Thy Fearful Symmetry: A Circle of the Moon Handbook
This guide is also available on Google Docs.
The Circle of the Moon Druid is a fascinating class, because its mechanics come directly from monsters in DM resources, rather than an allotment of interesting class features. You combine the utility of a caster with the brute force of a melee fighter, although you generally can’t do both at the same time. For those interested in the class, this guide gives you some pointers on making smart choices.
Contents:
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Introduction
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Class Features
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Ability Scores
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Races
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Forms
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Spells
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Feats
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Multiclassing
1. Introduction
This guide will use the following ratings:
Red is outclassed. Another option exists that is in all ways at least as good or better. Red choices aren’t necessarily valueless, however, and are fine to take if you really like them.
Purple is a substandard choice. It might be useful in corner-case situations, but overall it's not worth the investment.
Black is average. You're not hurting your character by taking this, and it might even help in some situations, but there are better choices.
Blue is a good choice. It definitely helps your character in the majority of cases.
Sky Blue is a fantastic choice. An option you should strongly consider above most others.
Gold is mandatory. It's a rare rating that denotes something that is so good that you must take it, or you can't call yourself optimized.
This guide doesn’t attempt to give you a full understanding of the Druid class, other builds, or RP options. For those you can refer to a generic Druid guide. This guide deals specifically with the Circle of the Moon Druid and its available options and synergies.
2. Class Features
The classes mechanices are fairly straightforward:
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At level 2, you gain the ability to take a stronger Wild Shape form than other druids
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At level 6, your attacks in Wild Shape count as magical
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At level 14, you gain a free use of Alter Self, although I’m not sure why you’d want it.
...and that’s it. The rest of your benefits come from the abilities of the increasingly more powerful creatures you can transform into.
3. Ability Scores
Your ability scores aren’t quite as relevant as other classes, even for your attack stat, so you have more license than other classes to be creative.
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Strength gets replaced by Wild Shape. It’s useful only for multiclassing and skill checks outside of combat.
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Dexterity gets replaced by Wild Shape, but powers your initiative and AC outside of beast form. Spare points not used for multiclassing can go here.
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Constitution gets replaced by Wild Shape, but hit points are always good, and you may need to keep a concentrated spell up for a round or two between Wild Shapes. It’s even better if you multiclass into Barbarian.
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Intelligence sticks with you in human form, and powers a decent array of skills, but gives you nothing else.
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Wisdom stays with you in beast form powers your spell DCs and important skills Perception. Despite this, it’s still not as necessary as other classes’ primary stat. It gets better if you multiclass into Monk, but you can get away with a 14 in this stat at level 1 if you’re interested in getting creative with your race or multiclassing.
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Charisma sticks with you through Wild Shape, but you won’t be making much use of it since you can’t talk while transformed. It’s not a bad place to throw some extra points, since it’s useful out of combat as well.
4. Races
Although most races would line up directly around ability scores, this isn’t the case for us. The primary driver of your race should be story, and whether the race provides useful features in your beast form.
Common Races
Dwarf (Hill): Stats you like and bonus HP.
Dwarf (Mountain): Nothing you get from taking this subrace is useful.
Elf (High): Bows are a nice compliment when you’re not Wild Shaped, some of the Wizard cantrips are interesting out-of-combat, but this subrace doesn’t give you much that Wood Elf doesn’t do better.
Elf (Wood) Excellent stats, and all of the subrace abilities are useful. The obvious choice.
Elf (Drow): Nothing you get from taking this subrace is useful. The standard elf stuff applies here, but the racial features aren’t useful with Wild Shape. While it’s not a great Druid race, Circle of the Moon Druid is a great option if you’ve got your heart set on playing drow, since their primary drawback does not apply while wild shaped.
Halfling (Lightfoot): Although Lucky and Brave are good abilities, Halfling abilities that care about your size aren’t useful since you’ll spend most of your time large or bigger.
Halfling (Stout): Slightly better stats and even more resistances makes this an acceptable choice.
Human (Standard): You don’t need the stats. They’re fine, but there are better options.
Human (Variant): Feats are so powerful early game that this becomes a great choice.
Uncommon Races
Dragonborn: Uninteresting stats, but the other powers are useful.
Gnome: The defensive boost is OK, but that’s all you’ve got going for you with this race. The stats aren’t great and their powers aren’t useful with Wild Shape.
Half-Elf: Legit stats and a skill. Not bad.
Half-Orc: Although the stats aren’t great, everything else they have is useful in Wild Shape.
Tiefling: There’s nothing for you here.
DMG Races
Aasimar: Stats you’re looking for but otherwise unhelpful features.
Elf (Eladrin): High elves seem marginally better, but a teleport could be situationally incredible.
Elemental Evil Races
Aarakocra: Useful stats, though the flight and talons abilities are not allowed in beast form. Given that your wild shape requires level 8 before it gives you flight, and the CR of flying creatures is never greater than your level 2 forms, it’s safe to say that having resourceless flight from level 1 is absurdly powerful.
Gnome (Deep): Nothing wrong with these guys; their darkvision is useful and their saving throw bonus makes up for cruddy stats.
Genasi (Air): You can’t actually use the Mingle with the Wind trait while in wild shape, although your ability to recreate Sharknado means there might be some fun RP opportunities.
Genasi (Earth): Earthwalk and Pass Without Trace are interesting abilities with some good exploration potential, but they don’t synergize particularly well with anything you’re doing.
Genasi (Fire): Meh stats, spells you can’t cast in beast form, but some upside with darkvision and fire resistance.
Genasi (Water): Although the spells granted aren’t usable in beast form, they’re not really combat spells either. Water breathing and a swim speed aren’t the most exciting of abilities, but are situationally very useful if you’ve outleveled or just don’t want to expend one of your aquatic forms. And oh, hey, stat compatibility. Bonus.
Goliath: Once-per-short-rest damage mitigation is nice, and in mammoth form you could carry back the entire dragon’s horde and the dragon.
Unearthed Arcana Races
These are experimental rules. Ask your DM if you can use them. But they’re so underpowered that there’s no reason other than story to say no.
Changeling: Thought nothing could be worse than a tiefling? You were wrong! Shapechanger could be fun, but it conflicts with wild shape and the stats are both not helpful and underbudget.
Minotaur (Krynn): Decent stat bump, but I wouldn't let you use any of the horns-related features in wild shape. Circle of the Land would probably be more fun for a Druid Minotaur.
Shifter: I’m not going to go through all of the shifter subraces. They’re terrible. I’m not sure why wizards thought a once-per-short-rest ability was worth shorting this race in stat points. Notable exceptions are below. Whether shifting works with wild shape is up in the air, although if your DM rules that it doesn’t, these all go down to whatever color is worse than red.
Shifter (Longstride): You’re not going to have a lot of use for bonus actions, so the ability to run around a lot could have its uses.
Shifter (Razorclaw): While useful things to do with bonus actions are nice, the damage is not going to be worth the time you spend rolling the attack at higher levels. Gets a little better if you take a few levels of Monk.
Warforged: An AC bonus is useful to beast forms, but probably not so good as to short you of a stat point and all other racial features.
5. Forms
There are three things to consider when taking a beast form: damage potential, survivability, and utility. The number of forms at CR 1 are pretty vibrant and interesting, but they fall off quickly. At higher levels, expect only one or two choices, and their mechanics aren’t that interesting.
This guide only includes CR1+ forms. Others exist, but they don’t provide anything that isn’t better in the forms below.
Calculations on effectiveness are based on this spreadsheet. In general there are four types of forms:
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Multiattack forms allow the beast to make two or more attacks with a single action. These forms generally do the most damage because the second attack is unconditional.
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Charge forms do bonus damage if the druid moves a certain distance toward the target in a straight line, frequently knocking the target prone afterwards. They generally do great damage if you can charge every turn.
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Pounce forms allow you to make multiple attacks, but the second attack only triggers if you charged and if the target fails a Strength saving throw or if the target is prone. These forms are typically inferior damage-wise, because of the conditions required to trigger their attacks. The value improves if you have a reliable source of knocking an enemy prone in your party.
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Poison forms do additional poison damage if the target fails a saving throw, and half if they succeed. Poison damage can be unreliable; many creatures are immune to it.
The challenge of rating forms is that unlike feats or prepared spells, you're not stuck with one choice. Even a purple-rated option can be the best option in a given situation. My ratings for forms merely attempt to signal which options I believe superior in most situations. If you've got to make a choice with incomplete information, odds are that a higher-ranked form will be a better option. I've tried to capture where situational differences will highlight one form's benefits over others'.
A note for Adventurer’s League players: recent rules changes have limited the already small pool of druid forms based not on their relative power or compatibility with the setting, but on how Wizards has organized their books. I recommend you do your research before bringing a druid to D&D AL, and suggest you provide the team feedback on this decision via one of their myriad social media outlets (i.e. don’t debate it here).
Level 3 Forms
Brown Bear: Multiattack with a longsword and a greatsword. Amazing. But a low enough AC to make you pretty-much auto-hit by enemies. Great for damage against hordes and low-AC target.
Dire Wolf: Better AC, and knocks your enemy prone on a hit. Prone is not as strong of a condition as it was in 4E. Better if you have a bunch of melee allies and no other reliable means of getting advantage.
Giant Hyena: A boatload of HP, and decent spike damage potential if you manage to land a killing blow. Not much utility to speak of.
Giant Spider: The spider provides a ton of unique things that can be very valuable at this level: blindsight, darkvision, spider climb, a ranged attack and typed damage, but it is relatively low on Hit Points. Not so great against undead.
Lion: Tons of utility, but depressingly low damage. Potentially useful outside of combat.
Tiger: Exactly the same as the lion, but you trade pack attack and a long jump for darkvision, a handful of hit points and slight damage increase. Only useful if you need darkvision and your targets are immune to poison.
Level 4 Forms
Giant Octopus: My favorite low-level form. An absurd amount of HP, and a pretty pretty unique attack: a 15-foot maul that grapples and restrains. It’s damage is poor, but it’s also the only source of bludgeoning damage at this level, which can prove useful. Although it’s an aquatic creature, don’t be afraid to use this on land for its utility.
Giant Toad: Another form that provides interesting utility. Decent damage, but accuracy might prove to be a problem.
Level 6 Forms
Level 6 is the next big power boost. The difference in DPR between the top forms and the rest is striking.
Allosaurus: Pounce looks good on paper, but forcing you to make a low-damage attack in order to make the high-damage one is actually just as efficient as just biting things.
