Unarmored Clerics (Variant Rule: Piety) - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Kalani Dec 16, 2014 11:56:06	Unarmored Clerics While the idea of a monastic cleric or friar is nothing new, many players are unsure exactly how best to simulate this character concept. The easiest approach, is simply to replace armor proficiencies with the monk's unarmored defense, and on the surface this approach is perfectly acceptable. However, while monks are DEX/WIS, Clerics are a WIS/CHA class. As such, granting clerics unarmored defense will result in them becoming a WIS, CHA/DEX class. As a result, it will reduce character diversity as most clerics will resort to using *sacred flame* as their primary attack form, as there are few simple finesse weapons to choose from. Armor of Faith Given the pitfalls of substituting a monk's class ability, the logical assumption is to use it as a model for a cleric based ability. While it is not hard to substitute one stat for another (WIS+CON or WIS+CHA), and this is the easiest method - I find this approach misses out on an opportunity to tie the characters to the world and increase PC immersion. To that end, I present the following class option: Armor of Faith (Var. Rule) Under this system, Clerics are not normally proficient with armor. Clerics which would normally gain proficiency with heavy armor (via domain), instead gain proficiency with light and medium armor, and shields. Instead of gaining proficiency with armor, clerics gain the following class feature. Armor of Faith (Replaces Armor Proficiencies) You are surrounded by an aura of divine protection. While not wielding a shield, your AC equals 12 + your Wisdom modifier + your Piety Rank.
#2 Elfcrusher Dec 16, 2014 12:56:30	I also have an interest in this topic. I've never liked the traditional D&D "St. Cuthbert" version of the healer, with metal armor, shield, and a mace. I prefer the WoW version: no armor and a staff. As a result, it will reduce character diversity as most clerics will resort to using *sacred flame* as their primary attack form, as there are few simple finesse weapons to choose from.
#3 mellored Dec 16, 2014 13:03:00	Kalani wrote:
#4 dafrca Dec 16, 2014 13:04:42	So if you went with this veriant would you starting equipment also change to reflect the new "flavor" of the character? Maybe replace the armor line with a healer's kit for example. I am interested in seeing where this goes because I have also always liked the idea of the healer not looking like the battle cleric.
#5 Kalani Dec 16, 2014 13:09:29	mellored wrote:
#6 dafrca Dec 16, 2014 13:12:14	Kalani wrote:
#7 MechaPilot Dec 16, 2014 13:45:28	This ability reminds me substantially of the fencing defenses that I proposed a while back, save that the base of the AC caluclation is a little higher here than in mine, and that this replaces the proficiency bonus with ranks of piety. The big mechanical concern that I have is the lack of a cap on renown/piety. The table on page 23 of the DMG shows renown as high as fifty. Fifty! Before attribute mods, that's an AC of 60! And that probably means a total AC of 65, since that much piety would take time to accumulate and the priest character would probably be buffing her casting stat. If I were going to use piety as a means of advancing the priest's AC like this, I would create tiers that one achieves at different levels of piety, perhaps something like this: Faithless (the zero piety tier), Observant, Faithful, Devout, Disciple, and Sainted. Then, each tier above the zero mark would add one or two AC. Aside from the potential for virtually unlimited AC under the current iteration, I like it.
#8 Kalani Dec 16, 2014 14:34:28	It is based on Piety rank not piety score (although it is easy to see the confusion). Piety rank caps out at 5 same as with faction rank, which incidentally is the same bonus as having a 20 stat. The calculation starts out at 12 + x for several reasons. Firstly, with an ac of 10+x, the average ac at 1st level is 12-13. While this self-corrects by 2nd tier I felt this was a little low and so included the +2 bonus from a shield for a starting ac of 14-15. I then made it incompatible with a shield which also solves the free hand problem.
