Sorcerer fans hate the wizard for their bonus feats and countless prestige classes, and wizard fans hate sorcerers for their spontaneous casting and metamagic, and the bitter fact that--even though wizards are supposed to be the undisputable master of arcane arts--the sorcerer has a higher magical "stamina" (more spells per day). It seems to me that most players are unsatisfied with the sorcerer because, "sorcerers are so unversatile". That is, unless you are very experienced with most of the spells in PHB, your spell selection will more often give you disadvantages in the game, rather than advantages. Because of this, people claim that the sorcerer is underpowered.
But the sorcerer isn't underpowered, far from it. We're talking about a character that can cast fireball at least six times in a row, and still have a good chance of charming his way out of the situation if this doesn't work. The sorcerer is only more difficult to play than the other characters because the player has to be extremely picky with those precious spells known and is almost required to plan every single level -up before the sorcerer even begins his adventures.
So, how do we solve this? More spells known, based on the charisma modifier? In most cases, this makes the sorcerer overpowered as he becomes TOO versatile. He has a spell ready for anything, anytime, anywhere. Not even wizards are that unique. Bloodline traits? Again a tendency towards "overpowering" and more often making the sorcerer into a "Dragon Mage" "Fighter Mage" or a sort of warlock, rather than a spellcaster. Also, this removes the very essence of the sorcerer: simplicity. Bonus feats? With spontaneous metamagic too many bonus feats could make the sorcerer close to omnipotent--capable of changing the element of every single ball/ray/touch, without having to prepare materials, while handbound and gagged, and of course; maximized to the fullest.
Allow "quick spell"? Are you serious? This is a DM's nightmare. DM: "You enter the cave and as you light the tinderstick you find yourself surrounded by a horde of skeleton dragons, and you hear your nemesis call out from the darkness 'GIVE ME THE PENDANT AND I'LL LET YOU LIVE!! '"
PC: Quick teleport
DM: w-w-what?!
PC: Back to the tavern. I use quick spell to teleport myself back to the tavern. That's one lv 9 slot wasted, but it's worth it.
DM:
So, what's my suggestion to the so called "sorcerer problem?" It's as simple as the sorcerer itself: NOTHING. Leave the sorcerer as it is, use the spell swap in 3.5 if you must, give them eschew for free if you feel like it, but DON'T try to turn the sorcerer into something it isn't. Namely, a wizard.
But if PCs keep complaining, if the spells known are a handicap and not an advantage, here's my humble solution: Permanently remove one lv 9 spell known, and let this spell be a "free" spell. The sorcerer chooses which one at the beginning of each day, and swaps it (if he wants to) the next day. One spell can be any spell of any level for one day at a time. You'll be surprised at how much more versatile this makes the sorcerer, without making him omnipotent, and without having to create a new template. For the sake of roleplaying this spell resembles the sorcerer's ability to improvise and memorize magic.
Of course, having a new lv 9 spell each day could be considered overpowered, and in that case, set the maximum "free spell level" to seven. Or six, even, if you want to. No new templates, no overpowered bloodline traits, no "wannabe wizards with a lot of metamagic feats", just a simple sorcerer and a happy player :d
However, simply modifying the sorcerer's ability by allowing a "free" spell slot introduces an actual rules change. Have you considered a lesser change that might be considered a custom feat, new spell research, or such?
What about:
- Creating a new metamagic feat, which would allow a slot to hold a flexible spell, but requires a spell slot several levels higher than the spell it will hold. Yes it takes longer to cast, too, but that's the price of flexibility.
- Simply learning Limited Wish, which can produce much the same effect (though at an experience point cost)
- Researching a new spell similar to Limited Wish, that can only be used for flexible spellcasting, but doesn't cost XP. In exchange for no XP cost, it can only duplicate spells one level lower than Limited Wish, and lacks all the other applications of Limited Wish.
So, how do we solve this? More spells known, based on the charisma modifier? In most cases, this makes the sorcerer overpowered as he becomes TOO versatile. He has a spell ready for anything, anytime, anywhere. Not even wizards are that unique.
