Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 J.-Eric Sep 28, 2014 0:25:31	I'm not sure if it just me but wizards seem very mediocre and bland now. Comparing them to warlocks or sorcerers I'm not sure why someone would choose a wizard over either of the other two arcane classes. Sorcerers and warlocks are much more versatile with a better character options. Wizards get the lackluster school specializations, and evocation has to be the worst of the bunch. I have had a lot of fun it the past playing wizards in both Pathfinder and 3.5 but they are just, meh. I know everyone is going to say that the wizards big advantage is that they can have more prepared spells. That mey be true but they can not cast anymore then anyone else, fewer in fact if you take into account some of the warlock's evocations and sorcerers use of sorcery points. If I am wrong help me see the light, I want to see a benefit of a wizard.  v
#2 Novacat Sep 28, 2014 0:27:47	Wizards have always been the "white bread" spellcasters in D&D. Just like Sorcerers have always been the "cool kid" and warlocks have always had the best origin stories.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Sep 28, 2014 0:37:12	The thing about being a wizard, rather than a sorcer or warlock, is that you can pick up a wider variety of spells.   Take my wife's necromancer as an example: At 3rd level, she has 3 cantrips, 8 known 1st level spells, and 2 known 2nd level spells - she can prepare 6 spells of those 10 she knows that aren't cantrips, and the other 4 are rituals.   She has access to every single one of her spells every day, even though she knows twice as many spells as a sorcerer or warlock would.   Also, while they may not be terribly flavorful, some of the benefits of various wizard traditions are extremely useful (necromancer, abjurer, and conjurer being the ones I find the most potent).   The class seems bland because everything about it is all focused on a singular thing (spells).   Also worth noting, the difference in spell lists for the classes - only the wizard class has that particular list, and it is a bit longer than the other spell lists.
#4 MechaPilot Sep 28, 2014 0:42:33	Novacat wrote:
#5 Ashrym Sep 28, 2014 0:55:36	Ritual casting, arcane renewal, and spell mastery later on are good reasons for a wizard.  Some nice features in the traditions too.
#6 Mad_Jack Sep 28, 2014 0:56:29	Warlocks and sorcerers get their utility in their class features, whereas wizards get their utility in their spells... Warlocks, despite anything else they get, are primarily ranged blasters. Sorcerers can either be blasters or focus on one other aspect of magic - being a summoner, an enchanter, etc. And the two classes are going to be very good at what they do.    But the wizard has the option of being everything that those two are, and then doing other things better on top of that. Rather than being limited to choosing certain class features that lock in who and what the character will be, wizards get to choose who they'll be on a daily basis.
#7 Psikerlord Sep 28, 2014 1:13:26	Yep, wizards have strong school abilities, are the most versatile class in the game.... and multi class fighter or cleric extremely well. Sorceror and warlock are specialists.
#8 Llenlleawg Sep 28, 2014 1:25:18	What was it that you think made wizards "a lot of fun" in 3.5? That is, how were they not also "vanilla"? Consider this especially from the point of view of only the 3.5 PHB (no splat books), which is the only fair way to make the comparison. Help me see what about 3.5 wizards you found to be fun but is lacking in the 5e wizard.   The main thing about wizards is supposed to be, and in fact is, their flexibility. This is not simply a feature of having more prepared spells, although that's part of it. The main point of flexibility is that a good, well-researched wizard (i.e. one that has an ample spellbook) can prepare quite different sets of spells each day, suitable to the changing set of needs as he sees them. Warlocks and Sorcerers are set in thier ways, until they gain a level. The latter is fine if you basically have a fairly constant strategy that you want to use more or less in every situation. That is, if there is a small set of spells you really like to use, maybe sorcerer is a better fit. However, if you like to have a variety of spells, both utility and combat, and you don't want to have to make zero-sum choices (i.e. if I have Protection from Evil and Good then I can't have Feather Fall), then a wizard is a better option.   Also, I hardly see the specializations as lackluster. They certainly make the gameplay of the various specialists a little different. Still, by design the wizard is supposed to be fundamentally a generalist, the guy with just the right tool for every situation, if you give him time to prepare. Specializations are just meant to give a little bit of flavor, favoring certain kinds of magic without in any way preventing or eliminating the other schools.   So, the main wizard benefit: variety/flexibility.