#9 CariadocThorne Dec 16, 2014 14:50:41	If you go down the stats route, I think you should be very wary of replacing DEX as one of the stats. DEX is fundamentally vital to all AC except when wearing heavy armour, and it is one of the major concepts of the game in terms of stats, that dexterity includes the ability to duck, dodge or get your own weapon in the way and block or parry an attack. If you look through the various methods classes have to raise armour class, from mage armour spells, draconic sorcerers natural armour, unarmoured defence, and so on the only two which don't take dexterity into account are heavy armour, and the barkskin spell, which only ignores dexterity if your armour class is below 16. So it really seems the designers considered dexterity so significant to AC, that I would be wary of changing that. Also, how would WIS+Cha help not get hit? WIS works with DEX in terms of representing experience or intuition allowing the character to anticipate attacks and be ready to dodge them before they even happen. How would CHA work? Smiling so winningly that the blow falters and drifts wide? Batting your eyelashes seductively so they get distracted and miss? The most viable reasoning for WIS + CHA that I can think of would be using sheer force of will and force of personality to either form raw magic into a kind of forcefield effect, or to bend reality (kind of "there is no spoon", you believe so strongly that the attack will not hit, that reality itself alters under the force of your conviction, and the attack doesn't hit), although that one could be kind of cool. Reminds me of Granny Weatherwax (for any Discworld fans)
#10 Kalani Dec 16, 2014 14:48:08	Fair point. I could see making an argument for AC to be calculated as 12+dex+piety rank. It calculates the same way save that your ac will be slightly lower as it is a secondary stat. Then again - friars aren't known for being all that dexterous. As such I could see an equally valid argument for relying on their faith exclusively and praying for their god to turn blows away or make their enemies attacks falter and be less accurate. As such wisdom + piety rank works just as easily, as would CHA+ piety rank (representing force of will)
#11 MechaPilot Dec 16, 2014 14:37:56	Kalani wrote:
#12 mellored Dec 16, 2014 14:49:25	Well I guess that works. I like world tie ins, but I'm weary of punishing players for not playing the "right" way.
#13 Kalani Dec 16, 2014 15:12:17	That's the beauty of this system. Based on what little information is on pg23 of the DMG - you can make a very loosely-goosey set of tennants for each faith. ultimately - a PC should gain/lose piety for the same things they would gain/lose renown. Advancing the faith and it's influence increases piety. I would use the renown rules (which piety is a variant) and the paladin paths as a guideline for how strict you should be (Iows - not very)
#14 awaken_D_M_golem Dec 16, 2014 16:12:24	... and differences can apply to Alignments or Belief systems. Taint as a for instance, can be represented as how foul you are inside, but nobody knows, while casually Evil but nice, following a very long agenda. Here child, have this lollypop, I haven't any other (drippingly evil) use for it.
(Reply to #14) Yunru	awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
#16 mellored Dec 16, 2014 16:31:15	Yunru wrote:
#17 Elfcrusher Dec 16, 2014 16:34:13	Ok, here's my attempt at a subclass. I'm not stuck on any of these abilities, this is just the general idea. I also didn't lawyersmith the wording to avoid exploits, but each of them is similar to an ability we all know and love so assume it would be worded similarly. What I like about this solution is that Dex is useful but not critical; wisdom is far more important. Domain: Protection Domain Spells: 1: Sanctuary, Shield 3: Warding Bond, Misty Step 5: Magic Circle, Spirit Guardians 7: Freedom of Movement, Death Ward 9: Hallow, Wall of Force Bonus Cantrip: Shillelagh 1st Level: Pious Defense: when you aren't wearing any amor, your AC is equal to 10 + Dex bonus + Wis bonus 3rd Level: You can use your Channel Divinity to give all allies within 30' resistance to any one damage type. Lasts for ten minutes, no concentration required. 6th Level: When an ally within 30' (including yourself) is attacked, you can use your reaction to add your Wisdom bonus to the target's AC, potentially causing the attack to miss. You can use this as many times as your Wisdom bonus per short rest. (Seems too weak with limited use, too strong without it...) 8th Level: When a melee attack misses you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the attacker. 17th Level: Umm? Help me out here?
#18 awaken_D_M_golem Dec 16, 2014 16:45:17	mellored wrote:
