Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 pinch Mar 05, 2007 17:27:41	Last night the DM whom I respect and admire inflicted one of the most horrid contrivances in all of game-dom on the party: the auto-capture scenario. The party was railroaded into an un-winnable encounter with overkill monsters, laughed at by the BBEG and tortured, and then allowed to easily escape through deus ex machina, minus all our good equipment. I was so disgusted at this that my character killed himself in confinement and later refused resurrection; it was the last session of the campaign but that event just took all the fun out of it and I wanted to go home. Perhaps not the most mature thing to do, but staying would have been worse for everyone involved. In any case, I've been thinking about this particular type of scenario, and as a DM myself with many years of experience I can really say that there is no right an wrong way to do an auto-capture; just a wrong and worse way. Perhaps it comes down to play styles; some players trust that no matter how bad it gets the DM will bail them out and prevent disaster; I have much more fun as a PC when I feel my character is master of his own destiny and lives or dies by his own decisions. One might argue that sometimes crap happens to people and there's nothing you can do about it; but D&D isn't about reality, it is a game that is supposed to be fun for everyone. Auto-capture scenarios are rarely fun for anyone. Before using an auto-capture scenario into your campaign, think long and hard about what you are doing. Are you trying to advance the plot, or are you just trying to go on a DM power trip? Will the BBEG truly have the resources to accomplish the scenario legitimately; if so will the players ever be able to overcome it? Is is worth losing the trust of your players? Could the same plot continue without forcing failure on the players and the feeling of frustration and helplessness that comes with it? DMs often feel that the point of an auto-capture scenario is to make the players feel anger and hatred towards the villain. However most times it only makes them feel anger and resentment towards the DM. Whatever the DM is trying to accomplish, the chief result of an auto-capture is ruining any sense of a "Players versus the Villain" dynamic and replacing it with a much worse "Players versus the DM" dynamic. Or the DM may be trying to introduce an important NPC or power group to the plot, but usually this can be done just as easily without forcing the group to fail first. To start the Auto-capture scenario, the PCs first need to get captured (duh). This is usually achieved by one of two ways: cheating or overkill. With the cheating method, the DM simply breaks the rules in some way and the players get captured. There are various degrees of this, such as blatantly disallowing saving throws against spells/poisons/traps etc. or using mysterious unnamed powers or artifacts against which there is no defense. Expect this method to leave your players feeling extremely frustrated and cheated; they will forever wonder when their abilities will be suspended again with no notice for no reason. With the overkill method the DM puts the players in an encounter where they are completely outmatched. This method is better than the cheating method because the PCs can't complain when they are unable to resist the spells of a Balor at 10th level. However this can completely ruin any sense of fairness in your campaign and can leave many uncomfortable questions. If the players are captured by very powerful monsters, they will wonder why those same monsters do no prevent their escape or show up later in the game. There are other perils; some or all of the PCs may escape capture, perhaps forcing you to resort to cheating. If you use your BBEG to capture the party, be prepared for the possibility of the party beating them too soon. The players can tell if an opponent has Plot Device Immunity. Once the players are captured, they are generally 1. Laughed at by the BBEG and 2. Tortured. As I said before, the purpose here is to make the PCs hate the villain and "punish" them for getting captured. But this is unfair since they had no choice but to get captured they didn't really fail. If you do inflict an auto-capture on your players they will generally get the point that they are supposed to be mad at your villain and follow the rest of your plot; don't punish them more by giving them permanent injuries or preventing them from ever recovering their equipment. Once the taunting and torture are over with it's time for the PCs to escape. There are again two main ways this is accomplished: either the level of security is (inexplicably) reduced in their prison, allowing for an easy escape or the PCs are saved by a third party (deus ex machina). The first method is a hard sell because when a DM uses frost giants to capture the party it makes no sense that their jailors are goblins. Or if you have been suppressing certain spells or abilities of the players up until now in order to keep them confined, you'd better have a good reason why they are suddenly working again. With the second method the DM has an NPC or group of NPCs rescue the party, or perhaps some magical form of aid comes to them from some unexpected source. The purpose here is usually to introduce the PCs to some important plot characters and/or to impress them with the "awesomeness" of an NPC. In reality all that is going on here from the party's standpoint is that the DM is playing with himself. A better option is to temporarily grant one of the PCs extraordinary abilities that will allow them to escape; it's still stupid but at least the party will feel some sense of accomplishment. It's important to stress that the party should never suffer any type of permanent loss after an auto-capture scenario. Anything the DM takes away should be recoverable; any injuries they suffer should be healable. Regardless of how much sense this may make to you, to the players it's no different than if you simply picked up their character sheet and started erasing things for no reason. No one wants to play with a DM who so sadistically maligns his players. In the end however you will find that auto-capture is rarely, if ever, worth it. There are other ways to accomplish the same things without abusing your players so much. If the purpose of your auto-capture is to impress upon the PCs the evil nature of your BBEG; consider having him inflict those evils on other NPCs. The party will be just as shocked and angered if the villain captures and tortures their friends, and you won't have to worry about any hurt player feelings. If you're trying to introduce important NPCs, consider having those NPCs get captured instead and having the PCs act as the deus ex machina event which rescues them. This method accomplishes the same thing but works so much better from a gameplay standpoint; the players will feel resourceful and powerful rather than weak and helpless, it will make for a great adventure, and they will gain from it rather than lose. If you must capture the PCs, don't make it illegal or unfair. Have the villain send constant, increasingly powerful attacks at the group, each designed to capture them. Sooner or later you will probably capture at least one PC, and then it makes perfect sense for the other players to rescue them, and again there are no hurt feelings or sense of mistrust because you played by the rules and didn't go overboard. Always remember that this game is about having fun, for everyone involved. If the DM is having fun at someone else's expense, everyone loses. As a DM myself, I only enjoy the game when the players do, and try always to make sure that is the case.
#2 deus_proelii Mar 09, 2007 0:59:24	I'd have to disagree. Some of the best rpg adventures have featured auto-capture scenarios. Baldur's Gate II for one starts with an auto-capture, and Knights of the Old Republic had a brilliant one too. In both cases the auto-captures were used to advance and develop the plot, in ways more complex than simply encouraging the player to hate the BBEG. If you haven't played either game, I highly recommend you do. I disagree that an auto-capture would frustrate all players - it just takes players mature enough to deal with the momentary loss of control. An RPG is not simply a game to be beaten, it is also a story unfolding, so I do not see how an auto-capture is "cheating". Of course, in both the auto-capture scenarios noted above, the player does not lose any actual equipment nor gain any permanent disabilities, but that just proves that there can be a "good" way to do an auto-capture, not merely a bad and worse way, as you have alleged.
#3 sciguy98 Mar 09, 2007 4:01:35	I performed a type of auto-capture by pulling DM strings to cheese them into a TPK. One might think that this is being a bad DM, but in my defense: -One of my players was constantly saying that I wouldn't kill any of the party members. -Same player actually went so far as to say that I was afraid of killing a character. -The PCs thought that any encounter was defeatable, assuming I wouldn't place something so dangerous in my campaign world. They found out about a hive of Rippers (Cityscape) and about a lost artifact there. They went in, got surrounded, and even though they were outnumbered 3 to 1, they never considered running. Ok, maybe that's not really like an auto-capture... Although, leaning more toward the topic, the players are going to feel hosed no matter how they're captured if they are captured. Throwing two CR 9 creatures at a party of 2 lvl 8 and 2 lvl 9 PCs isn't unreasonable. EL 11 is well within what they should be able to accomplish, but proper tactics and preparation on the part of the antagonists will likely see one or more party member dragged off even if the party take out one of the would-be captors.
#4 enderlaand Mar 09, 2007 10:25:00	You make many good points and in general I agree with you. I would like to introduce one counterpoint though. Some parties (very specific ones) are prone to being easily captured, and then can easily escape. I speak mostly of rogues at this point. A rogue with his move silently, hide, DD, and Open Lock skills maxed out isn't doing much to prevent himself from being captured. One bad roll to either stealth skill and he is found and (probably) caught. His skills would then allow him to escape from confinement much more easily than they would prevent him from being there in the first place. 'Wilderness survivalist' types would likely suffer the same fate. Sorcerers and clerics may also come into this category, assuming that they were captured at a time when their spells were depleted. Some times the 'auto-capture' is not quite so automatic.
