Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Athanasi Nov 19, 2014 17:46:23	Hey guys, I just wanted to run some ideas I had for the Eldritch Knight past you. I'm fairly dissatisfied with the sub-class as it stands, due to the lack of interplay between spellcasting and physical striking. That is to say, it seems like the only reasonably effective way to play an EK is to use your spells purely for utility, and not bother with offensive spellcasting, except in really unusual circumstances.    Frankly, I don't like that. I want to play a character who mixes offensive spellcasting and physical striking. My proposed changes are as follows:   Blade Bond: In addition to the standard text of blade bond, your weapon can now function as an arcane focus.   War Magic: Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to attack, one of the attacks can be a cantrip. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier. You regain these uses after a short or long rest. This feature can only be used once per turn, and cannot be used in the same turn as Improved War Magic   Improved War Magic: Starting at 18th level, when you use your action to attack, one of the attacks can be a spell. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your intelligence modifier. You regain these uses after a long rest. This feature can only be used once per turn, and cannot be used in the same turn as War Magic.     Basically, is this absurdly overpowered when compared to the Battlemaster? If so, what small changes might be made to bring it in line?
#2 MurdochMan Nov 20, 2014 1:47:38	The Blade Bond & War Magic changes seem good to me. The need to juggle equipment in order to cast spells in combat when that's supposed to be your speciality can be frustrating. I'm not so convinced by Improved War Magic, though. If "one of the attacks can be a spell" means that it must be a spell that uses an attack roll, it strikes me as more limited than the vanilla rule. If, however, it can be any spell, I suspect that the Eldritch Knight would become much too powerful. Fighters already stretch 5e's action economy to its limits with 3-4 attacks per turn and an Action Surge once or twice per short rest. Eldritch Knights can stretch it even further as it is with Haste, if they feel it's worth an action at the start of combat and are willing to run the risk of losing a turn from a blown concentration save. Using your proposed change, a lvl 20 Eldritch Knight with Polearm Master and Haste could cast a 3rd or 4th level spell then make 8 attacks + one bonus action attack, and do so twice per long rest. Sure, they're blowing a heap of their daily resources to do so, but the rewards would probably be too much.   That said, I just ran a few numbers in excel, and in terms of single target burst damage your variant Eldritch Knight seems very comparable to the Battle Master. I compared the single round burst damage at level 20 of the two subclasses using direct damage (Blight vs Riposte) and control (Hold Person vs Tripping Attack), with and without an Action Surge. I assumed that Improved War Magic only allowed one spell per round, even with an Action Surge. Similarly, the Battle Master only used one Superiority Die per round. For simplicity's sake I ignored Eldritch Strike, but that could potentially swing the numbers about 5-10% in the Eldritch Knight's favour. Both used Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Master with a maul. For the monster I assumed AC 18, STR save 5, DEX save 3, CON save 7, WIS save 5. Eldritch Knight, Improved War Magic (Blight) Damage: 67.33 Action Surge damage: 119.67 Battle Master, Riposte Damage: 65.25 Action Surge damage: 117.49  Eldritch Knight, Improved War Magic (Hold Person) Damage: 72.26 Action Surge damage: 142.02 Paralysis: 55% Battle Master, Tripping Attack Damage: 70.79 Action Surge damage: 149.87 Prone: 59.05% (64.46% w/ Action Surge) At first this seems remarkably balanced. There are a couple of major caveats to this comparison, however. The first, and hopefully most obvious, is that comparing single target damage is not the best way to evaluate combat magic. If we switch out the EK's Blight for a lvl 4 fireball and limit it to only two targets, the EK's direct burst damage rockets to 146.88 with action surge and 94.54 without. In actual play, an Eldritch Knight flinging a fireball before running into the fray will probably be hitting three or four targets. The main limitation of th devoted martial classes is their lack of reliable horde damage; with the proposed variant the EK becomes almost as good at crowd control as a wizard with Meteor Swarm whilst retaining the combat prowess of the base Fighter class. Second, the paralysis inflicted by Hold Person is significantly more deadly than the prone from Tripping Attack. Prone gives a monster disadvantage on attack rolls, attackers within 5 feet advantage, and requires movement in order to stand. Paralysis prevents any actions, gives advantage and automatic criticals on a hit, and requires a saving throw to recover. Most of the time, this should be compensated for by the additional damage that the Battle Master gets on their Tripping Attack, compared to the 0 damage from casting Hold Person. Great Weapon Master throws the balance out, however, due to its bonus action attack on a critical. If we remove the feat, the Eldritch Knight's damage becomes 51.53 & 120.23, compared to 69.00 & 135.82 for the Battle Master. Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on like that. Hope some of the above helps!
#3 MurdochMan Nov 20, 2014 1:31:17	As an addendum: if you altered the text of (your version of) Improved War Magic to read "you may replace one attack with a spell that targets no more than one creature", or words to a similar effect, that would mitigate the AoE problem. It still strikes me as a bit too good, though. To be honest, I feel that the vanilla rule is pretty great already, as long as you use your spells wisely.
#4 Yunru Nov 20, 2014 3:33:16	Personally I'd have switched the vanilla order; using the Attack action allows you to cast a cantrip (later any spell) as a bonus action, although that in itself may be overpowered. Perhaps giving up on of the attacks to do so?
(Reply to #4) Timborama	Yunru wrote:
#6 Athanasi Nov 20, 2014 10:23:16	Awesome responses. I think I'm probably going to go with my changes to Weapon Bond and War Magic, and probably leave Improved War Magic alone, or maybe allow two attacks with a spell instead of three.
#7 Danny_Montanny Nov 21, 2014 8:27:25	I would go with bonus action as opposed to one of the attacks with the Attack action.   War Magic: Beginning at 7th level, when you use the Attack action, you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.   Improved War Magic: Starting at 18th level, when you use the Attack action, you can cast a spell as a bonus action. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.   Alternatively, I think you could tack this onto the features as they stand without them being too powerful. It would just give more versitility.