Giant Boar: Although ever-so-slightly-tankier, In pretty much every circumstance, the Rhino is better.
Giank Elk: Huge, reach and amazing damage.
Giant Constrictor Snake: Huge, with reach. OK control. Might have its niche.
Hunter Shark: Advantage is nice, but the damage is sub-par.
Plesiosaurus: Your go-to aquatic form.
Polar Bear: It’s a bigger bear, and just as good.
Rhinocerous: Can be an absolute damage cannon if you can charge every turn.
Saber-Toothed Tiger: The stealth form for this tier. Unlike the Allosaurus, you pounce with your high-damage attack to trigger the low-damage one, making it a little more viable.
Level 8 Forms
Eight is a bit of a disappointing level. While you finally get access to flying forms, you don’t get anything that Circle of the Land druids don’t get too.
Giant Eagle: The best flying form available. It’s almost as tough a brown bear, but doesn’t hold its own against the CR2 forms.
Giant Vulture: Incredibly squishy and inaccurate. Not a lot of value here when the eagle exists.
Level 9 Forms
Nine is where the basic rules start slowing down. There’s nothing wrong with the forms, they just lack variety and utility. Hopefully we’ll see more options in the Monster Manual.
Ankylosaurus: It’s a bigger Dire Wolf. Its accuracy makes it better against high-AC opponents than the Scorpion, or when your party benefits from prone.
Giant Scorpion: Much better damage potential for a slight trade-off in Hit Points and utility. Great against low-AC opponents.
Killer Whale: You need an aquatic form? Here you go. It’s bigger than the Plesiosaurus.
Level 10 Forms
Ten is an exciting level. You get to trade two uses of Wild Shape for s super-powered form. All of these have a ton of immunities and resistances. Regardless their rating, they all can be the star of the show if you need a movement mode or your opponents only do damage you’re immune to.
Air Elemental: Finally, a legit form with flying. Not to mention an AoE. Respectively tanky as well.
Earth Elemental: Amazingly tanky with a high AC and a ton of hit points, but it lacks in the way of utility. Pick it if you need a wall or to knock one down. Much better if you have a way to keep your enemies stuck to you.
Fire Elemental: Unlimited damage potential against hordes, and save-free auto damage that forces your opponent to spend an action to stop it. Pretty amazing. Its low armor and HP relative to the other elementals are a bit of a liability, and what keeps it from outshining the other elementals.
Water Elemental: Grapples, restrains and suffocates, making this look pretty awesome. But it’s hampered by low AC and an incentive to provoke opportunity attacks.
Level 12 Forms
Elephant: It’s a bigger Tiger. Its your only chioce, so love it or leave it, you'll probably be using it.
Level 15 Forms
The level 15 forms all have their benefits. Which to pick is purely based on what you need.
Giant Crocodile: Swim speed, grapples and prones. It’s only drawback is that it requires two targets to multiattack, otherwise it gets less interesting.
Giant Shark: Another boring aquatic form, but this one comes with a boatload of hit points and essentially permanent advantage. Not bad.
Triceratops: It’s a bigger Elephant. Its damage potential and tankiness are pretty comparable to the Crocodile. Pick this one if you’ve got a single target or prefer damage over utility.
Level 18 Forms
Mammoth: Again, your only choice, and not an interesting one either.
Form modifications
Half-Dragon Template (Monster Manual): This adds some neat abilities for a beast without affect its CR. If you run into, say, a half-dragon mammoth (an interesting story behind that one, I’m sure) it’s got nothing but upside form-wise.
6. Spells
Reserved.
7. Feats
Over the course of your career, you have the opportunity to pick up five feats (six if you’re human) at the cost of bumps to your ability scores. Since our primary stats don’t help us as much as other classes, a six-feat build is potentially viable. The following feats are the top contenders for those slots. There are tons of feats that don’t synergize at all with wild shape, so I’m not going to mention them here.
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Alert: Initiative and defense against surprise helps ensure you don’t get insta-gibbed before taking your wild shape.
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Athlete: The effects apply in your beast form, and give you some nice bonus mobility.
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Charger: has some very nice synergy with charge forms (but not pounce forms, with which it conflicts), nice if you didn’t pick up a different option that gives you something to do with your bonus action.
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Dungeon Delver: many forms already give you advantage on checks, so this isn’t great, but it does have some value if exploration is a big part of your campaign.
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Grappler: This feat is weird a bit bad, but it has some synergy with Giant Octopus, Giant Scorpion and Water Elemental. Probably not worth it unless you really like grappling.
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Inspiring Leader: You probably don’t have the stats to make this incredibly useful, but its benefits fit your role as party protector.
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Keen Mind: Rarely applicable to combat, but its benefits do carry over into beast form.
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Lucky: This effect applies in beast form as well, and can be great in clutch moments. Its value varies considerably by how long your adventuring days tend to be. Really fun if you’re a gambler; I’m not.
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Mage Slayer: You’re always looking for ways to make use of your reaction, and this is one. Also some nice defensive benefits.
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Magic Initiate: Blue only because it gives you access to mage armor, which can be a huge benefit to your beast forms. Utility cantrips can be nice too.
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Martial Adept: Superiority dice give you some nice once-per-rest utility.
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Mobile: Turns your charge form into a hit-and-run missile. You probably want to be in melee tanking damage, though.
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Observant: You’re already good at perception, getting even better makes you the perfect party radar.
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Resilient (Dex): A common saving throw; proficiency is nice.
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Resilient (Con): Another common saving throw, this one also helps you maintain concentration on your buff spells. This has a slight edge over Warcaster because you’re not doing a lot of spellcasting in humanoid form.
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Ritual Caster: Adds another class to your list of allowed rituals. Not bad if your DM makes a lot of opportunity for them.
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Savage Attacker: A nice damage boost, but it’s just damage. Utility should usually be your focus.
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Sentinel: An incredible feat, especially when combined with the at-will prone ability of the Dire Wolf or Ankylosaurus and the high defenses of the Earth Elemental. Not only are you a massive wall of temporary hit points, but now you’re incredibly sticky and have a reliable source of off-turn attacks.
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Skilled: Skills are nice.
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Skulker: Although nice at early levels, your beast forms rapidly become too massive and ungainly to get any benefit out of this.
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Spell Sniper: Nice way to pick up a cleric or druid attack cantrip, but you probably don’t want to be using cantrips in combat too often.
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Tough: This does not apply to your wild shape, but it’s nice if you have trouble surviving when the enemies start to focus on you.
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War Caster: Another way to help keep your concentration. Generally not as good as Resilent until you get your Beast Spells class feature at level 18, at which point it becomes very interesting.
8. Multiclassing
Multiclassing is a tricky topic. Because the CR of your beast forms is based on your druid level, there’s a pretty high opportunity cost for multiclassing. If you go more than five levels into another class, you’re going to be incredibly behind, stats-wise. Rather than evaluate every possible class 1-20, this guide will look solely at effects in the first five levels to see if there are synergies you can get quickly.
Some general notes:
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Avoid class features that rely on stats replace by your beast form.
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Extra Attack is amazing, since most monsters are balanced assuming only one attack. The only thing it doesn’t apply to is abilities that grant attacks like multiattack. One of the few features that might make it worthwhile to go deep into a class.
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AC Boosts make your forms significantly tougher, and help you soak up even more damage. Features like Unarrmored Defense or Mage Armor give you either their AC calculation or your natural armor, whichever is higher—they don’t stack.
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Your Ninth-level spell requires 17 caster levels to receive. Although most PCs never see this level, if you do, it’s worth planning for.
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The Beast Spells feature at level 18 limits you to only two multiclass levels if you want it.
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None of the Fighting Style options for any class apply in Wild Shape.
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Beasts make poor use of bonus actions and reactions, so look for class features that let you use them.
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Beast form attacks are melee weapon attacks, but you are not “wielding” a weapon, nor are you wearing armor if your form has natural armor
Barbarian
Although the requirement to invest in strength is a bit of a bummer, dipping barbarian has some great upside. Unarmored defense isn’t as good as the monk version, but still great, and barbarian paths provide a great choice between damage, utility and tankiness.
Benefits:
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3 Rages/day (bonus damage, resistance)
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Unarmored defense (Con). Most forms have either good Dex or good Con, so this will often give you a defensive boost.
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Can gain advantage by granting advantage.
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Advantage on dex saves
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+10 speed
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Frenzy - attack as bonus action each rounf, but exhaustion OR
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Resiance to all but psychic damage (Bear Totem) OR
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Allies have advantage on melee attacks (Wolf Totem)
Bard
Bardic Inspiration works in beast form, and you get a few skill bonuses as well. Unfortunately the interesting abilities (magical secrets, extra attack) begin so late that you’d be giving up both your CR 5 & 6 forms--probably not worth it.
Benefits:
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Bardic Inspiration
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Healing during rests
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1:1 caster levels
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Expertise and proficiencies
Cleric
There’s great stat synergy with clerics and some amazing class features right from level 1. Of special note is war domain (attack as a bonus action), and light domain (impose disadvantage). There’s a pretty heated debate whether a cleric MC will give your human form access to metal armor. Ask your DM.
While I’ve rated cleric blue for taking one level, there’s not a ton to get excited for beyond that. Levels beyond 1 aren’t that great.
Benefits:
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1:1 caster levels
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1st level gives a power with a daily limit of uses equal to your Wisdom modifier.
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Channel divinity
Fighter
Another extra attack class with features that apply in beast form. They’re all useful, splitting between offense, utility and defense. A solid choice.
Benefits:
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Fighting Style in human form
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Heal as bonus action 1/enc
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Action Surge - second action in addition to action and bonus action
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Crit on 19+ OR
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Superiority dice (4d8), 3 maneuvers, tool proficiency OR
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2 Wizard cantrips, 1:3 caster levels, including Mage Armor.
Monk
With just one level you gain the ability to add your primary stat to your wild shape AC. You also get a ton of utility. Pretty much all of the class features are useful in beast form, save the ones that trigger off of flurry of blows or grant you spells. Way of the Elements is probably your best bet.
Benefits:
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+Wis to AC
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Martial Arts - Dex for weapons, bonus action attack in human form
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Ki - 3/enc bonus action: 2x attacks, dodge or disengage dash jump
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+10 speed
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deflect missile
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stun on hit
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bonus on flurry OR
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stealthy spells OR
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Cantrip + "spell"
Paladin
This one is tricky. It requires you to invest in both STR and CHA, and many of its spells and fighting style only apply in human form. But smites work while in wild shape, providing some impressive damage capability in short bursts. Plus it adds extra attack while also getting your ninth-level spells.
