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| #1eyriekingAug 25, 2015 11:53:23 | Who needs ability scores: A guide to feats
What are feats?In 5e, feats are a (common) alternate rule that allows you to trade ability score improvements for various abilities. These abilities are useful to every class, and can completely change a character build or idea.
Color coding:This guide will use the following ratings. The ratings are compared to taking an ability score improvement and other feats. None of the feats are bad in a vacuum, it is an opportunity cost to choose the feat. If a class is not mentioned, it is basically a waste of feat choice, and I would under no circumstances choose the feat.(some language and colors "borrowed" from RhaegarT and TheBigHouse)
When choosing a feat, always consider if it is better than an ability score increase. Here is a general guide as to what I rate attribute score increases
Assumptions:I assume that you are using point buy(p13 of the PHB), and not rolling for your stats. If you roll for your stats and your primary attribute is odd, then increase the rating of the feats that give you points in that attribute. Normally though, I am assuming that this means that none of your primary scores should be odd unless you plan on taking a feat to fix odd attribute scores. (This is because an odd score does not increase your modifier, which is by far the most common use of an attribute. For example, a strength score of 14 and 15 both have a str modifier of 2).
This solves the common argument saying that "athlete (or whatever) is good because you can change your 17 strength into an 18, which is the same as 19". While this is true, your strength was only 17 in the first place because you took a 15 in strength instead of 14, which gave you two less point-buy-points to spend on another attribute.
Useful links:The players handbook errata http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf. This corrects or clarifies several rules in the phb, and I will reference this occasionally throughout the article
Sage advice compendium http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.02.pdf. This answers common questions about various confusing rules in the phb. I will also reference this occasionally.
Feats that give you attribute modifiersCheck under "assumptions" for my thoughts on these feats. If a feat lets you choose, I include it under all possible attributes. None of these feats let you raise your score above 20.
Feats:AlertClasses: Rogue (assasin), spellcasters, Everyone else, Barbarians We start with one of the best feats in the game, and one of the most versatile. This is worse if you already have someone in the party with this feat, since many dms let you warn your allies so they dont get surprised either. Barbarians don't need this because at level 7 they have "feral instinct" which means they cant be surprised. The initiative is nice, but not as important for barbarians as spellcasters. They do like to rage before enemies get a chance to attack them, but barbarians get alot from stats and other feats.
AthleteClasses: Frontliners who benefit from str or dex
ActorClasses: Bards and warlocks who like being tricky, rogues This is a fun rollplaying feat, but its not amazing. Try to pair it with a disguise kit or a spell that can change your appearence.
ChargerClasses: Barbarian, fighter, or any frontliner who likes charging ahead
At first glance, this feat seems very useful. +5 to damage rolls or a free shove are both decent, and it lets you move far and attack. However, most of the time you will only get to use this feat once per battle. How often are you charging in, then backing up and charging in again? You will probably provoke oppurtunity attacks if you do this, and you probably would rather stay in and protect the backline. It also uses your bonus action, which has serious competition from some other feats (polearm master, for one) That said, its a fun idea, and if you can figure out a way to use it effectively, go right ahead. I'd rather the strength or dexterity though.
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| #2eyriekingSep 02, 2015 12:24:03 | Crossbow ExpertClasses: Rangers, Rogues, or anyone who has proficiency with hand crossbows and has a way to take advantage on multiple weaker attacks. Ranged dex fighters, spellcasters This is a great feat that lets you increase your damage per round. Keep in mind it uses your bonus action, so if you are using your bonus action (to hide as a rogue, for example) then you dont get an extra attack. It also lets spellcasters make spell attacks at close range without disadvantage, but thats not worth a feat. Just make them do a saving throw, or teleport away.
Defensive DuelistClasses: Any melee frontliner who uses finesse weapons(Fighter, paladins, rangers, monks) If an enemy hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to add your proficiency bomus to your AC if you are wielding a finesse weapon: This is pretty good for survivability. Adding +2 to +6 to your AC will stop many attacks from hitting you. The main drawback is that this requires your reaction, and only applies to one attack. At higher levels many powerful enemies will have mulitattack, and other times you will have to tank hits from many weaker enemies, reducing the effectiveness. Still, if you don't have another feat that allows you to use your reaction's defensively, this can be a decent feat. Note that you don't have to actually use your dex to fight, only wield a finesse weapon (so no two handed weapons).
Dual WielderClasses: Dual wielding fighters and Rangers (TWF style), Other duel wielders Overall, a few useful traits, but nothing spectacular. Seems nice at first, but worse than an ability score improvement and many other feats.
Dungeon DelverClasses: Anyone with good perception or investigation with a dm who likes throwing traps at you. Everyone else First of all, don't take this if your dm doesn't throw traps or secret doors at you often. This rating assumes you are constantly dungeon diving in areas with traps, and even then I wouldn't take this early. Keep in mind that if you take this feat your party will make you the trap monkey, so if you are a wizard with low health, it may not be the best idea to take this feat.
DurableClasses: Fighters, barbarians, paladins melee rangers with high Con modifiers. Everyone else This is an interesting feat, that can be very useful if your party often takes short rests in between battles. If you have alot of characters in the party with features that regenerate during short rests (monks, warlocks, battlemaster fighters), this makes it more likely that you will take rests. This feat is especially useful if you are playing in a campaign with healing surges, which is an optional rule from the dmg that lets you spend hit dice as an action.