#5 sroblin Mar 09, 2007 21:22:00	With all due respect to the sentiment expressed and the genuine stressfulness of the auto-capture scenario, I feel your article generalizes about the scenario and contains assumptions about the way 'D&D is suppose to be'. Having been on both sides of auto-capture incidents, I agree that it can be frustrating and disempowering to be caught in a hopeless scenario; but that can also make the eventual struggle to escape all the more rewarding, and most importantly, offers interesting roleplaying opportunities and situations. The heroes being captured by villains--and struggling to escape--is a staple of fantasy and adventure stories and lends itself to all manner of interesting scenarios. As to the realism of the prison break; the fact is, people have managed to escape all kinds of well guarded prisons in real life, and that plot points are 'contrived' to make this possible in a fantasy game is no different from the kind of 'coincidences' that just happen to put the savior's party in the position to save the realm or whatever. This heroic fantasy, right? People have supernatural powers, powerful allies, and good luck (and sometimes, bad luck.) Certainly, a well designed prison break can occur for plausible reasons, best of all, through the character's ingenuity and resourcefulness. I acknowledge that losing power and facing defeat can be stressful, and perhaps this doesn't sit well with your expectations or playing style on how DnD 'ought to be' about the players being masters of their own fate. Being captured, in my experience, can open some awesome roleplaying opportunities. I remember one game (in which I was merely an observer) where the whole party enjoyed the experiene of their imprisonment because of the chances it offered them to make personal sacrifices and explore their characters under new levels of stress and moral dilemma. The break out can also be a fresh twist on a dungeon scenario; in one game I ran, half the party was captured by megalomaniacal lahmia queen in an ambush, and the other half escaped to try to hatch a rescue plan. The captured party gathered intelligence on their captors (and through no particular foreplanning on my part) managed to get the jump on their guards, just as the rescue party burst in through a tunnel dug by Ankhegs filching from the storage room. Their breakout was pretty cool, and involved turning the fortresses magical guardians upon itself. I appreciate that it can feel unfair to be placed in an unwinnable situation, and if the break out it is either too easy or too much 'deus ex machina', it can seem overly contrived. However, it seems to me your frustration with the 'autocapture' is that it contradicts a sense that you are entitled only to face encounters which you can win. I however, feel its fine if the PCs (for some incomprehensible reason) actually lose to an overpowering or well executed trap (which may not be overpowering, but simply very cleverly constructed) every now and then, as long as it doesn't kill or ruin them in the long run, and serves as a good opportunity for roleplaying and character development.
#6 terjon_of_the_blue_rose Mar 10, 2007 2:45:32	A well written piece but I think you may have missed one or two valuable points that can help with the auto-capture. In particular I think that the best option for escape is to set-up the challenge so that at least one PC can escape. A rescue by another PC is well within reason and leaves a group sense of accomplishment. This is especially true when the escaping player couldn't pull off escape without the aid of the others. The other point is that there is another source of the auto-capture. I have captured 3 out of 4 players in one of my games by simply having them arrested by proper and legitimate authorities. They could have fought free (though there would have been serious consequences) but chose to surrender in the hopes the other 3 who had been separated by an earlier fight could help. This is perhaps the best option for an auto-capture as it leaves the choice in the hands of the players. They can live or die so to speak on their own decision. The fact that they learned during the prison break they had been framed by said legitimate authority only made things better. PS I allowed the escapee to recruit existing NPCs who had already been allies and had their own reason for wanting to break into the prison to provide characters for the players who were under arrest. This provided an interesting change-up for the players who were at the time working on what they wanted to do next with the characters they had. The auto-capture isn't the worst technique but it does require care. Your absolutely right the case you ran into was a railroading and not to subtle. If my characters had chosen to fight they would have faced dozens of increasingly difficult numbers of guards until eventually said guards started only tracking while leading them towards elite and very difficult foes. By the time they faced the elite forces there would have been very little chance since the group I had prepared was trained in dealing with adventurers and had defenses set-up to handle them.
#7 zax_silverstrike Mar 10, 2007 8:21:24	I totally agree with you Pinch. My DM has done this twice to our party. Every time we are feeling good about ourselves we get jumped and enslaved. And our DM doesn't even let us out like you say. He made us stay slaves in an arena for about 8 sessions, and when we finally got out we had only gained one level and had no money or equipment!
#8 grod_the_giant Mar 11, 2007 18:14:28	I think you missed the most important piece of advice about this: The DM should talk to the players if he wants to do something like this.
#9 zombiegleemax Mar 11, 2007 22:37:05	"Auto-captures" aren't as horrible as you suggest if they are done with care. Obviously the two main problems from the players points of view is that the DM may unceremoniously take away their ability to make decisions, and second, the DM can potentially take anything from the players afterwards. That's why the DM must use this with care. I'll grant some examples from my own campaigns: 1. The players were random travelers on a ship that got attacked by pirates. This was monologued as the introduction to the campaign and not actually roleplayed, placing the characters all in an unfamiliar city after the pirates took the ship there. Technically it was an "auto-capture", but it was intended to be a reasonable basis for a campaign and having a party that had to stick together. 2. The players were accused of murder by the city's soldiers, who arrested them. Obviously the party had no ability (and especially knew that they were on the losing side of the law) to fight their way out, so they accepted detainment. They were later bailed out by an associate after a trial that was against them from the beginning. The purpose of this scene, of course, was not to torture or deprive the players, but to play out a "cut scene" to advance the plot of government corruption. Even so, an "auto-capture" can be done instead as a role-playing opportunity. Suppose a villain threatens a player's family member, so the party member surrenders to spare that person's life. If done tastefully, the party will accept it as plot advancement. As long as they are used sparingly and with great care, they can be used to great effect in a campaign.
#10 jaime_wolf Mar 12, 2007 0:21:36	Actually, I find this terrible advice. Dealing in absolutes such as "this is ALWAYS a bad idea" is almost always a bad practice when dealing with human behaviour. There are many situations in which an unavoidable capture makes perfect sense and contributes to both the plot and balance of the game. If a player is given a too-powerful item for instance. And don't give me any of that "well, that's the DM's fault" either because it is very easy to give an item that seems simple, yet becomes incredibly powerful in conjunction with something else. Even if it is the DM's fault, that makes it their responsibility to fix it. I do agree that suspending the rules in favour of capturing the PCs is a bad idea that will breed nothing but bad feelings. However, the BBEG is quite often more powerful than the PCs initially and thus it is logical that they would be able to employ forces (such as the balor you used as an example) capable of capturing what might register as "future threats." Moreover, the PCs might not be threats yet, this may be an introduction to the campaign in which the characters are simply being made example of or are otherwise being involved for no particular reason on their part. Later in a campaign, it may very well be a good way to foster aggression between the PCs and the BBEG as long as the players are mature enough to handle the situation, which you acknowledge you were not. It might also, as mentioned above, be used to remove a too-powerful item. Perhaps it could be used as a means to bring the PCs into some otherwise impenetrable fortress so that they might conduct their mission from the interior. On that note, it makes perfect sense to have the guards weaker than the captors. How hard is it to restrain a strong man? Now, how hard is it to restrain the same man stripped of all equipment and thrown into a stone and metal box? A prison guard is generally not a strong enemy, the strong ones have more important things to do. No, the prison guard is there to notify the big guys if something goes wrong. Note that removing the equipment of the man is, in D&D terms, removing the class abilities through some means (antimagic field for casters, et cetera).
#11 solbergb Mar 12, 2007 12:54:19	The best capture scenarios are the ones where the party botches things and the NPC's are the kind that take prisoners, perhaps for interrogation, slavery or even better "villainous dialog" as in "come over to the dark side Luke..." Often some party members are free and can work to rescue the others, while those in prison are engaged in roleplay, diplomacy, bluff etc to try to get freedoms from the captor sufficient to turn the tables. I'm not a fan of planned capture sequences, because the PCs can often foil any plan that's actually by the rules if they twig to it. (It isn't so bad to have an ATTEMPTED capture scenario that succeeds. That's fine. Just have a plan for if it doesn’t or if it has partial success.)
#12 steevo Mar 13, 2007 1:01:27	I agree whole-heartedly. If you want to capture the PCs for some reason, that's all well and good, but you shouldn't ruin the good sporting nature of the game to do it. If the DM has an idea for a plot thread that begins with the PCs being captured, there are two valid and fair-minded way to go about implementing it, in my mind: 1. Plan an intricate (but fair) ambush scene, wherein the BBEG and/or his minions try to capture the PCs. Take your time, plan it out, make it good. But also make it fair. If the PCs outsmart you and win the day, good for them, they earned it. You can always try again later and just delay your brilliant plot thread for a while. 2. Discuss the idea with your players beforehand. Honestly, I don't know why it's such a hard concept for so many role-players to grasp. "Hey guys, I have a brilliant idea for a new plot thread, but it starts off with the heroes getting caught. What do you say?" THEN you can pull the "unwinnable capture" and the PCs can fight back enough to satisfy themselves before getting caught. No one is cheated because everyone knew it was going to end this way beforehand. (Disclaimer: Using option #2 and then breaking/permanently removing treasure the PCs earned fair and square is dirty pool. Take it away for a bit, maybe, but give them a chance to get their kit back. They played along in the spirit of the game, so don't punish them for trusting you.) Alternately, if your sole objective is to get a "rescue mission" plot going, there is a third alternative: Introduce an NPC and get them kidnapped "off stage." Simple, clean, effective. Just don't do it every other session, because it gets old fast.