Benefits:
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Detect good/evil
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Heal 25 hp
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Fighting Style in human form
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1:2 caster levels and some unique spells
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Expend spell slots for +1d8/level damage
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Immunue to disease
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+Cha to attacks with a weapon OR
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Entangle with vines OR
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Frighten enemy + Advantage vs 1 enemy
Ranger
Ranger MC uses stats you’ll probably have anyway, but its first couple of levels aren’t particularly interesting. The level 3 hunter options can all be used in beast form though, and provide a legitimate damage boost, paving the way for extra attack again at 5th level. Not as much to make you tanky, however, which is what you really want.
Benefits:
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Skill boosts
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Fighting Style in human form
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1:2 caster levels
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Expend spell slots for awareness
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+1d8 damage when you hit a creature under max health OR
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Attack when hit or missed as a reaction OR
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Attack two creatures per turn OR
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low-HP beast companion
Rogue
The signature rogue ability, sneak attack, doesn’t work in beast form, so many people will probably dismiss the class right away. The upside to rogue is that it does provide you with a reliable use for both your bonus action and your reaction, and a bonus action Disengage can make it easier to play a charge-focused form. Three levels is probably as deep into rogue as you’d want to go.
Benefits:
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Expertise with two skills
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Sneak Attacks in human form
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Cunning Action can make use of your bonus action
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Uncanny Dodge makes your wild shape tankier
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Better climb speed OR
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Auto-crit surprised opponents OR
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3 Wizard cantrips, 1:3 caster level
Sorcerer
Since the sorcerer relies almost entirely on casting spells, and has poor stat synergy with druids, you’re not going to get a lot of benefit from multiclassing here. That said, there are some useful buff spells you can pick up that remain active in your wild shape. It’s doubtful that delaying your build for them will pay off, however.
Benefits:
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1:1 caster levels
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Some excellent buff spells like Mage Armor and Haste
Warlock
Eldritch invocations provide some decent utility by level 2, and The Great Old One feature allows you to mitigate your inability to speak in beast form. There’s not much benefit from going deep into the class, however.
Benefits:
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Additional spell slots
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AoE Fear OR
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Temp HP on a kill OR
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Telepathy
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A familiar OR
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A fancy weapon OR
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3 cantrips from any class
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The choice of at-will powers or spells including Mage Armor and Darkvision
Wizard
The wizard suffers the same challenges that the Sorcerer does. However, he gains additional benefit from Arcane Tradition, since the features of a few schools can be applied while in beast form.
Benefits:
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1:1 caster levels
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Some interesting school benefits (abjuration, enchantment, divination) work in Beast Form
Some excellent buff spells like Mage Armor and Haste
8. ???
Reserved.
One use of Drow or Tiefling is to get Darkness with a form which has Blindsense, such as Giant Constrictor.
Your ranking of the forms shows a heavy bias towards the ones that do the most damage, giving only a slight nod to your primary role as a damage mitigator. As a moon druid, the greatest asset you bring to the table is your ability to soak up a ton of damage that would otherwise be distributed among the other members of your party. Your wildshape forms represent a huge reservoir of temporary hit points that gets completely renewed every time you take a short rest. No one else has a completely renewable resource like this. Your damage potential, on the other hand, gets very quickly outstripped by other members of the team. Recognizing this, your main focus should be to try to draw as much enemy fire as possible, and to ensure that you can absorb as much of the resulting damage as possible.
This bias is most clearly reflected in your ranking of the Dire Wolf, which has the highest AC of any CR 1 form and the second highest HP behind the Giant Hyena. You also undersell the ability to consistently hit your opponents and knock them prone as a control effect, thereby setting up teammates that have a greater damage potential, and making you enough of a nuisance to draw enemy fire away from these harder hitting allies. In short, your ranking of the forms seems to reflect a misunderstanding of your core competencies as a moon druid. Viewing things through the lens of damage mitigation, I would rank the Dire Wolf as bright blue, and the Giant Spider as only situationally useful, for instance.
When evaluating a given form for my Circle of the Moon Druid, the questions that I ask, in order of priority, are:
- How durable will I be when I assume this form (HP, AC, Saving Throws)?
- Will I be able to annoy my foes enough to make myself an attractive target in this form relative to my harder-hitting allies?
- Which movement modes, senses, and skills does the form grant that might be situationally useful?
EDIT: BTW - I like the reference to the William Blake poem in the thread title. Quite evocative and apropos.
Maybe dedicate a few lines to utility forms? Clearly sub-CR1 forms aren't worth it in combat, but might they have access to abilities that are insanely useful out of it? Just a thought, I really feel a Druid's power lies in versatility, in and out of combat.
I agree, the biggest feature of land druids is their ability to get loads of extra HP. Not that it hurts to kill people.
And prone is better then it was in 4e. Advantage > +2.
And it still cost the full movement to stand.
Another pet-peve of mine is that rating something red because something else is better.
mellored wrote:
rcanine, no particular thoughts but wanted to give props for the blake reference. well done!
When you get to multiclassing, does anyone know how Extra Attack works with a beast form multi-attack?
Thanks for the feedback, guys!
Leugren wrote:
Seraphex wrote:
RCanine wrote:
FWIW, I changed my Red definition and specified a specific case when "outclassed" merits that rating.
Red is dead. A trap that you will want to avoid at all costs, either because it's ineffective or because it's thoroughly outclassed by another option that accomplishes something similar.
By the way, I'd rename the title to specify Moon Druids. I know you have the disclaimer in your first post, but best to make it clear in the title as well, no?
RCanine wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
mellored wrote:
OK. Here are some numbers:
DPR for Dire Wolf w/ Pack Tactics against AC 15 = 9.64
DPR for Brown Bear against AC 15 = 12.55
As you can see the, DPR for the Dire Wolf in this case is almost 80% that of the Brown Bear, not half as you suggested.
But let's take it a step further. Let's imagine that you have a 2nd-level Barbarian buddy with a Greatsword fighting next to you, and let's gauge the impact to his DPR whenever you grant him advantage by tripping your opponent:
DPR for Barbarian Ally w/out Advantage against AC 15 = 7.75
DPR for Barbarian Ally with Advantage against AC 15 = 11.24
If you combine these figures with the Druid's, you end up with the following on any round in which you successfully trip your opponent:
Combined DPR for Dire Wolf and Barbarian Ally against AC 15 = 20.88
Combined DPR for Brown Bear and Barbarian Ally against AC 15 = 20.3
As you can see, when you add a single melee ally to the equation, the total damage output for the Dire Wolf form suddenly has the potential to equal or exceed the the total damage output for the Brown Bear form. This is even more pronounced if you have additional allies who can benefit from the advantage granted when you trip your opponent. When you factor in the higher AC and HP of the Dire Wolf form (which is what really matters here since your job is to soak up damage), then it becomes no contest. There is no question in my mind that, if you are ranking the Brown Bear as sky blue, then you should also be ranking the Dire Wolf as sky blue, unless you are assuming that the Druid is adventuring alone or in an all-ranged party. Those are the only times that I might choose the Brown Bear form, and they represent the exception rather than the rule.
feartheminotaur wrote:
mellored wrote:
Leugren wrote:
feartheminotaur wrote:
Leugren wrote:
mellored wrote:
I guess then the questino becomes more basic, in regards to the guides in general.
They are designed to rate the various options, not to rank the various options. On face value, one sky blue is the same as another sky blue. So, if I have a Druid who hasn't seen a Rhino, but has seen a Giant Elk and a Polar Bear, the guides tells me the Elk and Bear are 'equal' in terms of rank - there is no second best. Perhaps a line in an entry that says "If you can't do X, then consider Y" would allow the reader to compare.
Rhinocerous: Can be an absolute damage cannon if you can charge every turn. If you're looking to tank, and this form is unavailable, consider the Giant Boar
EDIT: Just looked a few of the 4E guides and they generally do this - either with "if you can't take this power, take this one" or by setting up a description before the ranks "Good options here for tanks include the Rhinocerous or the Giant Boar, while the reach of the Giant Elk will fit some builds better" (or something)
feartheminotaur wrote:
Hey, if you'd like more form data already put into a spreadsheet, here they are, broken-up alphabetically and by druid level:
When looking at form "efficiency" or "effectiveness", also don't discount the ability to take forms with grappling effects that also Restrain (unlike any other PC's grappling). So while a normal grapple only reduces speed to 0, the Restraining beast grapples reduce speed to 0, give all attackers advantage against the target, and give the target disadvantage on Dex saves.
Also important is the fact that size is not restricted. So I can become a Giant Constrictor Snake (size Huge) or a Giant Crocodile (also Huge) and grapple the Tarrasque (and maybe also knock him prone if I'm the crocodile). Since none of his listed Legendary actions include "break free from a grapple", that means he's wasting his actual Action to try & break free, which means that 5-part multi-attack does not go off. Same thing goes for Ancient Red Dragons or any other Legendary critter I've seen so far.
JoeyLast wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Leugren wrote:
mellored wrote:
I believe you actually need to have seen/met the animal in quesiton before you can turn into it, so it does make sense that you might want to/have to take wild boar over rhinocerous.
ppaladin123 wrote:
Leugren wrote:
mellored wrote:
At my Encounters table this season (HoDQ), I'm keeping track of the animals the Druid PC at my table "sees" in-game, then when he hits level 2 (and of course he's planning to go Moon Path), I plan to print out the DM Basic Rules & cut out the forms he can access at level 2 (clearly delineated in my spreadsheet, by the way), and have him randomly pick one more for each point of Wisdom bonus he has. Encounters won't get higher than level 3 or 4, so we shouldn't have to worry about too many crazy additional forms, but that felt "fair" to me as a starting set of animals... 3 random (he's got a 16 Wis) + whatever we've seen in game (which right now includes black bears & riding horses).
JoeyLast wrote:
RCanine wrote:
FYI This could be pertinent for the guide I asked Jeremy Crawford about ranger's beast companion OA on twitter;
@Plaguescarred Can a ranger's beast companion take reaction and make opportunity attack? -
@JeremyECrawford I would rule that the beast can make an opportunity attack.
Yeah, I may end up being more lax and just letting him get the forms he wantsat the Encounters table, since that's just supposed to be a place for folks to have fun and get introduced to D&D. Also the guy refers to himself by the nickname "Wolf" and has been talking about the dire wolf stats since the PHB was released. Maybe I'll just use my oh-so-stealthy sleight-of-hand magician skills to make sure he picks the Dire Wolf card from among the random options.
In a home game, I would absolutely make a druid player do some kind of quest to either meet a creature himself or spiritually "meet" the creature in a vision quest. Or maybe "find an ancient creature like a dragon and get it to magically share a memory of this ancient dinosaur with you." Lots of ways that could be done. It's interesting (though not surprising, given the haphazard feel of much of the other writing in the PHB) that they specifically included the language about the druid needing to have seen that form before turning into it... but then gave no guidelines as to how that might be adjudicated. Oh well.
Also of relevance...
I'll be doing a livestream podcast of a game where I'll play a 5E level 20 Moon Druid where Mike Shea (of Sly Flourish.com) will be putting me & some other D&D podcasters up against various Legendary Creatures, including the Tarrasque. This'll be Sunday, September 21 at 7:30 PM Eastern Time, and you can watch it at either of these links:
RCanine wrote:
At this point, you have seen the math to back up my arguments, and you have heard first-hand testimonial evidence from at least two people who were actually using the Brown Bear form, but who switched to the Dire Wolf form and found it much better (@Gruff_Ironfirst and myself). You can either change your ratings to reflect this feedback, or you can continue to prevaricate and point out corner cases in order to defend your current stance. It's entirely up to you. If you choose the latter course, I will be advising people not to take too much of what you have to say seriously. The fact that you rank a Giant Spider above the Dire Wolf is pretty damned ridiculous to me, and I would wager that most people who have actually played a Moon Druid and who understand what it's supposed to do would agree with me. Don't get me wrong, I really do appreciate what you've tried to do here, but I'm concerned that you are misleading new players, and that you seem a bit stubborn in terms of incorporating new feedback and varying viewpoints.
Would Monk´s Unarmored Defense works while Wildshaped into a beast?
Leugren wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
HeirRaktus wrote:
Will they release more material on what can be shapeshift into in further manuals?
I'll add to the recommendation that you develop this guide in a way that will help the most players: by assuming a party of four players, including at least one melee combatant and one ranged combatant (in addition to the druid). There is very little merit in basing your guide on a druid's solo performance.
For that matter, the viability of the dire wolf form is all but indisputable, through both mathematical evidence and practical experience. I've certainly been convinced, although I was pro-dire wolf to begin with. 
It definitely deserves a higher rating as a combat option. Giant spider should probably be blue instead of sky blue.
As far as the dire wolf v. brown bear debate; From reading the other optimization threads, my understanding of DPR and initial ratings, is not to incorpoate other characters into the equation; I guess as an, "all else being equal," kind-of-thing. And then later in the rating, it may up the color and say- "if you have an adjacent ally" (or whatever), then > sky blue < (or whatever).
I'm about to play a moon druid (starting at 2nd level), so I'm taking all that is said in this thread into consideration. Right now, insofar as wild shapes; I'm thinking dire wolf as my default choice, and brown bear when I go more so, mono a mono. I also took the charger feat (I'm assuming it works with natural weapons, given that the monster stat blocks list such as weapons). Thus, whatever beast form I'm in, I'll be charging a lot (hopefully).
MykeSchultz wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Direach wrote:
MykeSchultz wrote:
Understandable. I guess I meant once or twice per encounter, as opposed to a lot (I'm not even a charging kind-of-guy, and I despised the charge spam of 4ed.). I haven't totally completed my character, and my 1 feat selection is still tenative. But I figured I was going to stay behind the tough guys and attack enemies with thorn whip from 30 feet away, then if the situation called for it; thorn whip (probably), then switch into beast form (bonus action); then on the next turn, charge, i.e., dash then the bonus action attack. But I derno, because things have to line up accordingly for everything to fall into place, and it could end up getting foiled a lot. But looking through the feats nothing else really jumps out at me; I was thinking perhaps dual-wielder, but despite its consistency with the charger feat (i.e., a natural melee attack being a weapon melee attack, and say, two claws equals two weapons; but I'm not entirely sure my DM would go for that. Especially, given my repuation at the table of annihilating monsters (and a lot of people, in general, are already having a kinipshin about the moon druid being overpowered- which I say, low-level a bit; higher level though, not at all).
So, right now I'm looking for a feat, and so far its charger. But perhaps I could convince the dm about dual-wielder?
I'm very much looking forward to this guide, because after I get done with organized play (levels 1-3, i.e., level 0) this is going to be my main homegame character.
RCanine wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Help me understand. Which is the killer feature you see of the dire wolf, the lockdown from prone or perma-advantage from pack tactics?
To me the prone status seems like a marginal benefit because:
- You don't benefit from it, since the enemy just stands right back up
- Bad if you're attacking from range or reach, which should be 50% of your party
- Neutral if you have advantage from another source (Barbarian and Rogue features, faerie fire, etc)
- Good otherwise
Unless you have Sentinel, which turns it into pretty strong lock down. I see that as a benefit for Sentinel, however, and with the exception of humans, it's only relevant for 1-3 levels before you're going to ditch your dire wolf form for something tougher.
Also, let's keep the language friendly here, guys. This is a guide for a game we play in out minds, not geopolitical economic policies.
Also, my thoughts on multiclassing are up.
RCanine wrote:
1eejit wrote:
RCanine wrote:
A 9th level spell requires 17 DRUID levels to get. If your paladin 6/druid 14, you'll have a 8th and 9th level slot, but not eathquake or storm of vengence.
I'd move barbarian down to blue. It's good, but without heavy investing, you only have a few rages per day. And they don't last too long. Unless your DM only does big battles, and no little ones.
Second Wind dosn't scale well, so it's not too good, likewise for abjuration.
Though fighter is solid all around, and wizard is still kinda weak.
I agree that unarmored defense works, but does not stack.
Flurry of blows however, doesn't work, since you don't have an "unarmed attack" in beast form. Though you can still dodge, dash, or disingage.
For paladins, Where does it say that beasts are melee weapon attacks?
Shillelagh, or simply beast form eleimiates the need for Str. And many paladin spells don't have an Attack/DC, so you can easily ignore Cha as well (unless you go paladin 6).
You might also want to mention the sorcerer's ability to move slots around. Meta-magic could also be helpful, using a quickend spell for instance, and also attacking. Longer buff durations could also be nice.
mellored wrote:
1eejit wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
1eejit wrote:
mellored wrote:
mellored wrote:
RCanine wrote:
1eejit wrote:
RCanine wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
I'd guess they're deciding that a wolf's fur is rougher and coarser than a tiger's (which, technically, it is), granting it a +1 natural AC bonus.
I don't have my PHB here with me at work, but the final question would come down to wording. Specifically if the description of Unarmored Defense says "when you WEAR no armor" vs "when you HAVE no armor". I think I remember it saying "wear", but I can't be 100% right now.
Because the text from the monster AC section in the DM rules says "If a monster has natural armor, wears armor, or carries a shield, this is noted in parentheses after its AC value."
That would seem to indicate that WEARING armor is different than HAVING armor, which would be a point towards allowing unarmored defense to work with animal forms (assuming UD uses the word "wear"). If UD says "have no armor", then it should NOT work with animal forms that have natural armor.
Again, it's all pedantry, I agree. But that's kind of what we're left with when rules are written as casually as the 5E ones have been. As a DM, I probably would not allow them to synergize, but that's just me.
JoeyLast wrote:
While I see the value of the dire wolf I think that the AC of the dire wolf is overrated. Casting barkskin will give you an AC of 16 independent of the form.
DSZ wrote:
Yeah, Concentration is a killer for a lot of Druid spells. Even Shapechange, a level 9 spell, which should be the awesomest spell ever, like a jacked-up wildshape... could be lost in 1 round if you lose your concentration. Feels very anti-climactic.
JoeyLast wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Also, if you're in wildshape form, don't you use the form's Con when making Con saves (including your own proficiency & advantage from feats)? I guess I just wanted more from a level 9 spell... like maybe a "till the end of the encounter" or "for the next hour", at the very least. Still, you're right, with that War Caster feat it gets a lot easier to maintain concentration.
DSZ wrote:
Leugren wrote:
feartheminotaur wrote:
Faerie Fire is a nice one.
Hold person is highly overrated, you get an initial save and then another one every round.
Conjure xy are good to go.
So it depends on how high you rate the additional AC and the tanking role you assumed.
As I pointed out I see the value of the dire wolf and I would rate it higher than it is here but I would not call it the obvious choice as (I think) you do.
I think it is a pretty close call, especially with e.g. fighter MC and double amount of attacks from action surge.
Yes, I saw that you knew about the feats shortly after I posted.
DSZ wrote:
By the way, if you e.g. MC Fighter (hint: start as a Fighter) you can spare the feat Resilient.
feartheminotaur wrote:
Direach wrote:
One should hope that (MC fighter) e.g. 2 call lightning attacks or 4 attacks of a bear or.... will get some attention.
That's an excellent point on the summons - if the bad guys are trying to chop up your bag of weasels, you're likely to prevent more total party damage than a Charm or Barkskin.
DSZ wrote:
mellored wrote:
Leugren wrote:
mellored wrote:
Leugren wrote:
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
The air elemental could become a path of destruction:
Move 90 feet, attack twice:
Att: +8 for 2d8+5per attack and every creature in its 90 feet long and 10 feet wide path of destruction (can enter enemies space)
takes 3d8+2 damage, strength save DC 13 for half and if the save is not made:
take another 1d6 dmge and prone.
Now combine that with MC fighter (2) and do this nice thing twice per round.
And for every attack you have advantage on everyone who did not make the save the first time.
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
Leugren wrote:
DSZ wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
GladiusLegis wrote:
danyc wrote:
Feats are done!
RCanine wrote:
I wanted to try to quantify the difference in durability between a Dire Wolf and a Brown Bear, so here are a couple of fun facts (courtesy of a simple combat simulator):
- It takes a goblin 12.43 rounds on average to kill a Dire Wolf.
- It takes a goblin only 9.12 rounds on average to kill a Brown Bear.
It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate a statement on the relative durability of these forms from the aforementioned figures. Given its lower AC and HP, the Brown Bear form is about 27% less durable than the Dire Wolf form in this representative case. For those of you who want to get the most out of your Wild Shape forms in terms of damage mitigation, this figure should be fairly significant.
Here is a bonus fun fact:
- It takes a goblin 12.73 rounds on average to kill a Giant Hyena (pretty close to the Dire Wolf, but with a weaker offensive arsenal).
danyc wrote:
danyc wrote:
RCanine wrote:
danyc wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
On the spell front - I don't really see many spells that a moon druid will be interested to use as his default tactics.
