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| #1SorxoresNov 25, 2014 10:38:29 | ok here an exercise:
I want to build a character that be the best defendor possible and viable at every level in the widest range of possibilities. Following the AL rules, and like with AL you cannot garantee the presence of a good team around you (the cleric couldn't come today, and the new player joining the table playing a bard didn't took cure wounds because he don't want to be a heal bot)
My definition of a tank for me, in priority order is:
1- Controlling ennemies to prevent them from reaching the "weaker" party member: even if the build have 35 AC, infinite HP, and immunity to all damage, if the monster just run by you and kill the wizard you failed in your role.
2- Mitigation: you need to take a minimum of damage possible, so the support (healer) can heal you easily: If you have 200 HP, if you have 8 AC, the healer won't be able to keep you up without being a healbot, and you will eventually die. but if you have only 100hp, with resistance to all damage and 35 AC the healer will be able to keep you up without being a boring healbot and will be able to attack or cast support spell on other party member.
3- Survavibility: able to survive as long as possible without the support of the healer: So if the healer is unable to heal you (silence spell have been cast, or the healer is unconscious etc...
4- Damage: damage is the less important factor, but still important since the faster you can kill the target, the less damage he will deal on you (and the party)
Here is the build I would suggest:
Str:15+1 Dex: 8 Con:15+1 Int: 8 Wis:10 Cha:14+2
1: Paladin: warhammer/shield/chainmail, Lay on hand for survavibily 2: Paladin: fighitng style: defense (+1AC) Spell that can boost Mitigation (shield of fate), survavibility (healing spell) and damage (smites) 3: Ancient-Paladin: Offer controlling spell 4: Ancient-Paladin: +2str (to be able to keep hitting the target and damage them so they don't laughtat you and tae the AoO. 5: Ancient-Paladin: extra attack and spell lvl 2 6: Ancient-Paladin: Aura of Protection (add Charisma modifier (+3) to all saves 7: Ancient-Paladin: Aura of warding: resistance to spell damage 8: Barbarian: Rage and damage resistance 9: Barbarian: Advantage on Dex save (reckless attack can be interesting, but won't be a major feature in this build 10: Wolf totem Barbarian: wolf totem to give advantage to your ally, since the bear totem resistance overlap Aura of warding 11: Wolf totem Barbarian: +2 Str (max 20 strenght) 12: Fighter: Dueling (since cannot take defense twice) + Second wind 13: Fighter: Action surge 14: Battlemaster fighter: Goading, Sweeping and Riposte 4/short rest (if the enemy is attacking you, you cannot use your reaction for sentinel so this is your reaction option) 15: Battlemaster fighter: Sentinel (usefull to prevent monster from going away from you and to protect other melee character who stay close to beneficy from your paladin auras and use your reaction) 16: Battlemaster fighter: nothing (since extra attack don't stack) 17: Battlemaster fighter: Shield mastery 18: Battlemaster fighter: Know your enemy. distracting strike, commander strike 5/day 19: Battlemaster fighter: Mage slayer 20: Battlemaster fighter: Indomitable (more survavibility).
- So in this build you wear a heavy armor so your dex is negligeable. - I took paladin first because Wisdom Save are very harmfull and wisdom is a low stat in this build, Constitution offer a +3 to resist the nasty Constitution effect (plus additional +3 from aura of protection) your Reaction is use mainly with Sentinel to prevent monster from moving away from you and to protect allies by punishing the monster from attacking them. If no monster move or attack ally, then you can Riposte. - Your bonus action will be used by Shield Mastery to prone the target giving advantage to all melee ally. Shield mastery in combination with danger sense from the barbarian synergyse well together giving you advantage and your shield AC bonus (+2) on your dex save fro taking 0 instead of 1/2 damage - If you manage to fail a save you still have indomitable to redeem yourself. - If you don't face many spellcaster, Mage slayer can be replaced by Lucky.
Magical item to look for as priority: +Constitution +Charisma magical heavy armor Magical shield Anything that would boost your AC, saves or give you health regen.
belt of giant strenght, magical weapon etc... take them, but trade them to the fighter who took the full plate +1
Avoid the chainmail+1 since a splintmail give exactly the SAME AC, but the chainmail +1 will make it harder to get an other magical armor, while the splintmail doesn't count in the magical item count.
