Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Apr 22, 2004 21:43:41	Every so often I play low and no magic games, but its frustrating that the best craftsman in the world can only make a +1 to attack weapon. So I devised this. MASTERWORK ITEM SYSTEM Masterwork equipment is of a higher quality and make than normal counterparts, granting appropriate bonuses to the level of superiority. There are varying degrees of masterwork outlined in the appropriate section below. Masterwork items are crafted at an increased Craft DC and cost relative to their heightened ability. Masterwork Weaponry Masterwork weapons are lighter, sharper, better balanced or somehow altered to provide their wielder with an advantage in combat. To craft a Masterwork weapon one must first make the appropriate craft check to craft the weapon, then a DC 20 Craft check to make it masterwork. Masterwork weapons may be improved in three ways, each increasing its enhancement by +1. +1 Attack +1 Damage +1 Hardness, +5hp Each bonus increases the Masterwork Craft DC by 4. Any weapon with a total bonus of more than +10 or a single enhancement of more than +5 is epic. (Therefor you could craft a +5 attack +5 damage sword, but not a +5 attack +6 damage sword). The price for a Masterwork Weapon is the weapon's base cost + Enhancement modifier squared times 350. Example: Bort the Blacksmith wants to create a short sword. He makes a Craft (Weaponsmithing) check DC 15 to craft the shortsword. Then he decides it will be a Masterwork short sword. He'll call it Bort's Batter. He decides it should be durable and hit hard, so it will be a +3 damage, +2 Hardness and 10 Hp shortsword. The Masterwork craft DC becomes 40 and Bort's Batter sells on the open market for 8750gp (10+(25x350)). For determining the time it takes to craft a Masterwork Weapon multiply the Enhancement bonus by 350 and consider that the items price. So for Bort's Batter the crafting time price is 1750gp. Additionally there are certain Abilities that can be added to Masterwork Weapons, increasing their Craft DC and cost like a normal enhancement. Breaking: This weapon is designed to break opponent's weapons. +2 to Sunder attempts. Disarming: This weapon is designed to catch opponent's weapons. +2 to Disarm attempts. Guarded: This weapon is designed to be used on the defensive. +1 AC when fighting defensively or using Feats such as Combat Expertise. Gripping: This weapon is designed to be easy to keep hold of. +2 against Disarm attempts. Light: This weapon is designed to be less burdensome. -10% weight Sharpened: This weapon is designed to be lethal to its target. Deals only lethal damage. Blunted: (Melee Weapons Only) This weapon is designed to be less lethal to its target. Deals only non-lethal damage. Aerodynamic: (Thrown weapons only) This weapon is designed to be thrown farther. +10ft range. Recoiled: (Bows and Crossbows only) This weapon is designed to fire accurately farther, +20 ft range. Masterwork Armor Masterwork Armor is thicker, more flexible, lighter, or in some way designed to proved its wearer with an advantage in combat. To craft a Masterwork armor one must first make the appropriate craft check to craft the armor, then a DC 20 Craft check to make it masterwork. Masterwork armors may be improved in four ways, each increasing its enhancement by +1. +1 AC +1 Max Dex Bonus -1 Armor Check Penalty +1 Hardness, +5hp Each bonus increases the Masterwork Craft DC by 4. Any armor with a total bonus of more than +10 or a single enhancement bonus of +5 is epic. (Therefore you could craft a +5 AC +5 Max Dex armor, but not a +5 AC +6 Max Dex armor). The price for a Masterwork Armor is the armor's base cost + Enhancement modifier squared times 200. Example: Con the Crafter wants to create a Full plate. He makes a Craft (Weaponsmithing) check DC 18 to craft the full plate. Then he decides it will be a Masterwork full plate. He'll call it Con's Can. He decides it should be protective but flexible, so it will be a +3 AC, +2 Max Dex full plate. The Masterwork craft DC becomes 40 and Con's Can sells on the open market for 5400gp (400+(25x200)). For determining the time it takes to craft a Masterwork Armor multiply the Enhancement bonus by 200 and add the Armor's base price and consider that the items price. So for Con's Can the crafting time price is 1400gp. [b]_________________[/b] In a low/no magic game such items become more important. Usually replacing magic items. In high or normal magic games lower caps are important so as not to upstage magic. Capping it at +2 total enhancement, with no single enhancement above 1 is fine. Finally, if the DCs or costs are too low there’s nothing wrong with changing them about to fit your campaign. You may think +4 craft DC isn't enough, up it to +5. Or you may think 350 is to low when determining weapon prices, then up it to 400. In the end the system is more relevant than the numbers. With thanks to celloshane for the pricing system. Thanks to Thelon Fairbalde for the Light weapon enhancement.