#13 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2007 1:55:58	I agree with this, but only in part. I'll start at the top. Firstly, though I’m sure its not your intent, it comes off a little whiny. Its a very 'its not fair that I got captured, I’m "teh awesome' and shouldn't have been beaten'. Now I’m sure that’s not your intention, but I thought I would mention it up front. Secondly, I have to say that the first thing I noticed is Dependant on this second. Your DM made a mistake. Auto-captures are not inherently bad, they just have to be done correctly. For example, dropping a group of dragons on your level 10 players? That’s bad. Using an as yet unseen lich with a wand of 'you get no save, you're asleep'? That’s also bad, but those ways (overkill and cheating respectively) are not the only ways. In fact, they aren't ways at all, because they don't succeed in doing what you want. Your best bet with the 'auto-capture' is one of two things. Either its Spontaneous, or its Planned. A Spontaneous auto-capture is when either your players are doing to DIE, and, not wishing to wipe out the entire group - which will make them just as upset as if you had cheated or overkilled them - you capture them instead. Instead of killing the downed characters, you stabilize them and cart them off to the Tower of Abominations. This brings us to the Planned method. This is much like the first, however, you do it in a way that makes it seem like the players had a chance, even when they honestly did not. The best way to do this is to have them encounter several monsters of equal-ish level, now either these monsters begin to lose, and one - or more - flee. Either they will be allowed to escape, or at least one will get away, and even if they don't all the noise will attract attention, and the players will be overwhelmed in the battle, taking many with them. OR, on the other hand, the players are ambushed. Make sure to use many 'player tricks' to make the players think that it was okay to be captured because these orcs were much smarter. They used nets, they grappled and used Aid Another, they used poison and they tripped, sundered and disarmed the players. Trust me for the rest of their lives these characters will talk about the band of orcs that captured them (and make sure they are somehow different from others. Better armor, armbands, amulets, tattoos, something, they are ELITE units). Now that you have your captured players in the Deep Dungeon of Despair, you run the risk of the next mistake. This mistake is the 'Villain will now laugh at/torture the players. This is, possibly, a good tact, it strongly depends on the maturity, style and type of players you have. Some enjoy such things, the underdog approach, the seething wrath at their captor (which, if done properly, isn't you). However, even skipping this step entirely is a good idea. Your villain does NOT boast, nor explain their entire plan in detail then leave, assured of your destruction, so assured he doesn't have to watch! Now you have captured players, stripped of their gear and naked in the face of their captors (or not, depending on the rating of your game, hehe.) So, what do you do now? What contrived excuse do you use to allow your players to escape? Do they suddenly get their magic back and the wizard teleports them away? Does a genie explode int he door and offer them all timtams? Nope, because that would be Teh Suck(tm). Instead, you do nothing. That’s right, nothing, you sit back and say: "You are in a dark cage, the cage sits bolted to the windowless, damp and slimy wall, the iron of the bars is slick and covered in rust, but the hinges appear oiled and the lock is new and glinting in the pale, flickering light of the single torch, how will you escape this predicament!" Then, as I said, you do nothing. The players will forget that they were overwhelmed and captured, they will forget that the villain did or did not laugh and/or give them wedgies. They have a mission, a quest, an obstacle! So, how do they escape? there are a few ways and here are a few. Do you have a big, huge, strong warrior or barbarian (who doesn't)? If you do, you simply wait, and if the players don't get it, don't forget to subtlety mention again how rusted and old the iron bars are. See that light in their eyes? Yes, that maniacal glee? Your Fighter and/or Barbarian (they can work together remember) are about to Pump It Up(tm) and bend those bars (remember, iron and steel only have a 30HP per inch of thickness, and 10 hardness (drop that by a few points for being old and rusted and you'll be bending them in no time!). Now your halfling rogue can wriggle between the bars and steal the keys from the desk/sleeping guard/dog. No keys in the room? that’s okay, the rogue now has to go and find, sneak up on and steal from the guard. [Quick progress check. Planning? Check. Players escaping? Check. All players being used? Rogue and muscles so far, check.] After a daring and heart pounding mission the rogue returns with the keys and frees the others from their cage, only they are naked! oh no! So now, they sneak off (with the rogue in front) and run across that guard the rogue stole from, quickly! before he raises the alarm, the monk jumps him, no weapons? no problem!, pummeled! (he's just a guard, you're supposed to be locked up!) and then you Lewt His Shizt(tm) and off you go. Oh, voices! Oh look! Their gear, but between them and it are the guards, who are pouring through it (and laughing and the hat the barbarians mother made him, oh no!) what will you do? The warrior has the guards sword, the rogue his dagger, the barbarian, his feathered hat (barbarians love hats). The rogue sneaks in, but the barbarian is furious about his maligned hat, and snatches up a stool, charging in with foam flying to strike the first guard, the fighter and monk follow, the rogue rolls his eyes, then stabs one of the guards in the left buttcheek, its carnage! Moments later, its over, the hobo-battle to beat all hobo-battles, the group is victorious! [Quick progress check. Planning? Check. Players escaping? Check. All players being used? Rogue, muscles and other (but, somehow more ninja-y muscles being used? so far, check. Battles? Two! Very Awesome. Got their gear back? Check!] So, now they are refitted, but they are sure the sounds of their battle are heard, so they must flee, the wizard barely having the time to rememorize a spell or two, and they are off! Running, being chased by groups of guards they are chased into a room, the barbarian seals the door behind them (with two chairs, a table and a box of helmets, one of which he keeps) The only other door is covered in runes, wizards turn! ... I could go on, but that would be pointless, eventually, in their escape, the players run across a guard post, captains quarters, something that holds physical evidence, notes, maps, books, something, to prove.. something, about the enemy. Then, when they escape they have a few things under their belts. A) Been captured B) Escaped! C) Kill some mooks D) Got experience! (and two hats!) E) Found Lewt(tm) to use against the BBEG F) Have story to tell at the bar! Congratulations, you have successfully Auto-Captured your entire party and made it not only lucrative, fun, and plot-centric, you did it without ruffling feathers or making anyone's character going suddenly and horrible emo and killing themselves and made it fun, as opposed to an exercise in how awesome you are (which, no doubt, is very awesome if you thought up all this.) As you can see, auto-capture works just fine, it can be good, and plot-moving. Only bad DM's make it anything else, as with anything, a bad DM can make meeting the god and goddess of carnal pleasures in their castle made of chocolate a bad thing. As a side note, some notable Auto-Captures in popular media. :Every bond movie ever. :Lord of the rings (book and movie.) :Princess Bride (sorta.) :Almost any Action Movie (Anything from Chronicles of Riddick to the Guns of Navarone.)
#14 neilthrun Mar 13, 2007 15:38:29	I agree, the auto capture scenario is frustrating. As a DM there is only one situation I use it in, and this to start a campaign, i.e. the first words out of my mouth as a DM in the first session are "You wake up in a dark cell...". In this case most players won’t feel any resentment to you; it’s just another way to get the players together. If there is a logical reason that a villain would want to capture the PCs, he should do so as with in his resources. Minions should be armed with weapons that deal subual damage, nets, disabling spells, and ambushes. It should not be outside of the villains resources or the parties ability to defend. Give them a chance. Creating scenarios like this adds a dynamic aspect to your adventure arc, the campaign can continue two ways, they get captured or they don’t. If players realize that the chance of survival and being caught are pretty close to even, they'll respect your ability to change your plot actively, to the point where the next session might need to be entirely rewritten.
#15 highbulp Mar 13, 2007 19:32:27	While I'm hesitant to agree with the OP that all auto-captures are bad, I do want to point out one mistake people are making. Many have given examples of times when the PCs were captured because they broke the law or lost a fight. Losing a fair (or even a difficult) fight is not an "automatic capture." Going along with being arrested is not an "automatic capture." Almost by definition, an automatic capture means that the PCs did not have a choice in the matter. So if you assume that, then I can see how most of the time auto-captures are bad--it's a subset of saying that most of the time, taking away a PC's in-game options is bad. I have captured PCs before. Usually I gave them some sort of chance to escape--either they could have run away, or they could have (with luck) won the battle. There has to be some choice. There has to be the illusion of choice. If you automatically overpower the PCs and capture them, then it isn't a problem if they don't realize they were going to lose no matter what. However this is a very tricky line to walk, and I wouldn't recommend it unless you are an experienced DM with an understanding group. In conclusion: don't let your players feel like you are railroading them. Automatic captures without any chance of avoidance is railroading, and extreme railroading is bad. I refer any readers to any of the railroading threads that (used to) populate this board.
#16 zombiegleemax Mar 13, 2007 19:43:54	To be quite honest, I hate anything that is even remotely similar to a situation that removes choice from the players. Seriously, we're not playing Final Fantasy. I don't want to have to solve puzzles and kill monsters solely to watch "cut-scenes" that were pre-determined. I want to have as much a part in the storytelling as anyone else at the table. So, I want to play Fallout or Fallout 2. Instead of Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or Final Fantasy. The real options in these last 3 games are: 1. Kill more monsters. 2. Try to progress the story to its eventual conclusion 3. Quit/Retire 4. Die Seriously, those are not options by any stretch of the word. It's a movie where I control the action sequences; which is utterly devoid of flavour since combat is nothing compared to the story that surrounds it. When the story that pretexts a combat and the fallout of the results of that fight are vastly more important than the fight itself. Then again, I'm very much a simulationist and I believe that narrative is the product of good simulation and since that I've noticed that narrative cannot create believable simulation ever.
#17 tarlss Mar 15, 2007 13:25:56	The worst part of the auto-capture is that, oh god, it's boring. You know how it is. The DM spends 30 minutes being boring over his ego trip. You spend 30 minutes to an hour discussing an escape plan. It takes the rest of the game session to implement it. You wind up starting back up where you did before. Nothing whatsoever significant happened. BG, NWN, and FF solve this all by NOT BEING BORING. Cut scenes are entertaining because they are done by talented artists and voice actors. Make some points, cut it off. Time yourself. The Capture: Don't drag this out. Just don't. No one likes combats that are dragged out. Don’t send five bajillion goblins to wear them down because, oh god, that's boring. If you're planning an autocapture, send in overwhelming forces and beat down with no questions asked. Is your party 5th level? Use TIMESTOP. They'll get the point. Sometimes it's best to present the deal in plain English. "Guys, you don't stand any chance given the 10000 goblins, even if you are 5th level. This is a cut scene deal, so pony up unless you can present me a good anti-10000 goblin strategy in 5 minutes or less." Honesty is good. The worst part of auto capture is that you waste so much time in the capture phase because the players have some kind of false hope that it isn't anything more than a plot contrivance. Sorry guys, it is. By the way, make it clear, when you start DMing, that you will use plot contrivances like this. HAVE A POINT. This was automatic. When the players succeed in escaping, they should have something more than their freedom. Perhaps a shiny new bauble, the plans to the villain's nefarious plot, or having confronted an old enemy (Not the main villain) and killed him Escape plan: The worst part of autocapture is that you have to do what the DM says or "Stay in prison forever!" IE, DO NOTHING FOR THE REST OF THE GAME. Instead, present an alternative solution. Give them 2 options: Wait, or escape. If they choose wait, fast forward toward a nice trial or execution or rescue scenario. If they just want to rot in jail, say, "You spend 2 years in jail. Continue to wait?" By then everyone's forgotten about them, the villain's won, and you can continue your campaign under the "Heroes Failed This Adventure" Category. Move on. This should take 5 minutes of deliberation. Not boring. As to escape, don't be boring. Featureless dungeons, statless guards, fights with clubs in our underwear- we've seen it before. Make it interesting. Like any dungeon, there should be traps, unique monsters, treasure and cool stuff. Just run them through a lower level dungeon. Finally, because this is a key adventure point, something that will take an entire adventure to complete, there damn well better be a big bad boss at the end, and killing him should be really neato. Too often you're fighting nameless guards with chains and shovels and yawning. Now, killing a red dragon with nothing but a shovel enchanted by the magical latrine- now that's an adventure you're going to talk about. Too often, an autocapture scenario is a DM Ego Trip-Discipline Time. Well, it should be the reverse. The players should learn that their PCs are still heroes, even when stripped of equipment. If your players are still kicking butt and saving the world while naked, that's awesome. It's just that the 'dread' version of the autocapture scenario is too often a detour rather than a progression.
#18 pinch Mar 15, 2007 19:45:00	Okay I have a few things to say: A lot of people seem to be saying, "Auto-capture doesn't suck when I do it." Yes it probably does. And you're only encouraging more people to do it. I didn't say it was always absolutely wrong without exception; I even went into specific detail on how to do it with as little trauma as possible, and mentioned several ways to avoid it. No one commented on any of this. I've played every game under the sun. Every time my guys get captured it's lame. BG 2 is one of the dumbest; players are poisoned (where's my saving throw?), laughed at and tortured by villain, given uber power through deus ex and allowed to escape by the villains. Yes, it's one of the best D&D games ever but that's it's low point. And there are many great games which do not rely on auto-capture scenarios. Just because everyone does it does not mean it's a good idea. Think outside the box people. The prison escape always seems like a great fun idea to the DM. Players may not agree. Just like a DM who loves devious puzzles won't have a lot of success with a group who hates them. It's not even moderately hard to design a prison from which there is no hope of escape without outside assistance, especially for lower level characters. This forces the DM to build intentional flaws into the dungeon, which will show up to experienced PCs as bright flaming red beacons. Verisimilitude is ruined.
#19 remoray Mar 16, 2007 1:44:36	There is a third way of the capture occurring--off-scene. Essentially, the GM declares that the PCs have been captured and the adventure starts with them already incarcerated. Instead of the adventure starting in an inn, it starts in a cell. As for the torture, the purpose need not be to generate antagonism towards the villain. Other options include: 1) introductions. This is a good opportunity for the villain to introduce themselves, reveal background details, etc 2) reverse interrogation. A crafty PC can trick the interrogator into revealing more information then they intend. 3) exposing the backgrounds of specific PCs. If any PC has a dark secret, this is a good opportunity to draw it out. Note that just because a character has a secret, the player might be relishing the role-playing opportunities of having that secret exposed. As for the breakout, the real opportunity here is the shift in focus away from the PCs' usual 'toys' onto a PCs more inherent abilities. Unarmed combat specialists shine under these conditions. Every now and then it is good to test your character's abilities when they are most vulnerable.
#20 neostrider Mar 19, 2007 2:37:15	Bob, I love your narration. In fact, I think I'll use that tonight. Taking choices away from characters is always frustrating. Even providing the illusion of a choice can backfire when they take the best option and it still doesn't work. The best way to pull off an auto-capture is to either explain to your characters that they've already been captured. As long as you gave a long and detailed and REASONABLE explanation about how it happened maybe they'll get over it. The only thing worse then being forced into a situation is to waste a hour of pointless and hurtful dice rolling that makes your character seem inept at everything they try doing. Telling them once that their characters fought valiantly but the demon horde wouldn't stop until finally their character succumbed to hours of exhaustion is kind of heroic. Tell the fighter he stayed standing and trading blows with dozens of demons, killing several before the sun finally set and his muscles finally screamed, "STOP!" and finally blacked out. He sounds like the best fantasy novel hero there ever was, he just had bad luck. DON'T TELL THEM "Give me an attack roll. You miss. Another. You miss. Miss, Miss miss miss miss." The only thing worse than being told you've been captured is being captured after failing to do the one thing your character's built to do over and over again. Try this. With a good story about how the party fell that highlights each of the character's abilities their characters will probably feel a lot better than making them fail at every good idea they have. As for the escape scenario, maybe the BBEG (what’s this stand for anyway?) used a lot of summoned monsters. BAM! There’s why there's no CR 10 monsters in the basement. Spell expired. Maybe he sent them out to sack a village or something. The reason the big monsters weren't there could be a hook into the next adventure, or maybe they're the boss fight of the escape attempt, only this time the party knows their tactics or ambush them instead. If they kept the noise down they can repay their ambushers with an ambush. Or maybe the villain sets them free after taking what he needs with them or with some kind of curse or subtle trickery involved. While everyone's knocked out maybe he cursed them all in funny ways, or has possessed one of them. As for stealing the party's equipment or dealing serious unhealable damage, explain to your characters that they can either A) find it in the prison or B) if they never find it then they'll have to quest once or twice to find replacements. A good question to ask them is "What defined your character, his abilities or his weapon's abilities?" They'll probably blush and whimper slightly that the equipment merely helps a lot. Give them a couple of easy adventures after this one, and roll twice for treasure. A 10th lvl PC who defeated a horde of trolls that recently sacked an important treasury would probably find some brand new weapons the troll's may have splurged on or parts of the treasure may have been missing when they got there, according to the rouge of course. Part of this is how your characters expect to play. I made sure all my players knew that I was going to be gritty and reserved the right to do whatever I thought made a good story and they accepted that. Its led to some amazing roleplaying scenes. One character walked to meet an evil party by himself once just to let the others have a chance to escape. I let a lvl 4 fighter with a medium magic weapon take on a CR 7 dragon by himself. Both cases, the player escaped amazingly (the evil party he met was only at half strength because the others were going to ambush NPCs the other players left with) and the other won! (Stalactites for cover vs the breath weapon and when the dragon reached around the stalactite to bite the player crit for over half the dragon's HP in one hit) Whats more, my players knew I'd let their character die right there and make them roll up new ones. Thats something I made them accept when I let them play, and when they succeded they jumped up and down more than any other game I played in. The higher the risk you put your players at, the more exciting the outcome will be.
#21 shatteredtower Mar 20, 2007 19:23:35	And you're only encouraging more people to do it. To be fair, telling people that it shouldn't be done never works either. It's like telling them that blue cannot be used as the primary colour in a painting. Let's look at the suggestions, however. Starting from the premise that there's a wrong and a worse way was probably not very productive, but there's some good advice in here: 1. Consider alternative means of making the villain hated (complete with suggestions). 2. Make sure that the terms of imprisonment measure could be deemed meaningful by your villain's standards. If the resources used to capture the party exceed those used to contain the party by too great a margin, some rethinking needs to be considered. 3. Making the players feel they're being punished for events that they cannot influence is bad. If you must capture them, do not leave them with irreversible negative conditions. 4. Player characters should not be forced into a passive role as witnesses. The downside is the bias that comes with these statements. The mandatory capture was remarkably common in 1st and 2nd Edition, have being employed in several Dragonlance, Ravenloft, and Dark Sun adventures, and proved highly unpopular with many players. It was not universally despised, however, which just goes to show that the first rule a DM should observe for such scenarios is: Know Your Players. That means knowing what they'll accept, what bait they'll take even against their better judgment, and when exactly you're pushing them too far. It may be necessary to pause the scene or to pull in the reins on certain excesses or to communicate possibilities better to the players. Having every villain taunt and torture captive PCs gets old quickly, even if the captivity came about because of player mistakes. Change up styles, going from the strong, silent type to the blowhard to the shrieking coward. Don't be afraid to let the players score points -- or to know when they do so. If the villain personally strikes a helplessly imprisoned character, make it clear that the player (and character) is being rewarded, not punished, for getting under the villain's skin. It's a costly prize and not an assured one, but make it clear that it's been earned if it comes. Allow for the possibility that the villain might hesitate or otherwise show doubt, even when holding all the cards. Consider opportunities whereby they might trip the BBEG up verbally, where any secrets spilled come about because the PCs outmaneuvered their foe, not just because it was scripted. Torture and interrogation sessions do not have to be played out helplessly either. All the social skills come into play, even for the unskilled. Bluff can be used to fake unconsciousness or to manage to deceive the inquisitor. Intimidate might unnerve a torturer enough to make careless mistakes, maybe even mislay a tool that could be palmed and later used to aid an escape. Diplomacy might let you bargain for a better deal with jailors or torturers, though the price might still be unacceptable. It might even give you a chance to make a captor more sympathetic, possibly even to the point of letting their guard down around you -- the equivalent "taking risks for you" on the Diplomacy chart. Can a cleric successfully pray for higher level spells during a torture session? Can a sorcerer best sleep deprivation strategies well enough to pull together a full eight hours of rest? Can a rogue manage to sneak around within the cell complex, disabling restraints (especially those on the spellcasters) and sneak back without being observed -- with the possibility of making it seem that everyone is kept safely locked up until the party is truly ready to move? Can a raging barbarian shatter a rack, and will the torturer need a bit of a lie-down even after subduing the uncooperative guest? Players have no end of sources for means by which they can draw inspiration, especially if they're not particular. The Last Boy Scout shows someone not taking captivity lying down. (Another example can be found with Deathstroke's incarceration in DC's Green Arrow.) The Princess Bride is also noteworthy for such things on at least two occasions, one of which does seem completely hopeless. Watchmen, by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, is also worth a look (the "Ghosts" issue in particular). With the second method the DM has an NPC or group of NPCs rescue the party, or perhaps some magical form of aid comes to them from some unexpected source. The purpose here is usually to introduce the PCs to some important plot characters and/or to impress them with the "awesomeness" of an NPC. In reality all that is going on here from the party's standpoint is that the DM is playing with himself. A better option is to temporarily grant one of the PCs extraordinary abilities that will allow them to escape; it's still stupid but at least the party will feel some sense of accomplishment. This statement is true only within a very narrow field of vision. Where it goes wrong is in assuming that NPC rescuers must be deus ex machina, rather than resources. Yes, having the NPC bust in, laugh heartily, and whisk the PCs away deprives the players of the opportunity to do anything meaningful, but it's a disservice to the potential NPC(s) offer to such scenarios to suggest that this is the best one can hope for from them. Yes, the villain's beautiful daughter (nephew, stepmother, hairdresser...), ambitious lieutenant, resentful servitor, jealous toady, cunningly disguised adversary, or pet bulette are all clichés, but their assistance should be something the players must recruit, rather than have dumped upon them. It must be up to the players to inspire, coax, seduce, convince, dupe, cajole, bribe, terrify, or otherwise persuade such individuals to aid them -- and such aid should not be sufficient in and of itself to get the party out. An eight-year-old half-orc princess is not going to be able to do much, what she can do isn't likely to be done well, and she may even prove an obstacle at times, but if the players can use also her as a resource in some small but meaningful way, great! Allies that are not entirely reliable, whether because they're not terribly capable or likely to stab you in the back, make for the most meaningful challenge. As for the contrived escape, please consider the fact that your BBEG is: a) unlikely to have seen The Great Escape, b) likely to leave prison management to underlings, and c) almost certainly biased by personal abilities and experiences. That last point is critical. Brilliant as a balor is, the power of flight and ability to teleport at will make it likely to underestimate, for example, the likelihood that an unprotected halfling might attempt to navigate through narrow, volcanic fissure hot enough to sear humanoid flesh. The warlord might underestimate a PC's ability to convince antagonistic prisoners to cooperate adequately in a bid for freedom -- and to uncover snitches that would sell the operation out. (Again, this allows NPCs to be used as PC resources.) And even the most paranoid may underestimate the party's ability to create and exploit some sort of treachery. None of this comes for free to the players: the social skills (including Gather Information and Sense Motive) are more likely to work when supported by other displays that inspire would-be allies. I mention these resources because they are tools a DM should consider any time the player characters are captured, even if it could have been avoided. The opportunities available to captured PCs should not be overlooked, which is why the party should not be required to use any particular resource to escape. If they find their own way, great! The best praise you can offer is to let them know that you'd never considered that possibility. Maybe they'll even make enemies out of the people who could have helped them escape, ones who hate them the way the DM wanted the players to hate the BBEG! The most important problem with the auto-capture scenario, however, is this: it lends itself readily but poorly to DM laziness. It will not work well unless the DM is willing to put a lot of work into it -- and into making the players aware of how much their actions are worth, even when they do not lead directly to escape. Rescuing the NPC does not always lead to such opportunities. It is even prone to backfiring horribly at times. The lone wolf syndrome can be triggered by such things. Players who've lost several PCs without a complaint have occasionally been known to lose all interest in the game the moment a beloved NPC is hurt. (Remember rule one: Know your players.) I don't favour auto-capture either, but the cheatless method is not so lacking in merits as has been claimed. A visit from the Dark Lord himself tells players in no uncertain terms that they're not going to be shielded from overwhelming threats -- some of which keep their phone number on file. It can be a useful tool for shaking players out of the assumption that every encounter must be winnable -- or the assumption that the "final boss" would never come looking for them until it was too late.
#22 sroblin Mar 20, 2007 21:56:39	I think the (rather inflammatory) accusation has been leveled that all of those defending auto-capture scenarios are DMs who enjoy tyrannizing their players, and deluding themselves that the player's feel reciprocal enjoyment. I should like to clarify for my part that I have run one auto capture, but played in (or observed) many more, and I feel that will be true of others here as well. The argument may become somewhat subjective here about who likes what, but I feel I can say from my experience that while auto-capture can be frustrating, I feel it is unfair to generalize them as being 'rarely fun for anyone'. My own experience has been that they are fun if well done, and potentially full of drama, humor, and excitement. I find the argument that 'real prisons wouldn't have flaws' to remain invalid, because in real life there are real prisons that highly motivated, well organized, or simply lucky people actually manage to break out of. (Think of escape stories in World War II, or even in Iraq today). Yeah, it's hard and rare in the real world, but the heroes of a fantasy game are exactly those who should be capable of doing it. The fact that heroes have the combination of good luck/circumstances and extraordinary capability to break out of jail, and that powerful villains make the sort of errors or have the bad luck to allow it to happen, is no different from the sorts of circumstances and improbability that make heroic adventurers capable of defeating overwhelming foes anyway. Good design here is critical, and more contrived escapes less enjoyable, but I maintain that a well earned breakout is a lot of fun, and shouldn't necessarily feel easy or inevitable. Perhaps the autocapture scenario strains the verisimilitude for some, but then why doesn't the fact that the PCs somehow manage to avoid being overwhelmed by the enormous resources of the enemy nearly 100% of the rest of time not strain one's sense of reality? From my perspective, both as a player and a DM, players dealing with situations where they can't win directly or immediately, feels more realistic, and makes final victory (in the campaign) feel less inevitable and more exciting. While auto-captures can be handled in arbitrary and unrealistic manners, I think auto captures bother people mostly because they step overtly on their sense of autonomy and agency as a player when the DM creates an encounter that they are mechanically incapable of securing victory. Certainly a general sense of freedom is important to playing in general, but I feel that auto-capture is useful situation for a number of reasons: A) it can take away a bit from the sense of invincibility/invulnerability that parties often come to feel in a game that is fundamentally about them winning nearly always, no matter the odds (because the odds always just happen to be right...) B) creates interesting and sometimes dramatic and suspenseful roleplaying opportunities; and it does the players interesting opportunities to get to know the villains, gain insights into their personality, and develop their own 'relationships' towards their enemies C) (in better prison break outs) forces PCs to adapt creatively to highly adverse and unusual situations where they cannot depend on their (expected) overwhelming super powerfulness, and D) is a classic scenario from heroic adventures which can be fun re-create through our own characters. While there is some potential for poor design and abuse on the parts of DMs in creating these scenarios, (and Pinch has outlined a number of things to avoid), and some players may be unwilling to accept the loss of freedom inherent in the scenario, I feel that I have outlined reasons why many players still find this situation an acceptable and fun part of a roleplaying game. I should qualify and clarify that autocaptures are fun so long as the players are offered opportunities to make some meaningful decisions and interesting roleplaying. If auto-captures were always simply extended DM cut scenes which railroad PCs to their next standard combat encounter, than I would agree with Pinch, but a good 'capture' scenario allow PCs deal in their own ways with the situation as befits their character- whether that be crafty cunning, stubborn martyrdom, treacherous duplicity, or brooding vindictiveness (to name a few).
