Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 wrecan Feb 13, 2007 17:46:57	In my first [thread=755485]CRAFTY ADEPT[/thread] thread, I discussed why Adepts are the ideal manufacturers of minor magic items. But I wondered if there was a way to decrease the cost of manufacturing such items even futher. It occurred to me that using the Craft skill might reduce the cost of making an item. Magic items require supplies worth half the sales price of the item. What if these components could themselves be Crafted? (Note that magic items whose mundane counterparts have an intrinsic value, such as arms, armor, magic instruments, etc., must be masterworked. For purposes of this article, I will assume such items are commissioned by professional smiths with the appropriate facilities and Craft skills.) I propose a new variety of Craft: Craft (component). This allows an adept to create magic item components and, I would suggest, spell component bags, as well as the expensive ink and paper used in spell books. Given time, Adepts could increase their profits by building all their materials from scratch. Now let’s figure out the bonus to their Craft (competency). In the original thread, I noted a Feat ladder for magic item crafters. But humans never allocated their bonus feat. Let’s allocate to such people a Skill Focus (Craft (component)) feat, giving them a +3 bonus. Let’s also assume these Adepts are working in a monastery that gives them a +2 competency bonus. I would argue that Adepts could also have craftsman’s tools that give them an additional +2 competency bonus. (Competency bonuses stack if they do not come from the same source – I’d argue that portable tools and the fixed site of the facility are separate sources.) Let’s further propose that they maximize their Craft (component) ranks. Finally, let’s assume that such Adepts have an average Intelligence of 12. Even with a standard array, it is likely that Wisdom and Intelligence would have the bonuses. Adepts with less would probably be allocated to other fields. So a first-level human Adept Item-Crafter would have a +12 on Craft (component) rolls, increasing by +1 each level, with an additional bonus at eight and sixteenth levels, assuming they use their Ability boosts in Intelligence. Let us now assume that – excluding magic arms and armor – item components are “typical”, for which the Craft DC is 10. Let’s say they are allowed to take 10 on this roll. They aren’t, but given the law of averages, the math is easier. At this bonus, an Adept Crafter can expect to create the following gp worth of magic items in a week’s time (not including the actual item crafting time): 1st-7th level: 84 gp + 4 gp/level 8th-15th level: 88 gp + 4 gp/level 16th-20th level: 92 gp + 4 gp/level Now, this might seem slow, but, remember, these Adepts have plenty of time on their hands. Now, how much can an average first-level Adept make in a year? Assuming 50 workweeks a year, that’s 4,400 gp in items with only about 733.33 gp in investment. I would assume that the first-level Adepts spend all their time making components, while the higher-level Adepts actually convert these components into magical items. This higher-level Adept--let’s call him an “Abbot”--would only work about 44 days/year per first-level Adept, and spend the rest of his time supervising the other employees. An Abbot could work with up to 8 first-level Adepts. Assuming eight first-level Adepts and an Abbot, fully employed working year-round (save for two weeks’ worth of holy days), the abbey is going to clear about 3,666.67 gp/year! I’d assume most abbeys are not employed full-time. Also, some of that profit will be taken by their middleman, who takes orders, carts the goods between the abbey and the city, etc. I’d say the abbey sells the item to the merchant for half market price, and the merchant gets the 50% markup. This reduces the abbey’s maximum profit to about 733.33 gp/year, which is a decent amount of profit for eight guys with minimal expenses. Most of this would go to paying for food, tithing up the hierarchy and charitable works. Now, given the time requirements, how do really expensive items get made? The answer is that there could be a network of these abbeys. And when a wealthy patron (like the PCs) asks for a metamagic rod, the merchants and adepts make the components piecemeal. In my estimation, a commissioned item should actually require double the time listed in the DMG. 1 day/1,000 gp to make the item, but first 1 day/1,000 gp pieces to make the item components as well.
#2 zombiegleemax Feb 14, 2007 18:42:39	So, you are essentially suggesting that a large group of low-level adepts would be able to assemble an amazingly powerful magic item, piece-by-piece? It seems somewhat odd. Especially if not everyone has access to the spell prerequisite, or has the required caster level. Creating ink for spellbooks and items for Spell Component Pouches I can understand, but not a horde of 1st-level adepts creating a metamagic rod.
#3 wrecan Feb 15, 2007 11:16:01	Addendum: I think I'm giving the middleman too much credit. This guy is buying a finished magic item and selling it to adventurers at a 50% mark-up. Presumably he's splitting this markup with the abbey. The abbey, by making its own components should be able to entirely pocket that profit. So assume the abbey produces 4400 gp/year, the merchant's cut is only 1100 gp. That leaves 3300 gp for the abbey. When you take out the cost of the goods, that's 2,566.67 gp/year. This is a good take for our team of nine, the equivalent of 1.14 gp/workday for each adept for a 50-week work year with five-day workweeks. A skilled craftsman only makes 3 sp/workday. Our adepts are clearing 4 times what a skilled craftsman makes. Now, the adepts have to eat. Let's assume the adepts are living in humble conditions, say .14 gp/workday. Our adept is clearing a profit of 1 gp/workday. The abbey is thus clearing a profit of 2,250 gp/year. Now, much of that has to go to facilities and equipment. The abbey itself might have cost 10,000 gp to build. Each adept needs his own set of tools (55 gp/each). The abbey needs a magic item laboratory (roughly 4000 gp). These fixed costs (about 14,500 gp -- fronted by the church hierarchy) could probably be amortized over time (about 750 gp/year for 99 years). The abbey is also presumably expected to tithe an additional 250 gp/year or so to their superiors in the order. (And there might be taxes if the local lord taxes the churches.) Even so, it would be reasonable to assume the nine-man abbey still has a budget of 1,000 gp/year with which to perform charitable works. This doesn't include extra money made on the side by giving spellcasting services before or after the adepts' eight-hour work day. That makes a local abbey a nice addition to any traditional D&D economy.
#4 wrecan Feb 15, 2007 16:07:22	So, you are essentially suggesting that a large group of low-level adepts would be able to assemble an amazingly powerful magic item, piece-by-piece? No. Only the components. The item itself is manufactured by the abbot pursuant to all of the standard item creation rules. The purpose of this article is only to show a means by which magic item creation costs can be reduced by having apprentices making the item's components before magic item creation begins. By virtue of this process, a magic item would only require one-sixth its market price in raw materials. Using Craft, first-level Adepts convert those raw materials into components. And using Item Creation Feats, the abbot converts those components into the magic item. Creating ink for spellbooks and items for Spell Component Pouches I can understand, but not a horde of 1st-level adepts creating a metamagic rod. I did not suggest 1st level adepts could ignore the item creation feat prerequisites. All item creation is done by the high-level adepts with the proper feats.
#5 zombiegleemax Feb 17, 2007 9:12:40	Now that I am thinking about it, it seems rather...modern. Although I can believe that successful businesses were run similarly to the way they are today (at least on paper), it seems to be becoming more of a factory than an abbey. It seems as if they are working constantly, taking time off only for holy days, and that their sole purpose is to craft these magic items for profit. Perhaps this might be good for some campaigns, but the concept of a magic item factory may be going out on a limb somewhat. I like the concept of such a factory, especially in a magically advanced land, but it seems rather strange. Definitely not for low-magic campaigns.
#6 wrecan Feb 19, 2007 17:53:43	Again, it's not really a factory, because they aren't creating all that many items. Secondly, this is only a mechanism for explaining all the minor magic items that exist in the default campaign setting. Please see the first Crafty Adepts thread for an explanation of that. Third, a "factory" implies some sort of mechanization. This isn't Eberron and the abbeys are not powered by some sort of elementally powered turbine. It's all human labor building on the actual abilities granted to Adepts in the Players' Handbook. Fourth, the model of a business-savvy monastery is quite medieval. Monasteries made wine, constructed clocks, built all sorts of things. A great example is the Pannohalmi Archabbey in Hungary, which had been making wine since the tenth century! The most famous of course is Dom Perignon, the 17th century monk who invented champagne. (Which he could only due because his monastery had a centuries old tradition of winemaking.) That's a lot of what actual monks and abbots did in between prayer times. It makes perfect sense for D&D monasteries of Adepts to do the same. Why did medieval monasteries specialize in wine? Because wine took a lot of time and attention, which monks had in abundance, and they rendered great profits, which the Church greatly needed. I'm only proposing something in that tradition, based in a world of magic. Obviously, this is inappropriate for campaigns with less magic than that suggested in the DMG and PHB. It would also be insufficient for campaigns with more magic than suggested in the DMG and PHB.
