Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kevmann Apr 16, 2007 13:25:09	Born of supernatural bloodline, a warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul. Unlike wizards who approach arcane magic through the medium of spells, a warlock invokes powerful magic through nothing more then an effort of will. By harnessing his innate magical gift through fearsome determination and force of will, a warlock can perform feats of supernatural stealth, beuile the weak-minded, or scour his foes with blasts of eldritch power. Warlocks form a subclass of magic-user, and thus uses the attack and save matrix of a magic-user. A character must have a minimum of 14 in both Intelligence and Charisma before he can qualify to be a warlock. Also, only races with pure or mixed human blood can have the infernal taint to their blood that gives a warlock his power, thus only humans, half-elves, or half-orcs can qualify. A warlock must have either any evil and/or any chaotic alignment, thus lawful evil or chaotic good are alignment options to the warlock. Class Progression
#2 zombiegleemax Apr 16, 2007 16:59:05	I think the first thing to be done is to drop the X+1 HP progression. I've used it on one custom class in 1e ever, and that was because the class would be melee'ing a lot more. It was really a flavor thing, since on average, it's only 1/2 a point higher than the mage. The next thing is to drop the damaging dice from d6. The thing is, most creatures in AD&D have only a few hit dice, and after that, just HPs added. It's not quite the same as 3.5e where the creatures can have quite a few HPs, and even more with all the feats. This is how I would progress damage:
#3 kevmann Apr 16, 2007 19:10:38	As far as hit points, I guess I could move it up to d6, but I am not going to lay down at d4, this is a more martial class then your standard magic user. Well, that progression is a bit complicated to me. How about we just downgrade the dice to d4s. Now, if your not familiar with the eldritch blast, its a bolt of pure magical energy. In 3.5, its considered a touch attack, meaning it ignores armor and shields among other things. I think only things like having a good Dex and rings of protection would really help you against this attack. Also, since this is a subclass of the magic-user I would like to keep the matrix's within that class. And since the attack matrix of the magic-users is the poorest, it counters the fact their blast ignores armor. I'll add in that xp cap line. No, you will only be able to use the blast once a round. I'll try to convert all the 3.5 text into 1e text so this class can be viewed stand alone. Thanks for the feedback, I hope when I get the text posted it will clear up some of your mechanical questions.
#4 zombiegleemax Apr 16, 2007 23:33:55	I like the fact that some of us are looking for some new ideas that the later editions provide and try to introduce them to our older editions campaigns.Keep up the good work.
#5 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2007 8:37:17	I'm still a little wary about removing armor bonuses. The thing is, unless an action will almost certainly deal a small (read less than 10) amount of damage, having it ignore armor and shield bonuses is really powerful. A fighter with average con, who rolls well(as in all of his rolls are max), will only have around 110 hp @ 20th level. I might make the following changes: @1st level they get eldritch blast @4th level, it ignores non-magical shield bonus. @7th level, it ignores non-magical armor bonus. This way its not all at once, and at the end you'll still be great, but at the beginning, the fighting classes still get their chance to shine. Thing is, at 1st level, he's quite a bit more powerful than the magic user because he has access to 2nd level spells, so I'm more inclined to have the class be weak early (like the magic user) and then a wrecking ball from 7th+ Especially since its hitting on the same table as the magic user, I understand that its going to be a weaker class early on. That's ok. The magic user's attack table @7th requires a 9 to hit AC 10 (which is what many opponents are going to look like when you ignore bonuses), at 11+ it's only a 6, and at 16+, every round you'll be hitting with 7->9 d4...which kills a magic user after around two rounds. Can this deal 1/2 damage to creatures with with magical resistances or that require +1 or better to hit? I see this as being insane at the highest levels...like you get a magic user ally to cast time stop, and haste, and a few other buff spells, and all of a sudden blam any foe is dead before it even gets to go. Also, it might be interesting to find the original warlock class from OD&D and see how this differs. It's either in the blackmoor supplement or the eldritch wizardry supplement, iirc. Or its in a dragon magazine.
#6 kevmann Apr 17, 2007 17:48:53	Thanks for your response ypexode, glad you like it! orcandman, Firstly, I agree with you that I should include that non-magical armor and non-magical shield bonuses to not apply. Secondly, I am not that familiar with how magic resistance works in 1e. I certainly agree that creatures with magic resistance should take only a partial amount of damage, but since I do not know how it works I wouldn't know how. I also agree that having access to 2nd level spells at 1st level is a bit much for 1e, let me mess with the invocation list a bit more to get it settled out. However, consider that this class will be doing a lot less damage then say a warrior or a mage would. Even when he gets 9d4 eldritch blast, that is only on average 22.5 damage (9x2.5), most fighters and mages can do a lot more then that at that high of level. In fact, I might change things up a bit for the high level eldritch blast damage... Anyway, fighters have multiple attacks and mages have wicked spells, the warlock's strength lies in the fact he can keep going and going for multiple combats and his versitility, but in party situations that doesn't really help too much because if the rest of the party has to rest then the warlock can't really go on without them. I'm just saying, look at the class as a whole and you will see it stays balanced with other classes. EDIT: Ok, so I actually beefed the eldritch damage a bit at high levels, due to comparison of some of the stuff other classes can do. Also, I shifted a lot of the invocations to a higher grade. Now the warlock does not have access to higher then 1st level spells until 5th level.
#7 zombiegleemax Apr 17, 2007 21:15:16	don't get me wrong. At high levels, I'm fine with it ignoring armor and shield. At low levels though, its crazy more powerful than a mage or fighter. That's why I suggest having the ignoring of bonuses happen around similar times when fighters / mages get better. On further thought, using those invocations at will all day is pretty much like saying "Let me pick a random power, and I have that power..poof!" I'd be more comfortable with it being...say...a number of times per turn equal to level+3, or perhaps per hour/day. I'm not sure. Also, Voracious dispelling is insane. You have to remember, in 1e wizards have a small number of spells per day that they're casting. At level 5, you become better than the fighter, since your attacks, currently, are bypassing armor & shield, meaning they're gonna hit all the time. You're better than a wizard since you can just dispel the hell out of the 6 spells that they can cast, and poof, you win. You're better than a cleric because you can handle most weapons, have a great infinite use ranged attack (eldritch spear) meaning that cleric isn't getting close. Even if he does, unlike other casters, you're sitting in armor, which if playing by the weapon vs. ac charts, the cleric is gonna get penalties attacking you. The difference between this in 3.5 and this in 1e is that in 3.5 a lot of the numbers are higher, so the wizards, who have a crappy hit bonus, were never able to hit. They came up with a touch AC to give the wizards a fighting chance. But think about this, a wizard at 1st in 3.5, trying to touch attack a good theif (16+ dex) still has to roll a 13 (unless he's got weapon finesse..but even then the theif can take dodge, and other feats/skills/powers to up that number). This guy, in 1e at 1st only has to roll a 12. Possibly a 13. However, stats don't increase in 1e, AND infinite use abilities are really rare (only the monk has one, and the monk is mostly terrible). If this didn't ignore armor & shield, then the number 1st level warlock needs roll in order to hit a fully armored theif is 19. Now, that sounds like a lot, but if you use my progressions, that number drops @ 7th to a respectable number: 14 for a 19 dex theif (extremely rare). I would be OK with you changing the invokations so that perhaps you can modify the blast to bypass armor and shield. Otherwise, this class is pretty much the only class I'd take through any dungeon crawl. Good utility, good hps, great fighting capability since the few things in the game which boost AC are ignored completely, AND you get to deal with any magic user by infinite dispel of anything they attempt.
#8 agathokles Apr 18, 2007 16:41:09	Secondly, I am not that familiar with how magic resistance works in 1e. There's a percentile score, you roll under it on a d100, and if you succeed you're unaffected by that spell or power. However, consider that this class will be doing a lot less damage then say a warrior or a mage would. Even when he gets 9d4 eldritch blast, that is only on average 22.5 damage (9x2.5), most fighters and mages can do a lot more then that at that high of level. You should really do the math here, comparing with Fighters. I don't have 1e books, so I'll have to try with AD&D. The average high level fighter equipped with a 1d8 damage weapon he is specialized with, could do 2.5 attacks per round. Strength damage bonus are usually low, unless you have 18 Strength, but let's take a 6 points including magical weapon. That's up to an average of 31.5 HP per round, so 9d4 seems reasonable as long as the blast can hit a single target. When it becomes an area effect, that's a completely different matter, and should be addressed by comparing it with magic user spells (and therefore should have a cap on the number of uses per day, unless the damage is much reduced). All in all, it can be a nice class -- a good ranged fighter, basically, with some spells.
#9 zombiegleemax Apr 19, 2007 12:28:09	I might actually take a different direction with a warlock class. While it wouldn't be a direct descendant of the 3.5e class, it would look something like: Warlock Born of a thirst for unending power through the devils and demons of the universe, a warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul. Unlike wizards who approach arcane magic through the medium of spells, a warlock invokes powerful magic through black binding rituals which request aid from demons and devils. By harnessing his innate magical gift through fearsome determination and force of will, a warlock can blast his enemies with a soul-crushing force, invoke fierce curses, and even summon demons to himself. Warlocks form a subclass of magic-user, and thus uses the attack and save matrix of a magic-user. A character must have a minimum of 14 in both Intelligence and Charisma before he can qualify to be a warlock. Also, only races with pure or mixed human blood can have the infernal taint to their blood that gives a warlock his power, thus only humans, half-elves, or half-orcs can qualify. A warlock must have any non-good alignment, thus lawful evil or chaotic neutral are alignment options to the warlock.
#10 kevmann Apr 19, 2007 17:48:13	Well, I can limit Voracious Dispelling to "creature touched" to solve the infinite counter thing you mentioned. On to the eldritch blast thing, the only way I feel comfortable with removing the no armor/shield bonus is by perhaps using a different attack matrix souly for use with the eldritch blast. Perhaps the eldritch blast uses a cleric or rogue matrix?
#11 kevmann Apr 19, 2007 20:57:27	Listen, I wanted to keep my draft of the warlock short and sweet. I think that a class with as few descriptions as possible, few rules as possible, really works best in a 1e environment. Now, while I appreciate your enthusiasm and am willing to continue discussing the various balancing points of my class, introducing an entirely new class design was not what I had in mind.
#12 kevmann Apr 19, 2007 21:05:17	OK, I thought it out and for the reasons that I would rather a class be slightly underbalanced then overbalanced, I will switch the eldritch blast so it doesn't ignore armor/shields. Heck, a character in this class would probably have a really high dex anyway.
#13 zombiegleemax Apr 20, 2007 6:03:18	you could also always have it hit at +1...heck having it treated as a +1 weapon might actually make the class really useful to party members.
#14 kevmann Apr 22, 2007 22:56:57	Ok, how about I say that warlocks get a +1 bonus to hit with their eldritch blast and I'll add a line in about how the blast is treated as a magical attack. However, two issues remain. Firstly, the eldritch blast is going to be reading more and more like a weapon attack. I mean, it requires a to-hit roll, hits as a magical weapon, and is effected by armor and shields. So the question still remains, is it or is it not effected by magical resistance? If so, we would be making it even weaker then it is, kind of like getting the worst of both worlds (spells and weapons). Is there an alternative that keeps within the flavor of the ability? Secondly, I have been looking at the monk unarmed damage progression and it looks pretty nice. If I continued it to lvl 20, it would be about the same average damage as 9d6. Do you think I should switch to that damage progression? Lastly, I was thinking about adding in a new blast shape evocation in either greater or dark area. Something that allows them to make two attacks in a round, once on their initiative and once more at the end of the round. I think that since monks get so many attacks in a round and do the same damage as a warlock that this would balance the class out nicely in terms of being in power with the other classes.
#15 Higmorton Apr 28, 2007 16:02:40	Then give the blast the desription as using a blade of force. Stated magic resistance does not apply because this is more a force generated weapon. I would also increase the magical bonus as the player progresses. lev. 1 - 4: +1, 5 - 8: +2, etc. Max it at +4. I would say keep the damage as it is. As for attacks. Use like an adaptation of the fighter. level 1 - 8 : 1 attack level 9 - 16: 3/2 attacks level 17+ 2 attacks But then still, a weapon proficiency, for the blast should be taken, then I would say amd additional slot should be speant at 9th and 17 to get the bonus attacks.