#2 zombiegleemax May 30, 2004 20:35:27	I would like to suggest one change. If a person has a Longsword +1 (Market Price 2,315gp) this is statistically the same as a MW (+1 Attack, +1 Damage) Longsword (Market Price 1415gp) except for one key difference. The Longsword +1 is subject to Detection, dispelling, antimagic, etc. This would be fine, but with this system magic items are still more expensive that regular magic items even though they are less effective. I would suggest A modification to the equations to calculate prices, such as: Weapons: MW (Price in gp) = (Enhancements)^2 X 300 + (Weapon Price) Magic (No Special Ability) (Price in gp) = [2 X (Enhancement Bonus)]^2 X 200 + (MW Weapon cost) Magic (Special Ability) - As Normal (Price in gp) = (Enhancement Bonus)^2 X 2,000 + (MW Weapon cost) Example Longsword = 15gp MW (+1 Attack, +1 Damage) Longsword = 1,215gp Longsword +1 = 1,115gp Shocking Longsword +1 = 8,315gp ---------- Armor MW (Price in gp) = (Enhancements)^2 X 150 + (Armor Price) Magic (No Special Ability) (Price in gp) = (Enhancements)^2 X 100 + (Armor Price) Magic (Special Ability) (Price in gp) = (Enhancements)^2 X 1000 + (Armor Price) Example Scale Mail = 50gp MW (+1 AC) Scale Mail = 200gp Scale Mail +1 = 150gp Shadow Scale Mail +1 = 4,050gp
#3 taltamir Jun 15, 2004 20:58:32	PyR3f1y: The suggestion to change the pricing to make MW more expansive the magic items is illogical, The magical forces in it might make it subject to all those spells, but it is still a modified masterwork item, a masterwork item that was then enchanted with magic, making it more expansive and more powerful. Not only that it can penetrate damage reduction and has other benefits to counter the costs. Thanks for the good article.
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2004 8:16:36	One little note. All magic items are inherently masterwork items. So if you dispell or antimagic a +1 longsword, its still a masterwork longsword of +1 - it just wont have the magic property for DR reasons. Also I agree, I would up the price to reflect the extra bonuses. DMG
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2004 12:02:20	The idea is cool but its gonna take some master craftspeople to make some of these items. It would take a twentieth-level expert to even make that longsword in your example! This'll make these items even rarer than magical weapons in a low-magic campaign!
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 24, 2004 6:35:07	I suggest you invest $10 in Heroes of High Favor: Dwarves, an excellent product by Badaxe Games. It includes a set of rules for alternate masterwork items (supposedly exclusive to dwarves, but there's no reason why anyone couldn't use it).
#7 worldconquerer Jun 24, 2004 16:42:11	Pretty cool, but the sharpened effect sounds way too overpowered. What if you're fighting a god with a sharpened longsword? Would the god just die when you hit him? Also, look in the DMG. Your MW enhancements are very similar to some of the magic enhancements in the DMG.
#8 evanta Jul 01, 2004 9:43:07	IMO, mastercraftsmen should be one of the more important factors in making a legendary weapon rather than the power of a wizard/cleric. I was rather thinking that masterwork weapons should go up to +2 to hit and damage, and up to +5 using special metals (mithral/adamantanite/cold iron/etc). However, without magic these weapons should tend to degrade in quality pretty fast without magic to preserve their edge. A real-world example would be katanas, they are extremely well-made, but tend to be damaged very easily. Same logic for armor, if you get hit, that's damage to the armor that will be hard to repair to its original condition. I would probably rule that without magic to preserve their sharpness, they would lose a +1 bonus every time a critical fumble is rolled, to a bare minimum of +1 to hit. Magic in this case would tend be more important to preserve the edge, and add special qualities, like flaming/bane/etc.
#9 ahnehnois Jul 04, 2004 8:00:00	An excellent idea. It would take a twentieth-level expert to even make that longsword in your example! Skill Focus: Craft, high int mod, fancy smithy, there are ways to get that mod up there. It does make having great craftsmen actually worthwhile, but I do think the DCs are somewhat high, and I also agree the prices are somewhat low. Easily refined by some playtesting and math, though.
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 08, 2004 16:20:09	Yes, you can kill a god by paying only a few hundred gold. I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of "lethal"...in d20, "lethal" means "not subdual"...in other words, normal damage. If anything, this ability is almost useless. What weapon doesn't deal lethal damage? Outside of a few rare exotic weapons...
#11 taltamir Jul 13, 2004 23:05:28	I’d say all the replies about sum it up. The idea of degrading bonuses is excellent, why not apply it to ALL weapons at NO max loss, or at a max loss that puts the weapon or armor at a -3 "bonus"? So eventually you COULD end with a useless sword (broken). Thus you could still wield a broken sword, and it will be EXTREMELY valuable to enchant items.
#12 worldconquerer Jul 15, 2004 19:19:21	Yes, you can kill a god by paying only a few hundred gold. I think you're misunderstanding the meaning of "lethal.” In d20, "lethal" means "not subdual." In other words, normal damage. If anything, this ability is almost useless. What weapon doesn't deal lethal damage? Outside of a few rare exotic weapons... I'm sorry. In 3e "lethal damage" is called "normal" damage.
#13 zombiegleemax Sep 10, 2004 17:55:12	I've just got a few comments, I like this system a lot. When did armor get hp and hardness? Is there any way to make shields? How on oerth could a smith make this stuff? A +10 weapon has a DC of 60! Let's take a level 20 expert (if there would ever be one). 23 ranks, +6 from exeptionally high intelligence, +2 from masterwork tools, and +3 from skill focus. 34 all in all. A natural 20 will only get you to 54! I suggest taking the DCs a little bit lower, maybe giving only +2 for each point of masterwork.
#14 evanta Sep 28, 2004 2:34:06	I've just got a few comments, I like this system a lot. When did armor get hp and hardness? Is there any way to make shields? How on oerth could a smith make this stuff? A +10 weapon has a DC of 60! Let's take a level 20 expert (if there would ever be one). 23 ranks, +6 from exeptionally high intelligence, +2 from masterwork tools, and +3 from skill focus. 34 all in all. A natural 20 will only get you to 54! I suggest taking the DCs a little bit lower, maybe giving only +2 for each point of masterwork. Hmm, I think in this case metals like mithril should give a craft bonus, i.e. +10 craft skill or something, due to their inherent properties. That means +10 weapons could be only crafted with special metals, which makes them unique and much harder to get.
#15 zombiegleemax Sep 30, 2004 13:12:40	I'd think special materials would be harder to craft weapons from, rather than easier. The reason for the enormous DC 60 is to keep such weapons rare. I designed the current system to keep the "Uber" weaponry confined to magic, and to make a +10 masterpiece blade a rare prize.
#16 boozerker Sep 11, 2006 1:51:58	Buoyant armor. On swim checks, decrease the Armor check penalty before doubling it. Light armor, subtract 1 from the Armor check penalty before doubling it. Medium armor, subtract 2 before doubling the penalty. Heavy armor, subtract 4 before doubling. For reference: Double the normal armor check penalty is applied to Swim checks.
#17 banatine Oct 22, 2006 13:23:49	I have noticed something about the sharpened upgrade. Since it only does lethal damage, does that mean it ignores regeneration, which changes all normal damage to non-lethal?
#18 thelon_fairblade_02 Oct 24, 2006 11:15:04	Thinking about the high DC and alternate materials, what about this: Normal Steel: +4 DC per masterwork, max 6 upgrades (DC 36) Mithril: +3 per masterwork, max 8 upgrades (DC 38) Adamantine: +2 per masterwork, max 10 upgrades (DC 38) Of course, mithril an adamantine cost more to work with, so you are trading DC for cost, and you must make separate crafting check to work with mithril or adamantine in the first place (which should be a piece of cake, given the masterwork DC you are targeting). So, for example, Bort the Blacksmith can make Bort's Batter using normal steel, at DC 36 (5 upgrades... OP's math was wrong). Or he can make Bort's Batter using mithril at DC 32, but he must also work the mithril (an additional DC 20 component). He could make it out of adamantine (DC 28), but the cost of the metal might make that a foolish endeavor for so "weak" a weapon. On the other hand, let's look at Bort many levels later. Bort wants to make the greatest weapon ever seen wielded by mortals (i.e. a +10 weapon). He decides to use Bort's Batter as a template... a shortsword, with +2 to hit, +5 damage, +3 Hardness, and +15 HP. Since he has 10 upgrades, he *must* use adamantine. Here Bort pauses: Adamantine has Hardness 20 already, and 40 HP per inch. No need for all the durability upgrades. Instead, he decides Bort's Best Batter will be +2 to hit, +7 damage, +1 Hardness (to beat other adamantine weapons) and +5 HP. Bort needs a DC 38 to craft this weapon, and DC 30 to work adamantine, and DC 15 to make the sword. Failure on any of these die rolls renders the entire work wasted. But Bort is a level 20 expert (if there would ever be one). 