#19 Glimjack Dec 17, 2014 0:20:38	Your variant rule seems a little unbalanced. The rule basically gives the cleric 1) a free +2 Dex Mod for AC, 2) let's them then add their primary casting ability, 3) and then additional component for even higher AC. I don't think you should be replacing Dexterity in the equation. All other classes with similar abilities retain Dex and simply add a new ability score to replace the armour component. Barbarian: 10 + Dex + Con Monk: 10 + Dex + Wis Secondly, you'll notice with the Monk and the Barbarian that it's not the primary attack stat being added. It's a secondary or tertiary ability. Admittedly the Monk already has their primary attack stat in the calculation, but this is for a class that is designed to be extremely defensive from the outset with no access to buff spells. A cleric adding their Wisdom bonus to AC turns Wisdom into an all round super stat, that increases defense, attack, one of the most important saves and the most rolled skill (perception) in the game. I'd suggest making it: Piety Cleric: 10 + Dex + Cha A piety cleric should have little need for other ability scores, and could get a 14-15 AC to start fairly easily. This is in-line with other non-tank classes, such as barbarian and rogue. I'd ignore the need for Piety to AC as unnecessary (a bank-rank caster cleric just won't need it as much as shield and mace cleric), but if you did add it in, assuming a cleric starts with a Piety score of 1, I would suggest changing the calculation to: Piety Cleric: 10 + Dex + Cha + (Piety - 1) which is essentially (9 + Dex + Cha + Piety) This gives Piety no benefit right out the gate, but makes a player earn it. You initial proposal can give an unarmored cleric AC 22 with out needing to spend precious ASI's on on dexterity increases or Heavy Armour Feats, giving them a better AC than armour-wearing clerics. A heavily armored cleric can normally only get to AC 20 but only with a shield, and thus sacrificing offensive power. With your rules adjustment, all clerics will want 2-handed weapon, as there is no reason not to. A simpler fix to the weapon/cantrip issue is to make certain weapons finesse (Quarterstaff and club spring to mind) and possibly give clerics a new attack cantrip (Lance of Faith?). EDIT: Removed/replaced offending adjectives.
#20 Yunru Dec 16, 2014 18:52:28	Yeah no. While you make some good points, your presentation is horrible (and horribly aggressive), and your suggested fix is worse. 10+Dex Mod+Piety Rank, works with shield, done.
#21 Elfcrusher Dec 16, 2014 19:25:40	Yunru wrote:
(Reply to #21) Glimjack	Elfcrusher wrote:
#23 Kalani Dec 17, 2014 7:45:20	Glimjack wrote:
#24 CariadocThorne Dec 17, 2014 12:35:25	While I hate to discourage anyone from creating homebrew content, I generally find that in some cases, minimal multiclassing already covers the intended build, and in such cases it's best to stick with that rather than create a new subclass which seems balanced at first but later turjs out to have some serious unforseen weaknesses or strengths. In this case, a single level dip in monk covers the desired concept nicely, and prevents the class becoming overly SAD.
#25 Glimjack Dec 18, 2014 4:22:28	Kalani wrote:
#26 Yunru Dec 18, 2014 4:13:25	And I still say adfing Cha is stupid and doesn't flow with the class. Hence 10+Dex+Piety with shield, or 12+Dex+Piety without.
(Reply to #26) Glimjack	Yunru wrote:
#28 CariadocThorne Dec 18, 2014 5:12:48	I don't think using DEX and WIS is necessarily a problem. I know WIS is the primary stat, but unless they get the shillelagh cantrip, they still need some STR for attacking with a staff, so while WIS may be maxed, DEX probably won't, and they end up with a slightly lower AC than most tanks, in line with most armoured clerics. I wouldn't advise anything else, like the extra +2 suggested above, as they already have shield of faith for an extra +2, especially at lower levels. I know the monk dip makes DEX more important, and lets them ignore STR and get higher DEX, but they are then paying for that, by delaying their casting progression by a level, and losing out on their capstone cleric ability.
#29 Stormborn20 Dec 18, 2014 6:04:15	Since this feature is replacing heavy armor, I would suggest not even including a dex modifier. Instead, while you are wearing neither armor nor a shield, your base AC is 10 + twice your piety rank. Also, including a feature which permits gaining piety twice as fast.
(Reply to #28) Glimjack	CariadocThorne wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Kalani

