I've done some number crunching and I still can't figure out why I'd play a bladelock over the other two alternatives, UNLESS YOU ARE MULTICLASSING, because it seems to me that Eldritch Blast is sufficient for all your damage needs.
Unless I'm doing something wrong, the max damage potential of Eldritch Blast with 20 Charisma and Agonizing Blast is still more damage than the Pact Blade with 20 Charisma, Thirsting Blade, lifedrinker, a +3 weapon, and a 20 in Dex or Str. And with the same invocation investment as Bladelocking, you can add repelling blast to your attack. A STR based bladelock does a LITTLE more damage than EB before level 10, but they're also going MAD at that point, especially because Warlocks only get light armor and they need to spend their abis on raising Str later on.
I'm assuming the same attack bonus for Eldritch Blast and Pact Blade since a +3 rod will bring EB to the same max potential attack bonus.
Are there creatures that resist Force damage or some other circumstances when Laser Raving isn't optimal (besides face to face melee - which is mitigated somewhat by repelling blast anyway)?
Is bladelocking just for Multiclass builds?
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Did you add polearm master?
mellored wrote:
Well, feats are every bit as optional as multiclassing. I think the spirit of this question is "Does the bladelock stand up on its own without employing variants?"
I'd argue no, sadly.
I got my first impressions of this when I was trying to recreate my 3.5 hexblade in 5e. A signature part of his play style involves weapon use, so I tried bladelock first... and found that I would have to deliberately not take Eldritch Blast if I wanted melee to be his big thing. Eldritch Blast on its own (without Agonizing Blast!) remained competitive with the Thirsting Blade bladelock. (In the end I settled on a slight modification to the Eldritch Knight, casting from Charisma and using the Warlock list; since there's no invocations and the slots are both lower-level and non-recharging, I didn't bother with a school limitation.)
For me, the final straw came from building a Tomelock with a friend and realizing that I can use the tome to pick up Shilleglagh and link it to your Charisma. Sure, I can only use a staff as my weapon here, but the staff is already an arcane focus (so there's no fiddling about with components, nor arguments about the action type needed to switch from a two-handed grip to a one-handed one to free up a hand for them), and the resulting weapon is pretty good. If you lose the staff somehow (a situation where the bladelock's summonable weapon is an advantage), just about anything wooden can serve as a club, which is still a viable target. The only drawback is that without multiclassing, you only get one attack off with this, but 1) you still have Eldritch Blast, and 2) if multiclassing's an option, you can get Extra Attack and are in the same boat as the bladelock.
Eh, I wouldn't go that far. Rituals/Cantrips are nice and so is weird familiar, but I think the Blade Lock is basically begging to multiclass into another class(es) for one level or two. And then most of the issues(AC) get fixed. If I were going to do a house rule for them, I'd give them Medium Armor as a proficiency as part of the Extra Attack invocation so they can invest in Str/Cha instead of Dex/Cha if they want.
Cascade.rpga wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Ath-kethin wrote:
My bladelock works well. Normal human, took Moderately Armored at 4th level, got 14, 14, 14, 12, 10, 16 as ability scores and the criminal backrgound, the otherwordly patron is the archfey. The main-the of the character is resourcefulness and versitality and it works out great. Even though the damage is not scy-croaching, I can tank some rounds (due medium armor and shield), I have control spells, are a better scout than most rogues and most importantly: I can do about everything second best.
I even use my pact weapon for social situations, leading people to think I'm a martial type, to cast my spells into their face, when I can do it. I do have eldritch blast, but I rarely use it. A good weapon and two attacks seems to be more reliable often enough and even though I need to do a better object interaction economy (since I still lack warcaster), the build is great, great fun and it's effective.
Kentus wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Kentus wrote:
It's not that I'm offended or something like that, I respect your opinion. But I think, that I never will get it entirely. Maybe because I'm playing and especially DMing too long to give much of white room assumptions.
I can only argue with my bladelock without being arrogant, since they're real life experiences, which I decided to share.
And I see overdependance on something in this game as a fatal flaw. If everything your character is worth can be negated by one to two actions, you failed imo. The warlock's class greatest strength is the flexibility of creating your warlock, since you have kinda two subclasses. The pact of the blade brings you another independent resource of 'power' you bring into the game, since it doesn't need magic. This is a great boon, being able to be effective without using magic at all. Remember Antimagic Field, Spell Immunity or simply trying to pass through some encounters without saying 'I'm a spellcaster!!!'
The same for most polearm fighters. It can only take one round to make the build weak: Disarm, pick up the polearm as an object interaction. Might be difficult at times, but my warlock pulled disarming enemies off (using hex as helper), while another picked the weapons up.
