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| #1aoikazeDec 04, 2014 10:21:13 | Hi folks - I have a half-elf fey tome warlock who's just hit level 4, I'm trying to figure out my overall plan, and I'd like some input on the best way to multiclass sorcerer specifically. I've read the warlock guide, the sorcerer guide, the level dip guide, and several other threads on these and other boards, so I have a decent grasp of the principles, but I'm not sure what is really smartest. I'm pretty happy hexing and eldritch blasting everything most of the time, but my motivations for possibly multiclassing are that I'd like to expand my spell options a little bit, particularly to include more cold-based spells (my pact is with the Queen of Winter), and I'd like to have a few more spell slots, even if they're long rest-based.
As I see it, my multiclassing possibilities at the moment, short of a rebuild, are: A is more appealing than B to me because I like the flavor of the warlock and it's what I identify as most. I would do B if it's truly the best, but assuming I go with A, what's the best dip?
W4/S2/W14: Gets me the sorcerer basics without losing too much warlock progression at higher levels. However, it postpones my next ability increase until character L10.
W4/S4/W12: I get my ability increase at character L8, on schedule (I really want to max CHA ASAP), but I miss out on anything above warlock L16.
W4/S6/W10: I get the sorcerer L6 elemental feature, plus I still get my next ability increase at character L8, which will max out my CHA on schedule. But am I giving up too much from maxing out at warlock L14?
I'm not sure I fully understand the ramifications of metamagic, particularly as it interacts with my warlock spells, so that might be a factor too. I'm not sure how long the game will go on but I'd hope we'll go all the way to character L20. Thoughts, anyone? |
| #2NachturnusDec 04, 2014 10:51:34 |
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| (Reply to #2)aoikaze |
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| #4PramxnimDec 04, 2014 12:14:52 | There are so many ways you can go with this character now that you've made it past Warlock level 2. If you were at level 2 and considering a Sorcerer multiclass, I would recommend going Sorcerer all the way, hands down. But now that you are level 4, the line becomes a little bit blurrier.
The first level you gain in Sorcerer gains you 2 more cantrips (adding to your already impressive 6 cantrips known list) as well as two 1st level spell slots per long rest and 2 known 1st level spells. Due to how multiclassing works with Pact Magic, you can use your Sorcerer spell slots to cast Warlock spells, and use your Warlock spell slots to cast Sorcerer spells. This level provides you with 2 emergency spell slots, some nifty features like auto mage armor or Tides of Chaos. Not very exciting, but still good.
The 2nd level gives you 2 Sorcery points, which you can recharge with Warlock spell slots! If you find yourself still with Warlock spell slots at the end of a short rest, simply expend them and regain SPs. This allows you to generate Sorcerer spell slots, and gives you more low level utility spells throughout the day. Save your Warlock spell slots for your big hitting spells, and delegate your Sorcerer spell slots to spells like Charm Person, Shield and Hex. Oh yeah, this level is huge because it allows you to spam Hex with your Sorcerer slots. Since Hex is a substantial part of your sustained damage via Eldritch Blast, this gives you a lot more longevity on long adventuring days.
The 3rd level gives you 2 Metamagic options, which is super nice. Quickened and Twinned are the most obviously powerful choices, but Heightened is great for disabling dangerous foes, and Twinned spell doesn't work on spells cast with your Warlock spell slots unless you take more levels of Sorcerer (since your Warlock spell slots will be level 5 eventually, requiring 5 Sorcery points to Twin).
I think if you bothered to dip into Sorcerer, you might as well stay for Metamagic. It's an immensely powerful option that also adds some versatility to your Warlock. After the 3rd level, you are faced with a hard choice. If you keep going Sorcerer, you lose out on 9th level spells as well as the 4th Warlock spell slot. You won't be able to get 9th level Sorcerer spells anyway, so that's kind of moot too. There are some ways to go from here, but I highly recommend getting at least 6 levels of Warlock so you get 3rd level spell slots (allowing you to cast spells like Fireball and Haste with Warlock spell slots) as well as the useful Misty Escape ability. Some potential builds:
A) Warlock 4/ Sorcerer 16: 5 ASIs (ability score improvement), Sorcerer is your main focus, Warlock relegated to utility. Only 2nd-level Warlock spell slots. Can recover up to 4 Sorcery points per short rest. Not recommended.
B) Warlock 6/ Sorcerer 14: 4 ASIs, Sorcerer is your main focus, Warlock is utility / backup firepower. 3rd-level Warlock spell slots allow for more powerful spells usable every short rest. Can recover up to 6 Sorcery points per short rest. My personal recommendation.
