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Building a Better RPG

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Nov 11, 2005 12:45:52 Building a Better RPG

Don’t let the title fool you, I think D&D is a great game. In fact, I think the d20 system is the best thing to happen to tabletop gaming period. Keeping this in mind, after years of playing and DMing, I think everyone has at one time or another thought of changes or additions that would improve the game, making it more fun. This is what I have been thinking about over the last little while… I play D&D because it is enjoyable, and I assume that’s why almost everyone else plays it too. Certain things however, have irked my group and I for a long time, and with some consideration, I think I’ve identified some things which may make an already great game that much better.

Now many of my suggestions are radical to be sure, and some might say that it would be best for my group and me to just pack up and switch to another gaming system. I think this is a mistake. Most of the things I am thinking about aren’t changes, but observations with a myriad of possible solutions. All of these are derivative from my attempt to get at the very core of what makes D&D the game we all love to play, and strip away those things that hamper or shadow that core. I’ll start with combat, and write something about roleplaying and general mechanics some other time (if you guys don’t bite my head off first!)

========================================

Combat is often considered the best part of the game, it certainly has the most rules devoted to it, and many groups work hard to get in as much combat per session as possible. It is fun and exciting to be sure, but what is‘FUN’ about the combat in D&D? This is what got me thinking in the first place, and I examined my own reasons for enjoying combat to help me come up with a list:

- The Strategy
- Overcoming difficult or seemingly insurmountable odds
- Picturing the action, especially your character doing cool stuff

These are the main things I find fun about combat when it gets right down to it. D&D facilitates each one of these things to a certain degree, which obviously varies depending on the style of your playgroup. A very descriptive DM will facilitate cinematic action better than one who just fires off the numbers as they come up like a computer; and an intelligent DM will generally offer a more comprehensive strategic challenge than someone with the brains of Mike Tyson. However, I want to try to get beyond these subjective considerations and look at the game system itself, how conducive is it to each of these points?

1) Strategy

No doubt D&D is a strategic game, the introductions of precise movement, more combat actions and the necessity of a grid make that obvious. The miniatures game provides even more evidence that the rules can be easily adapted to an entirely free-form strategy game. But all too often, it’s a simple matter of:

“Tordek moves 10ft. and smacks the orc with his greatsword.”

This in itself isn’t a bad thing. Sometimes that ugly orc just needs a face-full of greatsword. My problem is twofold however, (i) why does he just walk up and smack the orc so often? (ii) and why does Tordek almost always use the greatsword?

There certainly are lots of things he could do. He could bullrush the orc, grapple him, run up and trip him, ready to attack him if he moves, etc. But time and time again, he just runs up and digs his sword into the poor orc’s chest. I think that the reason is, most of these other options are either very confusing, or not viable enough to make them real options.

Grappling is a paramount example. In theory it seems like a good idea, allowing two people to wrestle. But why would Tordek want to enter into a grapple when he can just smack the guy? More importantly, why in the world would he want to subject himself to round after round of more or less nothing happening, and the ability to loose control in the grapple? The point is he wouldn’t. Unless Tordek is built specifically for grappling, tripping, bull rushing, etc. there’s almost no reason for him to perform any of these special combat actions.

Secondly, from a player’s perspective, whenever someone in my group does get into a grapple, immediately the books come out… go to the combat chapter, okay, grapple. This slows the game down every time. Part of the reason for this is that the rules just aren’t looked at that often. But the rules are somewhat convoluted as well. It’s annoying that you have to make so many checks for a grapple, and it’s confusing to determine exactly what you can do when. Of course in the end it is all figured out, but again, this takes time away from actually grappling in the game.

So why does Tordek always use that greatsword anyways? Well, it’s the best weapon of course… well, it deals the most damage anyways. There are a huge number of weapons in the Player’s Handbook, even more if you look at the supplements. Only a few are mechanically worth using, the rest should never be touched. Of course, for roleplaying purposes, I’ve had Orcish Paladins that use bastard swords, Elven Rangers that threw daggers, etc. Nevertheless, from a strategic and mechanical point of view, there’s no good reason for these builds.