#23 werral Mar 22, 2007 8:01:14	I agree with Sroblin. It's pretty unrealistic that PCs only bump into monsters of appropriate CR. Still being outclassed is not necessarily synonymous with being useless. For example a low-level party that successfully escapes a Khyton might feel like they earned a victory, especially if they help a vulnerable NPC to escape (and I would award XP). The Ringwraiths in LOTR are way above the hobbit's (and even Strider's) CR at the beginning of the story and that's cool. If 2000 orcs attack a party of low level adventurers and capture them then they should feel a sense of victory for putting up a good fight and there could be a great adventure trying to escape ( a dungeon which is actually a dungeon, ie a prison) and warn the town before the army falls on it. Heroic failure can be cool - think Indiana Jones, "and now what was briefly yours is now mine", or Empire Strikes Back (the best Star Wars movie and they get trounced). Darth Vader's totally unfair CR wise. Still I'd avoid cheating. One of the advantages of pen and paper RPG's over computer RPGs is that you have greater freedom of choice. Also give back for what you take away! The 1st level paladin charged a Balor and got dropped to -8 by it's AoO? So later he has a cool looking scar (maybe it glows whenever he uses Smite Evil) and his name becomes sung it bards as the kid who faced the demon. (Plus it'll be great at high levels when they meet again). When drastically outclassed I'd award XP to PCs for even wounding the enemy (or slowing them down so the rogue can escape) or whatever.
#24 scipio Mar 26, 2007 6:20:51	I've used auto-captures a few times in the past, often times without even much of a fight (I did allow a spot check, and if succeeded, the PCs could react and possibly avoid the whole thing.) The thing is that none of my players have ever complained. In fact most of them flat out said they loved the scene. The trick was, as was mentioned before, just describe the holding cell and leave it to them to figure things out. Let them get themselves out, and make sure they can get their equipment back, without it being stupid. IE, no putting their stuff conveniently on a table just outside the cell. If handled well, the players will usually really get into the scene and forget that they had little choice in the matter.
#25 holy_beholder Mar 27, 2007 18:38:25	Actually, they don't even necessarily need to escape, if they have powerful NPC allies, who they have helped/saved earlier. They just need to get the message to them. There are some spells for this, and then there are familiars. I put my PCs into an auto capture position, the rogue escaped, but was soon caught, but provided enough of a decoy for a certain hawk to get away and with news. Random adventures randomly busting in and saving random prisoners is a bit irritating though. Yes, it was dues ex machina, but it happened because the hawk told them where to go, what the threats were, etc. Eventually the players got to return the favor, this time because of an animal companion with a scroll on it. It evened out.
#26 elsydeon Apr 02, 2007 18:38:39	People are far too attached to their equipment, I think. And that's what makes the auto capture frustrating to most people. I think magic items in D&D are overdone anyway. Exceptions made for spellcasting materials. My group house rules Eschew Materials as a class feature for all spellcasters, and no spellbook/holy symbol is required. Mechanically the same, without the Achilles heel that nobody would use in game anyway because it makes that player feel like they're playing a commoner for the session(s).
#27 steevo Apr 02, 2007 22:40:13	I've used auto-captures a few times in the past, often times without even much of a fight (I did allow a spot check, and if succeeded, the PCs could react and possibly avoid the whole thing.) The thing is that none of my players have ever complained. I think the key point here is that you gave your players a spot check (more importantly, one that would have made a difference if anyone had succeeded.) I'm assuming from the rest of your post that none of them did succeed, but they were still left with the notion that they had some potential to influence things, they just failed to notice it in time. That's the way auto-captures ought to be done. Take your time, think out the ambush, determine what the PCs can do to notice it or escape from it and make contingencies for each. Some may say it's not an auto-capture if there's a chance the PCs could escape, and that's fair enough, really. Auto-captures with no chance for escape whatsoever are the ones that really tick people off, but even worse (imho) are the ones that by rights should not have succeeded, but did only because the DM overrules the PCs' ability to fight back. Both of these flawed techniques can be avoided by putting a little forethought into the scene ahead of time.
#28 getgoldcardsoul Apr 03, 2007 17:32:26	Last night the DM whom I respect and admire inflicted one of the most horrid contrivances in all of game-dom on the party: the auto-capture scenario. The party was railroaded into an un-winnable encounter with overkill monsters, laughed at by the BBEG and tortured, and then allowed to easily escape through deus ex machina, minus all our good equipment. Ouch. I feel for you. If it makes you feel any better... well, actually, that's not as bad as what my "god" did to me ("god" being just a GM that insisted to be called "god" of the game. I facetiously obliged). Imagine everything the quoted paragraph just said... but a twist. We were railroaded into a room, the door was barred, and the dining room gassed with a hideously low chance to stay awake. Everyone was captured. Good characters were slain (no chance of escape), the evil characters were forced to work for the BBEG, and the neutral characters were imprisoned with the choice to join or die (becoming undead pawns either way, but "joining" meant sentient undead). End of campaign. But that entire game was not about the player's having fun, it was about the GM's superiority complex. I really should have known better and left, but it was my first RPG and I didn't realize how much of a weirdo the GM was being. Imagine my reaction when finally glancing at several "WORST DM/GM EVA!!!" threads. Then, I knew just what I had dealt with. So... what's your opinion of that take? :D
#29 sroblin Apr 05, 2007 15:12:20	The thing is in such situations, if you go to a lot of trouble planning an intricate capture scenario, and then it doesn't happen because somebody rolled well on the spot check- well, that's just not very efficient or fun. If you're put a lot of effort into the capture, or the storyline depends on the capture, then the auto-capture should be designed to make escape virtually impossible. Yes, players should have 'due process'-and if the players put up an unexpectedly tough fight and show off some creativity and future planning, well that makes it much more rewarding- but a spot check or a few lucky rolls should not be able to stop capture if that's the DMs intent (and if it did, then the DM planned poorly.) One consideration, however, is that you may need to compromise a bit on the capture if your players manage to surprise you in a particularly clever manner and escape. The scenario should be designed to be unwinnable, but if they clearly outfox the attempt, then it doesn't pay to be too (obviously) heavy handed in forcing their captures anyways. Just prepare a new and better snare.
#30 zombiegleemax Apr 06, 2007 1:18:45	I'm against the Railroading DM style. The topic creator is merely elaborating on a common type of railroading which he has coined, "Auto-Capture". The Auto-Capture scenario, as with most other examples of railroading the PCs, does not need to occur to accomplish what the DM desires. Unless of course what the DM desires is to railroad the PCs. That said, I do not think ill of those who railroad. It is a perfectly acceptable style when it meshes with the desires of the PCs. Communication is key. If they like a more "DM narrates a story" style over a "PCs drive the story" then railroading would be found a positive thing.
#31 roxlimn Apr 06, 2007 11:31:36	I hardly ever have to engineer an auto-capture scenario. PCs hardly ever know when it's time to run from an enemy they can't handle directly. I usually have more capture scenarios than I know what to do with. Gods! When will players ever learn that not every encounter is going to be level appropriate?!?!?
#32 tiberia Apr 06, 2007 15:21:29	I have devised some "auto-capture" scenarii to get around TPK. If the PCs get TPKed, but their HPs are still above minus 10, then they wake up in jail. If they come up with an escape plan, fine, we can play it out. After a few failed escape attempts, I will probably be tempted to send some deus ex machina NPCs to rescue them. I agree, it is a bodge, it makes the game-Universe stuck together with spit and string. I really ought to make TPK mean TPK. But on the other hand, the game is supposed to be about fun.
#33 aelryinth Apr 06, 2007 19:47:13	The worst part of the Railroad Capture is that it violates at least a dozen tenets of the Evil Overlord list to keep the PCs alive. ==Aelryinth
#34 Keenath Apr 07, 2007 23:33:05	All games are on rails; it's just a question of how visible the rails are and how many switching stations he puts in. It's not a black and white question, but a matter of degree. If you have five possible leads for the players to follow, that's five rails -- not freedom. The essence of storytelling is to have a story to tell, and that means the PCs are going to have to follow, to some degree. On the charge that players are too attached to their possessions, I challenge you to go steal somebody's car, and when they get mad, tell them not to be so attached to their possessions. Possessions are a powerful part of a character's identity. A signature weapon is a powerful symbol -- Arthur and Excalibur; Thor and Mjolnir; Aragorn and Narsil; Elric of Melniboné and Stormbringer. Virtually no player would complain loudly if you stripped him of his potions or took away his ring of featherfall -- but touch his favorite sword or the suit of armor he's been upgrading for ages, and you'll have an irate player! Now, that said, I tend to agree with the original poster; auto-capture is generally a bad idea. However, note that a game that STARTS with an capture, isn't really an auto-capture. That's just the "escape from prison/slavery" scenario. The players aren't stripped of control to put them in the situation; it's just how the game opens. On the "realistic CR issue": Yes, it's true that it's unrealistic to have PCs always run into things of their CR. However, the DM's job is to set up overwhelming encounters such that the players don't blunder into them. A useful method is to have the PCs fight some monster and win with some injuries. Then you let them notice the big monster in a similar situation, and let them see it mopping the floor with them. For example, the party might fight a pair of hellhounds and come out a bit damaged, but okay. Then, a few minutes later, they can run into a tableau where a Frost Giant slaughters a pack of six in a few rounds. The PCs now know not to antagonize the giant, because he clearly outclasses them. Careful DMing allows you to present overwhelming opponents as puzzles or skill challenges, without putting the PCs into the position of having to fight-or-surrender.