Elemental AdeptClasses: Sorcerer. Other casters that like a certain spell type Spells you cast ignore resistance to damage of the chosen type (Acid, Cold, Fire, Lighnting, or Thunder). In addition when you roll damage for a spell you cast that deals damage of this type, you treat any 1 as a 2. The ratings are only if you choose fire. This is because there are the most fire spells by far, and fire is only of the most common resistances. Since sorcerer's do more damage with their chosen elemental type at level 6, they want to cast their type as much as possible, and this feat helps. For wizards and other casters, they can usually just choose a different spell that does similar damage (lighting bolt instead of fireball for example). The damage increase isnt much, you take this to ignore resistances. I still wouldn't get this until my spellcasting modifier is maxed, unless I'm in campaign with lots of resists against my primary damage type. Keep in mind that if they have an immunity to the damage type, this doesn't let you do damage to them.
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| #3eyriekingSep 01, 2015 12:11:41 | GrapplerClasses: Any medium front liner who has high strength and proficiency in athletics. If you have a combo (see examples below) This is an interesting feat that combos nicely with tavern brawler if you are making a grappler. Its somewhat situational, but it can be super powerful if you can pull it off. You can hold the enemy spellcaster in a silence spell, completely shutting down a spellcaster! If you have a spellcaster who has a spell with repeating damage or nasty effects (cloud of daggers, for one), you can keep them in the effect. Consider getting a caster to cast enlarge on you, which allows you to grab huge creatures (adult dragons, for one) and gives you advantage on the checks to grapple them. (especially good with the UA artifier who can make enlarge potions, which dont require concentration). Somewhat situational though. Against groups of enemies you will probably be attacking, and if the big bad boss has allies you will be focused hard.
Great Weapon MasterClasses: Barbarians, fighters with GWF style, Vengence paladins with GWF style, other paladins Lots of discussion on this one below. Barbarians are great because they have reckless attack to offset the to-hit penalty, and they have stronger crits which go well with the first part. Fighters have alot of oppurtunities for feats and not much bonus action competition. Vengence paladins can get easy advantage, which works nicely with the second part. All paladins make very good use of ability score improvements, because they need strength to hit and charisma for saves and for the amazing aura of protection, so for other types of paladins I lowered it a rating. Also, paladins will often be using their bonus action to cast smites, which means they dont get an extra attack.
HealerClasses: Thiefs, Anyone who has room in their build. This is a great feat, especially if you do not have a healer on your team. Keep in mind that this does cost money, but healer's kits really arent that expensive (especially compared to healing potions). Don't get this if someone in your party already has this feat, because the second feature doesn't stack. If you can convince your DM to let you have a follower who can learn this feat, make them learn this and enjoy the cheap healing. Thiefs are sky blue because you could use a healing kit as a bonus action with the "use an object" action that gets added to their cunning action. Ask your dm, because they might interpret this rule differently (since the feat does say that it requires an action), or say that it requires two hands to apply the healing kit.
Heavily armoredClasses: Clerics who don't have heavy armor from their domain, Strength valor bards, strength rangers (who dont like sneaking), multiclassers This feat just seems worse then the Medium Armor Master feat almost every time. Everyone who really wants strength already has proficiency in heavy armor(except for barbarians, who cant rage with heavy armor), and you need 15 strength to not move slowly in the armor. You could put a 14 in strength, bump it up to 15 with this feat, and wear plate armor... or you could put a 16 in dex and use a breastplate and get 18 AC anyway (with medium armor master). Plus you dont have disadvantage on stealth, have higher initiative, and you can sneak around with your rogue. Dex is a better stat then strength for all the classes that dont already have proficiency in this armor, and since you can get the same AC i find this feat unlikely to be used.
Heavy Armor MasterClasses: Fighter, paladin, cleric Good feat for dedicated tanks.
Inspiring leaderClasses: Anyone with good charisma. Anyone with an average charisma You can spend ten minutes and give up to six friendly creatures temporary hp equal to your level+cha modifier once per short rest Temporary hp is always good, it only requires time, and you can do it before battle. Keep in mind that temporary hp does not stack with other temporary hp effects, as you only get to choose one of the effects. This means it loses some appeal if you are teamed with party members that already have temporary hp (Warlock's with Fiendish vigor, for example).
Keen MindClasses: Wizard. anyone else This is a fun feat for wizards with odd intelligence scores, but it really does not offer much besides flavor.
Lightly ArmoredClasses: wild magic Sorcerer, wizards Light armor gives you at most 2 AC more then you would have without armor. If you are a dragon sorcerer then your unarmored defence is better than light armor, and wizards can just cast mage armor on themselves. Sure, this allows you to later take the moderately armored feat, but at that point its easier just to multiclass cleric or something. I guess this is purple if you have +1(or better) studded leather armor.
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| #4eyriekingSep 26, 2015 21:31:43 | LinguistClasses: Wizard I guess?
LuckyClasses: All if you have room Now this feat is cool, and once you max your primary stat you could always grab this feat. Fail a deadly saving throw? reroll it. Miss a powerful spell attack? reroll it. You get crited by a powerful attack? reroll it! they may even miss. This is especially useful for casters who want to make sure that they maintain concentration on a spell. For example, if you cast conjure elemental and lose concentration, it attacks you, but you could reroll the saving throw and try again. The only way this feat would be better was if you could force enemies to reroll saving throws (diviniation wizards say hi). Also, lucky is amazing if you have disadvantage, because you actually get to choose any of the three dice you roll if you spend a luck die, overriding the disadvantage rule. (sage advice). Wow.