2) Overcoming difficult or seemingly insurmountable odds

What do I mean by this? It’s fun to work together as a team and defeat the evil NPC wizard who’s several levels higher than the party and has a bunch of monstrous spiders at his command. On a more individual scale, it is also fun to roll that 20 on the die and realize that this last hit before falling unconscious will save the party from utter destruction. So what’s the problem here? This is just a built-in part of the game. This is true, but at higher levels, the problem is it takes longer to get to these fun bits. Well… not really longer, but more annoying…

As one goes up in level, one gains bonuses, everything goes up: BAB, Saves, etc. One also gets more and more attacks. What does this mean, one thing of course, that each person’s combat round takes longer and longer. They have to add up more and bigger numbers, and do it more times each round. This directly equals less fun for every other player at the table; because they have to wait, longer and longer each level before they get to do cool stuff again. As a group, this also equals less fun; because each combat takes longer, there are going to be less of them each session.

Second, lets take a look at some high-level play:

Tordek moves 5ft toward the Dragon and takes a full-attack action with, of course, his greatsword. Roll (10), roll (4), roll (18), roll (11)… +20/+15/+10/+5, +1 for Weapon Focus, +1 for Greater Weapon Focus, + 5 for Str, +4 for Magic = 41/30/39/27. Verses the evil Ancient Red Dragon, AC 39 --> 2 hits! Yes!

Now what’s the difference between this, and: Roll (10), roll (4)… +6/+1, +1 for Weapon Focus, +3 for Str, +1 for MW = 21/9. Verses the evil Young Dragon, AC 21 --> 1 hit! Yes!

Well, the combat round took at least 50% less time, which means that everyone else gets to go sooner. Actually, it probably took less than that, because there were fewer things to add up.

The point is that D&D is designed to be balanced at every level of play. So while the numbers on your character sheet get bigger and bigger and bigger, so do the numbers in the Monster Manual. High-level combat ends up taking far longer and is more complex, but there is little reason for this, unless you’re a mathematician and just like adding up really big numbers.

3) Picturing the action, especially your character doing cool stuff

So finally, what do I mean by this? Well, this is a combination of those above. The more the action in combat varies, the more varied and cinematic the action is going to seem when described. And the more often each character gets to go, the more opportunity to get right in there, contribute, and do great things. How often does the fight start, Tordek rushes in with his greatsword, and it’s over before most other characters get a chance to do anything?

So what’s the solution? I haven’t really suggested any in this post, just vaguely griped about certain things and hinted at what could be done. Obviously the game would be more strategic if there were more reason to use other weapons, and the varied combat actions. This amounts to perhaps a change of the rules regarding these actions, or upping the benefit from utilizing them. The game might also be more fun with a reduction in the number of attacks high-level characters get per round, or the speed at which bonuses are added. These changes would result in vast changes to the system, as everything would have to be re-balanced as a result. Would it make the game more fun? I think that the game can be improved, and I think that these are the points where the combat can be improved most of all. It may not amount to building a better RPG, but it will at least make the fun bits from our favourite one that much more fun.

- BvS
#2
Dan_Hemmens
Nov 15, 2005 6:02:05 I rolled my eyes and groaned when I saw the title of this thread (and I certainly don't think the D20 system is the best thing to happen to tabletop roleplaying, not when compared to Unknown Armies and Nobilis). But to your credit you clearly defined what you wanted from an RPG, and concisely explained how the present ruleset failed to deliver on it.

Problem 1, I think, stems as much from encounter design as anything else. Grappling the Orc is completely pointless if it's just going to thwack at you with a greatsword, but what about if it's holding a powerful magic weapon? It's possible that stopping it from using that item will be worth letting it stay alive for longer. Grappling an opponent is obviously not a good option if they're one grunt against many, but if they're about to cast the Vast Spell of Devastating Doom then it might be a good idea.

Problem 2 has, in my opinion, a very simple solution, but one that you probably won't like: Ditch XP. Pick a level you want to run a game at, and don't let the players advance beyond it (or, if you prefer, pick a run of about three levels).

Problem 3, similarly, strikes me as adventure design as much as anything else. If you have encounters that your Fighter just breezes through, then you need tougher encounters.
#3
zombiegleemax
Nov 17, 2005 16:15:26 Good points (although i don't necessarily agree on all of them), but I’d like to see some more practical solutions. Have you developed some way to balance the game as per your suggestions?
#4
winter_ayars
Dec 03, 2005 2:57:12 NOTE FOR MY PLAYERS: No reading this. It includes spoilers for next session.

I agree that encounter design has to be one of the biggest factors, here. Let me describe the rules used in the session I ran last Wednesday...

Readied action: an enemy (a very confused Revolutionary League berk in Sigil) was holding one of the PCs captive (tied up) and had a knife to his throat. "Back off or I'll cut him!"

(The PCs didn't, but that disaster was averted by another disaster...)

Bull rush: a bunch of beggars (recruited by the people in charge of the second disaster mentioned above) bull-rushed one of the sorcerers out of threat range of another enemy. The beggars were statistically not so great (-1 to hit, improvised weapons) but they managed to force an attack of opportunity and they continued to threaten the sorcerer to discourage him from casting spells. (Didn't quite go according to their plan, but it was a good plan!) This included some "aid another" trickery.

Grappling: Okay, this one I cheat on because the PCs' "minder" (a level 11 wu jen--the PCs are level 2, almost 3...) polymorphed into a behir and used the bite/improved grab combo on some of the enemies.

Okay, I’m missing some stuff I’m sure, but that's okay. This encounter is not over (it's a giant endurance-contest encounter wherein I’m going to teach my PCs that i, as the DM, determine when they can rest :D ) since we ran out of real-time to play. The projected continuation includes:

Sunder: Another "minder" character (a githzerai monk/fighter/shadowdancer) is going to show up and she wanders around with an adamantine greatsword and enjoys breaking everyone else's toys. Speaking of which, she also likes using grapple and will likely be using both of these on a rather nasty enemy who will be showing up in a little.

Furthermore, there have been many different tricks tried beyond "run up, smack the [insert monster] with a big slicey thing" (although there has been some of that) in this encounter. Including, but not limited to: sneak attack, calling for reinforcements, enemies of varying power levels (the beggar army running around getting in the PCs way while the "priority targets" beat up on the party), buff/debuff, ranged attacks to force certain actions (in other words: "fight me now or I'll pepper you with crossbow bolts!"), and lots of switching between weapons (including sometimes forced, at least one shortsword was shattered).

I think it's an exciting fight and I hope my players agree. (Although at least one of them wants to hurt me for being putting the party through the wringer... not entirely unjustified :D)

In my experience the way to avoid encounters like "See orc, run to orc, hit orc with greatsword, collect XP and treasure!" is to ask why you want to hit the orc. If it's simply to kill the orc as fast as possible then your greatsword will probably see some use--but is that really what you want? In the case of my encounter above the goal isn't to kill the enemies as fast as possible but to survive and use as few resources as possible. Now, a really good way to do that is to kill the enemies as fast as possible--but that's not necessarily going to involve running up and hitting things with greatswords.

For example, the Wu Jen minder could have fireballed the beggar army to death (10d6 vs. ~2-4 hp enemies packed together)--but then she would have caught the sorcerer in the fireball and that would have been bad. The sorcerer would have magic missiled the enemies, except this particular sorcerer is concentrating on using touch spells with the complete arcane draconic feats. The fighter (who ran up and tried to smash, though he missed, one of the enemies with his maul) was the one who was being held hostage by the Anarchists so he started the fight without his armor on--this drastically changed the mechanics of how he worked within the fight. With only a shield his AC drops dramatically. (And actually, I think this was a mistake on my part--I should have figured out a way to keep him in his armor... hindsight!)

So let me go back and re-ask the question: why do you want to hit the orc with a greatsword (or what have you)? I think that this being the "default" combat action isn't actually a bad thing, except for characters who specialize in one of the other options. It's the role playing that puts you into a situation in which the other options make sense. It's the role playing that contextualizes the mechanical combat.

And conversely, it's the mechanics that make the role playing make sense.

In D&D the two rely on each other in order to remain reasonable/predictable within the game world.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jan 04, 2006 13:47:17 Everyday skills, physical toughness, knowledge, and combat know-how are all related through the level system. Warriors swinging massive weapons while wearing heavy armor don't get tired. (There's a good reason why everyone does carry around greatswords ... or there should be.)

Hitpoints. Magical healing. Et cetera, et cetera.