Call lightning + flying form is cute, but gimicky.
Stoneskin works, but is expensive.
Barkskin - if you are in a form with really pathetic AC, you can turn it into just bad AC.
Flame Sphere - a nice DPR boost.
Enhance Ability - if you are into grappling or are worried about your Con/Dex saves.
Foresight - always nice, probably better used on the rogue or the fighter though.
Lonstrider and Darkvision - not sure if you continue to benefit from the if you first cast them on yourself and then wildshape.
Conjure ally spells - for a fighting buddy.
Hold Person/Monster and then shifting to rend face on the next round.
Animal Shapes - again seems situational.
Am I missing something?
RPGBG wrote:
I'm working on picking my spells for my 2nd level moon druid now:
For cantrips I took;
Druidcraft; because I want to be druidy.
Thorn Whip: While somewhat redundant (given that I use a scimitar), I wanted something for when I'm not in beast form; and yet, don't want to be in the "thick of things." Thus, this gives me a little range and a tad control (I might take poison spray though because I like the damage, albeit, it being poison, I can see a lot of creatures that might resist poison).
Cure Wounds
Healing Word
Because we need healing, and I'm sure my dm is going to try to beat me down extra, given that I'm going for a next to optimized moon druid build (or at least I'm attempting to).
Jump: Because my STR sucks in human form, and I can so see my dm trying to screw with me because of it (my fluff is a whimpy, and dumb, human, that turns into a ferocious beast. I like the whimpy-ferocious dichtomy).
Speak with Animals; because I want to be druidy.
Faerie Fire: Because its a good spell methinks, and I think it will fit my role well; and I can't find anything better, seemingly. The only thing I am concerned about is it sometimes being redundant with Dire Wolf form and Pack Tactics.
So, what do you think about my selections?
What I'm very curious about is (given that I haven't played in our group yet), I'm wondering what percentage of the session I can (will) be in beast form, which can total 2 hours (as of now). It would seem, perhaps, I could be in beast form for the vast majority of the time? Thus, I am certainly not sold on some of my spell selections (for example, I would prefer not to end my beast form early to heal a party member Does it sound like I'm worrying too much about human form?
Thorn Whip is also a nice cantrip because while it has a nice range (30 ft), it's a MELEE spell attack (not ranged) that you make with it, which means no disadvantage if you cast while enemies are next to you.
With FEATS, what are your thoughts on Weapon Master? Could you apply the 4 free weapon proficiencies to things like Claws, Bite, etc to get ridiculously good wildshape attacks?
JoeyLast wrote:
RPGBG wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
MykeSchultz wrote:
RCanine wrote:
When I say "ridiculous bonuses", that's because I'm building a level 20 druid to fight a bunch of legendary critters, and +6 is much better than the +3 all eight of the CR 5 & 6 forms (Giant Croc, Triceratops, Giant Shark, Mammoth, & all 4 elementals) have. The Elephant (CR 4) has a +2, and it goes down from there, making the +6 even better.
NOTE: I'm figuring their likely prof bonus by taking their total to-hit & subtracting the Str bonus (or Dex, as appropriate) to see what's left.
Though I agree with you, RCanine, that this might have been intentional to avoid making druids impossibly over-powered.
Hey guys... this may or may not be a valid tactic, but I was looking at the Earth Elemental, with its earthglide, and then I was reading the grappling rules, which say you can move with a creature you're grappling at half speed (with no other restrictions listed). And I thought... "What if I grappled an enemy and earthglided into the solid stone below me, bringing the enemy with me, then let go?" I got the idea from an old 90's X-Men comic where Kitty Pride did that to Thor (whom she thought was the Juggernaut at the time). And since you can grapple creatures up to 1 size category bigger than you, you could effectively do that to any creature in the game, right?
If this is a valid tactic, then I think it could up the Earth Elemental's rating considerably. What do you think? I know it's cheesy, but could it work? Would you allow it as a DM?
The same could maybe be done with an Air Elemental grappling an enemy then moving up to drop it, or a Water Elemental/Croc/GiantCroc grappling a foe then moving underwater (both of which seem like very reasonable tactics... in fact crocodiles do that normally in the wild). A Fire Elemental might also do it, then move onto lava... but that's less available usually than stone/water/air.
JoeyLast wrote:
Leugren wrote:
I like the feat list for the most part. It might be worth pointing out that Savage Attacker is literally the only real direct DPR boost feat that exists since none of the other stuff applies, although I agree it's not all that (it really only adds about 1-2ish DPR on most forms). Sentinel is definitely the best of the bunch. You might also want to mention Elemental Adept since it's fairly applicable to the spells you will cast when you cast spells (shame it doesn't apply to forms).
JoeyLast wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Another thought: at 14th level, Moon Druids can cast Alter Self at will. One of the options for Alter Self is sprouting natural weapons, like claws. They are considered Magical, you add your own proficiency bonus to their attacks, and you get a +1 to attack & damage with them (normal damage is 1d6).
So that would get you past any form limitations on to-hit values. Sure, you're only doing 1d6+1+your form's Str mod, but if you've got Sentinel or something else that you just need to hit with, this'd be a great way to go. AND, if your form has a secondary attack triggered off a primary attack, just grow natural weapons to match your primary attack (more goring tusks, bigger teeth, etc), so that you'll be more likely to hit with your new Gore/Bite/Claw/whatever, which will do less damage, but will trigger your secondary attack (stomp, bite, etc).
For example, let's look at the Elephant, normally has a Gore attack at +8 to hit, dealing 3d8+5* damage. However, if you hit with a Gore attack, "Trampling Charge" says that the target has to save or fall prone, which'll give you the extra stomp attack (also +8, 3d10+5 damage)*. If you make yourself some Alter Self tusks for a different Gore attack, you're rolling at +11 to hit on that first gore, doing 1d6+7 damage, but making yourself much more likely to trigger the second attack on your trampling charge.
If, instead, you decide to be a Fire Elemental when you hit lvl 14, you'd normally be swinging Touch attacks at +6, dealing 2d6+3 fire damage, plus igniting the target for 1d10 fire damage each round till it puts itself out. What's important is that the fire elemental very specifically lights ANYTHING THAT TOUCHES IT on fire, so it doesn't matter what kind of attack you make. So let's say you grow some fire claws or fire something-else-that-might-use-Dex... you're now attacking at +8 to hit, doing 1d6+4 damage, but also still igniting.
Either way, you lose overall initial damage, but make yourself much more likely to hit (on avg, looks like 5%-15% more likely). I think it definitely makes it worth looking at Alter Self a little more, and not just passing it off as "although I’m not sure why you’d want it."
GOOFY NOTE 1: you could also use this ability (though I can't imagine why) to become a tiny beast like a rat, raven, or quipper that does normal melee damage. I can't imagine that's great in most situations, but there could be a specific challenge where it might matter that you're the deadliest crow in a murder... or something.
GOOFY NOTE 2: Another option of Alter Self is to grow gills & get a swim speed... so you could become an underwater mammoth or triceratops. Again, not sure why you'd want to do that... except to prove that you CAN... and maybe to scare the crap out of some kuo-toas.
*I think those should be +6, given the Elephant's 22 Str, but maybe that's errata that we'll see later.
While you can use alter self to give yourself a higher accuracy 1d6 weapon, it's going to be far lower DPR than most monsters.
I'm not sure about the idea of doing it with the combo monsters (stomp/pounce). Although alter self lets you grow 'claws, spikes, etc', it specifically upgrades and grants proficiency to your unarmed strike, which is a defined game element. So RAW it might not work. I can see many DM's allowing it, though I don't think it's going to bring the stomp/pounce forms up over the standard multiattack forms in DPR regardless (unless they're rogues and can charge every round, then it might). For the fire elemental, you'd give up your multiattack for sure, and +6 twice is still going to be higher odds to hit once and ignite (also, you can auto-ignite them just by moving so it's kind of silly).
Anyway, I'll test it later and provide some numbers, I have an actual game session to go to now :D
Thorn Whip was mentioned earlier, but I'd like to point out how awesome this cantrip is for battlefield control. We've seen it's a melee spell attack with a 30' range, which is great (no disadvantage). The damage is paltry, there's no question about that. But the true value of Thorn Whip lies in this sentence: "if the creature is Large or smaller, you pull it up to ten feet closer to you." This allows a druid to drag a huge variety of targets all over the battlefield at will without a save! With a bit of tactical movement, you can drag most enemies into range of your fighter, away from your wizard, down from the ceiling, or even to their death (assuming you have a bottomless pit or river of lava between you and them). Or just drag them right to you, where your beast form (and possibly Sentinel feat) can keep them from going anywhere!
Direach wrote:
True, but since Moon druids can wild shape as a bonus action, you can cast, pull target, change shape, attack again if you have a second attack, etc.
Squad wrote:
Sentinel is overrated for wildshapes. You don't have your hands full with weapons/shield so it doesn't provide that much benefit over simply grappling when it comes to stickness. Many forms will also give you better Str for the grapple contest than their slowly-scaling Proficiency bonus to hit improves, which is a bonus over Sentinel.
Grappling also helps the wild shapes' DPR and slightly weak to-hit by granting advantage on attacks if you take the feat, at least as good as having Pack Tactics for any (well, almost any) beast form.
I'm not saying Sentinel is bad, but it does overlap a lot with a free ability so it's not a Gold choice or anything. You can of course grapple *and* take Sentinel if you want to control two enemies at once, but it's not necessary for basic stickiness.
For my 2nd level character that I'm in the process of making, I decided to "can" druidcraft and take guidance instead. I'm going to keep thornstrike for "corner cases" and given that there is really no other cantrip that appeals to me much. So much for being druidy (heck, I might not even take nature now, given we have a ranger).
I'm torn between two feats; Sentinel and Warcaster. I read what everyone said about both and everyone made valid points.
On a side note; I'm starting with a DEX 16, as well. Do you think that is too high? I just thought increasing my chances of going early in the initiative would quite help getting into position early to fulfill my role, and occupy enemies early.
Thus, for my feat I'm leaning towards Sentinel. Being in beast form Large and Sentinel seems like a good idea. I could lockdown enemies just with grapple, but that would only be 1 enemy. Being Large with Sentinel, I can envision locking down 2 or three enemies. But man, advantage for concentration via Warcaster? So, I derno. Who knows how often things will align with Sentinel? But I am guarateed advantage on concentration with Warcaster.