#7 traevanon Feb 21, 2007 9:08:20	In my campaign we have used something similar, but slightly more limited. Assume for a moment that every permanent magic item's construction cost, I.E. the supplies, consists of: 1/3 items of high craftsmanship (intricate runes, faceted stones, etc.) 1/3 rare items (phoenix feathers, troll spit, etc.) 1/3 commodities with a fixed price (mithril, gems, etc.) In this case your abbey can only reduce the cost of magic items it creates by 33% through highly skilled craftsmanship alone. Still they can pocket nearly the same amount of money over time just by working on a greater number of items. This also provides the adventurers with a means of reducing the cost of their magic items through the survival and knowledge skills. If one knows that Troll Spit is required to craft a Ring of Regeneration, one can collect it on a chance encounter with a troll. With the markup, this could either reduce the cost of magic items by 1/6 or 1/3 at the DM’s option. If your abbey also has some form of raw material production (a farm, a mine, a grove or a mill) then the unskilled members of the community can at least help with the base materials. Anyhow, that's how we do it.
#8 zombiegleemax Feb 21, 2007 19:00:08	I wish to add my 2 cents. First, I recently led a 23 person campaign world in forgotten realms. Specifically inside the city of Waterdeep. (We had 3 Gamemasters and 20 players. Every friday night we let 8 people play per table, and ran 2 tables. Dm's met weekly to compare notes and all characters had to let us know where they lived and what they were up to in off time. We also ran a real time analogy of 2 real days equaled 3 game days) We had 3 players that quickly realized where the money was. They adventured 2-3 nights a month and took custom magic item orders the rest. Due to party size and loot distribution, they quickly surpassed the wealth of the other PC's in the game and with that extra wealth came the ability to craft custom magic items for themselves. They were also the best equipped. These players even went so far as to become specialists. 1 became the potion brewer prestige class, 1 became the Maester out of Complete Adventurer, and the other was a Techsmith of Gond. They eventually recruited another player who played a rogue/merchant prince. Instead of spending their time doing random adventures on their nights they hired other pc's to retrieve things. (I won't get into the details but they did well for themselves). The reason for my post is this. When you introduce a large number of adventurer's into an economy, someone will fill that need. And they will do it quickly. In the real world I ran these guys dominated the other PC's and established themselves as leaders of the regular PC classes (fighters, rogues, mages, clerics started coming to them for adventures. They would spend some coin paying sages to unearth information that would leave to the recover of items of places.) Gabeldom
#9 zombiegleemax Feb 21, 2007 19:15:48	I want to go one further. In my opinion, Any mage/wizard worth his salt would have at least Craft Wondrous Item. For the Following Reasons: 1) You can craft magic items to suit your individual needs. EX: Robes that grant deflection AC bonus, EX: Boots that grant move actions as an immediate action or 2x speed EX: Gloves that deflect arrows or help with spellcasting EX: Tools that aid in certain skills 2) You can craft magic items that are definitely not tainted, cursed, or have a hidden back door where a more powerful mage can own your soul/mind. 3) You have a neat cool way to make money when not adventuring and save up for the really cool item you want. 4) It doesn't really matter how much XP you spend. In fact you always want to be one level behind the group. Reason: Based off encounter charts you will get more XP than any individual in your group per encounter. This allows you to craft at a faster rate. 5) You as a PC can change the magic item level in your game. The Craft Feats and the Maester Class are quite possibly the most powerful feats in the game. Witness: A magic item can grant a feat. Gabeldom
#10 elondir Feb 22, 2007 10:41:33	I would just assume the adepts in question have the Extraordinary Artisan feat and sell at full price (25% profit per item). They might also have Legendary Artisan to cut down on xp costs. And there's still the question of where the adepts get XP from to make the items. They must earn more xp for selling items or by other means than they use for crafting the items, or else they would not be able to sustain a business of crafting items. Alternatively, they could use ritual transference, or the feat or the item that does the same thing (see one of the articles on the website) to transfer the xp cost to the client, at least for commissioned items. But there is still a huge hole for XP cost for crafted items like potions.
