Hi there 
Me and my friends was discussing which martial class is the strongest 1v1 in a "trial by combat"-duel scenario.
Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin or Ranger? And which style?
And do you think the balance shifts through the level progression? (lets say 5, 10, 15, 20)
Raijin411 wrote:
It does depend on the level, the battlefield, and build.
If you can stealth around, rangers and monks do better.
If you start in melee, rangers lose much of their safty.
If you can pre-buff, paladins and rangers go up.
If you have shot rests between battles, fighter and monks goes up.
If you don't have any rests, fighters go up, as other's will run low on resources.
Assuming this is a 1/day battle, in an open arena, with pre-buffs, at range, and a undermined level...
1: Ranger Simply by dumping his control and offensive spells (ensaring strike, conjure animals) to keep the other one pinned while he arrows him.
2: Monk is probably next, with stun-lock flurry.
3: Paladins, strong smites and good defensive spells, though much of their power is in defending others.
4: Barbarians. They will likely be out-controled by others.
5: Fighters. They have the highest at-will damage, but action surge isn't enough of a nova.
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
mellored wrote:
Raijin411 wrote:
mellored wrote:
Raijin411 wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Raijin411 wrote:
Agreed. Since NPCs use different rules than PCs, there's nothing stopping you just attaching the bear totem rage to an existing NPC as is. Likewise for any number of monster traits (there's a whole section of the DMG on this), which occasionally mimic PC abilities but are adjusted for NPC use. (For instance, the Reckless trait (you find it on Berserker NPCs or on some monsters like the Minotaur) is almost identical to the barbarian's Reckless Attack, and the Spy literally has Cunning Action) You don't need to go through the song and dance of adding on class levels or anything - NPCs follow different rules from PCs, after all.
Just be advised that doing so will adjust the NPC's Challenge Rating, as described in the DMG.
I'd say a Polearm Master Barbarian with Sentinel would be a tough straight up melee fight.
I'm going to go ahead and put up a vote for Fighter.
Vengeance Paladin is designed for such a fight.
A valor bard or druid will make any metal armor wearing fighter very sad.
Are you allowing offensive spells? Any class that can cast Hold Person several times has to be considered a big threat. Or fly..... or greater invis.......
Well an open hand monk can just spam quivering Palm until something dies either from taking a full sweep of attacks alternating with 10d10 necrotic damage or just.... Dies. All while having pretty formidable defenses. Even a
barbarian with a +13 to their con saves still only needs to roll less than a 6 to fail a DC 19 con save. If you pull off 6 quivering palms that's 6 chances to roll less than a 6 or die. And even if they survive that they'd be taking 60d10 damage plus the damage from 3 unarmed strikes every other round.
Say you had two levels of diviner or three levels of lore bard..... You can force some low rolls and basically end things in two rounds. That might be outside the scope of this discussion though.
Hecetv wrote:
Vengeance paladin - cast hold person, close the gap, use oath of enmity. Go to town?
Would be more difficult if your opponent has good will saves however. But I'd still rate vengeance paladins as good contenders for duels.
let's say lvl10 so we dont go into "I'm batman" stuff.
depends on size of the arena. If its roman arena (around 300-500ft in size) a sharpshooter wood elf rogue with longbow will out kite every melee class except monk. But it would last forever. Unless there are places to hide in arena.
as stated before, vengeance paladin is build for this. If he gets hold person off, it's game over. 75+damage with greatsword and 3rd level smite and first level spell. 2 attacks in that round. Only one who can tank that is barbarian with 20 CON(125 HP) in RAGE. Add 50 HP heal to that.
barbarian6/ftr4(champion) half orc is also intimidating. polemaster. crit 19-20, advantage on attacks in rage. Half orc for crit bonus.
Horwath wrote:
Raijin411 wrote:
Depends on what classes are fighting, who goes first, did you speciaalize the character to beat a certain other character, and if a person makes saves or not. To many outcomes to have a "best" pvp class.
You know what I just realized? The Polearm Master/Sentinel has one huge Fatal Flaw. The Dodge Action. So much for their "Opportunity Attack of Doom." Because PCs tend to have good AC, I'd say set the number, as an average, at about 16. For a level 1 Human Fighter, that's, on average, a 50-65% chance of failure, coupled with Disadvantage, so the odds quickly turn back to a toss up.
It really depends. How many combats are we assuming? How many short rests are we assuming?
My money would be on a barbarian or Paladin winning a straight up melee fight against all the other classes.
transcendantviewer wrote:
I think we are speaking in terms that are way too vague. If anyone is interested, I started a thread for more a more detailed competition.
polearm/sentinal's flaw is ranged weapons. crossbow expertise just doesn't care.
monks can also dodge as a bonus action.
Coredump00 wrote:
well lets start at level 1 and check some groups against each other, lets first test them as fully rested and no pre buffs, and then test them with pre buffing.
the arena is based on the roman arena circular with a tough dirt and sand on the ground.
standard array 15,14,13,12,10,8
Starting equipment only
So we have a Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, monk
Barbarian: Race Half Orc (it is a good fit)
STR: 16, DEX: 13, CON: 16, INT: 8, WIS: 12, CHA: 10
HP: 15, AC: 14, save proficiencies STR, and CON.
Two Handed Great axe: +5, (1d12+3), Rage: +5 (1d12+5)
Two hand axes: +5, (1d6+3) 20/60 S Four javelins: +5 (1d6) 30/120 P
While raging takes half damage from non magical attacks
When dropped to 0 1/per day you can stay at 1 hp
when you score a critical hit you deal an extra die of damage.