#35 nidair Apr 08, 2007 6:22:03	The first method is a hard sell because when a DM uses frost giants to capture the party it makes no sense that their jailors are goblins. Or if you have been suppressing certain spells or abilities of the players up until now in order to keep them confined, you'd better have a good reason why they are suddenly working again. Maybe not giants working for goblins, but imagine what happens when a kobold shaman found a scroll of Planar Binding? A Barbazu is send out to kidnap the pc's and demand some ransom for them but finds out it's so easy he slays the shaman and tries out for himself, this time kidnapping all the inhabitants of a palace. As for the "my abilities don't work anymore!" The Citadel of the Planes (from the Stronghold Builder's Guide) had Veils of Obscurity on every inch of the keep. It won't surprise me if some monastery has Dead Magic Fields littered all over the place, but deep underground some of them fail to work properly. Though these are examples of how overwhelming odds can be incorporated in an entertaining way, my advice is still not to bother with auto-captures unless you really need to, like: it was the last session of the campaign Maybe it's not the best way to end a campaign, but saving the world for the 24th time becomes boring :P
#36 Qube Apr 08, 2007 12:21:40	Actually, when I DM, I use another tacttic: I just tell the players, "Okay, people, in this encounter your all going to be captured, so don't use valuable resources ..." They appreciate this, and makes the game more enjoyable: Nothing is more annoying then using expensive resources and then finding out that it was all for nothing, and if they now that the outcome if fixed, they can try out their tricks, that they usually wouldn’t. Oh, and I still give XP for each killed enemy, so the encounter isn't for nothing. And I never ever EVER throw a Balor at a level 10 party. Knowing the players I have: - one will strike a deal with it, - the other will trick it, - the third will try and kill it and fail, killing himself in the process - the forth player will take about an hour to think what his next move will be - and the last player will actually defeat it single-handed
#37 scipio Apr 09, 2007 1:44:45	The thing is in such situations, if you go to a lot of trouble planning an intricate capture scenario, and then it doesn't happen because somebody rolled well on the spot check- well, that's just not very efficient or fun. If you're put a lot of effort into the capture, or the storyline depends on the capture, then the auto-capture should be designed to make escape virtually impossible. Yes, players should have 'due process'-and if the players put up an unexpectedly tough fight and show off some creativity and future planning, well that makes it much more rewarding- but a spot check or a few lucky rolls should not be able to stop capture if that's the DMs intent (and if it did, then the DM planned poorly.) One consideration, however, is that you may need to compromise a bit on the capture if your players manage to surprise you in a particularly clever manner and escape. The scenario should be designed to be unwinnable, but if they clearly outfox the attempt, then it doesn't pay to be too (obviously) heavy handed in forcing their captures anyways. Just prepare a new and better snare. I agree with this. A lucky spot roll shouldn’t just outright stop the capture, I usually just let it mean that they spotted the bad guys and can try to fight their way out. However, the bad guys have the advantage, higher ground, numbers, etc.
#38 elondir Apr 09, 2007 13:43:13	Auto-Capture is risky at best (a la Scourge of the Slave Lords) and a grand mess up at worse. Only use it when all the following apply: Don't use a TPK combat to capture them. Instead use a series of cunning and complex traps, or better yet, put them in a situation where they have to surrender or one of their loved ones (or the world, or anything else dear to them) suffers. If you think a combat is the best way, hit them with enough strength damage, subdual damage, paralysis effects, sleep spells, or hold person spells that they drop within a couple of rounds. Have a trap-and-puzzle-centric dungeon planned for the escape with only a few weak monsters. Always hide their equipment in a room that they can find within three or four encounters. It should be trigger major plot events.
#39 black_kitten Apr 10, 2007 9:53:44	I think the point behind the auto-capture (not the escape following it), comes forth from motivation. If a villain has the proper motivation and recourses to secure an auto-capture, or the villain is high enough a level that he gets to it himself, that should be something he'd do. Similarly, it is not the DM's responsibility to ensure every encounter is winnable. PCs can bite off more than they can chew. This should become obvious before they tick off the BBEG too much, but at the same time, we all know that PCs can be very, very stubborn. And especially unwilling to let go of their objective unless it is completed. So in my campaigns, my PCs are often 'corrected' by the BBEG and shown that he is still too strong for him. Villains, however, are not perfect either. Prisoners are a hassle, killing adventurers outright an invitation for higher-level ones to come after you. Beating the PCs up and letting them go with the firm warning that the next time it'll be their death could be the best way to go for a villain. Therefore, auto-captures can be a reminder of the strength of the opposition, perhaps in ways even a critical opportunity to gain insight in the villains plans, base of operations and the chance to have a face-to-face conversations. If anything, that will improve your chances of a successful scry.
#40 ShadowDragon8685 Apr 11, 2007 8:10:40	I share my own experiences of being Auto-Captured. Consider this case in point of why it's bad. Auto-Capture 1: Playing a Lillend with some fairly nice martial skills in a normal adventuring party, we roamed the land, stripping an area of goblins and were-rats and other nasties, oh my, and making ourselves rich to boot. We get to an Inn, and the DM tells us a bard is playing on-stage. I ask how good he is, he tells me to roll a Perform check to judge - natch 20, I ascertain that this clown is no real bard. Being a Lillend, I find this slaughter of music to be a crime, so while the rest of the party is arranging ale and wenches, I take out my harp and proceed to give a lesson in barding. The fake bard smiles, says I'm very good, then the DM tells us all to roll fortitude saves. No explanation. The party rolls, even the one with the really huge Fort save who rolls a 19 fails. I ask, "Is this poison?" He says yes it is - Racial Immunity. It doesn’t matter that I'm racially immune to poison, and that yes, this is a poison. Roll. I roll. Natch 20. He says I fail, fall unconscious. I quote chapter and verse that a natural 20 on a saving throw is an auto-success. He grumbles at me. The fake bard turns into a 20th level, CE Sorceress, and fifty king's men bust into the Inn to beat me down and take me in. He dosen't roll for it, just says that I get Held Monstered and beaten down. So we're pitched into our cells, which are large to accommodate my huge snakey self. I proceed to merrily use my massive STR score and natural attack to batter down the door - again, a battalion of enemies, all around our level and packing Heroic class levels, rush in to subdue us. We're dragged before the King of the Land, a corrupt, level 25 Sorcerer (the sorceress is his bride, on his left), and we are told we WILL go through this portal and retrieve something for him, or we WILL die anyway. Well, we get shoved through the portal, we're on another plane. Since my character is from the Planar Handbook, I'm thinking, okay. Easy-peasy. I use Knowledge (The Planes) to determine that we're on a demi-plane bordering the Material and the Astral, and say I'll just use my Survival check and the Ranger's Survival check to lead the party to another portal. I'm told point-blank that if I do that, we all die of thirst and starvation. I point out that I need neither food nor drink, and that I can go for two days without resting, and that the rest can camp at the portal where the sorcerers and their soldiers can't go, while I go extraplanar and retrieve help. I'm told point-blank that if I try that, I'll be eaten by the carnivores of the waste. I ask why we can't hunt them with our Survival checks, and they become undead carnivores. Had I been older and wiser then, I would've just put my hand in the air and started chanting "Chugga-Chugga WHOOO WHOOOO" when I was told that my racial immunity didn't apply, and not stopped after that. As you can imagine, the rest of the party didn't take well to this auto-capture railroad. So, next scenario. I'm playing the same character - I like her, I reprised her for this one. Party full of Celestials and other miscellaneous heroes, tenth level. We have a problem with a whole bunch of half-celestials and other traditionally Good creatures going bonkers and trying to murder an entire town, which of course puts our party in the spotlight. We don't know WTF is going on, we put the beat down on some bad guys and try to figure out what's going on. A half-celestial Monk we captured gives us the low-down: The humans are Evil and must be destroyed, before they destroy everything. At this point, we figure her head's been messed with (we're right), so we ask to be taken to her leader. Bamf. Level 25 freaking Wizard NATURAL LYCANTHROPE (Werewolf). The DM says that we get caught up in his voice as he's explaining all of this, and we wake up on our way back to town to raze it, going "what was that?" I demand saving throws, so again, the DM plays the "DC is equal to whatever you can possibly roll, plus one" card. Whammo - Natural 20. Again, they try to ignore natural 20 rule, and I call him on it. My character Saves, and at this point I DEMAND to know the saving throw DC. He says it's like 40 or so. I nail him, and he says it's 38. So I perform that oft-neglected of Bardic tactics, Counter-Song, and my Perform check is stratospheric. Again, natural twenty. (I was on a roll.) So the DM grumbles and says everyone breaks free, including the monk, and naturally we attack the Lycanthrope - I manage to hit him with a touch attack and encircle him. His bites are gawdawful painful, but because I have high HP and he's relatively weak as melee combatants go, I'm able to hold him down and prevent him from casting. The DM says flat-out "I'm gonna wrath you all for ruining my plan", and has four level 15 spellcasters and a level 15 warrior bust in, devoted to the cause, and start spellblasting us. The party sorcerer gets us out with an emergency teleport, after I've been taken to negatives and turned to stone, and the rest didn't fare well, either. So, yeah. Resist the railroader, and tell the DM when he's being an arsehat.
