Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 phaaf_glien Mar 15, 2008 22:09:51	I was curious, if anyone could offer any suggestions: what weapons are allowed for a thief's "backstab" in 2nd edition? Is a bow and arrow allowable? Are only daggers allowed? Do you have any citations to back up your argument? Unfortunately, the PHB is a little vague on this issue. Please, if any of you can offer any advice, it would be much appreciated. Thanks much. Best to Gygax
#2 etarnon Mar 15, 2008 23:50:53	Only Melee weapons, NOT ranged. 2nd edition Black Book text specifically illustrates sneak up examples and says "experts at Knife in the back." At that point, I was going to say, I'd allow anything but Two handed swords....seems more like a swing than a stab. If you go by strictly by the 2e weapons list, and size restrictions on one handed weapon use: Halfling Thief, can wield one handed, Size S or less: Dagger, Dirk, Dart (Not thrown), Dirk, Knife, Scourge, Sickle, Short Sword Other thieves, Human, Elf, Etc, can wield one handed, Size M, or less: Battleaxe, Club, Dagger, Dart (Not thrown), Dirk, Footman's Flail, Footman's Mace, Footman's Pick, Hand or Throwing Axe (Not thrown), Horseman's Flail, Horseman's Mace, Horseman's Pick, Javelin, Knife, Morning Star, Sickle, Spear, Bastard Sword, Broad Sword, Khopesh, Long Sword, Scourge, Scimitar, Short Sword, Warhammer, Whip. However... D&D Rules Cyclopedia has this to say, p. 23: "If a thief can sneak up on a victim, completely unnoticed, the thief may backstab - if he is using a one handed melee weapon, he may strike at particularly vulnerable points of his target's body...the weapon doesn't have to be a stabbing weapon..a thief can use this ability with a club, for example. So, my advice would be one handed melee weapons, point blank range, NOT ranged weapons, could be short sword, club, sap, dagger, etc. The primary problem with the case of say a halfling is lack of size. Anything size M, he'll need two hands. This leaves: D&D Rules Cyclopedia List (Seperate from 2e, for completeness): Halfling Thief, can wield one handed, Size S or less: (Axe, Hand), Blackjack, Torch (as club), Dagger, Horned Shield, Knife Shield, Short Sword, Cestus, Rock In the end, I'd go with the 2e list, and additionally allow a Halfling thief to wield and backstab with a hatchet, hand axe also. By the rules, though, in 2e, no hand axe, it's size M. And definitely point blank range, sneaking up, unseen, etc, and no ranged (Edit, was melee, now corrected) weapons. Good luck, hope this answered it for you.
#3 phaaf_glien Mar 16, 2008 1:20:49	Thank you for your input Etarnon. You had some excellent points. I shall have to dwell on them. If anyone else has anything good to offer however, I would be most thankful to read what they have to say. Etarnon... I shall definitely be contemplating the point-blank range missile weapon dilemma... it is very interesting. Thrown daggers work then? Bow and arrows 2nd edition point-blank has a fairly significant range, by the way... I shall have to ponder your words more, as I said before. Thank you again.
#4 etarnon Mar 16, 2008 2:32:23	No, actually, I thought I had made it clear. No thrown or ranged weapons, only melee. You could of course use a normally ranged attack weapon, such as a dart, but use it like a knife, in the hand, not thrown. I included darts, handaxes and such as melee weapons ONLY, "not thrown versions", ie, in extremis, say a thief's weapons are gone. "Hey, Wizard, lend me a dart!" Taking it in his fist, the thief backstabs an enemy with it. The rules in 2e imply by example, and the cyclopedia clearly state, one handed melee weapons only, at point blank range. I'm not sure what you mean by Point blank range missile weapon dilemma. There is none. It's just using ranged weapons in the hand, to stab with, using a "Stabbing Knife technique." If you are looking for a ruling in 2e to be able to use some kind of "ranged backstab", you are not going to find it, other than a DM overriding Rules as Written. If that's you, of course, feel free. But then you are giving all sorts of attack power to the rogue, that is much in the flavor of 3rd edition, not 2nd Edition.
#5 true_atlantean Mar 16, 2008 5:02:24	The rules are quite clear on the point of the melee weapons. However, if you looked at the reasons for the backstab and how you interprete them, then yuor own game can include anything which is thematically appropriate. I've always seen it as an unseen attack which targets an opponents vitals (whatever they might be). In this interpretation, I've allowed, in some cases, a bow to be used. The unaware target, is not on the defensive and if the thief takes time to gauge the opponent, he could find a weak spot. Admittedly, it may be as simple as the arrow between the shoulder-blades, but if he notices the target walks with a limp due to a recent injury yet to heal, putting an arrow into that still-healing wound causes the victim excruciating pain. It could also reopent he wound, and thus be the reason for the 'extra' damage. At the end of the day, it is your game, so rule as you please. I just include this as some food for thought.
#6 etarnon Mar 16, 2008 18:25:26	I could see it going that way. I just prefer a more literal ruling. Certainly, anything is possible.
#7 phaaf_glien Mar 18, 2008 16:07:42	an interesting discussion we are having. i wish there was some canon that was extremely clear on the matter. where are the game writers when you need them. in the old days you used to be able to write TSR for solutions to problems
#8 true_atlantean Mar 19, 2008 6:01:09	an interesting discussion we are having. i wish there was some canon that was extremely clear on the matter. where are the game writers when you need them. in the old days you used to be able to write TSR for solutions to problems I'm in the process of going through over ten years worth of Dragon magazines for my new campaign. If I see anything in Sage Advice, I'll be sure to let you know.
#9 werral Mar 20, 2008 3:37:44	Maybe it's better off without them, there was an official 3E ruling on sneak/death attack that it couldn't be used in the dark. So Assassins have to turn on the lights before attacking.
#10 phaaf_glien Mar 20, 2008 16:40:21	thanks guys for all your comments and advice
#11 etarnon Mar 28, 2008 23:55:24	I'm kind of confused as to why you say "You seek Canon." I was quoting paraphrasing from the 2e "Black book" versions. How much more canon do you need? The only other source more canon that that would be designers from TSR, and they're out of business as a corporation. You asked for the rules for what weapons can be used, and listed them. What else are you looking for?
#12 Demetri_Knighthawk Apr 06, 2008 2:22:58	In the waterdeep novels, Cyric used a hangmans noose to kill a guard. He dropped the noose as he jumped down over a pole, the noose went over the guards neck just as the Cyrics weight snapped up the noose and broke the guards neck.
#13 Oxlar Apr 14, 2008 11:50:32	We allow any Piercing melee weapons. Our intreptation is the thief's knowledge of internal organs, etc... thus requiring a weapon that has the ability to penetrate. But this is just our homebrew flavor. Arguments can be made for slash weapons, even crush albeit its tougher to justify.
#14 Zardnaar Apr 14, 2008 14:33:45	In 2nd ed we had this theory. A dual/multiclass Fighter/Thief backstabbing off a horse using a lance. Probably require a silence spell and invisability. We thought it was funny espiciallywith Gauntlets of Ogre Power as IIRC backstab just multiplyed the damage dealt.
#15 oerdin Oct 05, 2009 2:09:28	We always limited the thief's backstab to single handed melee weapons.
#16 oerdin Nov 18, 2009 6:42:57	I just realized I posted in this thread before.