Ok. Why is this the only method to increase spells known? What if each level had 1+cha mod, instead of just adding cha mod number of spells known to the already existing total? What if you just increased the number of spells known per level by one?
It seems that all you're doing is picking one method of upping spells known, dismissing it, and then using that as the basis to prove that no method of increasing spells known will work.
Either that, or you just only considered a single way that people deal with the issue, in which case, your analysis is really incomplete.
Bloodline traits? Again a tendency towards "overpowering" and more often making the sorcerer into a "Dragon Mage" "Fighter Mage" or a sort of warlock, rather than a spellcaster.
What? This point is nebulous and unsupported. Please support what you're saying.
Also, this removes the very essence of the sorcerer: simplicity.
I thought the essence of the sorcerer was unlearned, spontaneous magic.
Bonus feats? With spontaneous metamagic too many bonus feats could make the sorcerer close to omnipotent--capable of changing the element of every single ball/ray/touch, without having to prepare materials, while handbound and gagged, and of course; maximized to the fullest.
I don't even know where to begin on this. For starters, the sorc can already do everything you're talking about, just with the feats he currently has. And even if he couldn't, your support doesn't seem to indicate that a sorc is "close to omnipotent," so much as "able to escape from prison." And maximizing does take up higher-level slots and stuff.
Look, it's either that spontaneous metamagic is too powerful--in which case, adding bonus feats isn't the problem--or it's not too powerful--in which case, bonus feats aren't really an issue.
Allow "quick spell"? Are you serious? This is a DM's nightmare.
You mean Quicken Spell? I'm being picky, but this forum is supposed to be for the cream of the crop for D&D posts.
And what's the problem? Wizards, Clerics, and Druids can Quicken. Sorcerers cannot. No appropriate reason has been given for this. And your example doesn't help:
DM: "You enter the cave and as you light the tinderstick you find yourself surrounded by a horde of skeleton dragons, and you hear your nemesis call out from the darkness 'GIVE ME THE PENDANT AND I'LL LET YOU LIVE!! '"
PC: Quick teleport
DM: w-w-what?!
PC: Back to the tavern. I use quick spell to teleport myself back to the tavern. That's one lv 9 slot wasted, but it's worth it.
W-w-what?!
You cite a 16th level sorc using a 9th level spell to escape death or loss of a relic as an example of being overpowered? This is the "nightmare?" Why Quicken? Couldn't a Silent Teleport do the job? Couldn't a Wizard cast a Quickened (Silent) teleport as well? This example doesn't support your point at all.
So, what's my suggestion to the so called "sorcerer problem?" It's as simple as the sorcerer itself: NOTHING.
What about the crappy skills and skill list? The class description says the sorc is a good party diplomat, but all he can do is lie to people.
What about the lack of incentive to stay as a sorc for 20 levels? No class features means that virtually any PrC you can get is going to be a straight upgrade.
What about the lag level of spellcasting? Why does a wizard (or druid or cleric) get new spell levels one caster level earlier than the sorcerer?
You don't address any of these legitimate complaints in your post.
But if PCs keep complaining, if the spells known are a handicap and not an advantage, here's my humble solution: Permanently remove one lv 9 spell known, and let this spell be a "free" spell. The sorcerer chooses which one at the beginning of each day, and swaps it (if he wants to) the next day. One spell can be any spell of any level for one day at a time. You'll be surprised at how much more versatile this makes the sorcerer, without making him omnipotent, and without having to create a new template. For the sake of roleplaying this spell resembles the sorcerer's ability to improvise and memorize magic.
Ok, this isn't bad. You learn one fewer 9th level spell in exchange for the ability to choose one spell each day to know for that day? That's cool, that's versatile.
Do you only get this ability when you'd otherwise get to choose a 9th level spell to know, or is this something a sorc would get from the beginning?
...
Overall, I'm confused. Why is this thread on this forum?
Allow "quick spell"? Are you serious? This is a DM's nightmare. DM: "You enter the cave and as you light the tinderstick you find yourself surrounded by a horde of skeleton dragons, and you hear your nemesis call out from the darkness 'GIVE ME THE PENDANT AND I'LL LET YOU LIVE!! '"
PC: Quick teleport
DM: w-w-what?!
PC: Back to the tavern. I use quick spell to teleport myself back to the tavern. That's one lv 9 slot wasted, but it's worth it.
DM:
If the logic behind denying a Sorcerer access to the ability to Quicken Spells is unbalanced because those spell effects are spontaneous, then by all means Rods of Metamagic (Quicken), Instant Metamagic, and Automagic Quicken Spell should likewise be stripped from the game---for all spellcasters.
The ultimate problem with the Sorcerer is that she doesn’t have any level dependent class features that cannot be duplicated through 90% of the prestige classes out there, other than that walking XP drain time-bomb affectionately referred to as Summon Familiar. Therefore a Sorcerer character has no reason or incentive to stay a Sorcerer beyond a specified number of levels. Add to that the static nature of Spells Known, combined with the fact that every new sourcebook comes out with new Spells, Metamagic Feats, and Magic Items (i.e. candy for the Wizard and coal for the Sorcerer) and you have a very irritated ensemble of Character Class fans.
You could allow a sorcerer to attempt to cast any spell on his list - with a sufficiently difficult spellcraft check, and at the cost of a higher level spell slot. You'd have to make it unattractive enough that it wouldn't be used often, but likely enough to work that it's be worth trying in a difficult situation.
Something like . . .
Improvised Casting:
The sorcerer can attempt to cast any spell (on the Sorc/Wiz list) that he does not know. To do so, he must have a high enough CHA to learn the spell, and expend a spell slot of the same or higher level, plus additional slots that total the spells level (a total expenditure of slots equaling twice the level of the spell). The Sorcerer then makes a Spellcraft check, with a difficulty of 20 + twice the spell's level. Because this is a sorcery check, the Sorcerer can use his CHA modifier instead of his INT modifier, if he wishes. If he succeeds, the spell goes off normally. If he fails by up to 5, the spell effect is evoked, but it's power is reduced in some way decided by the DM (a lower DC save, less damage, a smaller area, or shorter duration). If the sorcerer fails by up to 10 some effect occurs, directed in the manner he intended, but much less powerful, or substantially different than the intended one.
Maybe adding to the idea with something like . . .
Splitting a Known spell slot:
Sometimes a sorcerer tries to master more spells than he is really ready to, and ends up with inferior knowledge of additional spells. A sorcerer can 'split' a known spell slot, learning two spells instead of one - however, he does not know either spell as well as he should. Instead of being able to cast these spells automatically, he must use Improvised Casting, but at a + 5 to his spellcraft check. A sorcerer could even 'split' a slot three ways, but the bonus gained to Improvised Casting is lowered to +2.
Or . . .
Improved Improvised Casting [General]
You are a particularly talented improvised caster.
Preq: Able to spontaneously cast arcane spells.
Benefits: You add +2 to your spellcraft check when improvising a spell, and can support an improvised casting with additional slots equal to only half that of the spell being improvised (total slots equaling 1 1/2 x the spell's level). If you fail the roll by less than 5, you can expend additional slots equal to half the spell's level (again, rounded up), to 'power the spell back up' to normal function.
As a support mage, a sorcerer can bull strength more people than his wizard equivalent, and still have other spells on call if things go bad while buffing up the party. If there is a group of five people, then a wizard would have to prepare five bull's strengths to boost them all. But what if an enemy attacks you? The sorcerer could switch out his spells for a shield or mage armor if he is caught, and knows those spells. A wizard has little chance.
As a nuker, a sorcerer with a metamagic feat or two becomes one of the most versatile casters. In a dungeon where you have no preparation, and ice ball could very well be worth more than a fireball. The wizard wouldn't know this. A sorcerer wouldn't either, but he could improvise.
Don't compare the sorcerer to a wizard. It's like comparing a wizard to a barbarian. The barbarian lovers would say that the wizard is underpowered because he could never possibly hold his own in a one on one combat against an equal CR. And wizard lovers will roll their eyes and mention wish. The sorcerer and the wizard are different enough that they are distinct, but people still scrunch them together. The wizard lovers should stop trying to make the sorcerers into wizards, and the sorcerer lovers should stop trying to make the wizards into sorcerers.
As a wizard, you have to learn and accept that you can't do everything. Your spells are almost more like spell like abilities. They're a part of you, and crying that you are limited by knowing cat's grace instead of Melf's acid arrow is as silly as saying a vampire is limited by having a charm gaze instead of a paralyzing gaze. Or that you are limited by having legs instead of wings. Build a character concept around your sorcerer, make him good at what he does, and you will have no problems!
Come on. We all know it's coming. And if Oberani and any previous Sorcerer Vs. Wizard threads are any indication, this will get hot quick.
How it works is that spontaneous metamagic increases casting time as normal, but characters who cast spontaneously can choose to "preset" a particular spell + metamagic combination at the beginning of the day (right after resting to regain spells), losing one of their known spells of the new level for that day, and gaining the combo in its place, which can be cast without any time increase. For example: Bob the Sorcerer wants to be able to use Quickened Mage Armor without a casting time increase, so he chooses to "know" Quickened Mage Armor as if it were a new level 5 spell (still counts as level 2 for DC, etc.), sacrificing Overland Flight (a 5th level spell). During that day he could use Quickened Mage Armor as a free action, but couldn't use Overland Flight.
I like this, as it allows Quicken, and seems to fit well with the way Wizards use it: Wizards prepare spells, Wizards prepare metamagic, Sorcerers have spells known, and this lets them use metamagic that way. Arcane Preparation never seemed that great to me, you give up spontaneous casting (for that spell), so why not just be a Wizard? Also, its a fairly simple system that doesn't seem to overpower the Sorcerer
Originally posted by Talonos
As a support mage, a sorcerer can bull strength more people than his wizard equivalent, and still have other spells on call if things go bad while buffing up the party. If there is a group of five people, then a wizard would have to prepare five bull's strengths to boost them all. But what if an enemy attacks you? The sorcerer could switch out his spells for a shield or mage armor if he is caught, and knows those spells. A wizard has little chance.
This is only an advantage at lower levels. At higher levels, the Wizard can pop out a scroll of the needed spell, as he has enough money. Heck, if everyone chips in (which they should), the Wizard could make (using one of his bonus feats) wands of various buffing spells.
As a nuker, a sorcerer with a metamagic feat or two becomes one of the most versatile casters. In a dungeon where you have no preparation, and ice ball could very well be worth more than a fireball. The wizard wouldn't know this. A sorcerer wouldn't either, but he could improvise.
Metamagic rods.
Don't compare the sorcerer to a wizard. It's like comparing a wizard to a barbarian.
Actually, it's not. Comparing a Wizard to a Barbarian is comparing a spellcaster class to a melee class.
Both Sorcerer and Wizards are arcane spell casters, and have the same exact spell list. They are very similar to each other.
One of the main problems with the Sorcerer is that there is no reason to stay in it when Prestige Classes are available. They give the Sorcerer what he has and more.
Basically, the idea of Sorcerers is a great one, but it needs to be fixed a bit.
I think it's quite silly, because the Wizard can achieve limited spontaneous casting a lot more easily than a sorcerer can avoid the metamagic slowdown.
I say the idea for max spells known per level equaling x + Cha mod, where x is a constant, is a great idea. Especially if you bring back the goodness of hard caps to human abilities and racial restrictions for core classes. Remember the good old days when only humans could be paladins and there were racial mins and maxes to ability scores?
Ahhh, the good old days.
I think that the metamagic rods were a mistake. I think that it was an attempt to make the wizard more sorcerer-like in their approach to meta-magic abilities.
And your example of having a wizard with a ton of scrolls and wands also works, assuming that the wizard has the money and wants to spend it. Keep in mind that the cost of many, many scrolls can quickly become prohibitive, especially when you get into higher level scrolls. Besides, a sorcerer can use scrolls too, if you insist on making him more like a wizard in terms of flexibility. He just pays extra money instead of XP, as he buys them from the market.