A little off-subject; but I hear Guidance is good, but I really am not familiar with it in practice, insofar as when to use it, and the most optimal time to use it? All I need is a couple gameplay examples is all, just so I can be cognizant.
Another slight dilemma I have is, will my main beast form be dire wold or brown bear? I've been reading the debate on here; the thing is, there are 4 other party members (and maybe a new one next session), and I know 2 of the 4 used ranged attacks (a wizard and a ranger), there is also a rogue, but I'm not quite sure if he or she primarily uses range. In any event, half or more party members are ranged. So in this case, does brown bear seem to be the best default form for me? I read the new numbers comparing the two, and the dire wolf is still solid. But given all the contingencies, I derno. I'm still leaning dire wolf, because I find the BB's AC atrocious. But its damage is sweet (thus, I'm thinking about going into BB form If I need to go into striker mode. But I see myself more as a tank, in general).
Thanks for any help.
MykeSchultz wrote:
RCanine wrote:
MykeSchultz wrote:
RCanine wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
Spells Maintainable by Druids in Wildshape Form
I posted this list to a different thread, but I thought I should reproduce it here. I'll leave it to you to decide which of these spells are actually useful or even usable in Wildshape form.
Guidance [Divination] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute) --------------------------------------------------- Animal Friendship [Enchantment] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 24 hours) --------------------------------------------------- Animal Messenger [Enchantment] (V,S,M; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 24 hours) --------------------------------------------------- Call Lightning [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes) --------------------------------------------------- Confusion [Enchantment] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute) --------------------------------------------------- Antilife Shell [Abjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour) --------------------------------------------------- Conjure Fey [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 hour) --------------------------------------------------- Mirage Arcane [Illusion] (V,S) (casting time: 10 minutes) (duration: 10 days) --------------------------------------------------- Animal Shapes [Transmutation] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 24 hours) --------------------------------------------------- Foresight [Divination] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 8 hours)
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Cantrips:
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Produce Flame [Conjuration] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Resistance [Abjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Shillelagh [Transmutation] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 bonus action) (duration: 1 minute)
Level 1 Spells:
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Charm Person [Enchantment] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Detect Magic [Divination] (V,S; Concentration, Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Detect Poison and Disease [Divination] (V,S,M; Concentration, Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Entangle [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Faerie Fire [Evocation] (V; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Fog Cloud [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Jump [Transmutation] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Longstrider [Transmutation] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Speak with Animals [Divination] (V,S; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Level 2 Spells:
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Barkskin [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Beast Sense [Divination] (S; Concentration, Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Darkvision [Transmutation] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 8 hours)
Enhance Ability [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Flame Blade [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 bonus action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Flaming Sphere [Conjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Gust of Wind [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Heat Metal [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Hold Person [Enchantment] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Locate Object [Divination] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Moonbeam [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Pass without Trace [Abjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Protection from Poison [Abjuration] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Spike Growth [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Level 3 Spells:
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Conjure Animals [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Daylight [Evocation] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Feign Death [Necromancy] (V,S,M; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Meld Into Stone [Transmutation] (V,S; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 8 hours)
Protection from Energy [Abjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Sleet Storm [Conjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Speak with Plants [Transmutation] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Water Breathing [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 24 hours)
Water Walk [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Wind Wall [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Level 4 Spells:
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Conjure Minor Elementals [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 hour)
Conjure Woodland Beings [Conjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Control Water [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Dominate Beast [Enchantment] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Freedom of Movement [Abjuration] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Giant Insect [Transmutation] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Grasping Vine [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 bonus action) (duration: 1 minute)
Hallucinatory Terrain [Illusion] (V,S,M) (casting time: 10 minutes) (duration: 24 hours)
Locate Creature [Divination] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Polymorph [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Stoneskin [Abjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration, Expensive Components) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Wall of Fire [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Level 5 Spells:
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Conjure Elemental [Conjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 hour)
Contagion [Necromancy] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 7 days)
Geas [Enchantment] (V) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 30 days)
Insect Plague [Conjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Planar Binding [Abjuration] (V,S,M; Expensive Components) (casting time: 1 hour) (duration: 24 hours)
Scrying [Divination] (V,S,M; Concentration, Expensive Components) (casting time: 10 minutes) (duration: 10 minutes)
Tree Stride [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Wall of Stone [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Level 6 Spells:
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Find the Path [Divination] (V,S,M; Concentration, Expensive Components) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 day)
Move Earth [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 2 hours)
Sunbeam [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Transport via Plants [Conjuration] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 round)
Wall of Thorns [Conjuration] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Wind Walk [Transmutation] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 8 hours)
Level 7 Spells:
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Regenerate [Transmutation] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 hour)
Reverse Gravity [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Level 8 Spells:
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Antipathy/Sympathy [Enchantment] (V,S,M) (casting time: 1 hour) (duration: 10 days)
Control Weather [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 10 minutes) (duration: 8 hours)
Earthquake [Evocation] (V,S,M; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Tsunami [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 6 rounds)
Level 9 Spells:
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Shapechange [Transmutation] (V,S,M; Concentration, Expensive Components) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Storm of Vengeance [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Leugren wrote:
I still think you need to ephasise the defense (i.e. hit points) of wild shape as much as you do the damage.
2d6+3 is nice, but an extra 30 hit points is massive.
mellored wrote:
And it with not too much extra work we can remove the ones with Material Components & add in the non-maintainable ones to get:
Spells Castable by lv 18+ Druids in Wildshape Form
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Cantrips:
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Druidcraft (VS)
Guidance [Divination] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Poison Spray (VS)
Produce Flame [Conjuration] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
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Level 1 Spells:
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Charm Person [Enchantment] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Cure Wounds (VS)
Detect Magic [Divination] (V,S; Concentration, Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Entangle [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Faerie Fire [Evocation] (V; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Fog Cloud [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Healing Word (V)
Purify Food & Drink (VS)
Speak with Animals [Divination] (V,S; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Thunderwave (VS)
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Level 2 Spells:
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Beast Sense [Divination] (S; Concentration, Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Find Traps (VS)
Lesser Restoration (VS)
Protection from Poison [Abjuration] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
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Level 3 Spells:
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Call Lightning [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Conjure Animals [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Daylight [Evocation] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Dispel Magic (VS)
Meld Into Stone [Transmutation] (V,S; Ritual) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 8 hours)
Plant Growth (VS)
Protection from Energy [Abjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Speak with Plants [Transmutation] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
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Level 4 Spells:
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Conjure Minor Elementals [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 hour)
Dominate Beast [Enchantment] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Giant Insect [Transmutation] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 10 minutes)
Grasping Vine [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 bonus action) (duration: 1 minute)
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Level 5 Spells:
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Antilife Shell [Abjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 hour)
Contagion [Necromancy] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 7 days)
Geas [Enchantment] (V) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 30 days)
Mass Cure Wounds (VS)
Tree Stride [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
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Level 6 Spells:
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Conjure Fey [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 1 hour)
Heal (VS)
Transport via Plants [Conjuration] (V,S) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 round)
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Level 7 Spells:
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Fire Storm (VS)
Mirage Arcane [Illusion] (V,S) (casting time: 10 minutes) (duration: 10 days)
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Level 8 Spells:
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Animal Shapes [Transmutation] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 24 hours)
Tsunami [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 minute) (duration: 6 rounds)
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Level 9 Spells:
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Storm of Vengeance [Conjuration] (V,S; Concentration) (casting time: 1 action) (duration: 1 minute)
Though I still maintain that it's silly that the druid can't provide material components while Wildshaped. I mean, you get to decide which parts of your gear transform with you & which remain, so why can't your spell component pouch stay? And it doesn't even technically say "you cannot cast spells with material components", just "you aren't able to provide material components." Does that mean that you could have someone else hold a spell pouch for you, or that if you find the components hanging around (like the "drop of water and pinch of dust" needed for Control Water... what animal doesn't have the occasional bit of water & dust on their bodies already?)
Once again, the vague wording of 5th ed makes things harder to parse.
JoeyLast wrote:
Good to know. Thanks!
On the one hand, there's a certain old school feel to writing in pencil all over my PHB to mark things on the spell lists (like I did with schools for wizard spells).
On the other hand, it saves so much time to have the lists done. So your efforts are def appreciated.
JoeyLast wrote:
RCanine wrote:
RCanine wrote:
I don't know if it's interesting, but the Hex and Hunters mark work on several attacks per round so could in theory be worth it. I haven't run any numbers on this, it's just an idea. With extra attack, horde breaker, sentinal OA and multi attack, that could potentially be a lot of extra d6s per round.
It does require concentration of course, which might be better spent elsewhere if you have the resources.
JoeyLast wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Earth Elemental gets Siege Monster, Earth Glide, a Burrow speed and Tremorsense. All of those can be massively useful, and yet you say it lacks utility. IMHO opinion, even if you rate a form low and think its powers are situational (or you're focused only on its combat ability), you should still elaborate on these kinds of abilities. Knock down a wall hardly covers the utility of Siege Monster. Get creative man!
I think this thread is undervaluing fighting styles. Take two levels of fighter for action surge, second wind and fighting style defense. Now when you shift into a bear have some plate barding that your party helps you don after you shift for a respectable 19 AC.
dwgautier wrote:
Was still waking up on the metal armor part! If you can craft some insect hide or dragon hide plate it could still work nicely. A bag of holding could take care of the cumbersum part, or just strap it to your back with a pair of boots of striding and springing, or just be a dwarf druid
I disagree with your assumption that CR<1 forms arent't mentioning. For one CR0 forms blend in more, making them perfect for scouting. For two, I fail to anything that can burrow other than the elementals in the CR1+ range. Burrowing is simply put, awesome, as it allows hit-and-run casting that not many can counter.
A couple of observations:
* I'm not sure but I infer that you're thinking a Druid would not need to make a Concentration check for taking damage in Wild Shape. Is that so, and if so what is your basis for thinking so? Seems to me that even in Wild Shape taking damage will trigger the checks, which makes concentration spells really tricky to combine with the usual Moon Druid damage-sponge tactics.
* I would not let a Barbarian- or Monk-multiclassed Druid apply Unarmored Defense to any wild shape form with Natural Armor. (That's most of them.) I think that's a pretty clear application of the rules, though I could see a few DMs allowing themselves to be talked into an exception. Assuming Natural Armor invalidates Unarmored Defense, then you're left with a fairly small list of good beast forms, and the utility of those multiclasses goes down quite a bit.