Anyone got comment or suggeswtion to make this defendor even stronger? |
| #2melloredNov 25, 2014 11:42:30 | By that defintion...
Anyone with hypnotic pattern.
1: Hyponotic Pattern controls enemeis. 2: Hyponotic Pattern mitigate damages. 3: Not sure how this is different from 2... 4: Hypnotic Pattern gives advantage to your allies.
The best defense is not having your enemies attack. |
| #3SorxoresNov 25, 2014 12:29:18 | but what you do against creature with high wisdom? what you do once you run out of spell? what do you do before being able to cast level 3 spells? and changing Battlemaster for Eldritch knight would be very hard considering the difficulty to have 4 high stats, and for hypnotic pattern to be effective you need a very high DC.
yes all 4 criterias do overlap. The difference between 2 and 3 is mainly HP. HP do not affect the number 2, since technically a wizard could have a very high mitigation (mage armor, shield, protection spell, endure elements, blink, Temporary HP, wards etc... but very small survavibility his HP is very low.
For example, a monster that hit for 10 damage per round, a fighter with high mitigation but low survavibility would have high AC, and resistance to damage and good save, so the monster will hit him only 1/5 rounds and the damage will be reduce by half, but only 20 HP. Since he get hit once per 5 round, and each hit do only 5 damages (resistance) then he will survive 4 round without any help. The beserker barbarian with low mitigation but high survavibility would have low AC will give advantage to the opponent to hit him (reckless attack from the barbarian for exemple) but will have 40HP, he require the same 4 rounds to be killed without help. But if the fighter have a cleric to help him, the cleric just need to cast a small healing spell every 15 round to keep him up, but he need to cast a big healing spell every 10 round to keep the barbarian up |
| #4melloredNov 25, 2014 12:49:09 |
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| #5MurdochManNov 25, 2014 12:57:10 | Whilst the Oath of the Ancients Paladin and Bear Totem Barbarian are undoubtedly the two best defensive classes, I'm not convinced that they have particularly good synergy. The resistances from the Bear Totem are only active whilst raging, and you only get three rages at Barbarian 4. When you are raging, you can't cast spells, although you do retain your aura benefits. If we assume that the average day will include six combats, this means your four level investment in Barbarian is gaining you resistance to most damage in 50% of combats, advantage on most dex saves, and 4hp (an effective 6-8 additional hp after HD healing). This comes at a big spellcasting cost (third level spells such as plant growth, aura of vitality, blinding smite and remove curse; three third level spell slots; the inability to use spells in 50% of combats due to rage), 20 hp from lay on hands, and extra damage from improved divine smite (which is substantially better than rage damage). Alternatively you could be taking four more levels in Fighter, gaining better superiority dice, an extra attack, and an extra use of indomitable.
It may well be that the Bear Totem resistances are worth those sacrifices. I don't know. Personally I'm not convinced.
Eldritch Knight is an alternative to Battlemaster if you don't take the Barbarian levels. The additional spell slots have nice synergy with the paladin, allowing you to cast more auras and smites. Shield essentially replaces riposte, giving you more survivability at the expense of damage. Unfortunately you're not going to get much in the way of control from the EK, given that your EK spell DC will be awful. Spells like sleep, darkness, and silence could see some use though. It essentially provides a halfway house between MC Paladin/Battlemaster and a pure Paladin. Probably not worth it, but it's an option to consider. |
| #6YunruNov 25, 2014 12:53:38 | See: Restbot. Long story short: extended cast Leomund's Tiny Hut. |
| #7MurdochManNov 25, 2014 13:42:47 | Oh, and Dragonborn would be a viable alternative to Half-Elf, especially if you don't take levels in Barbarian. Resistance to poison and an AoE attack that's independent of class levels are both nice; fire resistance would be decent too, but is less important for an Oath of the Ancients Paladin due to resistance to spell damage. Additional skills and languages aren't important from a combat perspective, given that you should be able to pick athletics and perception up from your class and background (as long as custom backgrounds are allowed). Darkvision and a con boost are more important, though; a Dragonborn would probably want to take Resilient (Con) at some point to compensate. This does have the additional benefit of proficiency in concentration saves. Dex: 8 Con: 14+2 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 15
The first ability score increase boosts Str and Cha, bringing you to the same stats as a Half-Elf of the same level. If the low Dex is a worry, drop Str to 14+2 and Cha to 14, then boost Dex to 12. You'll have to put an ability score increase into Cha early on, though, at the expense of Mage Slayer later on. |
| #8LawolfNov 25, 2014 15:27:01 | Level 14 Bear barbarian. You resist damage, enemies adjacent to you have disadvantage on attacks against your allies, you have buckets of HP, you have good saving throws, blah blah.