#9 EzechielDantan Sep 28, 2014 2:21:12	Wizards have always been bland, in previous editions they were clearly the better choice over a sorcerer tough, now the choice is a bit harder since specialists dont get their bonus spells anymore high intelligence doesnt give bonus spells. High intelligence doesn't make them master of skill anymore but rather specialized in intelligence based skills (which I consider a huge improvement, to the game not the wizard).    I do consider versatility and ritual spells to be strong points of the wizard though and the school traditions are fairly well done though not all equally powerful, blasting spells can be fairly effective at the moment you get them and especially at low levels their spells are quite a bit more effective, ritual magic basically gives wizards more abilities (you simply need to have them in your spellbook and wont cost you slots to use), they can also be decent in combat in the lower levels and casting is less easily interupted (though buffing is considerably toned down). Cantrips are a good way to save magical spells with decent effects, all spells have the same DC making your lower level spells still valuable. it is also much easier to cast in armor and bearing a shield if you so desire.   I think mediocre is just how you experience it since they fell down fom their high and mighty position to a slightly lower one that is competed a bit more fiercly by other classes.   Not sure any of this convinces you but if not just try a sorcerer, druid or warlock for a similar experience or mix them up a bit by multi-classing
#10 FallingIcicle Sep 28, 2014 2:38:25	I don't think wizards are bland at all. On the contrary, I think the 5e wizard is the least bland of any edition, thanks to the specialty school features.
#11 spanglemaker Sep 28, 2014 3:43:30	I pretty much agree with most of what the others have said- Through my years of D&D, the Wizard was my favourite, after the Elf. 3/3.5 Made the Wizard interesting whilst keeping the limits of Specialising as an Illusionist or Evoker. The Sorcerer was pretty funky, but still lacked something and would end up using the crossbow. One of the things I hated about Old School, once you've cast your spells- you either hide, stand around and look pretty or hope you dont fumble with a ranged weapon. Which was pretty much how it was until the upper levels of wizardry, where the wizards years of viewing meatshields ie party members exception being a friendly cleric stained their attitude as now they are more bumpy and partywise could outshine the poor meatshield.   4th for all its flaws, attempted to make everyone have a spot in the limelight- it made warlocks fun and flitty and gave some cool flavours to the game but sleep being really a slow spell and plenty of other things including Necromancy and Nethermancy (i'm cringing)- NB this is just my personal take   Now we have this beautiful 5e which is awesome- Wizards are amazing generally and fantastic in their specialisation- Abjurers are great at protection, Evokers can control that fireball or other AoE blast without endangering the party. Diviners know stuff which is useful like that monster didn't actually roll a natural 20- they rolled a 12- I read it in my tea leaves during my hours teabreak whilst hanging out with my chainsmoking warlock- I love my Arcane Recovery it givesall wizards a real edge-   Warlocks are fun to play,  are limited to need more rest breaks to recharge themselves potentially they can cast more than others but it is situational- if a Level 5 Wizard and a level 5 Warlock were duelling with magic- the Warlocks 3 Cantrips, 6 spells known (two 3rd level possibly) with two 3rd level spell slots, plus Pact Boon, Pact features and 3 Invocations (Warlock duellist would probably have Agonising Blast, Repelling Blast and Devils Sight invocations) versus the level 5 Wizard with 4 Cantrips, 14 spells + any extras aquired in the spell book, four 1st Level, three 2nd Level and two 3rd level spells.   Warlock has 2 EB beams doing 1d10+Cha modifier force damage, probably after casting Darkness its concentration so no Hex- Wizard could use: Abjurer or Diviner would probably be the best duellist at this level   Sorcerers can blast things adding a bit of chaos, their magic in 5e is more destructive their access to utlities is more restricted, they make ok low level enchanters but even a necromancer could be a better enchanter than a Sorcerer. They have great FX from their origin, have the most natural magic as detailed in their cantrips, but have limited spells known.   A Wizard is not limited by the spells they gain as they level- they are limited by the availability of other wizards, spell books and scrolls. So in theory a level 3 Wizard could have 8 first level spells and two 2nd Level Spells of THEIR choice- plus more spells (as long as they spend the gold and time to copy) from another spellbook or a Wizard scroll- Scrolls are not used up during the process of learning, so it could be borrowed or 'aquired by your rogue'. Now a tomelock can cast any ritual from any class and can copy them but you are a Wizard and you probably have more contacts, access to magical schools and more- whereas the Warlock may have to do favours or worse just to get hold of a ritual.   Really backstory is your own artifice- you can create cardboard cutout Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers. You can also create fantastic backgrounds for Wizards, Warlocks and Sorcerers.   A Wizards strength is their choice of spells which is the widest of the arcane classes, they have more chance of access to spells from Wizards, Academies and Magic Schools- it will cost them gold, time and probably a fantastic hook for your parties next adventure (Wizard Smith at level 3 wants to learn Web or two 1st Level Utility Spells, Headmistress Weatherwax of the Wayfinders School of Magic and deportment for Young Gentlemen, will give you access to the spell or spells if you do her a small favour and ....'insert quest'. All party gets treasure and the wizard gets more spells.