For the combat portion of design this is a reasonable build for a half orc.
Due to the difficulty of maintaining distance in a one on one fight this will be a two weapon ranger
Ranger: Race: Wood Elf
STR: 12 DEX: 16, CON: 13, INT: 10, Wis: 16, CHA: 8
HP: 11, AC: 16, saves STR and DEX
main hand short sword: +5 (1d6+3), off hand +5 (1d6)
Long bow: +5 (1d8+3) 150/600
No major combat special abilities
scale mail
Fighter: Race: Mountain Dwarf
STR: 17, DEX: 12, CON: 16, INT: 10, WIS: 13, CHA: 8
HP: 13, AC: 18, Saves: STR, and CON
Battle Axe: +5 (1d8+5)
two hand axes: +5 (1d6+3) 20/60
Fighting style duelist, chain mail, shield
Second wind: once per short rest as a bonus action heal 1d10+1 hp
paladin: race: dragon born
STR: 16, DEX: 12 CON: 13 INT: 8 WIS: 10 CHA: 16
HP: 11, AC: 18, SAVES: WIS, and CHA
Long Sword: +5 (1d8+3)
Fire resistance
Fire breath 1/short rest: 1 action: 2d6 fire damage 15ft cone, DC: 13 for half
Monk: Human
STR: 11, DEX: 16, CON: 14, INT: 9, WIS: 15, CHA: 13
HP: 10, AC: 15, Saves: STR, DEX
Short sword: +5 (1d6+3), bonus unarmed strike: +5 (1d4+3)
okay off from work so I will post some comparisons now that the builds are posted when I get home.
Comparison continued
Lets start with damage per round calculations
so the represented AC's are 14, 15, 16, 18
now then all of them have a +5 to hit so the target numbers stay the same.
9,10,11,and 13
average damage in rage would be 11.5, critical damage 3d12+10=29.5
for first target 11.5damage * (.5 chance to hit) + 29.5 * (.05) = 7.225 per round
target two 11.5 * (.45) + 29.5 * (.05) = 5.175
target three: 11.5 * (.4) + 29.5 * (.05)= 4.6
target four: 11.5 * (.3) + 29.5 * (.05) = 3.45
so the barbarian is capable of dealing 4.6 damage a round to the ranger, 3.45 damage to the fighter, and the paladin, and 5.175 to the monk each round.
Ranger: has two attacks on average of 6.5, and the other 3.5
so above is an example of my formula the rest is done via excel spread sheet
on a crit the damage doubles to 13, and 7
target 1: the barbarian would take 6 a round if he was not damage resistant so he takes 3
target 2: the fighter will be taking 3 damage as well, as will the paladin
target 3: the monk would be taking 4.5 damage a round
Fighter: deals an average 9.5 damage and 19 on a crit
target 1: the barbarian would take 2.85 damage a round after damage resistance
target 2: the range would take 3.8 damage a round
target 3: the paladin would take 2.85 damage a round
target 4: the monk would take 4.275 damage a round
Paladin: deals an average 7.5 damage a round (his fire breath would only really be good for groups, or maybe against the barbarian)
Target 1: the barbarian would take 2.25 damage a round
target 2: the ranger would take 3 damage per round
target 3: the fighter would take 2.25 damage per round
target 4: the monk would take 3.375 damage per round
Monk: deals an average damage of 6.5 with his short sword, and 5.5 with his unarmed strike
target 1: the barbarian will take 3.6 damage a round from the monks
target 2: the ranger would take 4.8 damage a round from the monk
target 3: the fighter and paladin would take 3.6 damage per round
Okay so now we have the average damage per round.
with the hps of each character we can calculate how long it takes to drop each of them
Barbarian
Ranger: would take 3 rounds to drop (2.39)
Fighter: would normally take about 4 rounds (3.77) but since second wind is a bonus action the fighter can easily recover 6.5 hp which improves his survival rounds to 5.65 rounds or 6 to drop
Paladin: would take 3.19 rounds which will take 4 to drop, or 5 to drop if he takes an action to use lay on hands on himself
Monk: he will last 2 rounds of combat
Ranger
Barbarian: he will last 5 rounds plus an additional 1 round from his half orc abilities
Fighter: he will last 5 rounds without second wind or 7 rounds with
Paladin: he will last 4 rounds or 6 rounds with lay on hands
Monk: he will last 3 rounds
Fighter
Barbarian: 6 rounds +1 half orc
Ranger: 3 rounds
Paladin: 6 rounds
Monk: 3 rounds
Paladin (if the paladin uses lay on hands it adds an extra round to each combat)
Barbarian: 7 rounds +1 round half orc
Fighter: 9 rounds
Ranger: 4 rounds
Monk: 3 rounds
Monk
Barbarian: 5 rounds +1 round half orc
Ranger: 3 rounds
Fighter: 6 rounds
Paladin: 5 rounds
The barbarian and the fighter both last 6 rounds except the half orc side of the barbarian keeps him alive for one extra round so barbarian wins vs. fighter
The barbarian vs. the ranger: the barbarian can last 6 rounds, while the ranger only lasts 3 rounds so the barbarian takes the fight.
The barbarian vs. the Paladin: the paladin holds for 5 with lay on hands, but the barbarian lasts for 9 rounds because of that so easy win.
The barbarian vs. the Monk, the monk is down in 2 while the barbarian takes a good long while to drop.
Since the barbarian wins all encounters mathematically thus the others cannot win all of theirs so the barbarian wins level 1.