You still really suck at actually protecting the party, but that is true of any 5e defender. |
| #9LongTimeLurkerNov 25, 2014 16:37:29 | So are you building this character as a 20th level character? Or is this intented to be functional throughout the journey to 20th level? In any sort of thought experiment like this, I tend to look at the playability of the character as a whole.
Towards that end, your point #1 is 1- Controlling ennemies to prevent them from reaching the "weaker" party member: even if the build have 35 AC, infinite HP, and immunity to all damage, if the monster just run by you and kill the wizard you failed in your role., but you don't pick up Sentinel until 15th level and Shield Mastery at 17th level, both of which are excellent methods of controlling the battlefield. How does your fighter prevent them from reaching weaker allies for the first 3/4 of his career? Is he casting Compelled Duel? That may actually be a valid tactic, I haven't seen anyone use it in play as of yet.
Based on your other comments though, your Reaction is use mainly with Sentinel and Your bonus action will be used by Shield Mastery to prone, it does sound like this is a "I'm 20th level already" build (please correct me if I'm wrong). If that's the case, however, then the benefit of the thought experiment is seriously diminished due to the fact that, for all other levels of play, the elements for consideration that are being skipped - can't be skipped.
Part of what I'm really liking about 5e is the dichotomy of "what allows me to fulfill my role the best" of the ability mod OR feat options, having to deal with the choice is interesting. "I really want to put +2 into strength, because the +1 to hit and damage is always useful, and helps me fulfill my stated role. However, Squishy mcSquisherson the 8con elven Wizard just keeps falling down. I could really use something like Sentinel or Shield Master to keep targets from going after him."
Shield Master is a good example, proning a target on your turn is good for defense, because it doesn't take the opportunity action that could be used on not-your-turn to smack something that tries to get by you. If you're relying upon sentinel, you only get the one opportunity attack - so it ties something down better, but only one thing as opposed to possibly getting two. Shield Master is also good for offense, as you can use the bonus action once you've declared the "Attack" action to prone a target, then all your attacks against it are with advantage, so could be worth more than the +2 into Strength if you're regularly getting to knock people down. But then, if you're going that route why, Rogue 1 for expertise in Athletics has some appeal doesn't it? Bard takes longer for expertise, but Bardic Inspiration is keyed off Cha and you're a paladin anyways... Or maybe getting Find Familiar to have your Owl "Help" action your shove attempt, wait, Bard works for that too, hmmm...
I totally get trying to build in all the neatness into your 20th level build, and admit to doing a fair amount of this myself. I always go back though and agonize over the "perfect" order to get everything in so as to be at my peak effectiveness over the career of the character (that I'll probably never play). |
| #10LindoniusNov 25, 2014 16:34:29 | All of the OP's requirements just scream Grapple Bard to me. |
| #11LongTimeLurkerNov 25, 2014 16:37:26 |
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| #12SorxoresNov 26, 2014 5:05:16 | I like the bard idea probably replacing the barbarian level.
Just a question I just realize here, anyone kow how having resistance from 2 different source does? (Bear totem resistance featue and the paladin aura of warding feature against a fireball for example)
do they overlap so there is no point having both source?
do they stack multiplicatlively, so you taking only 25% of the damage?
do they stack additively? so you are now immune?
For low level "controlling" option, I got some paladin spell like compel duel, command, ensnaring strike (from the ancient Oath) and still have the Attack of opportunity if the enemy get away from me |
| #13melloredNov 26, 2014 5:10:57 |
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| #15melloredNov 26, 2014 5:32:33 |
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| #17melloredNov 26, 2014 5:36:20 |
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| #18Gruff_IronfistNov 28, 2014 17:25:13 | In our 5e experience, there really is no defender. But our Moon Druid does a great job at this role regardless.
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