None of these problems are likely to change. They're all sacred cows. Why do you think Magic Missile is still in the game?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Nov 11, 2005 12:45:52	Building a Better RPG Don’t let the title fool you, I think D&D is a great game. In fact, I think the d20 system is the best thing to happen to tabletop gaming period. Keeping this in mind, after years of playing and DMing, I think everyone has at one time or another thought of changes or additions that would improve the game, making it more fun. This is what I have been thinking about over the last little while… I play D&D because it is enjoyable, and I assume that’s why almost everyone else plays it too. Certain things however, have irked my group and I for a long time, and with some consideration, I think I’ve identified some things which may make an already great game that much better. Now many of my suggestions are radical to be sure, and some might say that it would be best for my group and me to just pack up and switch to another gaming system. I think this is a mistake. Most of the things I am thinking about aren’t changes, but observations with a myriad of possible solutions. All of these are derivative from my attempt to get at the very core of what makes D&D the game we all love to play, and strip away those things that hamper or shadow that core. I’ll start with combat, and write something about roleplaying and general mechanics some other time (if you guys don’t bite my head off first!) ======================================== Combat is often considered the best part of the game, it certainly has the most rules devoted to it, and many groups work hard to get in as much combat per session as possible. It is fun and exciting to be sure, but what is‘FUN’ about the combat in D&D? This is what got me thinking in the first place, and I examined my own reasons for enjoying combat to help me come up with a list: - The Strategy - Overcoming difficult or seemingly insurmountable odds - Picturing the action, especially your character doing cool stuff These are the main things I find fun about combat when it gets right down to it. D&D facilitates each one of these things to a certain degree, which obviously varies depending on the style of your playgroup. A very descriptive DM will facilitate cinematic action better than one who just fires off the numbers as they come up like a computer; and an intelligent DM will generally offer a more comprehensive strategic challenge than someone with the brains of Mike Tyson. However, I want to try to get beyond these subjective considerations and look at the game system itself, how conducive is it to each of these points? 1) Strategy No doubt D&D is a strategic game, the introductions of precise movement, more combat actions and the necessity of a grid make that obvious. The miniatures game provides even more evidence that the rules can be easily adapted to an entirely free-form strategy game. But all too often, it’s a simple matter of: “Tordek moves 10ft. and smacks the orc with his greatsword.” This in itself isn’t a bad thing. Sometimes that ugly orc just needs a face-full of greatsword. My problem is twofold however, (i) why does he just walk up and smack the orc so often? (ii) and why does Tordek almost always use the greatsword? There certainly are lots of things he could do. He could bullrush the orc, grapple him, run up and trip him, ready to attack him if he moves, etc. But time and time again, he just runs up and digs his sword into the poor orc’s chest. I think that the reason is, most of these other options are either very confusing, or not viable enough to make them real options. Grappling is a paramount example. In theory it seems like a good idea, allowing two people to wrestle. But why would Tordek want to enter into a grapple when he can just smack the guy? More importantly, why in the world would he want to subject himself to round after round of more or less nothing happening, and the ability to loose control in the grapple? The point is he wouldn’t. Unless Tordek is built specifically for grappling, tripping, bull rushing, etc. there’s almost no reason for him to perform any of these special combat actions. Secondly, from a player’s perspective, whenever someone in my group does get into a grapple, immediately the books come out… go to the combat chapter, okay, grapple. This slows the game down every time. Part of the reason for this is that the rules just aren’t looked at that often. But the rules are somewhat convoluted as well. It’s annoying that you have to make so many checks for a grapple, and it’s confusing to determine exactly what you can do when. Of course in the end it is all figured out, but again, this takes time away from actually grappling in the game. So why does Tordek always use that greatsword anyways? Well, it’s the best weapon of course… well, it deals the most damage anyways. There are a huge number of weapons in the Player’s Handbook, even more if you look at the supplements. Only a few are mechanically worth using, the rest should never be touched. Of course, for roleplaying purposes, I’ve had Orcish Paladins that use bastard swords, Elven Rangers that threw daggers, etc. Nevertheless, from a strategic and mechanical point of view, there’s no good reason for these builds. 