#12 DLfan Sep 28, 2014 6:45:12	I agree with the OP. Wizards might be better at higher levels but at low levels they seem very weak.  Even the cleric out damages then and old stanbys such as sleep are not effective anymore due to monster hit point bloat.  Cleric spells of equal level do far more damage than similar mage spells. (magic missile is 3D4+3 vs 3D10 or 4D6 plus advantage) Spirit Guardians is a 3rd level cleric spell that you can concentrate on and go room to room killing monsters.  The cantrips are bad since you cannot add ability mod to damage.  Maybe it changes for wizards around 5th level but low level wizards just suck.
#13 Yunru Sep 28, 2014 7:11:25	DLfan wrote:
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	DLfan wrote:
#15 Caolin Sep 28, 2014 12:37:43	I played a 1st level wizard in a party with a sorcerer and a warlock this weekend and my character outperformed them both.  You just can't focus on pure damage potential.  I charmed a bug bear and had him cause much choas.  My detect magic allowed us to discover many secrets that the warlock nor the sorcerer were able to glean.  My magic missle was able to hit several runes simultaniously blinding multiple zombies.  Finally my shiled spell saved the warlock from getting killed.  It's all about how you role play them and how creative you are with your spells.  To me, warlock and sorcerers are boring since they are designed to be damage factories and where's the fun in that in a role playing game?
(Reply to #15) Jell_Moo	Caolin wrote:
#17 Caolin Sep 28, 2014 14:16:53	Jell_Moo wrote:
#18 Huntsman57 Sep 28, 2014 15:08:53	J.-Eric wrote:
#19 Psikerlord Sep 28, 2014 15:06:44	Caolin wrote:
(Reply to #18) Judou_Hanabi	Huntsman57 wrote:
#21 Awesomologist Sep 28, 2014 18:43:29	A lot of what you experience with a class is shaped by the table you play them at, by your knowledge of the rules, and the level of your character. I remember playing 2e wizards and hating them at low levels. I also remember at later level where it felt like everyone else at the table basically acted as my meatshields for the round or two I needed to get off whatever big spell would make an encounter (combat or social) a moot point. I only dabbled in 3.Xe, and even then mostly via the game itterations like Neverwitner Nights. Again their power only came at later levels with lots of napping to regain spells.   I loved 4e, partially because it gave Wizards at-will powers, but mostly because at later levels they weren't the best character at the table. Each class was great at later levels. 5e appears to have held onto that, at least by what I've read as my experience has been limited so far.   I guess what I'm saying to the OP is to stick it out and see how things go at your table. Talk to your DM if you're not having fun and maybe he/she will be willing to help (they could be making mistakes too, not uncommon as DM's learn a new edition). If you're still bored after a few levels you can always ask to reroll your character, maybe try out the sorcerer/warlock (or the Cleric which seems really powerful this edition).
#22 Sorxores Sep 28, 2014 19:36:09	J.-Eric wrote:
#23 Ashrym Sep 28, 2014 22:18:00	You are mistaken. Overchannel only works on 5th level spells or lower. There is no overchannelling meteor swarm. It's not just twin spell either; quicken and heighten have their good uses too and empower is stackable. Careful also works on more than evocations, unlike sculpt. Twin works on more than enchantments. A sorcerer can have careful spell for all schools and twin spell for all schools on the same character where a wizard is either an evoker or an enchanter but not both. Bards and warlocks aren't far behind in spells known compared to spells prepared and a person only needs to use so many attack spells. Wizards definitely have more staying power than sorcerers in days of attrition with arcane renewal, ritual casting, spell mastery, and signature spells but sorcerers do get more out of their spells. Warlocks have better at-will ability than wizards. Bards can do things on a regular basis that wizards can only wish for. I understand your opinion, but I don't see a clear superiority, and only different strengths and weaknesses.
#24 MikeN Sep 28, 2014 22:46:32	Just for a one-off where we built characters to test out 5th edition (rolling, so we got some pretty nice scores), I built a Forest Gnome Wizard modelled after Charles Darwin...   I took the Sailor background (tweaked only a bit) and play him as someone totally devoted to exploring and finding new animals.  My familiar is a finch (using hawk stats).  Flavor is what you make of it, after all...   Mechanically I have one of the better choices, and it's a bit steampunk magitek rather than victorian science, but a fun character to play and just "writes itself" as they say.  If I get to play it any more, I'm going with Divination. _______   Do something that looks interesting, and use the Wizard (or whatever) chassis for whatever you want it to do.