Of course there are classes, which have more relience on specific means than others (like the wizard), but in the end, the fact that you have different options with different sources is always a good thing. And neither math nor any white room assumptions can calculate it correctly. If you play in Athas (Dark Sun), being able to use a weapon decently might be the only thing, that keep you alive, since the crowd might kill you as a defiler the moment, you cast your first spell. If you get into a weaveless area, it sucks to be magic-dependent. And even the best build will surrender vs. sucking at rolling d20s. There are simply players who rolls natural 4s at average.
If you're someone like me, who don't like to be overly dependent, you begin to see the pact of the blade a good measure to widen your arsenal with different measures. And the whole feature is about not being to restricted, you can summon your weapon from afar or change it, if you're using magic weapons. You even change your proficiency.
Do the math grinding, if you like, but some people don't particularly care about the pure damage output. This is why I don't think, that the sunblade really matters imo. I couldn't know I get it and if you're unable to be creative with your features, then you don't need to understand my point of view. Especially since I used the summoning ability and the fact that I'm good at wielding my sword before the sunblade several times. If you see only the combat potential of that pact, I suggest reading more fantasy novels.
Good points from everyone. Indeed polearm mastery does push the bladelock ahead on DPR, with or without the opportunity attack (assuming Hex.)
I'm still not convinced it's worth all the effort since all it takes for Eldritch Blast to be one of the best DPR options is level 2 and an invocation.
But Kentus does have a point that in one instance the laser rave Warlock is screwed, and that's in an anti-magic field. I'm not sure how common that would be though (and Sorcs and Wizards are just as screwed.)
But I can see the build working out in the long run if you're human and have feats. It'd be nice if the damage was at least equal to Eldritch Blast with no other investment though. The other two options just seem so much better overall.
Kentus wrote:
Tempest, seriously: I can't get you. You seem to pick fights nobody asks for, even though I make it clearly that I don't give much about it. How can you use all this time typing these under these circumstances without bringing anything new to the topic for someone like me, who don't even care much at this point and only read it, because you took the time to type it all. And then I read some not very appropriate comments here and there, which I will oversee, since you seems to be at least earnest.
Try to agree to disagree and take my words as someone, who actually played a bladelock: It's fun, and you could never disarm this argument and never will. Game designers did their job, this option is fun. If you need to prove that the bladelock is inferior to the other options in this regard, too (or any other), feel free to open another topic, since this one is actually caring about the things, you can do with a bladelock.
And for the myth: The myth is true. I don't have accurate numbers on me, but he was using all of our d20s over several years and about 3/4th of the dice are 1-6 and the rest natural 20s, we counted several sessions. If you know statistics, you should also know, that any course of results have the same probability (so a 20, 11, 14 is as probable as a 1, 1, 1). This one is just unlucky with his d20s (in 5e he's playing halfling and uses the reroll feature often), while he is a monster with his d6s. Probability can show up in these things, too.
I'll agree to drop it. We're talking about different things - I'm pointing out the designers didn't do a good job making one option distinct (especially given how another option can decide to do the same thing and come out very similar, and how the option in question isn't all that far ahead from its own blast anyway), and you're saying you're having fun with your particular bladelock. I never said you couldn't have fun. We're talking past each other. I just hope the points I made regarding design answer someone else's questions.
Kentus wrote:
A couple of things I'd also like to comment on.
Golems
I read the Monster Manual (because I'm a DM as well as a player) and I don't think I ran into anything that was straight up immune to magic (it might be there, I may have missed it, I just don't recall anything.)
Golems are my first go-to when it comes to things that are traditionally immune to magic, and here's something interesting about Golems....
None of them are immune to magic.
Just about all of them have magic resistance but that explicitely affects saving throws - not their armor class against to-hit spells. This means Scorching Ray, Ray of Frost, and yes, Eldritch Blast will be completely unaffected by it. A lot of them have elemental immunities but I don't think any of them have Force damage immunity.
If there are any other creatures that have straight up immunity to all things magical, please let me know (I'd like to send one after my players sometime to see how they react.)
On a side note, Golems are also not immune to all save or lose spells, just specific conditions. This suggests that unless your DM is a traditionalist that rules otherwise, spells like Confusion that don't have a condition typing would affect a golem (If they fail their save in spite of their advantage from Magic Resistance.)
Anti-Magic Field
The best classes in an anti-magic field are Fighters and Barbarians. Rogues also shine in Anti-Magic fields. Everyone else is going to be gimped in some way. Bladelocks - less gimped, but that sunblade is a long sword in the field (and arguably lifedrinker takes its hit too.) But here's how you deal with an Anti-Magic field: Sick the BSF on the caster causing it, and pray you deal enough damage to make them fail their concentration check. Once that's fizzled, everyone else goes back to their hunky-dory Eldtritch Blast spamming ways.
I think it's a nice check against casters - forcing them to keep that BSF around as more than just a meat shield. Not much reason to try and do everything when you have a party of friends you can work with.
How I would "Fix" the Bladelock
As a DM, I would do exactly what happened to Kentus - I'd throw a powerful magic item at the Bladelock that makes him feel powerful and reinforces his decision.
But if I were to take a step back and redesign the class as if I were one of the designers, I'd probably approach it somehting like this:
1. Rework Lifedrinker - The obvious reason that LIfedrinker requires level 12 is because it'd be too good for multiclassing if it came any earlier (Dem Paladins be covetous.) But, it's a core part of the build's damage, so I'd remove the invocation and have it be an innate feature of the Pact Blade - except it would gradually scale upwards for how much of your Charisma Modifier it takes, similar to how Medium Armor interacts with Dex. This would provide a benefit earlier on, helping the competition agianst Eldritch Blast, but it'd keep the class dippers from getting the full benefit right out of the box.
2. Make Thirsting Blade part of the sword as well - Take away the invocation.You just get an extra attack starting at level 5 (with your blade.)
With those two points alone you've removed the entire expense needed just to make the build viable compared to Eldritch Blast by the numbers. The difference in scale is still in the favor of Eldritch Blast (without feats), but at least you're dumping more resources into the Pact Blade at this point.
Then, I'd add two or three invocations with the prerequisite of Pact of the Blade that add differences in kind rather than just numeric increases. Here are a few ideas (not bothering with level prereqs, though most of these should have them):
Vortex Blade - As an action, pulls enemies nearby (20' radius) toward the warlock by 10'. The warlock may make an attack against each critter within his reach upon doing this. Replenishes on a short rest. (Movement control ability that adds AOE.)
Diseased Blade - Apply a contagion upon hit with your pact weapon as the spell. Replenishes on short rest. (Not the best spell in the game, but fits the flavor of the pact I think.)
Slice the Void - Cut through the void with your pact weapon - upon hitting a target you may force them to make a Charisma saving throw or be banished as the spell banishment. If the target is a fiend or celestial, they must be below 25 hp for this to trigger. Other creatures return at the end of the Warlock's next turn. This can be performed once per creature per day.
Cut Space and Time - Teleport your target to any location within 30' upon a successful hit if they fail a charisma saving throw. Once per target per day.
Shadow Snatch - Jab your pact blade into your target's shadow. If they fail a dexterity save, the target is restrained for up to one minute or until you pull the blade out of the shadow (by summoning it into your hands or by picking it up yourself.) Does not use concentration, but you can't use your Pact Blade while the target is restrained. No limit to how often you can do this.
Smash the Earth- Targets within a 15' cone take your pact weapon damage, and the ground becomes difficult terrain until cleared.
Self Recall - Instead of teleporting the pact weapon to you, you may teleport yourself to the pact weapon. (Probably should be limited, but if you consider that it'd take an action to toss your blade someplace, I think this would be more of an out of combat utility rather than an in combat movement technique.)
Vorpal Blade - On a critical hit if you deal more than 25% of the target's current HP, you cut their head off.
Do I think any of these changes would make Tome or Chain seem like garbage in comparison? I don't think so.Both Tome and Chain have a lot of out of combat application while even now Pact of the Blade is purely a combat choice. None of my above ideas for the blade would change that (Except maybe the Self Recall ability.)
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Kentus wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
Making Lifedrinker and the extra attack baseline would fix it.
i would just add a few smite spells to the warlock list.
branding smite for a fiend would be perfect.
Weapons take more investment than spells, in general, and that carries over to the class. Bladepact doesn't underperform damage with feats and investment. Without feats it's a poor option but considering the class and subclass are also both optional as well that should be a consideration if feats are restricted or not allowed. I would add a bladepact invocation based on defense instead of offense. The weapon is a melee weapon but there is no decent defensive option in the subclass to account for that requirement.
Ashrym wrote:
KaptainKrunch wrote:
mellored wrote:
Cascade.rpga wrote:
mellored wrote:
Well it's pretty DM dependant.
I wouldn't have my monster's charge a polearm warlock. They would simply throw stuff, or chase someone else.
Or perhaps grapple, so he couldn't escape.