#41 alder_fiter_galaz Apr 13, 2007 9:24:26	When I need to DM an auto-capture, generally the PCs start captured, so not rolling the capture is necessary. When the PCs are captured, generally it is after many tries for the villain minions. To let the PCs escape, I often give clues of a way to escape for them. I do not like to railroad the PCs, simply suggest a way for them to act. If a DM wants a capture for the PCs, successive attacks to weaken the PCs are better than a big overwhelming one.
#42 Noon Apr 14, 2007 20:10:15	The thing is, it's like play before was a good hearted tug of war between GM and players about what happens next. That works nicely, because no one is really in control - the game goes to places you'd never expect when no one is “in control.” But with the auto capture, the GM's got his end of the rope tied to a tractor. The result is obvious, boring and most of all it cheats on the agreement that it would be a tug of war, rather than a tug of the bleeding obvious result.
#43 Previn Apr 15, 2007 23:36:10	If in the original poster's case, the auto-capture had been more subtle, with the illusion of being winnable even if it wasn't, he wouldn't be here making the topic. He possibly wouldn't even have realized that he had been "railroaded" and would be talking instead about how they almost got away while planning a jail break. That's the only difference between the auto-capture and accidentally captured, really. What the players perceive it to be. If the player's don't even realize they've been "railroaded," what does it matter? I haven't seen anyone point out anything 'wrong' with an auto-capture short of upsetting the players.
#44 aquebman Apr 16, 2007 8:45:17	As a DM, I spend a lot of time preparing for the particular scenarios of my campaign, but I think there is one thing that at least in my group makes it fun, interesting, and the players remain happy. Keep it loose. If the plan is to capture the PCs, I plan around it and send a force capable of capturing depending on the situation. If the PCs thwart my plans, I as a DM should be able to freely off the cuff come up with something to continue the story, even if it's avoids most of my planning. I know for many DMs myself included this can be tough, and may even call for a 5 minute break in gameplay so I have time to think but in the end it leaves a taste like sweet candy in the players mouths no matter what happens, because they know their actions and the roll of the dice decides the outcome of their roleplaying session.
#45 chaoslords Apr 16, 2007 21:53:24	First, I hate it when players say, “The DM cheats." The way our group looks at it is this; The DM has two rules. Rule #1: There are no rules. Rule #2: Cheat anyways. The rules are there to give the players structure. I been one both sides of the DM Screen, granted it’s been awhile since I been on the DM side. But still, I know the DM pulls punches and allows hits to happen on bad rolls was it more dramatic to do so, yes. Perhaps he wanted the battle to go on one more round, or perhaps he didn't want the NPC to get the kill. But then our group hasn't had any TPK. And very rarely has more then one of our PCs died in the same fight. Ya we get powned pretty good now and again. But that’s part of the fun. Ya? It's no fun to roll over everything either. Whatever, my point is, the DM can't cheat, his job is to tell a story, and make it fun for the players. If you want a game where every thing is equal play chutes and ladders or something else. Roleplaying is suppose to be a big game of make believe with a random element thrown in. It makes sure this doesn't happen: "I killed you." "No you didn't" "Yes I did. Mom! Billy's not playing fair!" Now that I got the venting out of the way. I'll defend you by saying your DM did not keep his end of the bargain, because you didn't have a fun time. But I don't think the problem was the auto-capture. It was only part of the problem. We'll call the Auto-Capture, variable A. The problem was it was used with railroading (B), unbeatable monsters (C), taunting and torturing BBEG (D), and finally Deus ex machina (E). Each one of those elements alone doesn't make for a bad session, but A + B + C + D + E = X, does. X = unpleasurable gaming experience. Each one those variables separate and you can have a good or even great session, if used properly. Those debates rage on in other threads. But by adding them all together it makes it a lot harder fro DM to create a good story. I don't know, maybe I'm just a masochist when it comes to gaming. I don't mind it when my characters lose everything. Or feels helpless. I kind of like it. Does it suck? Yes. Is it frustrating? Yes. And despite the fact that I felt hopeless, frustrated and many other bad emotions, it feels twice as good to come out on top at the end. So, I think the true reason you didn't have a fun session was the Deus ex Machina ending. You never had the opportunity to come out on top in the end. The satisfaction of winning was given to you without you ever earning it. That was the true crime, IMO. There have been many session where I was fit to be tied. A couple times my DM thought he went too far I was so ticked. But when it was all said and done, and the smoke cleared, there we stood holding the proverbial victory trophy up high. Usually saying "Man that was fun" or Wow, was that an awesome adventure or what?" If I my quote Captain Malcolm Reynolds, "We've done the impossible and that makes us mighty."
#46 scipio Apr 17, 2007 18:36:05	I do gotta say I'm sorry that your DM is so, well, evil. I have to admit that an autocapture like that is a bad idea and can't be thought of as fun under any circumstance.
#47 sroblin Apr 18, 2007 9:32:29	Anecdotal accounts of autocaptures like the one I posted in my first reply or the one Shadow Dragon just wrote don't prove that 'auto-captures' are always good or bad. They just (at best) show how it can be bad. In Shadow Dragon's scenario the DM did a poor job planning for the natural resistance of the Lillend or the possibility that PCs might roll 20s. (To be fair, it can be hard sometimes to remember all of your PCs special abilities, whether it be auto-capture or a standard battle). How does one plan for PCs rolling 20s, you ask? Have them save against more than one effect. Also, sometimes its worthwhile to allow that last PC that just won't submit to escape- they've earned it! As for the DM arguing that if the Lillend went out alone, she'd get eaten- well, there's some sense to that. He's probably got a lot of encounters designed for an entire party to play- by soloing it against these obstacles, the Lillend would get her self killed (or else somehow overcoming/bypass them while the rest of the party does nothing). Proving anecdotally that 'auto-capture' is bad because some DMs mess it up is like trying to prove 'combat' is bad because sometimes DMs mess it up and there's a TPK. At best, you can prove that auto-captures are scenarios that are often messed up. I could then quote lots of scenarios where it worked out fine and pretend there were no potential problems with it at all. But that wouldn't getting us anywhere: sure, auto-capture scenarios are tricky and can be not fun or inappropriate. But sometimes they are fun and make for unique gaming opportunities.
#48 empirate May 02, 2007 11:31:23	I'd like to contribute my very own auto-capture scenario (ACS). I GMed a campaign set in medieval Europe, with no magic but a very few fantastical elements mixed in (werewolves, alchemy, some miracles). The group's main fighter was horribly injured in a fight (that he shouldn't have picked...), and I told the player he'd suffer grievous permanent effects. Then on stage came a medicus who offered to apply a new, untried medicine he had acquired in his journeys. The medicine was taken and helped greatly in a matter of weeks - however, it was also a drug that the character couldn't go without from now on. The decision was left with the player, and she was positively gratified that her character now had a drug habit. The medicus was pressed to reveal everything he knew, and he finally told them of a merchant who had sold him the bad stuff. The party found that merchant (months later), and learned that he worked for a great alchemist living in northern Italy, who had manufactured the drug and told the merchant to make sure it went to many many surgeons everywhere. The merchant had also been commanded to tell everybody who inquired about the drug the whereabouts of the alchemist, but the group didn't know that. Traveling to Northern Italy, the group discovered that the alchemist lived in a foreboding swamp, in an old, derelict castle, but decided to knock on his door and ask for help anyway. All this was part of the alchemist's intrigue: he wanted able-bodied fighting men (the ones most likely to get the bad stuff from a surgeon; all other comers would simply be refused...) to come from far and wide and find him. Then he would support their drug habit for loyal service. He had a cure, but he never revealed what it was unless there was very good reason. So the party knocked on his door, he opened it and said "welcome, travelers" and stuff, and all were being very civil. Still, the party couldn't leave, couldn't do anything against the alchemist, and when he decided to lock them up for complicated reasons, they daren't resist. A short time later the characters not suffering from withdrawal managed a prison break (not so difficult, the alchemist didn't need much security), but when they stood before the alchemist, he just extorted them with their friend's life... You see, the ACS was of a mild variety, but still very much automatic and very much a capture. The group nevertheless had the feeling they had made every important decision on their own, walked every step of the way, and didn't feel as if I had cheated them. Rather, finally finding the alchemist gave them a sense of accomplishment. They had had a choice in the beginning, and they felt they had just taken the wrong one. My point being: As a GM, make sure you know what choices your PCs are likely to make, and work with that. This way, the dreaded ACS doesn't feel like one. Oh, and if they happen to chose wisely, avoiding your trap, commend them and set another one.