#11 elondir Feb 22, 2007 11:25:45	If I'm not mistaken, then adepts will have 50% monetary profit from each item (extraordinary artisan is not needed). As these are regular artisans, let's assume that they don't have the legendary artisan feat. We can use scrolls, potions, and wands as an idea of what the adept's wares cost, coupled with the base NPC wealth table in the DMG. What I have found is that adepts should gain 2.5 xp for every 1 gp of profit he earns from selling magic items that he created. This will offset the xp cost of magic item creation, keeps adepts in-line with the NPC wealth table, and makes sense in an in-game context.
#12 wrecan Feb 22, 2007 14:43:29	I would just assume the adepts in question have the Extraordinary Artisan feat and sell at full price (25% profit per item). They might also have Legendary Artisan to cut down on xp costs. Those are Eberron-specific feats that have never appeared in non-Eberron supplements. My article is not intended for Eberron campaigns, but for basic default campaigns. there's still the question of where the adepts get XP from to make the items. That's a discussion worthy of an entire other thread. If I'm not mistaken, then adepts will have 50% monetary profit from each item Not necessarily. The price of an item is double the cost of making it. However, the adepts live in a secluded abbey. They need a middleman. In my original scenario, they split the difference between the cost of the item and the sale price with that middleman. The point of this article was that if they could use Craft to make the components, they reduce their manufacturing costs by a third and that increases their profits considerably. What I have found is that adepts should gain 2.5 xp for every 1 gp of profit he earns from selling magic items that he created. Where did you get the notion that an NPC gains XP for selling stuff? I want to go one further. Well, you had a unique situation in which there were 23 PCs looking around for stuff. A wizard who makes his own stuff is basically converting cash into found treasure. I my experience, that's not as useful as other Feats. Also, crafting items takes a lot of time. A wizard crafting for cash needs to have a ready market. In a typical four-person party, your three friends ain't gonna cut it. 3) You have a neat cool way to make money when not adventuring and save up for the really cool item you want. A wizard should not be able to sell his crafted items to NPCs for a profit. PCs sell their items at cost. That's because they aren't established magic item sellers because they spend most of their time adventuring. If a wizard wants to become a magic item seller, he needs to retire and hang a shingle. You should not allow wizards to sell their crafted items to NPCs at the list price in the DMG unless you also allow PCs to sell magic items they find lying around a dungeon at list price in the DMG.
#13 elondir Feb 23, 2007 13:04:19	Where did you get the notion that an NPC gains XP for selling stuff? I am trying to create a simple mechanism to give these crafty adepts the means to actually make the items without running out of experience points, while simultaneously keeping their personal wealth in line with the NPC Wealth by Level table in the DMG. If an adept creates items to sell them, then he runs out of XP to make them, and probably will never level up. He's out of business unless he does something to gain XP. It always bugged me that there is no explanation of how NPCs gain XP outside of combat (probably to avoid PCs from leveling without adventuring). The adept is gaining a steady profit, taking him up the ladder on the NPC Wealth by Level table. But his level isn't increasing. To account for these two problems (running out of XP and level freeze), I found that 2.5 xp per gp of profit will simultaneously make up for lost xp and push his xp to the next level right about in line with the W/L table. Hence, profit = xp. Here is some in-game justification: the craftsman's job is to make items. The more items a crafter makes, the more experience he has (look at your resume - it's probably got "experience" listed with all your jobs from previous years of employment). Without this mechanism, adepts stagnate and don't even start with any xp for crafting in the first place.