23 ranks, +6 from exceptionally high intelligence, +2 from masterwork tools, and +3 from skill focus. 34 all in all. [Quoting simen_88] On top of that, Bort has been donating at the temple for the last year (+2 circumstance bonus perhaps, from divine favor), and has arranged access to the Forge of the Dark Heart (+2 circumstance bonus for extraordinary workshop), and has called back his old apprentice Bert (now an Expert 16) to help (+2 Aid Another). Bort thus has a +40 to the rolls... he has three 5% chances to fail this crafting check (a natural "1", if using critical fumbles on skills, which is NOT core; only 2 chances if using "1 = -10", since he still makes the DC 15 check on a roll of "-10"). If he succeeds, he has crafted a legendary item. Having worked this example, perhaps my suggestion should be more like this: Normal Steel: +4 DC per masterwork, max 6 upgrades (DC 36) Mithril: +3 per masterwork up to 6, +4 each if 7 or 8 (DC 48) Adamantine: +3 per masterwork up to 4, +4 each if up to max 10 upgrades (DC 56) This way steel is cheap, but can only make a "+6" weapon (like a conventional "+3 magic sword"). Mithril is more expensive, but can make that +6 weapon more easily than even adamantine. Adamantine is fantastic for +4 weapons, and is the only material you can make a +10 weapon out of. For the +7 and +8 weapons, mithril and adamantine are equal in difficulty; mithril costs less and is a weaker metal.
#19 archangel62 Oct 26, 2006 3:43:06	Hmm, I like the idea a lot, also some unique masterwork products or alterations to items are also a good idea. For example, the item templates I think would be cool.
#20 tharivol266_dup Oct 30, 2006 9:01:31	I think get rid of the sharpened and add "with no penalty" to the blunted and only allow one bonus to be added for the same 300gp that it normally costs. It gives more variety but no extra math, no complex formulas to remember and it doesn’t tread on the space of the magic weapons. Same with the armor. Those but only one for the same cost as the normal mw abilities (I’d get rid of the +1 AC bonus and add one for spell failure).
#21 stormonu Nov 06, 2006 16:49:19	Hmm... this is somewhat similar to the system I was creating for my game, though I put the limitation of one masterwork quality to an item. Weapon Masterwork Qualities Weapons can be made masterwork in different ways, allowing for different game effects. Only one masterwork quality can be applied to a weapon, and each of the different masterwork qualities still qualifies a weapon to be enchanted. The different masterwork qualities are described below. The standard masterwork quality is considered to be Balanced. With the exception of Balanced and Razor-sharp, masterwork qualities retain their functionality in magical weapons. Masterwork qualities are applied before magical modifiers or feat modifiers. So for example, a +1 keen barbed scimitar has a critical range of 13-20/x2.
#22 sergikins Nov 06, 2006 21:13:50	I'm pretty sure the sharpened mechanic is basically like saying you have a blade that'll cut your finger when you touch it, therefore, making dealing non lethal very difficult to deal. However, the problem really is that non lethal damage isn't dealt with the blade always, I imagine someone striking you with the flat of a blade, and the hilt of a sword. I think it should be the sharpened part should be scrapped altogether. Otherwise, looks nice. I actually made a list, maybe when I have some time I'll post it.
#23 Nathreet Nov 09, 2006 21:27:35	Prices are off but it seems to work well enough. Remember that 2d6 alchemist's fire is an epic item that costs 5 times as much as regular alchemist's fire and the craft DC is 20 (10?) higher. Without magic, you can't increase the abilities of a weapon like that. I'd say even a +2 MW weapon would be incredibly rare. Oh, and getting +1 AC for the cost of a +1 bonus is off. That's as good as magical right there.
#24 meikle_641 Feb 25, 2008 19:00:39	Time for a little bit of thread necromancy...I've gotta say that I've enjoyed your ideas, Donnavin Snowolf. I've been looking for a good non-magical way to make cool items for a while now. In fact, I may just use these a bit in the campaign I've been planning. And as for these being "unbalanced"...Well, honestly, having to be EPIC to make a 2d6 damage molotov cocktail is just ridiculous. Add 10 to the DC and double damage or something. Hardly warrants being Epic. And besides, d20 Modern has a similar system in place anyway, and THAT has rules for magic weapons anyway. Hardly anything to get worried about balance. And besides, if it's a natural +x enhancement bonus bonus it won't stack with magic anyway. /necromancy