Concentration is never mentioned in the Wildshape entry. The duration listing says "for a number of hours equal to half your druid level." That's why nobody's mentioned Concentration checks while taking damage. Unfortunately, you DO need to make Concentration checks while using the 9th level druid spell Shapechange, as I found out in a recent fight against the Tarrasque while my druid was shapechanged into a Dragon Turtle, which made that spell much less awesome than I felt it should be. But no, wildshape has a set time duration, so concentration is not an issue.
I agree with your unarmored vs natural armor assessment.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Yunru wrote:
The druid has quite a few concentration spells it could cast, transform and then burrow away, but I agree, Beast Spells is a game-changer.
RCanine wrote:
Simply choose beasts with high Con saves.
But yes, they have trouble with it. Though moon druids arn't exactly weak.
mellored wrote:
Yunru wrote:
I'm not a big fan of concentration spells on any front-line characters. The save DC is just too high at higher levels, even with advantage from War Caster.
Let's assume I'm a level 6 Druid in Polar Bear form. I'm concentrating on some spell. Let's also assume I took a level of Fighter or Sorcerer at level 1 to get proficiency on the con save. So my save is going to be made at a +8 bonus (3 proficiency + 5 con mod) . I also have War Caster so it's made with advantage.
Now a CR 6 Chimera comes along and breathes fire on me. It's a DC 15 dex save which I'm probably going to fail with my +0 Dexterity save (RAW it's unclear if I inherit the savin throw of the creature, which is ability score + proficiency, or if I just inherit their ability score and no proficiency). So my save is either +0 or +3; either way, I probably won't make the save.
So now I take 7d8 fire damage; 31 if we use the preset value. Half of that is 15, so now I need to make a DC 25 saving throw or lose concentration. That means I need to roll a 17 or higher, and I have two rolls. That's about a 25% chance of making the save or I lose concentration. And that's just a level 6 example! When damage really starts taking off, you just can't hold the spell anymore.
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
-ktkenshinx- wrote:
RCanine wrote:
Lharn wrote:
Keendk wrote:
@keendk and leugren: Whoa the DC is 10 or half the damage dealt; that makes concentration a lot better in a lot of different forms, at least through the early teens. Sorry for missing both that and the Polar Bear con bonus; this is why you don't try and post RAW stuff from memory.
So Polar Bear save bonus is +6, made with advantage. Your ~50% cutoff point is DC 21, or 42 points of damage. That is to say, you have a ~50% chance of succeeding a DC 20 concentration check as a Level 6 Polar Bear.
As a math note here, I have seen a lot of wrong probabilities for calculating this chance. Here's how you find it:
- Subtract your save bonus from the DC. That's the minimum die roll you need to succeed.
- Then subtract 1 from that minimum number, and divide the result by 20. This gets you the probability of NOT succeeding at the roll.
- Repeat step 2
- Multiply steps 1 and 2 together. This is the probability of failing at BOTH rolls.
- Subtract the result from 1. That is chance that you succeed with AT LEAST one roll.
Let's do it with Polar Bear!
Save Bonus: +6
Save DC: 21
Minimum die roll needed: 15 (20 - 6)
Probability of failure on first roll: 70% (14/20)
Probability of failure on second roll: 70% (14/20)
Probability of failure on BOTH rolls: 49% (70% * 70%)
Probability of success ("not" failure) on AT LEAST one roll: 51% (1 - 30%*30%)
For the formula inclined, here is the formula:
Probability of success = 1 - ((((SaveDC - SaveBonus) - 1) / 20) ^2)
We can run that with the Chimera breath weapon as well"
Save Bonus: +6
Save DC: 15
Formula: 1 - ((((15- 6) - 1) / 20) ^2)
Probability: 84%
Pretty good for just a bear!
At that point, it just becomes a matter of seeing what the average Constitution saves are, the average damages are of monsters at each level, and seeing if the probability of success roughly scales with damage. If not, concentration has a dropoff point. If it does, concentration is good at all levels.
Concentration spells are a mixed bag. They're especially handy if you can then wildshape into something small & able to burrow/fly away/hide. But for wading into combat, you might be taking your chances.
In the L20 fight against the Tarrasque, my moon druid had Shapechanged (L9 Conc spell) into a Dragon Turtle. I had crazy Con and Warcaster feat, but when he unleashed his 4 attacks on me, each doing 30-40 pts of damage, one of my saves was bound to fail, and it did, dropping me back to human form. I feel like that's a fairly extreme example, though, and not at all typical of your normal adventuring career.
Leugren wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
At early levels, you definitely want Warcaster over Resilient. The question is, when should you pick up Resilient on top of Warcaster?
Assume you are using the 16 con beast (Polar Bear!) and you get hit with a Wizards' Fireball at level 8 - my DMs love throwing Fireballs around starting at level 7 or so. Then let's assume you fail the dex save and take the full 8d6 damage, which is roughly 28 damage or a DC 14 Concentration Save. The warcaster, +3 save with advantage, has a 75% chance of making that save at level 8. The resilient guy , +6 save no advantage, has a 65% chance of making it. And the caster with both, +6 advantage, will have an 88% chance of making the save. So here, Warcaster wins out.
Let's go up to level 10 and keep the Polar Bear for now. This time, you get hit with Cone of Cold for 8d8 damage, failing the dex save. That's an average 36 damage, or a DC 18 Concentration save. Warcaster man is still rocking a +3 save with advantage, but now he has only a 51% chance to make that save with two rolls. Resilient guy now has a +7 save, 3 con + 4 proficiency, which means he has a 50% chance of saving. Got both? Now you are back up to 75%.
In this last case, Resilient and Warcaster give you roughly the same chance of succeeding on the roll. So it's probably not until around level 10 that you really start needing Resilient on top of Warcaster. Before then, Warcaster is probably the way to go, at least if your focus is just on maintaining concentration.
JoeyLast wrote:
Tarrasque is immune to fire, so I avoided the fiery critters. I was actually IN its belly when I went D.Turtle, which forced him to spit me out. Though now that I've had more time with the monster manual, I see that Copper Dragon would've been the best choice while in the belly... I'd be immune to acid damage, have blindsight (cancelling the blindness), and be able to hurt him while he couldn't hit me. Oh well, hindsight and all...
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Leugren wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
Leugren wrote:
-ktkenshinx- wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Leugren wrote:
mellored wrote:
-ktkenshinx- wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Leugren wrote:
JoeyLast wrote:
Leugren wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
If you take 2 lvls of fighter or 3 lvls of Barbarian (bear totem) or the like, and you will probably do so anyways,
the discussion between war caster and resilient is moot.
DSZ wrote:
Leugren wrote:
DSZ wrote:
The only physical stats you will have to invest in are dex and con and you would probably do so anyways.
I know I would invest in dex for AC and for the dex save while not being wild shaped and for initiative.
And I would invest in con anyways for even more HP and for the con save while not being wild shaped.
And lvl 2 fighter does not hurt your spell progression much and lets you attack a second time once per short rest.
While it might be interesting to get an increased crit range at lvl 3 I do not know if it is worth the trade off.
Staying lvl 2 fighter, you would not give up Beast Spell. Hence, the only real trade off would be Archdruid.
Additionally, I would like to point out that Beast Spell and Archdruid would only be relevant for high lvl play which will probably not occur very often.
However, YMMV
DSZ wrote:
This drawback will diminish over time me thinks.
So... back for a reality check on some of these posts/ideas.
Fighter 2/Druid 18 (for save proficiency) is almost unplayable unless your game starts at 3+, and even then it's pretty non-optimal. You're mostly delaying good features for little gain.
Barbarian 3/Druid 17 (for the same reason) is also dumb, because teching for concentration with barbarian is... um, special. Go read rage. On the other hand...
Druid 2/Barbarian3/X is the absolute best damage (or tanking) you will possibly do as a moon druid, but you definitely want to go druid first. This is not a build that cares about concentrating on spells (it can't), it's a build that wants to abuse the spike in early combat performance Moon Druids have from their CR 1 forms and abusing it for quite a while. (For the record, X is then more druid up to at least 10 for elemental, and then either yet more druid, barbarian, or possibly some fighter).
And finally... Druid 20 if you're doing hybrid, whether modal (ie some combats as caster, some as beast) or simultaneous (with concentration). Seriously, no other class does anything but dilute your most important features (caster progression, flying and elemental forms, Beast Spell and Archdruid). If you're doing concentration, regardless of whether Resilient or War Caster is better, you take both. Order to personal taste.
Do you think a moon druid that combines the sentinel feat with the flaming sphere spell (thus, creating a Catch-22) is an effective strategy, or given that flaming sphere is a concentration spell you might lose concentration too early? Note: My moon druid is only level 3, Sentinel is my only feat.
Also, I plan to be a balanced moon druid, as in, cast spells in human form, transform into beast, then melee, thus, firstly, is that a problematic idea? Secondly, if I do that, should pick up war caster at 4th, or go with a Wisdom stat bump?
danyc wrote:
MykeSchultz wrote:
Leugren wrote:
danyc wrote:
Rancid_Rogue wrote:
In my grappler's guide on this forum, I'm actually a pretty big fan of Druid/Barbarian if grappling is your thing. At level 3, with Druid 2/Barbarian 1, you are a size large, 19 strength creature with advantage on your strength checks, taking half damage from most weapons, and capable of making two attacks (or grapples/shoves) every turn. The earliest you could do that in another class would be something like Wizard 3/Fighter 5, with Wizard giving you Enlarge to increase your size category, and Fighter 5 giving you the Extra Attack. But even then, Enlarge would require concentration. Barbarian 5 gets you two attacks, advantage on checks, and rage resistances, but you still wouldn't be size large.
Of course, this build really drop off around level 9-10, but for early-early/mid game adventures, it's perfectly viable and actually quite strong.
MykeSchultz wrote:
First, I would never go rapier fighting but bow. Fighting style gets you another +2 for ranged attacks.
Second, you will get another round of attacks with action surge per short rest, which means 4 attacks being a brown bear.
Third, the absolute dmge monster will be druid7 fighter 2 monk 2.
Polymorph into a Giant Ape. As Mike Mearls said you take the higher of the two: the beast's or your proficiency. The strength bonus of the Ape is + 6 this results into:
2 x Att: +10 for 3D10+6 dmge each (basic attack of the Ape)
2 x Att: +10 for 3D10+ 6 dmge each (action surge)
2 x Att: +10 for 3D10+ 6 dmge each (flurry)
AC Enemy: 14+lvl/3= 18 (assuning a lvl 12 enemy for the sake of simplicity), hence probability to hit 0.65, meaning 0.6 standard hit and 0.05 for crit.