#14 zombiegleemax Feb 23, 2007 18:50:42	To wrecan A wizard crafting for cash needs to have a ready market. In a typical four-person party, your three friends ain't gonna cut it. I agree. Plus if it is the people you adventure with you might want to cut them a deal as your life may depend upon them having good gear. Wrecan said: A wizard should not be able to sell his crafted items to NPCs for a profit. PCs sell their items at cost. That's because they aren't established magic item sellers because they spend most of their time adventuring. I reply: Have you read the DMG2? It is well worth the read. Now I mentioned they opened a business, for selling to the public he opened a magic items business and had to operate as per the rules found in DMG2. That brought a whole new dimension to their game. It drastically changed their profit lines(the profit off of a magic item shop and running an inn is the same Profession: Shopkeeper + Wisdom + Modifiers + 10 or roll d20 - 25 then x 50gp) also they get penalized by -8 if they are away from their business to long. Wrecan said: If a wizard wants to become a magic item seller, he needs to retire and hang a shingle. You should not allow wizards to sell their crafted items to NPCs at the list price in the DMG unless you also allow PCs to sell magic items they find lying around a dungeon at list price in the DMG. I reply: I agree whole heartedly, In fact the players used the rules here. For example, 1st level Feat in FR: Mercantile Background (Player's Guide to Faerun pg.41) allows you to sell items at 75% of cost instead of 50% +/- a haggle roll. That is how they got around the sell things at 50% rule, in fact, the merchant prince with that feat became a sort of fence for almost all of the other characters because he could buy the stuff that they wanted to sell at 55% and sell it at 75%. Thus making a 20% profit on each transaction. They can also once a level buy any item at 75%. There is another feat called Favored in Guild: Merchant (DMG2 pg 226) that has some pretty spectacular results. Once per level you can sell something at 100% above list price. This allows the players to take a greater hand in their own futures and equipment. I bring these points up because once you start looking at what makes sense to do by the rules, you realize a few things: 1) Many Entrepreneurs were adventurers 2) The only Adventurer that is all combat trained or all invasion trained is probably supported by a city or nation. The average adventurer has a primary skill that earned him money at one time or still does. 3) That magic items would be available in the frequency set by the DMG I notice you didn't touch on Craft Wondrous item. 1) It allows you to gear yourself up to handle different situations 2) You can gear the party up 3) No wizard should be without it. If you are the ultimate war wizard or war character and ask a wizard for an item and he hides a dominate person, charm, enchantment style spell in their. (Don’t forget Nystul's magical aura to conceal an enchantment from identify and etc...). That wizard now has a very powerful slave to do with what he will. Just my thoughts, please anyone respond as I like examining these issues to find flaws. Gabeldom
#15 wrecan Feb 26, 2007 14:21:35	I am trying to create a simple mechanism to give these crafty adepts the means to actually make the items without running out of experience points, while simultaneously keeping their personal wealth in line with the NPC Wealth by Level table in the DMG. I understand that. I just think it's beyond the scope of this article. How Adepts, Aristocrats, Commoners, Experts and even Warriors gain XP in D&D is worthy of its own topic! Have you read the DMG2? It is well worth the read. Now I mentioned they opened a business, for selling to the public he opened a magic items business and had to operate as per the rules found in DMG2. That brought a whole new dimension to their game. It drastically changed their profit lines(the profit off of a magic item shop and running an inn is the same Profession: Shopkeeper + Wisdom + Modifiers + 10 or roll d20 - 25 then x 50gp) also they get penalized by -8 if they are away from their business to long. I haven't read the DMG2, but I am vaguely familiar with the shop rules. I'm sorry I missed that in your post. I think the vast majority of players aren't going to be in one place long enough to establish a shop. I notice you didn't touch on Craft Wondrous item. 1) It allows you to gear yourself up to handle different situations 2) You can gear the party up 3) No wizard should be without it. If you are the ultimate war wizard or war character and ask a wizard for an item and he hides a dominate person, charm, enchantment style spell in their. (Don’t forget Nystul's magical aura to conceal an enchantment from identify and etc...). That wizard now has a very powerful slave to do with what he will. It's been my experience that wizards in my campaigns don't bother with Craft Wondrous Item. Most melee-ists are looking for Arms and Armor, the casters concentrate their item expenditures on scrolls and wands. Only the rogues are looking for items to complement their abilities (cloak of elvenkind, boots of elvenkind, etc.) For my money, the best Item Creation Feats in the game are Scribe Scrolls (which wizards get for free) and Brew Potion. Those are the biggest constant costs for adventurers because they are always running through potions and scrolls.
#16 wrecan Apr 06, 2007 18:42:50	I was thinking of how to get around the problem that a Crafty Adept is constantly spending his own XP to make magic items. Since a Crafty Adept is going to be cloistered, he doesn't have a lot of opportunity to gain XP. I didn't want the solution to be a new spell, because Adepts don't really have a great spell selection. Nor could it be an item -- who would craft the item. I settled on an alchemical item that would allow the person commissioning the construction of an item to donate his own XP to be used in the manufacture of magic items. Enjoy! Crafting Gem This yellow gemstone, when pressed against the forehead of a recipient for one uninterrupted minute, transfers some of his own spiritual strength into the gemstone in the form of experience points. The gemstone can then be transported to another who can use the life energy within to craft magic items without expending the crafter’s own experience. The donor need not be willing, although the forcible theft of lifeforce is considered a crime akin to aggravated assault with a deadly weapon in most civilized jurisdictions. A donor cannot donate experience points that would result in the donor having less experience than necessary to maintain their current character level. A donor cannot have fewer than one experience point in any event. If the donor is unable to fill the gemstone due to any of these requirements, the item will not function. The amount of experience that a gemstone can absorb, as well as its price, depends on the type of gem used in the stone’s creation.
#17 wrecan Apr 13, 2007 23:37:28	Using the magi item manufacture rules in the DMG, I propose he following magic item, which would also help Crafty Adepts be more, well, adept, at crafting magic item components. Artisans’ Tools, enhanced These magical masterworked artisans’ tools provide a competency bonus to any individual with five or more ranks of the appropriate Craft. For those with fewer than five ranks, the item serves only as masterwork artisan’s tools. The magical enhancement will stack with the mundane competence bonus granted by the masterworked quality of the tools. Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item, guidance, creator must have five ranks in appropriate Craft skill; Price 100 gp (+1), 350 gp (+2), 800 gp (+3), 1,500 (+4), 2,250 (+5), 3,500 (+6), 4,500 (+7); Weight 5 lb. Price calculation: bonus squared x 100 x .9, rounded up.
#18 castlemike Apr 22, 2007 18:09:00	Waterdeep City of Splendors allows Adepts to join the Guild Mage of Waterdeep PRC. A variant of the Guild Mage of the Arcane Order PRC. Either PRC grants Adepts access to one of the most important Crafting components: Limited casting of Arcane Spells they are capable of casting by level to make the items. Allowing "Urban" Adepts a single Domain like ECS grants crafting Adepts a lot more items crafting options with the Spell Domain and Any Spell for access to Level 1 and 2 Arcane and Divine spells for a Adept.
#19 wrecan May 21, 2007 14:40:52	The organization rules do seem like they would be a great companion to this article. I'll have to look into that. I always got the idea that an Organization was urban, while I envisioned by Crafty Adepts to be holed away in a distant monastery like European vintner monks. But I guess there's no reason an Organization has to be urban...
#20 wrecan Jul 29, 2007 10:22:08	I've been trying to devise a good game mechanic to deal with how crafty adepts get the XP needed to make all these magic items. On the one hand, it has to produce enough XP to allow the creation of many items. On the other, it cannot be a mechanic that will be abused by players. I think I came up with something that works fairly well. I present it for your comment. Wellspring, Greater This reflecting pool is found only in the central plaza of the central church of the god of magic (each god of magic in a campaign should have its own greater wellspring). As a fixture of the cloister, it cannot be moved or else it will lose all of its magical properties. Anybody who is anointed in waters from the pool, and who consents to the ritual, becomes dedicated to that pool. When they die, their soul travels to the pool and merges with the waters therein, granting their strength to the pool. Once dedicated, the individual is not subject to spells affecting the soul, including clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, and true resurrection (even if the character would wish to have these spells affect him). Once dedicated, a person cannot unmake the bond, without a wish or miracle. There is no limit to how many individuals may be dedicated to the pool. The water from the pool retains the imprint of these souls. Any person who is dedicated to that pool and who manufactures a magic item may dip the item in the pool to use the energy within to replace the experience expenditure required for the item’s manufacture. Water removed from the greater wellspring is treated as plain water (although it will radiate a faint aura of transmutation magic), and is unusable, unless it is returned to the greater wellspring or placed in a lesser wellspring (see below), at which time, it contributes the experience therein to the pool. One waterskin of water from a wellspring contributes 100 XP to the pool (assuming the donor wellspring has that much experience in its pool). Dispel magic or curse water (or similar effect) will render the water inert, losing the XP stored within forever. Although wellspring water is worthless to anybody who is not dedicated to the greater wellspring, if a calculation is needed, assume that one waterskin of wellspring water has a value of 2,500 gp and a CL of 1st. The total experience in the pool available for magic item creation is equal to the sum of experience points of the souls dedicated to the wellspring who have died (less any amounts removed from the wellspring for the manufacture of magic items). It is believed that entry into the wellspring does not prevent the dedicated souls from passage into the afterlife, but merely unburdens them of the cares of the material world. Strong necromancy; CL 18th; Craft Wondrous Item, soul bind; Price: 100,000 gp (+50,000 gp in materials for the wellspring). Wellspring, Lesser When water from a greater wellspring is poured into this reflecting pool, it allows those dedicated to the greater wellspring from whence the water came to utilize the experience stored within. The maximum amount of XP stored in the pool is determined by the size of the pool. One waterskin of wellspring water will hold 100 XP. Most craft cloisters will have a carefully warded lesser wellspring at its center. The church controlling the greater wellspring will usually send regular shipments of wellspring water to the lesser wellsprings with which it is affiliated to ensure the craft cloisters continue to tithe proceeds of their sales of magic items to the central church. The lesser wellspring must be affixed in place. Any attempt to move the lesser wellspring will result in the loss of all magical properties in the item and the wellspring water within is rendered inert until placed within a functioning wellspring. Moderate transmutation; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, purify food and drink; Price: 1,000 gp (+500 gp in materials for the wellspring).
#21 zombiegleemax Aug 17, 2007 23:55:45	Heh thanks again for the work done Wrecan, you seem to like to do this. Maybe you should start the XP for NPCs thread since it seems to like to come up for you. Anyways. I like the Wellsprings and I will end up using those and the Magic Cloisters, or is it oysters hmmmmm, in my campaign I think. Something rather interesting is if the Church was so wide spread that the masses didn't know they were pledging there souls when they were anointed by the holy water. So they always have an influx of XP. I would say about 1/4 of the level personally, so level 1 is 250, level 2 1500 and so. Also possibly a water transfer system, plumbing and what not to reroute water from a central hub to whatever cloister hasn't had enough people die in town that month. Too advanced or what?
#22 zombiegleemax Aug 18, 2007 0:18:00	Oh and by the way a 'specialist' in a skill at first level has +11 in it, if it has no '+2 for 2 skills' feat for it, such as craft. by 4th level they gain a +20. This is from the DMG2 Page 155. He supposedly costs 4 gold. A first level 'specialist' costs 2 gold per a day. So just as a remark they are making less than what they should at first level.
#23 wrecan Aug 22, 2007 16:29:17	Heh thanks again for the work done Wrecan, you seem to like to do this. Thanks! I do enjoy this. I think NPC classes were the single best innovation in 3rd edition and I hope it doesn't disappear in 4th. Maybe you should start the XP for NPCs thread since it seems to like to come up for you. What is the "XP for NPCs thread"? Something rather interesting is if the Church was so wide spread that the masses didn't know they were pledging there souls when they were anointed by the holy water. I would advise against this for several reasons. First, it could be used against PCs without their knowledge. Second, PCs could totally abuse this mechanic. Also possibly a water transfer system, plumbing and what not to reroute water from a central hub to whatever cloister hasn't had enough people die in town that month. Too advanced or what? That's pretty advanced. Also, if you read my Wellspring descriptions, all anointed souls go to the Greater Wellspring. The Lesser Wellspring is nothing more than a vessel to hold water for the Greater Wellspring. People willing to be anointed have to go to the Greater Wellspring and be anointed there. When they die (no matter where they are), their soul travels first to the Greater Wellspring and then, unburdened of XP, on to the afterlife. One interesting plot twist I thought of from the wellsprings is if the central cloister hires the PCs as follows: [INDENT]Yesterday, our Adepts told us that our Wellspring just doubled in strength. That could only happen if a number of dedicated souls were killed all at once. We sent messages to all our cloisters and all responded except one. We need you to go there and find out what happened....[/INDENT]
#24 zombiegleemax Aug 31, 2007 20:17:22	Well with all of your threads on NPCs and their amazing class abilities I figured you might have a way for the NPCs to get experience, an idea in your head or something about how that works. For the idea I wasn't going to anoint the PCs since the Church will most likely be an adversary to them and with that same remark they couldn't use it because they don't believe in the Church's god. Would have been my explanation. Right that is why I proposed the water system to move the XP water from the greater wells to the lesser wells instead of using messengers with the water or whatever would have normally carried them to the outer lying cloisters. Hahaha I think with that adventure hook it would more likely be the PCs killing the Church people and then the Church sending an assassin or two their way. Look forward to more ideas.
#25 katman Sep 01, 2007 18:10:34	I wish to add my 2 cents.... We had 3 players that quickly realized where the money was. They adventured 2-3 nights a month and took custom magic item orders the rest. Due to party size and loot distribution, they quickly surpassed the wealth of the other PC's in the game and with that extra wealth came the ability to craft custom magic items for themselves. They were also the best equipped. Interesting story, and you're right. Someone will rise to fill this role in any setting with a lot of adventurers. That's why these folks are often found in cities, because the critical mass is there and they have easiest access to other specialists like sages. Nothing says these folks have to be good-aligned, either - and they can make terrifying enemies when crossed given the favours they can call in from other adventurers.
#26 wrecan Nov 19, 2007 8:09:05	Well with all of your threads on NPCs and their amazing class abilities I figured you might have a way for the NPCs to get experience, an idea in your head or something about how that works. Ever since you wrote this I have been compelled involuntarily to think about means for individuals NPCs to gain XP.... Some have proposed that NPCs gain XP for overcoming the challenges of fantasy life. The drought, the occasional arm wrestling, slaughtering cows for market, would all be encounters that garner XP. My problem with this is that long-lived races, such as elves, should all be maxed out at 8th level (at 9th level, CR1 challenges no longer garner XP) by middle age. Which seriously messes up your encounter charts. So my proposal is that NPC classes gain XP as they increase in Age Category. I propose they increase three levels for each Age Category once they reach their NPC Class' starting age, but suffer a negative level when they reach Venerable. This would be in addition to the physical penalties and mental bonuses they receive while aging. Thus, an Adult NPC is level 1-3, Middle Age = 4-6, Old is 7-9 and Venerable is back down to 7. The rationale behind this is that a race matures both physically, intellectually and emotionally base don their racial aging. Being Old isn't just a physical state but a state of mind that comes with maturity, and this can be reflected with the benefits of increased level (as offset by the physical penalties). NPCs can also gain XP in the usual manner, though this is rarer. You might have a veteran warrior with a level bump over other people in his age bracket. If a NPC ever gains a PC class, he no longer gains levels through aging. PCs are different. They have specialized skills (whether through intense training, heritage or simply being "touched" as with sorcerers). Mundane experiences of life no longer aid them in progress. They need active experiences and adversity to improve their skills. PCs never gain XP through aging. (I would also allow NPCs who gain PC classes to retool themselves into all-PC classes using the retraining rules.) So what about NPCs spending XP for magic items. I would rules that a NPC can spend XP equal to 20 times their level on an item, but this drains them slightly, such that they cannot spend any XP on other magic items (or spells) for one day per XP spent per character level. (Thus an item crafted regains the spent XP at a rate of 1 XP/level/day, and cannot create new items until he is fully replenished.) What do people think of this?