C) Warlock 8/ Sorcerer 12: 5 ASIs, both classes are about equal in focus. You lack 7th level spells but can focus on casting crippling status effect 4th to 6th level spells.
D) Warlock 10/ Sorcerer 10: 4 ASIs. You are on the cusp of getting really powerful features from both classes (6th level spells for both classes, a 3rd spell slot for the Warlock). You're right at the end of tier 2 for each class (tier 3 starts at class level 11), but you'll never reach tier 3 while your other party members are all tier 3 or 4. TRAP OPTION. AVOID AT ALL COSTS.
E) Warlock 12/ Sorcerer 8: 5 ASIs, 3rd Warlock spell slot, 1 6th level Warlock spell per day. This is roughly the same as option C, though you end up with less Sorcery points, but more sustained spell slots per day. Consider whether or not you want 1 more spell slot per short rest, or 3 more spell slots per day (2 that are 5th level and can be recharged, 1 at 6th level). Personally I prefer option C, but if you want to be heavier on Warlock, this is a fine option.
F) Warlock 14/ Sorcerer 6: 4 ASIs, access to 3rd level Sorcerer spells. Fewer Sorcery points to work with, but you can recover almost all of them with just one Warlock spell slot, so there's that. The 14th level Fey patron feature is pretty sweet, and this is a great option if you only want a light splash of Sorcerer.
G) Warlock 16/ Sorcerer 4: 4 ASIs, only 2nd level Sorcerer spells. You don't get access to your 9th level Warlock spell slot. All this gives you over 3 levels of Sorcerer is an ASI. Not worth it
SECRET OPTION) Warlock 9/ Sorcerer 11: Normally odd level splits for caster classes are suboptimal, because most of their good features come at even levels. You only get 4 ASIs, and you lose out on your 10th level Patron feature (but that one isn't that good anyhow). This lands you with 6th level spellcasting on the Sorcerer side and 5th level spell slots on the Warlock side. You can recharge Sorcerery points fairly quickly (5 per Warlock spell slot spent) and you get 1 more Metamagic option to toy with. This split is not for everyone, as it looks super ugly. It's still viable, though.
For level progression, I would recommend getting your 5th or 6th level in Warlock before multiclassing. You'll want to be on the same tier as everyone else, since the tier changing levels (5, 11, 17) are when classes get a large power spike. Multiclassing before level 5 slows that spike down at the lower, more volatile stages of play, and is only recommended for specific builds that include less than 4 levels of a class. For you, I think you should wait until the end of 5th level at the least to grab your 1st level in Sorcerer. From there, go up to Sorcerer 3 and decide whether you wish to continue in Sorc, or take the rest of the levels in Warlock. Good luck on your journey! |
| #5durntaurDec 04, 2014 15:28:09 | Warlock is awesome because of all the utility built into it due to invocations, especially for tome-locks. Additionally, it has a great cantrip that ensures you can contribute to combat in a significant way without sacrificing utility. By pairing it with the sorcerer, you can further push the limits of damage output by sacrificing higher level warlock features while simultaneously retaining your utility. What you have to consider is the inherent cost-benefit of warlock spellcasting and the respective progression of sorcery points and warlock spell slot levels and the limitations those imply.
- The obvious strength of warlock spell slots is that they are recovered after a short rest. Though, from W2 to W10 you only have two slots. However, converting these slots to sorcery points could be very advantageous. - Warlock spell slots are L3 at W5, L4 at W7, and L5 at W9. - One cannot have more sorcery points than their level dictates. In this case, one gets 2SP at S2, 3SP at S3, and so forth. - Via metamagic, L1 spell slots yield 2SP, L2 spell slots yield 3SP, and on up to L5 spell slots yielding 7SP; L6+ spell slots cannot be converted.
With this data, you can plan an optimal class progression: as you are currently W4, you're next step is to start dipping into sorcerer, which brings us to your question, how far do I go?
To begin, consider the ramification of leveling to W5, your 2 spell slots become L3s. Via metamagic, a L3 slot will yield 5SP and since that requires S5 I would next level to S5 at the least (i.e. W4/S5). At this point, you've acquired your second ASI/feat but have started another set of 4 levels with sorcerer. So do you push to S8 or switch back to warlock? If you start down the warlock path, at W7 your spell slots will be L4 which will yield 6SP via metamagic, but to hold 6SP will require S6. Thus, I would choose to continue to W4/S6. Now you are 2 sorcerer levels away from another ASI/feat, but if you start leveling warlock more you can reach W8 while (1) retaining 100% SP output from your spell slots and (2) gaining more invocations at the cost of delaying your next ASI/feat 2 character levels overall (i.e. W4/S6/W4). The next question to consider is how deep you want to go into sorcerer, I would suggest no less than S7 because you'll eventually want your L5 warlock spell slots to fully convert to SP, but going all the way to S8 gets you another ASI/feat. Whatever your decision may be in this regard, I would stop at S8 as gaining W12 will get you a 6th invocation.
Of course, this analysis doesn't even consider other things like other class features, but it includes the variables I deemed both most measurable and important to my current campaign-character, resulting in the following: W4/S6/W4/S2/W4.
As a capstone to my analysis of this build, I compared different multiclass spell-slot/level matrix compositions in terms of sorcery point yield, which is entirely dependent on the number of short rests one might encounter before a long rest. For my comparison, I chose to compare my W12/S8 to a W8/12 and discovered the following:
- At 0 short rests, W8/S12 yielded markedly more SP than W12/S8. - At 1 short rest, the builds yield only a marginal/negligible difference in SP yield. - At 2 or more short rests, the W12/S8 dominated the the W8/S12 in SP yield.
It makes sense, given the different spellcasting rules for the classes, but performing this quantitative analysis affirmed my build decision. |
| #6DyndrilliacDec 04, 2014 13:16:13 | When I play a Tome warlock I like to dip one level of Draconic sorcerer for the extra cantrips, 1st-level spell slots, and Draconic Ancestry/Resilience. After that though, I feel like it's a waste. If you dip a second level, you miss out on your last warlock Ability Score Improvement. If you dip a third level, you lose an invocation (going from 8 to 7) which is huge because invocations can allow at-will casting of certain spells. If you dip a fourth level, you miss out on your 9th-level Mystic Arcanum spell, which is even more huge if you pick Foresight because it gives you advantage on every roll and imposes disadvantage on enemy attack rolls for a whopping 8 hours. Also, with 4 levels already invested in warlock, if you miss out on your 9th-level Mystic Incarnum, that means you will forever be without 9th-level spellcasting. A fifth level dip in sorcerer costs you one of your precious warlock spell slots which recover on a short rest where your sorcerer slots require a long rest. Lastly, a sixth level dip in sorcerer will cause you to lose your 8th-level Mystic Arcanum. This isn't as bad as losing the 9th, because if you go sorcerer the rest of the way you will eventually get 8th-level spellcasting. |
| #7durntaurDec 04, 2014 13:22:37 |
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| #8aoikazeDec 04, 2014 15:21:31 | All this awesome analysis is exactly what I was looking for. I will play around with the options when I have my PHB on me. Thanks everyone! |
| #9Stormborn20Dec 04, 2014 15:39:30 | If you are going for a chaotic sort of fey pact sorcerer build, I would recommend Warlock 14/Sorcerer 6. You'll get the 14th level pact boon as well as Bend Luck if you go Wild Magic which will help you get the most out of your spell slots for sneaky fey charms and such. 6 levels of sorcerer also gives you a high enough sorcery point maximum to make use of the 5th level warlock slots. |
| #10PramxnimDec 04, 2014 16:47:38 |
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| #11durntaurDec 04, 2014 17:16:26 |
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| (Reply to #11)Undrhil |
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| #13durntaurDec 04, 2014 23:46:59 |
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| #14YunruDec 05, 2014 2:35:26 | Sorcerer 14 is a must. Wings man, WINGS! |
| #15Stormborn20Dec 05, 2014 6:50:06 |
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| #16NachturnusDec 05, 2014 6:58:49 |
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| #17Stormborn20Dec 05, 2014 7:08:47 |
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| #18aoikazeDec 05, 2014 8:03:09 |
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| #19Stormborn20Dec 05, 2014 8:11:06 |
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| #20durntaurDec 05, 2014 9:16:31 |
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| (Reply to #20)aoikaze |
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| #22durntaurDec 05, 2014 15:36:43 |
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| (Reply to #22)aoikaze |
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| (Reply to #13)aoikaze |
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| #25YunruDec 06, 2014 12:16:18 | It's less how eqrly can you MC, it's how long until it pays off. If you've a sweet X/Y combp that doesn't come online until level 16 (e.g.: Sorcerer 6/Wizard 10) then you're not going to want to postpone it at all. If it only takes two levels (e.g.: dipping for Agonizing Eldritch Blast) yhrn you can get that concept online real quick. |
| #26durntaurDec 08, 2014 15:29:51 |
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