Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 14, 2006 23:40:13	A humbly-suggested adjustment/fix to Shapechange (based on issues described in 'The Polymorph Problem', by Andy Collins): Reasons: There are several reasons given as to why Polymorph spells are broken (in this specific case Shapechange). They can be summarized as follows: 1. They are too powerful. 2. New books increase the power by increasing the number of Shapes available. 3. The normal application of the spell may not fit with Epic Level characters/monsters. 4. The amount of time/effort it takes to moderate the spell. However, there is a built-in method in D20 to manage these issues. And with a little creativity new additions to the spell can also be managed. Suggested Change: Skill Checks in general are used to quantify activities, providing a reasonably clear definition of success/failure. Therefore, why not use skill checks to control the scope of Shapechange? It seems as though (with a well-defined set of DC modifiers) most, possibly all of the above issues can be resolved without slowing down the game and without modifying the spell. Shapechange Skill Check definition for Non-Epic Creature Type: Base DC: Humanoid: DC10 Animal: DC10 Monstrous Humanoid: DC15 Shapechanger: DC20 Undead: DC25 Giant: DC25 Aquatic: DC30 Beast: DC30 Fey: DC30 Ooze: DC35 Plant: DC35 Vermin: DC35 Magical Beast: DC35 Outsider: DC35 Dragon: DC40 Elemental: DC40 Construct: DC45 Aberration: DC45 DC Modifiers (in order. All affects must meet the requirements of previous affects): Number of Source Guides containing allowable creatures: x 5 Extraordinary Abilities: +10 Supernatural Abilities: +10 Spell-like Abilities: +10 Base creature HD higher than the caster level: +10 per 5 HD A Knowledge (Creature Type) skill check would be required once per casting per Creature Type. In other words, if you want to shapechange from a horse to a dog, you would only roll one Knowledge (Animal) skill check. However, if you want to shapechange from a dog to a mindflayer you would have to make 2 separate Knowledge skill checks - one Knowledge (Animal) and one Knowledge (Aberration). Failing to beat the total skill check would not automatically indicate a failure. Rather, this would limit how many aspects of the creature you can utilize. For example, only meeting the Base Type and books modifier would give you the HP, AC, attacks, physical statistics, movement and size of the creature you become. However, if your total is 10 higher you would also gain the Extraordinary abilities of the creature, but none of the Supernatural or Spell-like abilities. The minimum skill check you would have to meet would be the Base DC and the source book modifier. Failing to meet the Base DC and source book modifier would not mean that the spell failed. Rather, you would be unable to change into that creature type for the duration of the spell. As an example (Assuming Shapechange allowance of only the Monster Manual 1 and Monster Manual 2): Attempting to shapechange into an aboleth with full abilities would require a Knowledge (Aberrations) Skill Check of: 45 + (2 x 5) + 10 + 10 + 10 = DC85 On the other hand, if (in the same campaign) you want to become an ettin with only Ex. abilities you would need to make a Knowledge (Giant) skill check of: 25 + (2 x 5) + 10 = DC45 Epic Creature Skill Check definition: In order to better represent the uniqueness and power of Epic creatures, the DC modifier should not grant access to any Epic creature of a specified type. Rather, the DC modifier should be based on the specific creature's CR. Base DC: Creature CR x 3 DC Modifiers (again should be kept in order): Ex. Abilities: (+10) Su. Abilities: (+10) Spell-like Abilities: (+10) Base HD higher than the caster level: +10 per 5 HD Note that the book modifier has been removed since creature type does not impact the DC. However, the pertinent skill is still based on the Knowledge (Creature Type). Obvious Impact: What are the obvious impacts of this change? 1. The DC levels can become extremely high, requiring (in most cases) that the spellcaster focus on a specific Creature Type. 2. The more books allowed, the higher the DC. 3. To become a non-Epic level Construct or Aberration is almost as difficult as becoming a CR21 creature. However, keep in mind that a single casting could allow any Construct or Aberration (within the allowable books), while each Epic creature would require it's own Skill Check. 4. The base DCs as listed above are a best guess (based on similarities/differences to natural creatures.) With the possible exceptions of Creature Type Shapechanger and Undead. Shapechanger was specifically lowered because of it's ties to the spell. Undead was kept low due to physical similarity to live creatures. 5. The DM can decide not to allow the final 2 DC modifiers (for Spell-like abilities and HD). 6. Most importantly, the Spell Shapechange has not been changed though some requirements have been added.
#2 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2006 10:34:54	This may definitely solve the balance issue, but it will require even more work and time. Now you have to make the check, see whether it succeeds and how it succeeds and then modify what you have to modify. Personally, I really like the monomorph spells from the PhBII. It dramatically reduces the amount of work, time and cheese. Like your rules, it also makes you specialize in specific creatures/types.
#3 pz.az.04maus Jul 03, 2006 8:58:41	I like the idea of having something to hold back spellcasters on polymorphing, but this is ridiculously high, I think... still, kudos are yours for this.
#4 stealth_monkey Jul 06, 2006 9:37:25	How does your solution change #2 and #4? Also, 18 separate skills? Are you insane? A master of many forms would be able to shapechange into maybe 4 creature types, a simply needless nerf in my view. Perhaps incorporating the creature types into the existing knowledge skills?
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 06, 2006 21:45:57	It's an intriguing idea, but stealth monkey's right. Can it be replaced with spellcraft/psicraft for shapechange and metamorphosis respectively? Or a caster level check, since the complexity of available form will depend on you skill as a caster or manifester, not how much you know about the creature. The polymorph chain has always relied on HD as the limiting condition. Of course add penalties and bonuses that relate to special abilities and perhaps type, but the DC might have a base of 10 + xx per HD, then + 10 for special abilities etc. If you are the same type as the creature, its -5, and if radically different it's +10 to DC, such as living/mortal to undead / outsider or vice versa.
#6 docrailgun Jul 07, 2006 7:01:30	While interesting, there is (of course) an even simpler fix. The GM can simply not allow PCs to polymorph/shapechange into a form that is too powerful.
#7 fatmonkey13 Jul 07, 2006 13:25:33	The creature types are already associated with specific knowledge types. Arcana: constructs, dragons, magical beasts Dungeoneering: aberrations, oozes Local: humanoids Nature: animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, vermin Religion: undead The planes: outsiders, elementals Also the addition of new monsters in books does not make the spell more powerful unless those creatures are included the DM's world. A Wizard can't polymorph into a creature he does not know (so the skills are needed already unless the Wizard has met the creature in game).
#8 zillah Jul 08, 2006 1:19:02	I don't like it. The point of polymorph is to be versatile. Shapechange on the other is 9th level for a reason. I get the problem of having too many choices, but that’s between DM and player. Good article though.
#9 arctan Jul 11, 2006 0:33:12	You don't need *new* Knowledge skills, nor the overkill of one Knowledge skill per creature type. By RAW, the Knowledge skills are *already* associated with types, meaning that a character who's been studying up on a particular topic -- nature, say -- already gets bonuses to knowledge about relevant creature types Making this bonus apply to checks to polymorph into monsters of that type makes a lot of sense and doesn't create the huge roadblock this does. The guide for "knowing useful information" should work for polymorphing, too -- DC 10 + HD in the relevant skill. Note that this would force Wizards and Sorcerers to dump points in Knowledge skills they don't normally use -- that is, Nature and Local.
#10 tarlss Jul 11, 2006 16:06:33	That's the obvious solution. The purpose of creating a mechanic is to provide a safety net/guideline so all or most DMs conform to the same standard. This is way too complex. I think the key is to limit the amount of forms available to spellcasters with a hard cap. The Master of Many Forms and Druid Wildshape don't need this of course. Wildshape is its own beast, and the Master of Many forms, unlike the wizard, doesn't have access to level 9 spells in addition to polymorphing. Polymorphing is overpowerd when added to something else. When it is the sole, basic feature of a narrowly focused class, it is balanced perfectly.
#11 jwt Jul 13, 2006 8:00:41	Personally, I really like the monomorph spells from the PhBII. It dramatically reduces the amount of work, time and cheese. Like your rules, it also makes you specialize in specific creatures/types. Which are good if you are playing a wizard. But this trend does make the sorcerer class much less flexible, and therefore less fun to play (and yes - it drops his power level, too). I don't want to turn this into a sorcerer thread, but the splitting of the 'uber' spells into various sub-spells is a trend I personally dislike, so I like it when people come up with other options to fix the brokeness of the polymorph school.