Dec 16, 2014 11:56:06

Unarmored Clerics

While the idea of a monastic cleric or friar is nothing new, many players are unsure exactly how best to simulate this character concept. The easiest approach, is simply to replace armor proficiencies with the monk's unarmored defense, and on the surface this approach is perfectly acceptable.

However, while monks are DEX/WIS, Clerics are a WIS/CHA class. As such, granting clerics unarmored defense will result in them becoming a WIS, CHA/DEX class. As a result, it will reduce character diversity as most clerics will resort to using sacred flame as their primary attack form, as there are few simple finesse weapons to choose from.

Armor of Faith

Given the pitfalls of substituting a monk's class ability, the logical assumption is to use it as a model for a cleric based ability. While it is not hard to substitute one stat for another (WIS+CON or WIS+CHA), and this is the easiest method - I find this approach misses out on an opportunity to tie the characters to the world and increase PC immersion.

To that end, I present the following class option:

Armor of Faith (Var. Rule)

Under this system, Clerics are not normally proficient with armor. Clerics which would normally gain proficiency with heavy armor (via domain), instead gain proficiency with light and medium armor, and shields. Instead of gaining proficiency with armor, clerics gain the following class feature.

Armor of Faith (Replaces Armor Proficiencies)
You are surrounded by an aura of divine protection. While not wielding a shield, your AC equals 12 + your Wisdom modifier + your Piety Rank.

Elfcrusher

Dec 16, 2014 12:56:30

I also have an interest in this topic. I've never liked the traditional D&D "St. Cuthbert" version of the healer, with metal armor, shield, and a mace. I prefer the WoW version: no armor and a staff.

As a result, it will reduce character diversity as most clerics will resort to using sacred flame as their primary attack form, as there are few simple finesse weapons to choose from.

mellored

Dec 16, 2014 13:03:00

Kalani wrote:

dafrca

Dec 16, 2014 13:04:42

So if you went with this veriant would you starting equipment also change to reflect the new "flavor" of the character? Maybe replace the armor line with a healer's kit for example.

I am interested in seeing where this goes because I have also always liked the idea of the healer not looking like the battle cleric.

Kalani

Dec 16, 2014 13:09:29

mellored wrote:

dafrca

Dec 16, 2014 13:12:14

Kalani wrote:

MechaPilot

Dec 16, 2014 13:45:28

This ability reminds me substantially of the fencing defenses that I proposed a while back, save that the base of the AC caluclation is a little higher here than in mine, and that this replaces the proficiency bonus with ranks of piety.

The big mechanical concern that I have is the lack of a cap on renown/piety. The table on page 23 of the DMG shows renown as high as fifty. Fifty! Before attribute mods, that's an AC of 60! And that probably means a total AC of 65, since that much piety would take time to accumulate and the priest character would probably be buffing her casting stat.

If I were going to use piety as a means of advancing the priest's AC like this, I would create tiers that one achieves at different levels of piety, perhaps something like this: Faithless (the zero piety tier), Observant, Faithful, Devout, Disciple, and Sainted. Then, each tier above the zero mark would add one or two AC.

Aside from the potential for virtually unlimited AC under the current iteration, I like it.

Kalani

Dec 16, 2014 14:34:28

It is based on Piety rank not piety score (although it is easy to see the confusion). Piety rank caps out at 5 same as with faction rank, which incidentally is the same bonus as having a 20 stat.

The calculation starts out at 12 + x for several reasons. Firstly, with an ac of 10+x, the average ac at 1st level is 12-13. While this self-corrects by 2nd tier I felt this was a little low and so included the +2 bonus from a shield for a starting ac of 14-15.

I then made it incompatible with a shield which also solves the free hand problem.

CariadocThorne

Dec 16, 2014 14:50:41

If you go down the stats route, I think you should be very wary of replacing DEX as one of the stats. DEX is fundamentally vital to all AC except when wearing heavy armour, and it is one of the major concepts of the game in terms of stats, that dexterity includes the ability to duck, dodge or get your own weapon in the way and block or parry an attack.

If you look through the various methods classes have to raise armour class, from mage armour spells, draconic sorcerers natural armour, unarmoured defence, and so on the only two which don't take dexterity into account are heavy armour, and the barkskin spell, which only ignores dexterity if your armour class is below 16.