Mage SlayerClasses: Weapon using frontliners in a mage heavy campaign, Weapon using frontliners in a normal campaign, backliners in a mage heavy campaign This feat is super situational, as it totally depends on the type of campaign your dm is running. You generally won't get this unless you know that you will be fighting lots of spellcasters. If you know that you are, then you can be really annoying the the enemy spellcasters. Idealy you would get close to the mage early (paladin with misty step, eldritch knight with arcane charge), teleport next to the mage (maybe with sentinal feat to keep them from running) and keep the mage from hurting your party (make sure you can survive). They are unlikely to be able to ignore the big person in front of them who keeps breaking their concentration. Remember that this works for enemies with innate spellcasting abilities as well.
Magic initiateClasses: If you have room and a plan This is a very fun feat. Note that the sage advice clarified that the intent is that if you have spell slots from your class, you may only cast the spell learned from this feat if it is of a class that you have spell slots in. This means if you learn shield on your druid/cleric, for example, you can only cast it once oer day, Choose a spellcasting class. You learn two cantrips from that class, and one 1st level spell that you can cast once per day using the spellcasting modifier of your chosen class
Here are some ideas of spells to take with this feat. In general, avoid the damaging cantrips and spells because you should have something that does more damage. Cantrips:
1st level spells
Martial adeptClasses: Battlemaster fighter, other weapon users Basically, you get this feat if you really need more versatility with maneuvers and an extra die. I don't see this as that useful. Its not red because fighters get lots of chances to get feats, but they already learn plenty of maneuvers and one extra die per short rest is not going to make or break your character. For character without superiority dice already, I consider this to be a waste of a feat. Once per short rest you do slightly more damage and can add a decent but not great disabiling effect to the enemy. I'd rather choose a feat that gives you something to do every turn. You learn two maneuvers of your choice from the battlemaster archetype, and you gain one superiority die. If you didnt have a die already, it is a d6. Medium armor MasterClasses: Valor bard, multiclassers who don't want to max dex, dex fighters, dex paladins, dex rangers, barbarian This lets you get your (unshielded) AC to 18, which is 1 more then a +5dex character with light armor, 1 more than a +2dex character with a half plate(who has disadvantage on stealth), or 2 more then a +2 dex character with. Definitely worth considering if you want to have high AC, especially if you aren't planning on maxing dex. Valor bards really like this, because they want to be sneaky and generally use dex to attack, but often want to max charisma. Dex fighters, paladins, and rangers probably have better feats to take or ability scores to improve, since they will probably plan to max their dexterity and this only gives them +1 AC in the end. Barbarians are very stat hungry (and have unarmored defence anyway), and would probably rather max str, con, dex, or take a feat for more damage.
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| #5eyriekingAug 28, 2015 0:16:54 | MobileClasses: Melee rangers, melee rogues, monks, blade warlocks, melee figheters, melee barbarians, melee paladins, way of the open hand monks, anyone else This feat is just fun. I especially love having this on monks, because it gives you a rediculous movement speed and enemies cant catch you. Also fun if you have the ability to fly, since you basically get flyby if you try to hit them. You can basically run circles around enemies if you get enough speed.
Moderately ArmoredClasses: Lore bards, Warlocks, rogues This is nice for lore bards who find the dm targetting them, since it provides easy AC without much dex investement (and shields, but be careful to have the correct spell components). Warlocks can cast mage armor at will if they want. If they are blade, then they probably want to max their dex(16 at level 1), which means a 16 AC (which is the same as breastplate). If they arent blade, they probably want to focus on more damage instead of being tanky, because that isnt really their job. The shield is nice, but this probably means they need the warcaster feat in addition to cast most of their spells. Medium armor might actually decrease the AC of a rogue, and using a shield on a rogue is weird. If you want to be a tanky rogue, multiclass or stop being a rogue.
Mounted CombatantClasses: Paladin, any melee class who can find a cool mount (pegasis, anyone?), any other melee class who likes riding a horse, wizards with phantom steed I might be biased but I love this feat. Lots of dangerous enemies are smaller than a horse (which is large), and you have lots of ways of keeping the mount alive with this feat. Also, paladins get find steed which makes it really easy to get a mount. Wizards get phantom steed, but normal wizads don't want to attack at melee, and don't really want to redirect attacks to themselves. Plus, its a ritual so you can just make a new one.
ObservantClasses: Clerics, Druids, monks, rangers, or wizards, anyone else Not a bad feat if you have an odd score in wisdom or intelligence, since +5 passive perception is very useful. Otherwise, I'd rather just get alert, because then I can't be surprised and I might get to go first.
Polearm masterClasses: Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin strength ranger, cleric, monk Oh boy, this feat is amazing. A way to use your reaction offensively and a way to use your bonus action all in one feat. The extra attack does allow you to add your strength modifier to the damage, plus any additional damage you do. This includes: barbarian rage damage, superiority die, and divine smites (including improved). It does not include clerics divine strikes, because these can only work once per turn. Plus, this feat combos super well with the sentinal feat. Its not as good on strength rangers because rangers tend to be a bit bonus action deprived, and strength rangers are probably not as good as dex rangers anyway. Clerics arent usually doing much damage with weapons, but this lets them do way more damage when they don't want to cast spells. Monks can use this with a quarterstaff for offensive reactions, but the bonus action is worse then an unarmed strike from a monk.
ResilientClasses: Spellcasters who need to maintain concentration, frontliners or anyone targeted by the dm often, everyone else This seems feat seems boring at first, but its actually really really good. Con saving throws are really really common, and taking this feat gives you a much better chance at succeeding on the saving throw. For summoners or people who like having powerful concentration spells, this feat is really important at high levels. If your dm likes targeting you down with bad spell effects, wisdom saves make it much harder to break you. And dex saves are nice for reducing huge damaging effects, such as the breath attack of dragons and the fireball spell. The ratings assume you planned ahead and have an odd number, otherwise it goes down a rating.