But your DM is obviously running differntly.
mellored wrote:
TenaciousJ wrote:
You added the guy with robes to the scenario! What if the group is a guy with a glowing weapon in studded leather; another guy wearing a breastplate with a shield and a glowing weapon; and another 2 with plate, a shield, and a glowing weapon?
Because I think a blade warlock, a valor bard, a cleric, and a fighter would be a decent enough party.
It has more to do with seeing a guy with a polearm of some sort and seeing "he's ready for a charge". That's one of the major reasons front line infantry carried spears for ages - not only are they cheap and easy to learn how to use (comparatively), when held in formation they protect the rank using them as well as all ranks behind them (usually armed with ranged weapons - we were using this formation well after the invention of guns. In fact, one of the biggest revolutions in formation combat was the invention of the bayonet, so that everyone could be armed with a gun that could also serve as a spear.)
It's the equivalent of looking at a guy with a bow and assuming he wants to fight at a distance, or judging that a guy without a shield is easier to hit than a guy with one. It's got nothing to do with which class they are - that's a metagame construct and not directly inferrable by vision. It does have everything to do with their weapons speaking volumes about what kind of foes they prefer to fight.
In that last party, I'd charge the guy with the studded leather (weakest armor), unless he's got a polearm, then I'd charge the guy with the breastplate (next weakest armor, doesn't use an anti-charge weapon).
Also, your example party (bladelock, valor bard, cleric, and fighter) shows why you can't look for robes and play Spot The Spellcaster. If the fighter went Eldritch Knight, all four of them are spellcasters (and you couldn't tell if the fighter did that or not visually, since an Eldritch Knight looks just like a Champion). Thus, it shouldn't be surprising in-world when a guy in armor throws a spell, and you can't simply hold a weapon and assume people will think you can't cast spells.
Honestly I like the bladelock, not a full 20 neccessarily but it is rather nice. One of my builds;
1 Fighter 5 Rogue 14 'Lock
Using fighter for two weapon fighting and proficiencies(start here for con save proficiency) using two rapiers for weapons, dual wielder, and armor of shadows instead of armor you have an ac of around 17(good for a DD) and your damage output is rather high.
Hex is really the big deal from bladelock in melee one full round of combat with including sneak attack looks;
1d8+4d6+CHA+DEX
1d8+1d6+CHA+DEX
1d8+1d6+DEX
~59.5 damage(+3/+3)
alternatively a 19 'Lock/1 Fighter
1d8+1d6+CHA+DEX
1d8+1d6+CHA+DEX
1d8+1d6+DEX
~49 damage(+3/+3)
also 20'Lock
1d8+1d6+CHA+DEX
1d8+1d6+CHA+DEX
1d8+1d6
~46 damage
Same 2 characters with EB's
4d10+CHA
~34 damage
Hitting 3 times is more likely than hitting all 4 times, and you don't have that pesky disadvantage to hit in melee if they manage to get close to you.
yes it takes more investment in the form of feats (war caster and dual wielder) but it does do more damage, albeit at a shorter range. And with misty step/blink you shouldnt have trouble catching your enemies
I prefer the dex build as it means you dont even need another class to get good armor and can go straight 'lock/rogue if you want to
Kithas48 wrote:
I don't really see how it's stealing the paladins thunder. But, you can always make up a "fiendish strike" spell, realease it as an additional warlock option, and done.
Actually, i'd prefer bladelock get something other then damage.... 
Vamperic Blade:
Bonus action, concentrain upto 1 minute.
The next time you hit with a melee attack, regain 1/2 the damage delt in hit points.
Maddness Blade:
Bonus action, concentrain upto 1 minute.
The next time you hit with a melee attack, the target makes a Wisdom saving throw. If it fails, It uses it's reaction to attack a random creature in range other then yourself.
ect...
The smite idea is basically the battlemaster. Some extra damage and they are afraid of you, or they have disadvantage to attack not you, etc. It's just replacing short rest "superiority dice" with short rest max level spell slots. If the activates on every hit might be a mechanical step too far. I honestly want the warlock to be able to take at least 1 invocation that is utility. That's why I'd be in favor of rolling thirsting blade into the pact of the blade feature as a start. To be balanced, whatever is offered should not bring the bladelock ahead of the DPR of a battlemaster when resources are piled on, warlocks have other benefits that offset DPR loss, but rather should reduce the resource cost investment to bring it in line with EB spam. The easiest way to do that while making it exclusive is to add more to the pact of the blade that applies at later levels rather than offering new resource tax options.
If you are playing RAW though as per OPs question, Bladelock is mechanically inferior DPR without a significant resource tax and I can't offer a compelling reason to play a bladelock over an EB spammer other than your unwavering desire to play a melee character.