So it really seems the designers considered dexterity so significant to AC, that I would be wary of changing that. Also, how would WIS+Cha help not get hit?

WIS works with DEX in terms of representing experience or intuition allowing the character to anticipate attacks and be ready to dodge them before they even happen. How would CHA work? Smiling so winningly that the blow falters and drifts wide? Batting your eyelashes seductively so they get distracted and miss?

The most viable reasoning for WIS + CHA that I can think of would be using sheer force of will and force of personality to either form raw magic into a kind of forcefield effect, or to bend reality (kind of "there is no spoon", you believe so strongly that the attack will not hit, that reality itself alters under the force of your conviction, and the attack doesn't hit), although that one could be kind of cool. Reminds me of Granny Weatherwax (for any Discworld fans)

#10

Kalani

Dec 16, 2014 14:48:08

Fair point. I could see making an argument for AC to be calculated as 12+dex+piety rank. It calculates the same way save that your ac will be slightly lower as it is a secondary stat.

Then again - friars aren't known for being all that dexterous. As such I could see an equally valid argument for relying on their faith exclusively and praying for their god to turn blows away or make their enemies attacks falter and be less accurate. As such wisdom + piety rank works just as easily, as would CHA+ piety rank (representing force of will)

#11

MechaPilot

Dec 16, 2014 14:37:56

Kalani wrote:

#12

mellored

Dec 16, 2014 14:49:25

Well I guess that works. I like world tie ins, but I'm weary of punishing players for not playing the "right" way.

#13

Kalani

Dec 16, 2014 15:12:17

That's the beauty of this system. Based on what little information is on pg23 of the DMG - you can make a very loosely-goosey set of tennants for each faith.

ultimately - a PC should gain/lose piety for the same things they would gain/lose renown. Advancing the faith and it's influence increases piety. I would use the renown rules (which piety is a variant) and the paladin paths as a guideline for how strict you should be (Iows - not very)

#14

awaken_D_M_golem

Dec 16, 2014 16:12:24

... and differences can apply to Alignments or Belief systems. Taint as a for instance, can be represented as how foul you are inside, but nobody knows, while casually Evil but nice, following a very long agenda. Here child, have this lollypop, I haven't any other (drippingly evil) use for it.

(Reply to #14)

Yunru

awaken_D_M_golem wrote:

#16

mellored

Dec 16, 2014 16:31:15

Yunru wrote:

#17

Elfcrusher

Dec 16, 2014 16:34:13

Ok, here's my attempt at a subclass. I'm not stuck on any of these abilities, this is just the general idea. I also didn't lawyersmith the wording to avoid exploits, but each of them is similar to an ability we all know and love so assume it would be worded similarly. What I like about this solution is that Dex is useful but not critical; wisdom is far more important.

Domain: Protection

Domain Spells:

1: Sanctuary, Shield

3: Warding Bond, Misty Step

5: Magic Circle, Spirit Guardians

7: Freedom of Movement, Death Ward

9: Hallow, Wall of Force

Bonus Cantrip: Shillelagh

1st Level: Pious Defense: when you aren't wearing any amor, your AC is equal to 10 + Dex bonus + Wis bonus

3rd Level: You can use your Channel Divinity to give all allies within 30' resistance to any one damage type. Lasts for ten minutes, no concentration required.

6th Level: When an ally within 30' (including yourself) is attacked, you can use your reaction to add your Wisdom bonus to the target's AC, potentially causing the attack to miss. You can use this as many times as your Wisdom bonus per short rest. (Seems too weak with limited use, too strong without it...)

8th Level: When a melee attack misses you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against the attacker.

17th Level: Umm? Help me out here?

#18

awaken_D_M_golem

Dec 16, 2014 16:45:17

mellored wrote:

#19

Glimjack

Dec 17, 2014 0:20:38

Your variant rule seems a little unbalanced.

The rule basically gives the cleric 1) a free +2 Dex Mod for AC, 2) let's them then add their primary casting ability, 3) and then additional component for even higher AC.