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| #6eyriekingSep 01, 2015 12:35:32 | Ritual CasterClasses: Anyone if you dont already have a ritual caster, Anyone who already has a wizard/ritual caster in the party, non wizards who already have ritual casting, wizards I find this one hard to rate. I only rate it blue because find familiar is such a great spell that really works with any class. I mean sure, you learn alot of useful spells, but you probably have at least one spellcaster in your party who can do all of the detect magics that you need. For reference, bards get 12, clerics get 12, druids get 12, sorcerers get 4, warlocks get 4, and Wizards get 17. I would choose wizard, which gets you (2 or more of) alarm, find familiar(awesome), detect magic, and find familiar. If your dm lets you find higher level rituals, you can get leomund's tiny hut (basically free safe long rests), phantom steed (free fast travel for an hour), and rary's telepathic bond (now the dm can't yell at you for discussing strategy mid battle)
Savage AttackerClasses: Melee Rogue, Paladin, melee ranger, Fighter, Barbarian This is a decent feat that increases the likelihood that you will deal a good amount of damage with your attacks. The attacks must be melee, and you can only do it once per turn. I consider this to be inferior to lots of the other amazing damaging feats. Instead of doing more damage with one attack, why not do way more with great weapon master or get an extra attack with polearm master? One thing to note is that it should work with sneak attack damage and paladin smites, which at high levels could mean a huge damage difference. Unfortunately, most rogues are ranged, and paladins are very stat and feat hungry. Once per turn when you roll damage for a melee weapon attack, you can reroll the weapon's damage dice and use either total.
SentinalClasses: Weapon using Frontliners (Fighter, paladin, barbarian, melee rangers) This feat is awesome, but unfortunately requires your reaction to work. This means at most you can use it once per turn. However, it makes you way more "sticky", meaning enemies are more likely to attack you instead of the squishy mage in the back. This feat also combos nicely with the Polearm Master feat, because when they move within 10 feet of you then you get an oppurtunity attack, and if you hit they cant move closer. Enemies with low AC that dont have reach basically can't hit you with melee attacks, which is hilarious. Unfortunately the third feature requires you to be within 5ft of the enemy, so you have to move closer. It is also confirmed that opportunity attacks only happen when you move out of the range of your weapon (10ft with a reach weapon) which gives them more room to run around beside you if you move next to them. Still fun and useful.
SharpshooterClasses: rogues, rangers, and ranged fighters Another amazing feat that almost every ranged class will take at some point. The main selling point is the last part, which can really pump up your damage per round against certain enemies.
Shield masterClasses: Totem Barbarians, clerics, fighters, paladins, and melee rangers who use shields,valor bards, sun druids , moon druids, beserker barbarians This is a decent feat that actually has an offensive use as well as the defensive ones. Make sure to have proficiency in athletics, because that allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the strength checks to shove. Best on barbarians because they have advantage on the strength check while raging and have good dex and great strength. (keep in mind this feat is worse on totem barbarians that take the wolf features, because the features do similar things to this feat) To get benefit from all parts of this feat, you need to have a good strength for shoves and a good dex for making the saving throws. Its worse on bards because they need to give out bardic inspiration as bonus actions, so they cant shove as often (and they are often dex anyways). Sun druids cant shove either because they are probably in the backline, and moon druids are usually in beast form and dont get to use shields at all (unless your dm lets you use a shield as an ape or something). The whole point of beserker is to make an extra free weapon attack as a bonus action, which means you shouldn't be using a shield. If you have a shield, you shouldn't be using it to shove, and the other features don't make this feat good enough.
SkilledClasses: Any class that doesnt have perception or other important skills So for most skills you only need one person to take care off. The main exceptions are athletics and acrobatics(if you find yourself getting shoved a lot), animal handling (if you are riding an animal), perception, and stealth. Perception and stealth are the only super important skills. If you are taking perception, just take observant (increase your passive perception by 5) or alert (you cant be surprised). Stealth is useful, but the classes where it is required already have it as an option, and there are lots of ways to grab stealth if your class doesnt get you it. Thieves tools are nice if you dont have a rogue I guess, but there are so many better feats than this.
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| #7eyriekingSep 01, 2015 20:51:10 | SkulkerClasses: rogues, rangers Underwhelming feat. Doesn't give you much most of the time, but some of the can be useful
Spell SniperClasses: Bard, other spellcasters that use attack rolls Not as amazing as it sounds. Only works on spells that use attack rolls, and most of those spells have a plenty long range. However, this gives bards eldritch blast, so they can do consistent decent cantrip damage.
Tavern brawlerClasses: Melee strength grapplers, monks, druids
This can be useful, allowing you to do damage and grapple the enmy. The black rating assumes that your dm lets you use a big piece of wood or something as an improvised weapon that does more than d4 damage. I would say that at least you could at least use a big stick that has the stats of a quarterstaff, allowing you to swing and hit them for d8 damage if you hold it with two hands, and a d6 if you are grabbing someone already. Obviously goes well with the grappler feat. Also, its not that good on monks. Sure, monks do alot of damage with their fists, but they are trading a grapple attempt for an unarmed strike, and their strength probably isnt that good. Druids can wild shape into an ape and try to grapple the target while still punching them twice. Unfortunately, apes aren't that good and don't scale (try grappling a death knight as an ape), and giant apes are CR 7, which means you cant wild shape into one ever.
ToughClasses: Moon druids, Non spellcasting frontliners, spellcasting frontliners, backliners Sounds good, but you can just put two points into con and get half the hp benefit, while getting higher con saving throws (which are some of the most common in the game. I would usually rather improve my con score, especially on casters. I am currently under the impression that moon druids probably can add the extra hp to their wild shape forms. Wild shape says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source if the form is physically capable of doing so." It doesn't seem far fetched that your bear is physically capable of being extra tough. Definitely ask your dm though. Increase your hit points by an amount equal to twice your level. Wheever you gain a level, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points War casterClasses: Any sort of... warcaster, such as eldritch knights or multiclassers. , clerics who want to cast "V,S" spells, other casters who like con saves, any other caster Great feat that is almost required for people who multiclass their casters into armor and shields, or have armor and shields already. Even just the first part is great, but is usually worse than resiliant (con) at high levels. Note that clerics can cast spells with a material component without this feat. This is because they can put their holy symbol on their shield, and if you cast a spell with a material componenet you can use the hand holding the material componenet to provide the somatic componenets as well(p203 phb, p6 sage advice.) Still useful for clerics, but not required.
Weapon masterClasses: Anyone who doesn't have proficiency in the weapons they want Never choose this feat. If your class doesnt give you access to good martial weapons, its probably because you dont need them. The only class where I see the temptation is if you want to make a non dwarf cleric, because they dont have proficiency in martial weapons. If you use a shield (which you probably should as a cleric) then it increases your damage die from a d6 to a d8, which is one more damage per turn on average. If you dont use a shield for some reason, it increases your damage from a d8 to a d12, which is two more damage, and you should consider if you should make a paladin instead of a cleric.
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| #8eyriekingSep 01, 2015 20:52:31 | Edits:
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| #9Tempest_StormwindAug 25, 2015 15:30:54 | I'd use the color rating for context - i.e. Alert is sky blue for rogues/spellcasters, blue for everyone else (with one exception), so you might list it as:
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| #10eyriekingAug 25, 2015 15:33:12 | Thanks for the advice on formatting. It is my first guide (although i've read several here), and I'm still in the process of finishing the guide, but I like your suggestion and will probably change to that format.
Good point about the thief (never played as or with one, because... you know, assasin). It would definitely be a dm ruling. I would argue that you could use your bonus action, but you would probably need two hands to apply the kit, just on initial thought. I will definitely mention that combo though, because if your dm allows it thats probably sky blue.
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| #11sudsboyAug 25, 2015 17:22:45 | The note on Defensive Duelist about Monks is incorrect. Monks get to use their Martial Arts damage on Monk weapons, so short swords are good their whole career. It may still be slightly worse for them as a class with abilities that require their reaction, but Battlemaster Fighters, Eldritch Knights, and maybe others would suffer similarly. |
| #12Tempest_StormwindAug 25, 2015 17:41:34 | My comments on your current feats (up through Lucky):
I'd also like to bring up that the point-buy costs in 5e are interesting. In 3.5, scores started at 8 and you spent 1 point to raise a score by 1 all the way until you hit 14, then the costs started getting higher, and you could buy all the way up to 18. In 5e, the costs are 1:1 until 13, and you can only buy up to 15. Both of these cases are places where an odd ability score increase can change an ability modifier - such as the +1 that some feats offer. With some creativity, you can wind up dramatically improving one or two secondary or dump stats in addition to keeping your primary stat acceptably high and getting a feat ability using this trick.
A second point: Every class only has five ability score increases, except for rogues (six) and fighters (seven). That makes rogues and fighters (and variant humans) the best choices for those to consider a feat - or even two. |
| #13Cyber-DaveAug 25, 2015 18:26:26 | Crossbow expert, greatweapon master, polearm master (or whatever that feat is called, I don't have my book with me), and sharpshooter should all be either light blue or gold. Feats like linguist and actor should be sky blue for anyone who starts with an odd score in Cha/Int and has Cha/Int as a primary spellcasting stat. Sure, they might not be great compared to something like warcaster if you don't have an odd stat, but if you have an odd stat, and you need to raise your primary spellcasting stat, taking something like Actor is strictly superior to taking a +2 to Cha (to, once again, end up with an odd stat). Actor specifically combines very well with charlatan and abilities like mask of many faces. |
| (Reply to #11)eyrieking |
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| #15Greenstone.WalkerAug 25, 2015 19:01:28 |
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| #16Cyber-DaveAug 25, 2015 20:09:26 |
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| (Reply to #16)eyrieking |
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| (Reply to #12)eyrieking |
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| (Reply to #15)eyrieking |
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| #20ArialBlackAug 25, 2015 22:21:12 | I'm not sure you can get hunter's mark with Magic Initiate, but if you could tell us how, I'd be grateful.
At first glance it is a first level spell and the feat lets you choose one first level spell. The trouble is, when you look in detail you realize that this spell must be a first level spell on one of the following class spell lists: bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, wizard. That spell is not on any of those lists. |
| (Reply to #13)bid |
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| #22rgoodbbAug 25, 2015 23:06:45 | Substitute with cousin Hex? |
| #23cannonfodderAug 25, 2015 23:08:03 |
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| #24melloredAug 26, 2015 9:57:44 |
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| #25melloredAug 26, 2015 10:04:40 | Also, defensive dualist doesn't need Dex. Any caster class that is in melee (clerics, bards, abjuration wizards, valor bards, wild sorcerer's) can simply grab a dagger in their off-hand.
Even a Str based sword & board fighter could use a raiper over a longsword with no loss. |
| #26Tempest_StormwindAug 26, 2015 10:28:07 |
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| #27TheBigHouseAug 26, 2015 10:53:02 | Great start. Looking forward to more.
Comments:
Great Weapon Master is actually amazing for barbarians. They can combine with reckelss attack to offset the penalty and do big damage. Rolling with advantage also increases their chance to crit, and thus to gain the bonus action attack. IMO it's sky blue for great weapon fighters or barbarians that aren't using polearms, as it adds a way for them to use their bonus action at least some turns. It is also especially good for champion fighters.
Mobile, might be worth noting that this feet is pretty good for grapple builds.
Durable, i dont have the math in front of me, but I think that this feat is pretty much just worse than +2 con, unless you have the unlikely combination of a very small hit die and a very high con mod. You have to gain at least an average of +2 hp per hit die spent in order for it to beat +2 con, but even then it doesnt increase your max hp or your very important con save throw.
Shillelagh: Looks like a typo, you stopped in the middle of a
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| #28Cyber-DaveAug 26, 2015 11:24:28 |
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| (Reply to #23)eyrieking |
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| #30TheBigHouseAug 26, 2015 11:32:25 |
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| #31Cyber-DaveAug 26, 2015 11:41:01 |
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| (Reply to #28)Zardnaar |
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| #33melloredAug 26, 2015 11:52:56 |
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| (Reply to #28)eyrieking |
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| #35ZardnaarAug 26, 2015 12:24:29 | Polearm master is better by itself. Theres only 3 feats in the game I regard as gold (warcaster, resiliant, sharpshooter) The best of whats left is alertness, crossbow expert, polearm master, healer, great weapon master and shield master. All of them are gold in the right situation or combo not really gold all by themselves. The reason I rate sharpshooter better than GWM is the +2 bonus to hit combat style and things like hunter rangers can deal great damage with it. Crossbow expert kind of needs sharpshooter to become great, sharpshooter is great all by itself even for builds with no archery style. Cyber Dave is also essentially correct with his evaluation of polearm master+ great weapon master combo. Polearm master is the better feat judged by itself and its great from level 1 vs just good for GWM. |
| #36TheBigHouseAug 26, 2015 12:20:00 |
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| (Reply to #26)bid |
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| #38Tempest_StormwindAug 26, 2015 15:32:17 |
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| #39melloredAug 26, 2015 16:36:05 |
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| (Reply to #39)bid |
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| #41Cyber-DaveAug 26, 2015 17:53:16 |
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| (Reply to #38)bid |
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| (Reply to #41)bid |
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| #44LeugrenAug 26, 2015 18:30:34 |
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| #45BRJNAug 26, 2015 19:02:54 | Actor is good for roleplaying, not so much for rollplaying.
But that was the most
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| #46melloredAug 27, 2015 7:58:12 | The only class that want's 2 scores is the rogue (Con/Dex) Everyone wants 3 or 4 (Con + Dex + attack + spells) And even rogues would like to have some extra Wis.
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| #47YunruAug 27, 2015 9:35:03 | Lucky's not a reroll, it's an extra die, and then you choose which die to pick. |
| #48Tempest_StormwindAug 27, 2015 16:24:50 |
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| #49eyriekingAug 28, 2015 0:37:59 | Hi everyone, I have finished the guide! Thanks for all your critiques and advice.
Tempest_Stormwind, I have updated the wording on lucky, because it wasn't clear. |
| #50ElfcrusherAug 28, 2015 5:11:33 | I was thinking about defensive duelist last night, and the critcism that it only blocks one attack, and that at higher levels you will face multi-attack creatures.
First of all, even blocking one of several attacks is undoubtedly a good thing.
Furthermore, the more attacks that hit the better chance you have of using this feat. Because it can be used reactively, after the attack roll, you hold it until an attack hits by just the right margin for your proficiency bonus to make the difference, and there's no guarantee that will be the case for any one hit. But the odds go up with more attacks.
There's no general (and simple*) rule for which is better for you, one big attack or many small attacks, but I don't think its utility decreases with multiple attacks as much as some folks think. If you could pick any one attack per round and avoid it then, sure, you'd rather face a single big attack per round. But that ain't how it works.
*Sure, you could write an inquality that had variables for damage (median and standard deviation), attack bonus, proficiency bonus, and your AC. But that wouldn't actually be very informative to most people. |
| #51melloredAug 28, 2015 6:49:37 | If defensive dualist blocks 1 attack per turn * 3 turns per combat * 6 encounters = 18 attacks per day. /2 since it only works on melee attacks in certain die ranges. So call it 9 attacks per day.
+2 Con gives you 40 HP, at most. 10 damage per attack (guessing here, anyone have data?), that's 90HP per day. Or, if you block 5+ attacks per day, you win.
Red dragons deal ~15 damage per attack, = 135 HP per day. So blocking 4+ attacks per day wins.
I did the math for defensive dualist somewhere.... here.
Assuming 4 melee attacks per turn, defensive dualist with this proficecny is worth... +2 = +1.7AC +3 = +2.4AC +4 = +3,0AC +5 = +3.4AC +6 = +3.8AC
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| #52eyriekingAug 28, 2015 13:21:10 | I'm not entirely clear on your math, but here is some of mine.
Lets assume you are a tier four character, with a +6 proficiency bonus (this is when the feat is most useful). Assuming you have an AC of 21 (plate armor, shield, +1 something) then an enemy with a +8 bonus to attack would hit you on a 14 or higher. Defensive duelist means that they would only hit you on a 19 or higher (20 auto hits). Any enemy with at least this attack bonus means you have a 6/20 chance of having an attack against you that will only be blocked by using your reaction. Chances of being able to block at least one attack per round =1- (.7 (chance on not getting a chance to use your reaction)^(number of attacks against you))
Example An adult red dragon has a attack modifier of +14. if the dragon rolls a 1-6, he misses you, without you using your reaction. if the dragon rolls a 7-12, he hits you unless you block it with your reaction. If the dragon rolls a 13-19, he hits you, unless you have some other effect in play (I am assuming you don't) if the dragon rolls a 20, you automatically are hit.
On average, the dragon does a little less than 20 damage per attack (26 with his bite, 15 with his claw, 17 with his tail). If you get the dragon to attack you three times: 13.14 damage on average mitigated per turn. 2 times: 10.2 damage mitigated per turn. 1 time: 6 damage mitigated per turn.
Assuming the dragon uses its fire breath every third turn, then best case senario is that you mitigate 8.76 damage per turn, on average. This assumes that the dragon only attacks the obviuous tank (dragons are smart, and most dms don't like attacking the tank) with every attack. Furthermore, this doesnt work against ranged spellcasters and ranged attacks.
Most high level creatures at this point have multiattack, but just for fun: If you fought some creature that did 60 damage on one attack, then you would mitigate 18 damage per turn on average if he hit you. If you fought some creature that did 30 damage on two attacks, then you would mitigate 15.3 damage per turn on average. If you fought some creature (or lots) that did 6 damage on 10 attacks, then you would mitigate 5.8 damage on average per turn.
This seems to indicate that I was correct in assuming that having a chance to block one big attack is better than a creature chance to block one weaker one. Obviously, average damage is fickle: If you fail the block the 60 damage attack 3 turns in a row, you are probably knocked out of the fight. |
| (Reply to #52)bid |
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| #54melloredAug 28, 2015 19:00:23 | mittigating 5.8 * 10 rounds = 58 HP per day. |
| #55bidAug 28, 2015 20:05:48 | Tough is also useful for sorcerer/wizard with their 1d6 HD. If they have Con14, the feat ups their health from 5.5 hp to 7.5 hp per level, a 36% increase.
It might even be blue for Favored Soul sorcerer.
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| #56StrillAug 29, 2015 0:36:41 | Why in the world is Shield Master rated high for Barbarians? They're one of the worst classes to take Shield Master because they already have Reckless attack and Wolf Totem, which already give you and your allies Advantage on attacks, and do it much more effectively. |
| #57Lord_KadarianAug 29, 2015 1:23:19 | Charger Classes: Barbarian, fighter, or any frontliner who likes charging ahead
At first glance, this feat seems very useful. +5 to damage rolls or a free shove are both decent, and it lets you move far and attack. However, most of the time you will only get to use this feat once per battle. How often are you charging in, then backing up and charging in again? You will probably provoke oppurtunity attacks if you do this, and you probably would rather stay in and protect the backline. It also uses your bonus action, which has serious competition from some other feats (polearm master, for one) That said, its a fun idea, and if you can figure out a way to use it effectively, go right ahead. I'd rather the strength or dexterity though.
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to be considered this feat may work nicely in conjunction with mobiltiy (or the swashbuckler equivalent ability) in this manner you can use the dash action to enter combat range attacking with a bonus action and then retreating out of combat now that your target cannot make any attacks of opportunity (probably good with rogues in this case as they don't really want to end the turn next to the big bad but would want to hit and hit hard) Still I would agree not the most valuable feat.
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| #58ZardnaarAug 29, 2015 3:27:59 |
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| #59StrillAug 29, 2015 3:37:51 |
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| (Reply to #59)Zardnaar |
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| #61YunruAug 29, 2015 6:02:52 | And you can always just grab them if they go immediately after you. |
| #62melloredAug 29, 2015 8:28:37 |
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| #63jaelisAug 29, 2015 8:38:09 | I thought Tavern Brawler was pretty good for grapplers because it lets you use your sheild as a weapon proficiently, along with the other benefits. |
| (Reply to #57)bid |
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| #65GladiusLegisAug 29, 2015 11:36:10 | Charger would be the most useful on a Paladin, IMO, since you can add Divine Smite on top of it for big damage against an enemy you couldn't have reached otherwise (i.e. caster in the back).
Still, even then, there's so many other feats I'd consider having a Paladin take before that one. |
| #66melloredAug 31, 2015 7:55:19 |
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| #67TyrusandRhaneAug 31, 2015 15:53:01 |
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| #68StrillAug 31, 2015 22:27:57 |
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| (Reply to #68)Yunru |
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| (Reply to #66)eyrieking |
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| #71melloredSep 01, 2015 12:24:33 |
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| (Reply to #69)eyrieking |
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| (Reply to #71)eyrieking |
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| #74melloredSep 01, 2015 12:41:38 |
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| #75Jared711Sep 01, 2015 16:30:47 | I like the guide, I would adjust a couple of the ratings.
This one is good for a lot of reasons. It works for all damage including a dragon’s breath, weapon attacks, etc. It’s twice as effective as raising Con. (saves a feat) and if you have a Con item, that sets your con at 19 it’s even better. This can be good to keep the weaker spell casters from getting snuffed from a dragon’s breath. Good for anyone really. Less good for polymorph or a shape changing druid. (Actually not sure if it would translate to new form, doubt it.)
Tough Classes: frontliners Sounds good, but you can just put two points into con and get half the hp benefit, while getting higher con saving throws (which are some of the most common in the game. I would not choose this unless I had already maxed by con score. Even then I would probably rather pick of resiliant in con, dex, or wis. Increase your hit points by an amount equal to twice your level. Wheever you gain a level, your hit point maximum increases by an additional 2 hit points |
| (Reply to #75)eyrieking |
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| #77Jared711Sep 01, 2015 22:31:05 |
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| (Reply to #77)eyrieking |
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| #79ElfcrusherSep 02, 2015 13:19:59 | If you're planning to use ABI's to increase Con I'd recommend starting with an odd number for Con and then taking Resilience(CON) rather than either Tough or +2 CON. A starting score of 13 or below will save you points that can go to other stats, and then for that one Feat you'll get both more hit points and vastly improved saves.
