Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax May 29, 2005 13:57:46	Who here has read a D&D book, or played a game, or in any way interacted with an "official" representation of the D&D demonic or diabolic races, and come away a little disappointed? I know I have. Demons just seem like big, stupid monsters, which I suppose is fair enough. But devils... devils are supposed to be clever, manipulative, diabolical. And yet, all too often they seem to be treated as demons with slightly different stats. I'd like to propose a new way of thinking about demons, devils, and the motivations of the two. I don't like the idea that the Hells are their own distinct dimensions. It seems to me that they should be somehow reliant on the Prime Material plane for their very existence. As I see it, demons and devils aren't just aliens from another dimension who happen to be ugly and mean; they are creatures of elemental evil, and should be motivated as such. They are parasites, feeding on the negative emotions and pain of the mortal realm, and growing stronger with each pain they inflict. Both demons and devils share some aspects of their nature. They start out as barely-sentient, impotent lumps. But every time they feed, they grow slightly in power, intelligence, and in hunger. The oldest and best-fed demons and devils are mighty and clever indeed, but are also consumed with a constant, ravenous hunger for negative emotions. "Demons" are creatures that feed off pain and suffering. Any kind of pain and suffering will do in a pinch, but the suffering of intelligent species, and particularly the suffering of the innocent and kind-hearted, hold a special savor for these beasts. When summoning a demon, one must often torture and kill an animal or person as an offering. But it's not the meat or blood that the demons devour; it is the suffering of the offered creature that feeds them. When let loose in the material realm, demons will usually go on killing sprees, torturing and slowly killing their victims that they may wring every iota of pain from their victims. But some of the most clever demons are able to think long-term, and can arrange to receive tribute from willing sentient creatures. "Devils" are a far subtler and far more insidious force for evil. They feed off not suffering, but the corruption of the mortal soul. The rites of summoning for a devil may seem very similar to those for a demon, but there is an important difference: it is not the pain of the victim that feeds the devil, but rather the defilement of the sacrificer's soul that comes from the killing of an innocent. Any magician who summons a demon risks pain and death, but any magician who summons a devil may very well pay with his soul. Devils often lurk in the shadows and liminal spaces of the mortal realm, whispering debasement and sin to all those who will listen. As their victims fall further into sin, the voices of the devils only become more insistent; but when the sinner is truly brought low, the devil will abandon his promises of dark rewards and move on to a new victim. After all, there's no more feeding to be had from a completely corrupted soul.
#2 zombiegleemax Jun 08, 2005 18:56:51	I don't really understand the point of this system. It doesn't change game rules at all. It isn't based on anything but your opinions. I think you need to go back to the drawing boards with this one. Demons and Devils gain strength just like any other creature. Through experience gained in combat. Or if you want this idea add some game rule info. ~Rogue Newb
#3 the_one_true_shea_dup Jun 08, 2005 19:03:14	I like the way you start, and I like where you go, but I feel like the piece could be longer. Even just one more paragraph. Just pull it together for me instead of leaving me hanging on the devil entry! I like the idea, and I concur as far as the general connotations of demon vs devil - though neither terms are used in D&D (or most people for that matter) stringently. Demon is a corrupted form of an ancient word meaning the same thing as "spirit being" -- related to the Elohim of Sumerian myth. Devil is a more recent term that I'm uncertain of the origin of but I know that it usually refers directly to ol' Diablo. Otherwise the term is pretty much synonymous with demon for literal liturgical purposes. Perhaps a etymological aside would be appropriate for this piece - your opinions always look better when you have a mirror - even if the two versions don't look exactly the same. An "in conclusion" would be sweet. Repetition is reinforcing your intent. Leave your reader with what you are saying not the last thing you said. There are exceptions to that kind of rule but I don't think this is one of them.
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 08, 2005 22:52:14	That's an interesting way to look at it, and I would have to say that I agree. All to often demons and devils are treated as the same thing, and the same dumb think at that. You are exactly right, they are not stupid, and they should never be played as such. Demons, I find, get a much worse beating with the 'dumb shovel' than devils. To me they are not a dumb creature, it's just their methods that make them appear so. My demons are exactly as you suggest: Smart, but more straight forward than devils. They tend to overlook the more subtle forms of evil.
#5 gilean_dup Jun 12, 2005 3:43:33	What about daemons/yogoloths and creatures living in Carceri?