I don't think you should be replacing Dexterity in the equation. All other classes with similar abilities retain Dex and simply add a new ability score to replace the armour component.

Barbarian: 10 + Dex + Con

Monk: 10 + Dex + Wis

Secondly, you'll notice with the Monk and the Barbarian that it's not the primary attack stat being added. It's a secondary or tertiary ability. Admittedly the Monk already has their primary attack stat in the calculation, but this is for a class that is designed to be extremely defensive from the outset with no access to buff spells.

A cleric adding their Wisdom bonus to AC turns Wisdom into an all round super stat, that increases defense, attack, one of the most important saves and the most rolled skill (perception) in the game.

I'd suggest making it:

Piety Cleric: 10 + Dex + Cha

A piety cleric should have little need for other ability scores, and could get a 14-15 AC to start fairly easily. This is in-line with other non-tank classes, such as barbarian and rogue.

I'd ignore the need for Piety to AC as unnecessary (a bank-rank caster cleric just won't need it as much as shield and mace cleric), but if you did add it in, assuming a cleric starts with a Piety score of 1, I would suggest changing the calculation to:

Piety Cleric: 10 + Dex + Cha + (Piety - 1) which is essentially (9 + Dex + Cha + Piety)

This gives Piety no benefit right out the gate, but makes a player earn it.

You initial proposal can give an unarmored cleric AC 22 with out needing to spend precious ASI's on on dexterity increases or Heavy Armour Feats, giving them a better AC than armour-wearing clerics. A heavily armored cleric can normally only get to AC 20 but only with a shield, and thus sacrificing offensive power. With your rules adjustment, all clerics will want 2-handed weapon, as there is no reason not to.

A simpler fix to the weapon/cantrip issue is to make certain weapons finesse (Quarterstaff and club spring to mind) and possibly give clerics a new attack cantrip (Lance of Faith?).

EDIT: Removed/replaced offending adjectives.

#20

Yunru

Dec 16, 2014 18:52:28

Yeah no. While you make some good points, your presentation is horrible (and horribly aggressive), and your suggested fix is worse.

10+Dex Mod+Piety Rank, works with shield, done.

#21

Elfcrusher

Dec 16, 2014 19:25:40

Yunru wrote:

(Reply to #21)

Glimjack

Elfcrusher wrote:

#23

Kalani

Dec 17, 2014 7:45:20

Glimjack wrote:

#24

CariadocThorne

Dec 17, 2014 12:35:25

While I hate to discourage anyone from creating homebrew content, I generally find that in some cases, minimal multiclassing already covers the intended build, and in such cases it's best to stick with that rather than create a new subclass which seems balanced at first but later turjs out to have some serious unforseen weaknesses or strengths.

In this case, a single level dip in monk covers the desired concept nicely, and prevents the class becoming overly SAD.

#25

Glimjack

Dec 18, 2014 4:22:28

Kalani wrote:

#26

Yunru

Dec 18, 2014 4:13:25

And I still say adfing Cha is stupid and doesn't flow with the class. Hence 10+Dex+Piety with shield, or 12+Dex+Piety without.

(Reply to #26)

Glimjack

Yunru wrote:

#28

CariadocThorne

Dec 18, 2014 5:12:48

I don't think using DEX and WIS is necessarily a problem. I know WIS is the primary stat, but unless they get the shillelagh cantrip, they still need some STR for attacking with a staff, so while WIS may be maxed, DEX probably won't, and they end up with a slightly lower AC than most tanks, in line with most armoured clerics.

I wouldn't advise anything else, like the extra +2 suggested above, as they already have shield of faith for an extra +2, especially at lower levels.

I know the monk dip makes DEX more important, and lets them ignore STR and get higher DEX, but they are then paying for that, by delaying their casting progression by a level, and losing out on their capstone cleric ability.

#29

Stormborn20

Dec 18, 2014 6:04:15

Since this feature is replacing heavy armor, I would suggest not even including a dex modifier. Instead, while you are wearing neither armor nor a shield, your base AC is 10 + twice your piety rank. Also, including a feature which permits gaining piety twice as fast.

(Reply to #28)

Glimjack

CariadocThorne wrote: