Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 imaginari Feb 01, 2015 13:03:27	I wanted to discuss armored wizards a bit, especially now that 5e wizards can cast in armor.  It occurred to me, especially with the whole bounded accuracy concept, that AC is actually incrediably important or influencial.  Am I wrong here?     With that said, I wanted to talk about some of the trade-offs and benefits for making an heavily armored wizard.  And I'm assuming heavy armor instead of medium because unless you want to sneak, which I don't imagine a wizard would be too good at anyway, heavy armor seems superior.     My first thought is to take a level in cleric or fighter to get proficency in heavy armor and shield, plus a few gravy options.  Obviously the trade-off here is a slightly slower spell progression when compared to a dedicated wizard.  But you'd gain the ability to wear heavy armor and don't have to use up spell slots on similar defensive magic.  And a level of fighter would also grant another +1 AC.   Strength however becomes a problems, as not many races give str and int.  But in heavy armor, dex is no longer a necessary stat really.  So let's say you play a human.  On top of that, as the human variant's first level feat, what if you took Heavy Armor Master.  This grants an extra +1 str and 3 DR vs non-magical attacks.    So how then would, a Human Fighter 1/Wizard 1 stack up against a Gnome Wizard 2?  And how would they stack up at hire levels?   Theoretically, in plate armor with a shield and fighter defensive training, you could get an AC of 21.  Add in Heavy Armor Master, and you get DR 3 vs most physical attacks.  This goes a long way towards survivability, and greatly mitigates one of the wizards biggest weaknesses, being soft and squshy.     A gnome dedicated wizard will have a better Int hands down, but I would imagine most of the other stats would still be comparable.  Gnomes or other races would also have a few cool features.  And spell progression would be 1 lvl better.  AC would be a lot less, assuming mage armor and dex, and an extra spell slot would have to be dedicated to it.     Am I missing any glaring pros or cons?  What would you rather have, the survivability or the raw spell power?     My personal hunch is that the advantages of an armored mage start to dwindle at higher levels.  But at low levels, such a concept as a heavily armored mage could be pretty potent.  What do you think?   Thanks,   imaginari.
#2 imaginari Feb 01, 2015 13:06:08	P.S.  Is there a better way to increase AC or survivability?
#3 Nevvur Feb 01, 2015 13:28:25	Get more HPs? The Toughness feat helps there. Resilience will help with a saving throw of your choice, and Resilience (Con) might bump your ability score to grant additional HPs. Shield Master will help with dex saves, if you're planning to wield a shield.    The role of a wizard is usually to stay in the back and fling spells. He doesn't wear armor because he's either not being attacked, or using kill/control spells to halt attackers before they reach him. Ideally. He will probably suffer attacks from enemy artillery roles, so a decent AC is still desirable (though one could say that for any class). The biggest problem I see with a heavy armor wizard is strength dependency. If you want to move around without penalty, you'll need a 15 or higher, and you probably won't be using that ability score for much else.
#4 slumgum Feb 01, 2015 13:54:23	Wizards have a TON of good concentration spells and any hit forces you to make a concentration check.  Meaning AC is your second line of defense (First line being staying out of situations where enemies even get a chance to attack you).  It seems like a waste to focus on AC since ideally you'll never make use of it.  Just my two cents.
#5 ppaladin123 Feb 01, 2015 14:26:15	You could go lore cleric 1/wizard 1....pick up some wizardly skills and access to a few useful spells like bless.
#6 mellored Feb 01, 2015 14:34:19	ppaladin123 wrote:
(Reply to #5) imaginari	ppaladin123 wrote:
#8 mellored Feb 01, 2015 14:36:44	imaginari wrote:
(Reply to #4) imaginari	slumgum wrote:
#10 Illithidbix Feb 01, 2015 14:47:06	It does sound pretty cool that it appears to be a viable option.   But I think the 1 level delay in higher level spells, spellslots, class features and esp. Ability Score Improvements will be noticable.   But if you're happy to be "less mage, more tough" then it probably works.
#11 RCanine Feb 01, 2015 17:41:45	Medium armor, I think, is a fine option. For max AC in medium armor, you need 14 dex; for max AC in heavy armor, you need 15 str. For comparable AC with Mage Armor, you need 18 dex. Also, wizards don't need a ton in the way of feats, either.     Dex is better than strength, since it also gives you initiative and a more important saving throw, so you're probably better off with dex anyway--not to mention there's a race with perfect wizard synergy in the Eladrin.   Losing out on a wizard level is a big deal at low levels, but not terribly painful at high levels, so the choice has a lot to do with how long you think you'll play the character. So if you want to optimize your wizard for AC, I'd probably recommend:   A 16 dex eladrin/gnome/half-elf that casts Mage Armor on himself all the time. Once you're happy with your int, boost dex rather than taking a feat. A 14 str mountain dwarf that takes the heavily armored feat
#12 Yunru Feb 01, 2015 17:53:53	Why Heavy Armor? Start Sorcerer and you get Con saves AND 13+Dex armor permanently, plus a shield if you somehow get proficiency.
#13 Aribeth Feb 01, 2015 18:19:49	If this is for AL...   Play Lost Mines of Phandelver...   Pick up the following:   Gauntlet of Ogre Power Ring of Protection Staff of Defense   Rebuild... my preference would be to go Fighter 1 then Wizard... maybe Fighter 2 for Action Surge   Then dont look back   Once you pick up plate.. you will have 22 AC with shield... and reaction AC of 27 with the shield spell   And have Constitution Save proficiency   That should take care of your defensive needs   If this is not for AL... go the Dexterity route and medium armor and take the medium armor master feat and start with a class that has con save prof
#14 Psikerlord Feb 01, 2015 18:25:17	Fighter/Warcleric 1 then wizard xxxx cheese is one of the reasons I dont allow multiclassing.... it's just (in my view) undesirable min maxing.
(Reply to #9) Undrhil	imaginari wrote:
(Reply to #14) EzechielDantan	Psikerlord wrote:
#17 mellored Feb 02, 2015 6:58:02	Psikerlord wrote:
#18 QwertyAzerty Feb 02, 2015 6:16:25	If you play a solo adventure, then yes armored wizard hands down no question about it.   But in "normal" DnD game, you are part of a team. Being part of that team, hopefully there SHOULD be some player playing the role of "tank", front line fighter. Those front line fighter should take most of the melee attacks, leaving you safely behind. (I know when I play my sorcerer I often take 0 damage while the fighter in the front line require a full time cleric to keep him alive since he take all the attacks (between sentinel which prevent the monster from running away from him and encourage the monster to attack him rather then the squishy rogue.   The main danger for the spellcaster is the archers, the rogue and the other spellcaster.   To beat archer: spell like minor illusion, the archer 60 feet away cannot investigate your "wall" so he will believe that you have 3/4 cover, when in reality you are simply 3/4 concealed (full cover/concealment if you are a 4 feet tall gnome hiding beind a 5feet tall wall instead of a 6 feet tall human) so he'll probably try to attack the fighter so the melee ennemy can go around your wall.   To beat rogue: for melee rogues keep mobile, misty step if he want to sneak he need to close in to you bonus action to hide, need to keep his action to attack so he can only move 30ft, stay 30 feet away from hidding spot where you expect them to hide and your safe... if the rogue is a range then consider him as an archer.   Spell caster: for range attack spell see archer, for the save spells, being a gnome give you advantage on all Wis, Intellect and Charisma save spell, having a good dexterity (something you shouldn't have in heavy armor) will give you your best chance to take half damage from dex save spell, and a decent constitution will protect you against many poison. Remember even if you had a heavy armor, that armor most likely doesn't offer protection against spells.   Yes a low level you need your spell slot level 1 to cast spell like magic missile, but at higher level your spell level 1 are good only for utility (Mage armor, Shield etc...) (magic missile lvl 1 does 3d4+3 so average of 10 damage) while firebolt (cantrip) at level 5 will do 2d10 (11 damage) so why cast magic missile instead of firebolt once you reach level 5 specially if being a gnome you could hide being your minor illusion wall and gain advantage being UNSEEN by the ennemy. Firebolt have a chance to crit (yes also a chance to miss, but with advantage the miss chance are low) magic missile cannot crit. So you'l very rarely use your spell slot level 1 for magic missile, so might as well use them for mage armor and shield, and cast magic missile as a spell lvl 2 instead.   So with mage armor and 14 dex that give you 15 AC, with shield (as a reactions pell) you get 20 AC compare to your 21AC when dipping fighter. Between misty step to stay away from the melee (or even reaching hard to reach perching position) that by-pass the front line, illusion wall to discourage the archer from targeting you, I don't see the reason to spend dip in fighter or cleric just for the armor (if you want access to some cleric spell also (guidance cantrip, cure wound,etc...) or if you want action surge to cast 2 fireball, then fighter and cleric become more appealing. Then multiclassing into fighter and cleric will slow down your wizard progression, so if your an evocor, you'll gain your +Intllect modifier on Scorching ray later, you'll gain acces to fireball at level 6 instead of 5 as an abjuror, your shield will have 2 less HP then if you had want full wizard etc...
#19 IxidorRS Feb 02, 2015 7:05:25	Undrhil wrote:
#20 Ashur420 Feb 02, 2015 10:19:20	mellored wrote:
#21 Nevvur Feb 02, 2015 10:29:39	On a side note, metagaming wise... If the party must take damage, it's not necessarily best for the tank to take all of it. He'll run out of HDs on short rests before anyone else, and possibly require spell slot healing for the party to move forward. Seeing a few lightly armored or unarmored opponents gives the monsters an incentive to spread their love around. Say your party is 4th level and just put down some hobgoblins, would you rather wrap up your short rest with everyone down 1 HD, or the fighter down 4 HD and everyone else at full?   I hope this isn't misconstrued as suggesting non-tanks should seek a lower AC, just that its an OK trade off for whatever other features (high damage, control spells, etC) they bring to the fight.
#22 mellored Feb 02, 2015 10:53:09	Nevvur wrote:
(Reply to #17) imaginari	mellored wrote:
#24 PhillPowell Feb 05, 2015 1:32:47	Forgive what is a newbie question but, if you are profficient in armour and shield does that mean you can cast spells with the shield in your hand (and a weapon/staff in the other)?     Or would you need the warcaster feat?
#25 mellored Feb 05, 2015 6:12:36	PhillPowell wrote:
(Reply to #25) Timborama	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #24) RPGBG	PhillPowell wrote:
#28 Jamwes Feb 05, 2015 11:49:22	RPGBG wrote:
#29 awaken_D_M_golem Feb 05, 2015 15:24:11	Psikerlord wrote:
#30 strider13x Feb 06, 2015 5:15:22	mellored wrote:
#31 mellored Feb 06, 2015 5:59:22	strider13x wrote:
#32 miburo99 Feb 06, 2015 8:39:22	To a certain extent. If I were a DM, my player would have some serious 'splainin to do as to why their budding cleric PC suddenly decided to become a wizard. I wouldn't disallow it, but I would want some valid RP reasons. That's up to each individual DM, though.
#33 Jamwes Feb 06, 2015 11:37:30	Is the reason "because the granularity of the system doesn't allow me to make a wizard who can wear heavy armor and cast a couple healing spells so at first level I appear to be a budding cleric when I'm actually a budding wizard" not good enough? It is one of the problems with the reality of a level based system.   A lot of these "role play" concerns seem to be easily cleared up by starting above first level. The developers have said that third is the new first. If you have experienced players and don't want the budding wizard to appear to be a budding cleric at first level, then don't start at first level. That way the backstory can be that the character learned it all at the same time or whatever you need to justify it within your own head.
#34 mellored Feb 06, 2015 13:00:08	Or simply a devout wizard. Or a cleric who get's arcane blessings.
#35 strider13x Feb 06, 2015 19:03:16	mellored wrote:
#36 KirkP Mar 20, 2015 23:30:34	A Mountain Dwarf skilled in metalsmith?
#37 Undrhil Mar 21, 2015 0:24:36	I just read through this thread again and I want to point out that Multiclassing Fighter does not give you heavy armor proficiency.   That is all.   I now return you to your regularly scheduled browsing and/or trolling.  ;)
#38 Matau99 Mar 21, 2015 6:37:38	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #38) grendel111111	Matau99 wrote:
#40 Matau99 Mar 21, 2015 7:58:21	grendel111111 wrote:
#41 Kalani Mar 21, 2015 9:20:22	Matau99 wrote:
#42 Matau99 Mar 21, 2015 11:53:28	Kalani wrote:
#43 Kalani Mar 21, 2015 12:58:44	You are correct in that you still need to buy the spellbook, but you add the starting "free" spells as normal for becoming a 1st level wizard.
#44 Matau99 Mar 21, 2015 14:27:24	Ah, that clears it up. Thank you!
#45 Sorsohka Mar 21, 2015 17:47:26	imaginari wrote:
#46 ScuroNotte Mar 21, 2015 17:57:25	Or the DM can allow you to have Light armor. And if you want better armor, you take a feat.  I don't understand why wearing light armor is considered taboo for a spellcaster. Allowing it shouldn't break the game
#47 cowleymen Mar 21, 2015 20:50:24	ScuroNotte wrote:
(Reply to #47) ScuroNotte	cowleymen wrote:
#49 kave99 Mar 22, 2015 18:39:01	I've been playing around with a Half Orc  multyclass level 1 thief/ the rest evoker wizard (currently 4th) with the guard background from EN World. Hardly a optimum build, zero min/max but flavorfull, fun and different.