0.6 *6*(16.5+6)+0.05*6(33+6)=81+11.7=92.7
Additionally you will have the AC of the monk 10 + 3 (dex) + 4 (wis) so an AC of 17, prof. in con saves and war caster, me would think.
The HP of the enemy will be 10+6*lvl= 10+72=82...ups.
So this will net in 1.13 kpr.
(assumptions see the dpr king thread)
This is what I would call an reality check. Not some statement which is not backed up by anything.
If I made a mistake in my calculations, point it out and I will conced my mistake(s).
But, and this goes especially to danyc, reality checks IMHO have to be backed up by math and logic:-)
DSZ wrote:
-ktkenshinx- wrote:
-ktkenshinx- wrote:
RCanine wrote:
A monster can choose from its own actions or general actions, but Multiattack itself is a specific action that usually specifies what you do, ie on the bear:
Multiattack. The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws.
Similarly, the substitution for Grapple/Shove is something written into those abililties, noting that you can use your Attack action to do those special attacks instead of a normal weapon attack. They also specify that if you can make multiple attacks with the Attack action, you interchange them with the special options. The critical thing is that an attack (lowercase) is different than the Attack action. The former is any effect in the game that makes an attack roll, the latter a specific action from the list of actions. Monsters CAN take the Attack action (since they can use general actions) and therefore make a Grapple or Shove, but they won't get multiple attacks when they do it, since they don't have the Extra Attacks feature players do. If they want their multiple attacks, they have to use a special monster action, which specifies the kind of attacks they take.
Edit to add: What you -can- do as a druid, if you take 5 levels of a combat class to pick up Extra Attack, is replace a monster's usual use of Multiattack by using the general Attack action (which benefits from Extra Attack), and then use their strongest attack twice instead of their normal sequence. This means that druids that multiclass this far may prioritize different forms. Also, while Extra Attack and Flurry of Blows don't work with Multiattack, the Barbarian's Frenzy does, which is why I comment on it being the strongest option.
danyc wrote:
-ktkenshinx- wrote:
Gruff_Ironfist wrote:
I think you may have under rated this.
Giant Constrictor Snake
The Druid in our party has been using it because it has the most hit points and if it hits someone they are restrained. Can be difficult to get in charge attacks with the rhino and elk. I would bump it to black if not blue.
Zardnaar wrote:
The fact that all the animal forms Auto Restrain when they grapple is also a pretty big deal, so any grappling beasts are worth looking into (don't forget the croc & giant croc). Having just run fights with a 20th level moon druid against legedary foes (Tarrasque, Death Tyrant, & Ancient Red Dracolich), though, I can tell you that grappling the tarrasque didn't help much at all, though. Against non-tarrasque enemies, though, I'd imagine it's a quite handy power.
Against the other foes, the fact that all the elemental forms were immune to half the death tyrant's eye rays was awesome. And the Sentinel feat meant that while my fire elemental couldn't hurt the red, he could very easily lock him down (while being immune to the fire damage of his breath & lair).
Plesiosaurus: Your go-to aquatic form.
IxidorRS wrote:
RCanine wrote:
whitishknight wrote:
ZyloSnarf wrote:
First off, I'd like to thank the OP for starting this thread and all the work put in so far.
Sorry if some, or all, of these ideas/questions sound really bad - but I thought I'd voice them anyhow.
Some of these related to shapeshifted druids used as mounts. 
I mean - what's more awesome than a warrior riding around a massive bear/lion/wolf/lizard/ThemeYouWant? :D
First off - Elementals. Can any of these be used as a mount by other characters? Or are their forms fixed as the pictures in the MM?
My main idea here was to use the earth elemental form in a bear like shape (swinging it's "paws" just like a bear would). But if the elemental form is predefined, that's not going to happen.
Mounted Combatant
"You are a dangerous foe to face while mounted" (as in the Druid being mounted by the character on top, so both parts would most likely be using this feat)
The first bullet point is the one we're interested in, and "your mount" would refer to you.
It's just too funny not to allow, right?
Weapon Master
I'd like to point out the "Primal Strike" feature which states "your attacks in beast form" to bunch together each and every shape we can take.
Couldn't we use the term "beast form weapons" in the same manner (or "beast form melee weapon / beast form ranged weapon") to gain proficiency with most of them?
(or as mentioned earlier, single out common attacks like claw, bite, etc, but there are so many and we only get to pick 4)
We're not going to use this feat for anything else (str or dex is mostly wasted, as is other weapons to select)
Azrothan wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Azrothan wrote:
danyc wrote:
Kalani wrote:
danyc wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Yunru wrote:
danyc wrote:
Azrothan wrote:
Azrothan wrote:
danyc wrote:
Moon Druid will not be out damaging a melee based fighter any time soon except maybe at level 2. If you are proficinet in armor types it seems reasonable to allow you to be proficient in barding.
RCanine wrote:
Divljak wrote:
The other source of confusion here is that while the NPCs listed in the MM are in many cases similar to PCs, they're not using PC rules. The Berserker uses the Barbarian's Reckless Attack ability (renamed to just Reckless), but it doesn't have Rage. The Veteran is designed like a dual wield fighter, but it doesn't have Action Surge or any Battlemaster, Champion or EK fetures. It's not using the extra attack feature anywhere on its statblock either - its simply using the monster Multiattack action with its own specific rules (that happen to mimic a potential PC build).
But there's no reason to use this to reverse engineer monsters to decide that they're dual wielding or not. Monsters get their # of attacks assigned arbitrarily. There are creatures with claws that get one claw attack, and some that get two. The Octopi (and Grell) have a ton of limbs but use them all in one big 'tentacles' attack, while the Roper gets four tendril attacks. Seriously, there's no logic to it, other than what the CR and design of the creature requires.
I know this was already discussed to death, but I thought I would add some more perspective based on my in-game experiences as a Moon Druid (just 50 XP and I'll hit level 4).
The dire wolf has a slight edge in mobility (assuming you don't need to do any climbing)when compared to the brown bear. The extra ten feet of movement as the pup is nice, and with the at-will prone, risking opportunity attacks to achieve better positioning for the next round is much less of a gamble, and more often than not has worked out in my favor. Additionally, the higher AC and slightly higher HP have been useful indoors where I have been better able to insert myself between enemies and the squishies of the party when needed. I tend to last longer as the wolf than the bear, frequently giving me an extra round of good damage and proning.
Additionally, the at-will prone has been a boon with a Barbarian in the party. Not needing to use reckless attack has really seemed to increase the barb's tanking capabilites as well - fewer hits are landing against her.
I like the bear too mind you, and there have been times where just dishing out more damage has been effective and fun. In general though, I find the wolf more effective as it allows me to be more versatile, not to mention tanky.
1eejit wrote:
There's also the matter of whether or not the wolf's bite counts as attacking with an unarmed strike or with an improvised weapon in the first place. Overall, that sounds like a lot to pitch to get this to work.
ShinQuickMan wrote:
Devilbass wrote:
Yunru wrote:
Ok, quick question: I Cast Mage Hand, then Wildshape into a tiny beast (let's say a rat), and then using Mage Hand lift a basket that I'm standing in. Am I now flying at a rate of 30, using my action, assuming I weigh less than 10lbs?
(Edit Technically, the reason I'm asking is a friend of mine is playing an Arcane Trickster, and is considering multiclassing into Druid. He came up with the idea, and I couldn't immediately say that it was legal or illegal. So I came to the best people for the job.
Project_Vile wrote:
Does anyone know what ocean in Faerun has a Giant Octopus? I need to have seen one in order to transform into it and I'm currently in Phlan... there weren't any in the lake.
Pretty sure most druids watch David Attenborough nature documentaries.
Yunru wrote:
SterlingRat wrote:
Eggnogfool wrote:
@RCanine
By any chance are you planning on updating this guide with the new races and spells from EE (or any spells for that matter)?
Spells would be the nice.
The main problem with the Wild Shape of the druid, at least for me, is this:
At some point, if you wanted to say turn into a tiger at 20th level for combat, it's not a viable option. Since the animals are capped at CR6, the biggest baddest thing there is is the mammoth. So, does that mean if you have multiple moon druids in your group at that level you are going to have multiple mammoths running around? What happens if you are underground and there isn't that much room to begin with?
Updates!
- Added Elemental Evil and Unearthed Arcana races
- Mentioned the Half-Dragon Template that was the only thing MM gave us
- Added a nota bene for D&D AL players about form limitations
I tried to limit my editorializing on the AL stuff, despite my obvious opinion on it. This is the place to discuss it. Please for the love of Ilmater don't bring it here.
RCanine wrote:
Jordan175 wrote:
Move speed doesn't transfer.
Though it seems like talons would. Though that's not really a benifit, since there's little reason for a bear to use it's action for 1d4+3 damage.
Regarding Aarakocra: You should mention the drawbacks of flight - in particular, the risks of Sleep, Prone, and any effect which reduces your speed to 0 (eg. grapple). All of these scenarios would cause an aarakocra to immediately fall (taking xd6 falling damage in the process), with potentially lethal repercussions.
There are several reasons why druids don't get flying forms until 8th level (and the power of flight is only one of them).
Well, risk of death from falling for one (I thought I implied as much)
Kalani wrote:
Hey.
My GM allowed me to create an own CR3 and later CR4..6 beasts i can use, since i would prefer to use one form for fighting.
Currently i use an cave bear (polar bear) as CR2 form, and i would like to stay with bears in higher CRs also.
Using the rules in the DMG page 273, anyone has good ideas for rule conform CR 3...6 bear forms ?
~~At level 3, you gain the ability to take a stronger Wild Shape form than other druids
isnt it level 2?????
RCanine wrote:
On a more playful note, everyone should try to be Half-Dragon versions of low-CR creatures (according to the DMG table, a Half-Dragon's breath increases a CR 1 creature to CR 2, and a CR 0-1/2 creature to CR 1). Hooray Half-Dragon Giant Goats! :P
It's ultra-cheesy, and it might require some specific skills from party members, but you could use Wild Shape to rack up a fortune at early levels. All you need to do is transform into a poisonous creature, then have someone trained in poisoner's kit or Nature extract it from you. Sell for mad profit. Note that you might also need to get incapacitated for this to work as well.
An even easier option is to transform into a Giant Spider, which lets you make (unworked) silk by the truckloads. Commercialism can't be any easier than that.
Updated a typo in the summary.