#25 2Chlorobutanal Sep 28, 2014 22:51:34	If you like the conjuration, necromancy, abjuration, or divination "wizard" spells from previous editions, especially the higher-level ones, Wizards may be the only class that retains them on their spell list.  Sorcerers have a very limited sub-list of the "wizard" spells, although it is supplemented by some "cleric" or "druid" spells as well.  They can't conjure monsters, though, or perform powerful divinations.  Warlocks have an even more limited spell list than sorcerers.  Beyond the most expansive spell list, Wizards are the only "arcane" casters that can learn their entire spell list, theoretically.   As far as "flavor" goes, I find the 8 schools of magic to be very interesting, both mechanically and thematically:   Conjurers can, naturally, conjure things, as well as teleport a short range, recharging whenever they cast a spell.  They also become "immune" to most concentration saving throws at higher level. Transmuters have a special magic item that can be given to party members for various benefits, as well as a free polymorph self spell. Necromancers steal life from those they kill and raise stronger undead with their magic. Illusionists can make their illusions real, allowing them to conjure function bridges, ladders, walls, pits, etc. Abjurers gain Spell Resistance and are the best at dispelling magic and counterspelling. Diviners can force re-rolls both of good or bad rolls and have a lot of (nearly) "free" divination spell slots. Enchanters can mesmerize people as a special ability and can split powerful enchantment spells to affect two targets. Evokers, of course, specialize in dealing lots of damage but also have the ability to shield their allies from area-of-effect magics.   Perhaps the biggest draw for me, however, is a Wizard's superior Ritual Casting class feature, which doesn't even require spell preparation- just a spell book.  A Cleric has to spend a slot to "prepare" a ritual spell but a Wizard only has to "know" the spell, freeing that prepared spell for something more useful in an encounter.   This feature, along with Arcane Renewal, Spell Mastery, and Signature Spell make 5e Wizards pretty attractive to me.
(Reply to #23) Sorxores	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #25) Timborama	2Chlorobutanal wrote:
#28 BW0222 Sep 29, 2014 10:59:09	J.-Eric wrote:
#29 Treantmonklvl20 Sep 29, 2014 15:41:25	Note that Wizards still have the best spell list of any class in the game (and now better than the Sorcerer list as well)   Also note that the specialty powers for some of the schools are pretty awesome.  For example, take my favorite school Conjuration:  Create inanimate objects at will at level 2, Short range transposition at level 6 which recharges every time you cast a conjuration spell (how often does that happen?).   I can't help notice that some of my favorite spells (black tentacles, Wall of force, Wall of ice) are not present on the Sorcerer/Warlock lists at all.  And just look at the list of spells from levels 6 to 9, just look at the sheer difference in number of spells available.   That's why Wizards still rock.
#30 FallingIcicle Sep 29, 2014 16:25:39	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #29) mcintma	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #30) mcintma	FallingIcicle wrote:
(Reply to #32) Frostrazor	mcintma wrote:
(Reply to #33) Treantmonklvl20	Frostrazor wrote:
(Reply to #31) Treantmonklvl20	mcintma wrote:
#36 FallingIcicle Sep 29, 2014 18:57:39	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
#37 Coredump00 Sep 29, 2014 19:59:09	Plus, a 14th level wizard can short-rest and get back a 7th level slot. (or 16-8 or 18-9)
#38 FallingIcicle Sep 29, 2014 20:21:01	Coredump00 wrote:
#39 Caolin Sep 29, 2014 20:41:51	I'm amazed at the heavy focus on stats and rules in this discussion.  Don't any of you just want to roleplay as a certain type of character?  I wanted to play as a highly intelligent, constantly distracted, Dr. Who type of character and the wizard class fit the bill.  I don't really care how the wizard stats stack up against the other classes.  I just enjoy playing my character and finding creative ways to make him useful despite any class deficiencies.
(Reply to #29) Ashrym	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #38) Coredump00	FallingIcicle wrote:
#42 DaveDash Sep 30, 2014 1:10:59	Take a look at the Wizard spell list vs Sorc or Warlock. Their power is in their spell list. And not only that, their utility OUT of combat as well as in it. Having a great selection of ritual spells they can cast from their book makes them an awesome class to play, out of combat.
(Reply to #39) crimfan07	Caolin wrote:
(Reply to #39) Treantmonklvl20	Caolin wrote:
#45 MechaPilot Sep 30, 2014 18:50:19	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
(Reply to #44) Fireclave	Treantmonklvl20 wrote:
#47 J.-Eric Oct 01, 2014 19:00:21	Sorry it has taken so long to respond and thank you for all of your responses on in this matter. After reading what all of you have said, and playing a wizard over the weekend I may have been mistaken. At first glance they look a little lacking I discovered that it is many of the little things that make this class shine, rituals, being able to copy spells from scrolls and just being a basic rock star. There was a sorcerer in the group as well and at the level we where at he was able to use meta magic, and I will admit I was a little jealous until I was able to use detect magic and identify as rituals. I short I was wrong.