2) Overcoming difficult or seemingly insurmountable odds What do I mean by this? It’s fun to work together as a team and defeat the evil NPC wizard who’s several levels higher than the party and has a bunch of monstrous spiders at his command. On a more individual scale, it is also fun to roll that 20 on the die and realize that this last hit before falling unconscious will save the party from utter destruction. So what’s the problem here? This is just a built-in part of the game. This is true, but at higher levels, the problem is it takes longer to get to these fun bits. Well… not really longer, but more annoying… As one goes up in level, one gains bonuses, everything goes up: BAB, Saves, etc. One also gets more and more attacks. What does this mean, one thing of course, that each person’s combat round takes longer and longer. They have to add up more and bigger numbers, and do it more times each round. This directly equals less fun for every other player at the table; because they have to wait, longer and longer each level before they get to do cool stuff again. As a group, this also equals less fun; because each combat takes longer, there are going to be less of them each session. Second, lets take a look at some high-level play: Tordek moves 5ft toward the Dragon and takes a full-attack action with, of course, his greatsword. Roll (10), roll (4), roll (18), roll (11)… +20/+15/+10/+5, +1 for Weapon Focus, +1 for Greater Weapon Focus, + 5 for Str, +4 for Magic = 41/30/39/27. Verses the evil Ancient Red Dragon, AC 39 --> 2 hits! Yes! Now what’s the difference between this, and: Roll (10), roll (4)… +6/+1, +1 for Weapon Focus, +3 for Str, +1 for MW = 21/9. Verses the evil Young Dragon, AC 21 --> 1 hit! Yes! Well, the combat round took at least 50% less time, which means that everyone else gets to go sooner. Actually, it probably took less than that, because there were fewer things to add up. The point is that D&D is designed to be balanced at every level of play. So while the numbers on your character sheet get bigger and bigger and bigger, so do the numbers in the Monster Manual. High-level combat ends up taking far longer and is more complex, but there is little reason for this, unless you’re a mathematician and just like adding up really big numbers. 3) Picturing the action, especially your character doing cool stuff So finally, what do I mean by this? Well, this is a combination of those above. The more the action in combat varies, the more varied and cinematic the action is going to seem when described. And the more often each character gets to go, the more opportunity to get right in there, contribute, and do great things. How often does the fight start, Tordek rushes in with his greatsword, and it’s over before most other characters get a chance to do anything? So what’s the solution? I haven’t really suggested any in this post, just vaguely griped about certain things and hinted at what could be done. Obviously the game would be more strategic if there were more reason to use other weapons, and the varied combat actions. This amounts to perhaps a change of the rules regarding these actions, or upping the benefit from utilizing them. The game might also be more fun with a reduction in the number of attacks high-level characters get per round, or the speed at which bonuses are added. These changes would result in vast changes to the system, as everything would have to be re-balanced as a result. Would it make the game more fun? I think that the game can be improved, and I think that these are the points where the combat can be improved most of all. It may not amount to building a better RPG, but it will at least make the fun bits from our favourite one that much more fun. - BvS
#2 Dan_Hemmens Nov 15, 2005 6:02:05	I rolled my eyes and groaned when I saw the title of this thread (and I certainly don't think the D20 system is the best thing to happen to tabletop roleplaying, not when compared to Unknown Armies and Nobilis). But to your credit you clearly defined what you wanted from an RPG, and concisely explained how the present ruleset failed to deliver on it. Problem 1, I think, stems as much from encounter design as anything else. Grappling the Orc is completely pointless if it's just going to thwack at you with a greatsword, but what about if it's holding a powerful magic weapon? It's possible that stopping it from using that item will be worth letting it stay alive for longer. Grappling an opponent is obviously not a good option if they're one grunt against many, but if they're about to cast the Vast Spell of Devastating Doom then it might be a good idea. Problem 2 has, in my opinion, a very simple solution, but one that you probably won't like: Ditch XP. Pick a level you want to run a game at, and don't let the players advance beyond it (or, if you prefer, pick a run of about three levels). Problem 3, similarly, strikes me as adventure design as much as anything else. If you have encounters that your Fighter just breezes through, then you need tougher encounters.
#3 zombiegleemax Nov 17, 2005 16:15:26	Good points (although i don't necessarily agree on all of them), but I’d like to see some more practical solutions. Have you developed some way to balance the game as per your suggestions?
#4 winter_ayars Dec 03, 2005 2:57:12	NOTE FOR MY PLAYERS: No reading this. It includes spoilers for next session. I agree that encounter design has to be one of the biggest factors, here. Let me describe the rules used in the session I ran last Wednesday... Readied action: an enemy (a very confused Revolutionary League berk in Sigil) was holding one of the PCs captive (tied up) and had a knife to his throat. "Back off or I'll cut him!" (The PCs didn't, but that disaster was averted by another disaster...) Bull rush: a bunch of beggars (recruited by the people in charge of the second disaster mentioned above) bull-rushed one of the sorcerers out of threat range of another enemy. The beggars were statistically not so great (-1 to hit, improvised weapons) but they managed to force an attack of opportunity and they continued to threaten the sorcerer to discourage him from casting spells. (Didn't quite go according to their plan, but it was a good plan!) This included some "aid another" trickery. Grappling: Okay, this one I cheat on because the PCs' "minder" (a level 11 wu jen--the PCs are level 2, almost 3...) polymorphed into a behir and used the bite/improved grab combo on some of the enemies. Okay, I’m missing some stuff I’m sure, but that's okay. This encounter is not over (it's a giant endurance-contest encounter wherein I’m going to teach my PCs that i, as the DM, determine when they can rest :D ) since we ran out of real-time to play. The projected continuation includes: Sunder: Another "minder" character (a githzerai monk/fighter/shadowdancer) is going to show up and she wanders around with an adamantine greatsword and enjoys breaking everyone else's toys. Speaking of which, she also likes using grapple and will likely be using both of these on a rather nasty enemy who will be showing up in a little. Furthermore, there have been many different tricks tried beyond "run up, smack the [insert monster] with a big slicey thing" (although there has been some of that) in this encounter. Including, but not limited to: sneak attack, calling for reinforcements, enemies of varying power levels (the beggar army running around getting in the PCs way while the "priority targets" beat up on the party), buff/debuff, ranged attacks to force certain actions (in other words: "fight me now or I'll pepper you with crossbow bolts!"), and lots of switching between weapons (including sometimes forced, at least one shortsword was shattered). I think it's an exciting fight and I hope my players agree. (Although at least one of them wants to hurt me for being putting the party through the wringer... not entirely unjustified :D) In my experience the way to avoid encounters like "See orc, run to orc, hit orc with greatsword, collect XP and treasure!" is to ask why you want to hit the orc. If it's simply to kill the orc as fast as possible then your greatsword will probably see some use--but is that really what you want? In the case of my encounter above the goal isn't to kill the enemies as fast as possible but to survive and use as few resources as possible. Now, a really good way to do that is to kill the enemies as fast as possible--but that's not necessarily going to involve running up and hitting things with greatswords. For example, the Wu Jen minder could have fireballed the beggar army to death (10d6 vs. ~2-4 hp enemies packed together)--but then she would have caught the sorcerer in the fireball and that would have been bad. The sorcerer would have magic missiled the enemies, except this particular sorcerer is concentrating on using touch spells with the complete arcane draconic feats. The fighter (who ran up and tried to smash, though he missed, one of the enemies with his maul) was the one who was being held hostage by the Anarchists so he started the fight without his armor on--this drastically changed the mechanics of how he worked within the fight. With only a shield his AC drops dramatically. (And actually, I think this was a mistake on my part--I should have figured out a way to keep him in his armor... hindsight!) So let me go back and re-ask the question: why do you want to hit the orc with a greatsword (or what have you)? I think that this being the "default" combat action isn't actually a bad thing, except for characters who specialize in one of the other options. It's the role playing that puts you into a situation in which the other options make sense. It's the role playing that contextualizes the mechanical combat. And conversely, it's the mechanics that make the role playing make sense. In D&D the two rely on each other in order to remain reasonable/predictable within the game world.
#5 zombiegleemax Jan 04, 2006 13:47:17	Everyday skills, physical toughness, knowledge, and combat know-how are all related through the level system. Warriors swinging massive weapons while wearing heavy armor don't get tired. (There's a good reason why everyone does carry around greatswords ... or there should be.) Hitpoints. Magical healing. Et cetera, et cetera. None of these problems are likely to change. They're all sacred cows. Why do you think Magic Missile is still in the game?