Of course if you already have proficiency in Con saves ignore the above. |
| #80ImOvarwaSep 04, 2015 3:03:52 | Hi,
Thanks for the guide. Two comments:
1) The title of the guide is "Who needs ability scores: A guide to feats," but the guide only does half of what the title says. It does not actually tell us why we don't need ability scores, or why feats are better than ability score increases, or even *when* feats are better than ability scores.
All of these, any of these, are worth discussing. I admit disappointment that I didn't see this happen.
My initial stab at it: Unless you are a Moon Druid, you have one stat that needs to reach 20 ASAP, possibly a secondary stat that ought also go to 20, and maybe even a third or fourth such stat. Any feat must compete with those stat increases and justify their existence.
Barbarian: You would love to boost Str, Dex and Con to 20, excluding the level 20 capstone. You can't, even if you take no feats. Do you really have room for Sentinel and GWF and PM?
Lore Bard: You only really need Cha, which leaves you choices. More Con is always nice, and Resilient Con probably comes first. Medium armor proficiency is likely better for you than just boosting Dex. One more feat?
Valor Bard: Ugh. Cha to 20. If you don't have a good attack stat with your weapon, why are you here? So advance either Dex or Str... or live with a 16 until level 10 when you take Shillelagh and use Cha. Staves are not as good for you as for other arcane casters though. You also want resilient Con and maybe Warcaster...
Cleric: I don't really like the class in 5e; even after reading the guides I find that their "gold" options are mostly meh. I kind of shrug: These clerics are very retro, in the sense of bringing back that good old AD&D "I don't want to play the cleric." Fortunately, a party doesn't need one these days. So Wisdom to 20, sure. After that? I see no feats that make me see the class differently; there's a kind of freedom in that, I guess, to do whatever seems fun.
Land Druid: Meh.
Moon Druid: Choices, choices, choices. Choices. Do you even bother to boost stats? I think getting Wis 20 is worthwhile, maybe even worthwhile earlier than level 18, because with only 2 changes per short rest (1 change if you go Elemental), you might very well find yourself alternating between encounters solved with wildshape and encounters solved with spellcasting, when your wildshape goes away. Of course, you don't have to. That leaves 3-5 feats, and the best ones should be useful in animal form. I think the druid guides discuss this, so...
Fighter: 7 feats! But the best part is that the first extra feat comes at level 6. If you take feats early, you nail down what your character does early. But if you boost your attack stat, you do what you do better and add capabilities. I admit prejudice toward the latter. The fighter guides talk about what to take, given what you want to accomplish. One thought: Some 'mediocre' feats are only mediocre for other classes. A fighter often has the luxury to take feats (and their corresponding abilities) that are just fun to have. Who other than a fighter can reasonably take Skilled? Still, the real issue is to demonstrate that taking something like Polearm Master or Sharpshooter is really better than first boosting an attack stat. Of course, by level 8 you can already have Dex 20 and Sharpshooter, which is more important than having 7 feats at level 19.
etc.
Monk: Dex, then Wis. So... one feat at level 19? Almost not worth thinking about.
Paladin: Your best feature (imo) comes at level 6, so you want a high Cha. But you also absolutely need a high attack stat. That leaves one feat, unless you skimp on something that I'd not want to skimp on. There's a kind of incompleteness, because all ASIs are so needed even at level 20. Where to compromise? Polearm Master is a great One Feat.... but what if you are hoping (against hope) for a Holy Avenger?
Pure spellcasters tend only to absolutely need their casting stat. Gishes and other hybrid casters need an attack stat, and probably a casting stat too. EK are the most likely not to need a casting stat, next Rangers and AT. Tome Warlock 3 with Shillelagh is a great way to reduce MAD for Paladins, Sorcerers and even Valor Bards (but ugh.) Hybrid casters are also more likely to need Warcaster, except for archers.
Clever multiclass builds can do cool things with feats... but unless I really miss something, an attack/casting stat of 20 seems a priority. The question of whether a feat is good or bad seems less important than whether a feat is worth preempting or even replacing a stat boost.
2) One particular feat that I see differently from the general consensus (assuming the lack of comment to signify agreement):
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| #81melloredSep 04, 2015 5:03:18 |
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| #82ImOvarwaSep 04, 2015 14:35:29 |
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| #83Kithas48Sep 04, 2015 19:38:54 | I know im late to the discussion but defensive duelist works really well with the Ranger's Multiattack Defense option, never letting the enemy have an opening. if youre getting x+1v1ed youll still have some trouble but 1v1 itll be really hard to hit you. |
| #84melloredSep 06, 2015 23:55:58 | sure cutting words makes it easier to use, but it doesn't give you more insperation dice. valor (effectivly) get a free feat. which can be +2 cha (more insperation dice for valor), resilence, warcaster, inspiring leader, lucky, or darkvision + other stuff by nor being human. more then enough to choose from. |
| #85ImOvarwaSep 08, 2015 0:36:02 | Hi,
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| (Reply to #80)Jared711 |
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| #87MarauderNETSep 23, 2015 10:53:54 |
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| (Reply to #87)eyrieking |
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| #89YunruSep 27, 2015 0:55:08 | The Bard, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster and Ranger all can though. Possibly the Paladin too. |
| #90MarauderNETSep 28, 2015 7:58:15 |
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