you get pact (and likely select tomb). At 4th-level (or 1st if human) consider the magic initiate feat (for say wizard). Around 5th-level warlock (when you have ritual casting), then decide if you are happy with the number of spell slots at high levels, how well you are fighting bad guys, whether you have enough scores/feats, etc. and then decide if taking more bard levels until you gain a college is worth what you'd give up on spells.   Alternately, go human bard / sorceror, and use ritual caster to get wizard rituals at first-level. Deciding to dip back into bard levels won't be so costly as your spell levels at least stack.
#14 Polaris Sep 01, 2014 10:29:52	GIven what the OP wants, I think his best bet (but it will cost him an attribute increase) is Bard-17/Warlock-3 (tome).  If you take any more warlock levels, you don't get 9th level slots.  If you don't mind topping out at 8th level slots, then Bard 16/Warlock 4 gives you back your missing attribute increase.  I note that you  won't need to dip into wizards or use feats for ritual casting and better yet, the ritual casting will all be Cha based (from the tome feature and invocation).  Eldritch Blast +  Agonizing Blast (invocation) will be all you need for ranged attacks and is entirely charisma based.  If you go both tome (warlock) and College of Lore, this gives maximal spell access (at the cost of multiple melee attacks).   -Polaris
#15 wills2009 Sep 01, 2014 11:21:37	Thanks for the advice everyone.   I decided to go ahead and map out a single class warlock, bard and sorcerer to help me decide.   The funny thing is most of the spells I really want are level 1-3, and that's where I'm having trouble fitting everything in... Level 4 and up I'm not having too much trouble with any of the classes as theres usually only a couple things I really want or feel I "need to have". This is part of the reason I keep thinking of multiclassing. The way the rules work now even a few levels in a class gets me a pretty big handful of level 1 and 2 (or 3) spells that I can pad my list with.    The sorcerer I just don't think will work for me without dipping into bard. I just cant fit enough of the spells I want onto him, especially at lower levels. I also don't feel like his features give me what I'm looking for. If I was trying to just make a blaster cannon it would be different.     The Lore bard does pretty good for me even single class. Being able to grab spells from other classes is nice, but of course I'd be happier to get it a bit earlier as I want to pick a lot of level 1-2 spells and feel like Im wasting it if I do that at level 6 or 10 (or 14). Still, starting with 4 level 1 spells gets things going and he can grab a lot of good stuff from the wizard/warlock/sorcerer lists fairly regularly after level 6. He's still lacking rituals and cantrips but both of those things can be solved with feats.    (BTW I think its absolutely evil that they made feats and ability boosts an exclusive choice. Not saying it isnt balanced, its just mean, lol)   The warlock is still teasing me as a single class. He actually gets the majority of the spells i want on his class list, and I can even manage to pick most if not all of them. His tome solves all my desires for cantrips and rituals as well. It would make sense in a lot of ways to just play one, but... It's the spell slots... I want to be a bit of a utility caster and sometimes I want to throw around level 1 or 2 spells a bit. Having only 2 slots till level 11 is just brutal. Yes they refresh on short rests but in my mind, even if I know for sure there's only 1 encounter, If I cast armor of agathys and hex, or maybe a hold person instead, thats it. Whats the point of having all the spells known I want if I can never cast them?    I kind of feel like warlock would work for me as the higher end of a multiclass. a 12/8 would at least get me some normal level 1-4 slots to work with, for those times when I just want to cast a bloody level 1 spell and I don't need to blow one of the 3 level 5 pact slots I have... And at least I know the warlock can always keep up with eldritch blast damage wise.
(Reply to #15) wills2009	Quick question about magic intiiate feat.   Does the 1st level spell you get out of it count as a "spell known" if you are already a caster?   Like if my bard picked up a couple cantrips and something like shield, or armor of agathys as the 1st level spell, would he then be able to cast them with his regular slots?   I get that the feat lets you cast it 1/day outside of spell slots but its unclear if you also know it for purposes of normal spellcasting...
#17 Polaris Sep 01, 2014 11:55:14	wills2009 wrote: