Divide and conquer. The sooner you can separate them, the easier it gets. The wizard buffs the party, the cleric heals, the rogue scouts, the fighter provides the meat shield...take out any one of them and you make the rest of the party that much effective.
Erect barricades and line them with lead. It blocks divination and some sorts of magical travel (I think)
Have the WHOLE TOWN behind a crenellated wall with heavy crossbows. Good cover is almost as good as full plate. It doesn't matter what the ACs of the adventurers are when they've got over 100 crossbow bolts heading their way...EACH. That's an average of 5 auto-hits and possible crits per adventurer per every other round (gotta re-load.) That'll sting. On second thought, don't divide the xbow bolts among them...have them focus fire on one at a time, preferably a support or caster type (someone with below d8 hit die)
Use traps. Landslides and avalanches are good, if the terrain's right for it. Collapse buildings on the buggarts, with explosives or fire... drop heavy things on them, like logs, rocks, or anything lying around. Contact poison is, in general, your friend. If you've divided the team already, a pit trap with a puddle of contact poison in the bottom is a great way to ensure that whoever-it-is never comes out...only those with magical flying/jumping items or spells will survive if there's nobody to pull you out. Boiling or flaming oil is good, too: there's nothing like the taste of deep-fried half-orc! Mmmm...
Commandeer every last bit of magical and mundane gear from the local merchants that could possibly be used to fight off the adventurers. Anything you would allow a PC to buy in this town will be given for free to defend it. Give it to the highest-level NPCs in the town, those who will be best able to use it. Give the captain of the guard the Sword +1, the leader of the local mages' guild the Pearl of Power, etc. etc. etc. Make particular use of one-use, direct-damage items, such as the Bead of Force, Potion of Fire Breath, Necklace of Fireballs, the various magical arrows and bolts, and others- they'll do far more damage than anyone could otherwise in the town.
Make the criminal element work for you. Have the mayor contact the local thieves' guild, emphasizing that they will suffer with the town if it's sacked. These people will have access to many resources useful in combat (POISON, knowledge of ambush spots, etc.) that will not be easily obtainable by the authorities.
Make them fight for every last inch of ground. If a street isn't bristling with two commoners with crossbows sticking out of every window, it should be chock-full of death traps.
Hire mercenaries, particularly those with capabilities not available to the town. You need to cover the aerial angle- adventurers of that level can fly. Try renting trained attack griffons.
Have the local churches and clerical sects pray for help from their respective deities. Remember, according to the description of the "Legend Lore" spell, PCs of above 10th level are considered legendary- and legendary PCs diametrically opposed to a deities’ alignment means that he/she would be eager to stop them. A celestial or fiend can help turn the tide of the battle.
Release every criminal in the local lock-up, arm them, and tell them that if they kill one of the interlopers, they're free. If not, they die. Give them the benefits of the "Fanatic" attitude (+2AC, +2 to attack rolls, +2 to Will saves)
Make a command structure and de-centralize it. Give even the children rocks to throw. Make all children report directly to their parents. Units of about 20 adults (with any children "attached" to the adults) report to each member of the guard or other member of a PC class (guard, mage) Each one of these uses the existing command structure they have (e.g. guards report to captain, mages report to archmage, etc.) and all the leaders (e.g. guard captain, archmage) report to an overall leader. Make it clear that if one layer is cut off or killed, the affected unit is to keep acting against the PCs.
Send for help from a higher authority. The town is likely part of a greater nation or kingdom, with more resources than even the greatest PCs can hope to muster...and even 20th level characters can't last long against the assembled army of a kingdom.
There, that's it. Depending on the nature of your settlement, you may wish to ignore one or most of these rules, but every one of them will help you tremendously to defend your town from the might of your players.
Our group once decimated half a towns male population due to a misunderstanding created by role-playing . . . and we didn’t have a lot of magic at the time and were around level 7.
We are talking about level 20 characters here. Don't expect them to even concern themselves with this personally. The party Wizard or Cleric alone could annihilate the town alone through the use of summoning (Greater Planar Binding comes readily to mind). Characters of 20th level will almost certainly have the resources to bargain with a Balor (using the aforementioned spell) or similar powerful outsider (with damage reduction). The barricades with crossbowmen and children throwing rocks will be irritating, and likely swept away with one of its 'at will' spells.
Of course, Balors or other powerful outsiders are expensive to deal with (unless you simply promise the demon a wonderful sunny day of carnage on a hapless town, which they may accept on the virtue that it is quite evil), so that may not be an option, or even a preference for the PCs. So then, one must look at inexpensive alternatives. Creating large masses of Undead to even the score is also fairly viable. They don't eat, don't sleep, and don't stop fighting (this is dependent on the variety of Undead of course), and almost certainly outmatch the average human in battle prowess. Using different varieties of Undead is also advisable. For example, the party cleric, could create a Shadow, rebuke/control it. Then, the shadow could be sent into town to pass through walls, destroying villager after villager, creating more such monsters, likely overrunning the town. Due to it's incorporeality, it is unlikely that any one in the town could stop it, and once it started creating spawn, even townsfolk capable of damaging it could be layed low by the hordes of shadows. This particular option should not be used if there is something in the town the PCs care about, considering that a town of 2000 shadows is likely more dangerous than a town of 2000 villagers. The shadows, however, could be later layed low by the wizard or cleric, using a Magic Circle against Evil (cast by the wizard presumably), and using Dictum or Word of Chaos (hinging on the clerics alignment, the wizard would simply stay home in this particular event).
Other factors to consider are the possible manufacture of Armor of Invulnerability (If I recall correctly, conveys Damage Reduction 5/+1, listed in the DMG 3rd ed) for the PCs could make the majority of the town utterly useless against them. A 20th level monk also has notable damage reduction. Attacking during the night (or when they don't have greater magic weapon cast on their ammunition, finding out via various divination spells) could lay the peasantry low.
Twentieth level characters also may rule small nations or cities in their own right, or have a considerable group of followers (via the leadership feat). This, in combination with hired mercenaries could possibly amount to an army for the town to square with.
Subterfuge is also an option. The PCs could be polymorphed (or by use of the spell Seeming) to look like a caravan with supplies led by peasants or merchants. Once in the town, by cover of night, they could catch the inhabitants off-guard and unaware, possibly levelling a fair bit of the town before teleporting away.
Lastly, if the characters could care less about the town (and its contents) and depending on the time of year the party wizard or cleric could use the Control Weather to create a Hurricane, or cause a drought. With the use of Extend Spell and Enlarge Spell, these could be of fantastic size and length. Daily Tornadoes, Hurricanes or Hailstorms will batter the town to a paste without the PCs ever setting foot in. Of course, if it isn't quite your season, Earthquake from an invisible flying cleric is also an option.
In short, a town of 2000 NPCs is likely at the mercy of the next group of evil 20th level PCs. There is little they can do to match the resources and capabilities of a group wielding the abilities that high level PCs do.
-SmokeShadow
:invasion:
The first thing is to look at the notion of the “party of four, well balanced class wise, of characters of level 20.” A character of level 20 is at the highest point he or she can be without being “epic.” Four characters of level 20 clearly constitute an “epic” party in terms of an encounter. I point this out because this is overlooked in the most common straw man argument for the party of four.
If the party of four is epic, and assuming that the land isn’t covered with epic parties all over the place (an important assumption since it strongly increases the power of the town) then the epic party of four would be intuitively obvious the moment they manifested their combined epic powers. News would spread fast. They would be known and generally feared even by their allies. Whole armies would relocate based on rumors of their position.
In short a party of four just can’t “walk into a town.” They could just teleport into town, but unless they were in disguise, the news of their arrival would spread fast.
Now, Toptomcat’s argument isn’t about four characters of level 20, but four characters above level 10. There is a significant difference between four characters of level 10 and four characters of level 20. Given the numbers and the levels Toptomcat is using, his argument is certainly reasonable.
I would like to conclude with one point, a point that tends to be overlooked by all sides of an argument. The point is that there really is no logical reason why a party of four should attack a town of 2,000 people in the first place. Even if they were somehow “successful” they cannot take over a town of such a size. In the first place, there is no single node of authority; there is the civil authority, the religious authority, the merchants, the guilds (and that includes the underground guilds such as the thieves and assassins) and ad hoc groups that form in any power vacuum. Four people simply do not have the ability to control a population of 2,000 people, even when epic. They can make life miserable, but they cannot control, even when using summoned creatures. If they try, and they succeed then they only become targets themselves, for any other party of four or army or any combination or multiple of the two.
If this is something that happens in your games a lot, perhaps your towns have heard of this sort of behaviour. Maybe all the towns in the area have developed an alert system regarding high-level characters.
I really like the thing about getting the lord of the land involved. This might be a situation you can force your players back onto the straight-and-narrow with a powerful Geas spell. "As punishment for your crimes, you must undertake a quest of such difficulty that you more than likely will die, but if you do not try, you certainly will!"
No town exists in a vacuum. Even if everyone in the town was killed, the news would spread to neighboring communities, and then to the respective ruler of the area. This ruler would never allow such genocide to go unpunished! He would probably send soldiers, with back up from experienced adventurers- do-good paladins, bounty hunters, and anyone else looking for money, or fame.
Since there is no cable news to rely on, the news would spread mostly by gossip and rumor, aided by divinations. Before you know it your 10th level evil PC's will now be thought of as a horde of demons takign over the planet, in the eyes of the common folk. They would panic and demand that the powers that be save them from this menace!
Dont forget that any church that was located in the sacked town would quite possibly invoke the anger of the Deity involved. Same thing with most other organizations- Mage guild, Thieves guild, and trade organizations. Merchants cant make money when their patrons are being killed.
I think that a group of mid level adventurers stupid enough to attack a town is looking at a short existence as a fugitive. Everyone will be after their hides, even other evil groups since they would not want to risk receiving the attention this will certainly bring.
Just my opinion, but it is something that any evil character will probably think of sooner or later!!
Originally posted by Loopy
Well, I for one find the editorial helpful. If PCs are fighting the poor residents of a town, it's likely to be spur-of-the-moment. Planned assaults by PCs is not what irritates DMs. These are more likely than not a part of the adventure. What's so irritating is the fact that some players think it's perfectly allright to mow down a few commoners and come away unscathed.
Maybe because they are right !!
Few commoners for an evil party are the equivalent of a bunch of ordinary orcs to a 10 level Paladin.
In both case they should be dealt easily if the need arise.
And their lord would not be greatly concerned (unless Good) about the deat of a few peasant.
Heck in the midle ages you could simply pay him for the damage done and get along.
Of course a whole town is another matter ;)
Crossbows? Feh, any 20th-level wizard can easily lay waste to an army of impromtu militia (read: commoners), dealing more than enough damage to wipe them out with a single fireball, and even standard warriors (levels 1-3, averaging 5-16 hp) will fall unless the wizard rolls minimum damage (and thats assuming they are at least 2nd-level or make their Reflex save, which is unlikely).
Couple this with even more deadly spells and essentially a single wizard could make short work of even a large city, especially if he were to cast several protective spells ahead of time.
Lead walls? Rigtho, how many cities have enough lead (or much of any lead) and the time to coat their walls? Even with a day of preparation it aint gonna happen. Also, what good is blocking divination going to do? The wizard can simply cast any number of spells to annihilate those behind the wall.
Basically spellcasters or extremely skilled and powerful ranged combatants have the easiest time with this, as a melee warrior must plod around killing everyone one by one, giving hundreds of people time to flee.
Spread the word? How? A group of stragglers must first flee the town (easier said than done, although the larger the city the more likely a character might overlook something, sewers make the job easier). In broad daylight unless the city has walls or is very large a fleeing person might not be terribly hard to spot, especially from the air (something all high-level characters have). Also, assuming someone manages to escape, it would be several days (more or less depending on the person) to the next town, and even then they might get killed or suffer some other disaster, and finally if its some crummy hamlet then they would have to send a runner themselves to get to a town with the means to actually stop the marauding team.
Guess what?
There's not a whole lot out there besides extremely powerful angels and fiends or another party of high-level adventurers that can stop them, and even those are rare or in short supply. There is simply no way that a township or even a large city can pray to stop said party. Slow them down? Its possible, but not by much. Even if the town boasts its own selection of heroes, they are simply postponing the inevitable by being the first lambs to the slaughter.
To illustrate, in a one shot adventure in which we were just supposed to make 15th-level evil characters I made a fire genasi evoker/war wizard with a theme for fire.
The rest of the party consisted of a 15th-level fighter and cleric (of death of course). We were supposed to retrieve an individual from a medium-sized town, which was easily viewed from cliff side. Mind you, this was in 3E, so I was able to caste haste, then mage armor, followed by shield and fly, followed finally by cat's grace and fox's cunning.
After this I was able to easily fly into the town, grab the nearest person, and immediately grab the nearest person to interrogate for the person. He simply pointed the direction to her, and as I flew off I dropped a widened fireball into his lap, instantly killing him and all those around him within a 30 foot radius. Some people panicked (those that saw and were out of the blast radius), while the rest decidely ran to the scene to examine the explosion and screams. They were also quickly silenced, and I was able to zip around the area carpet bombing it, using chain lightning when I finally found the person to avoid killing her (I used ray of enfeeblement to drain her Strength to zero) and then I was able to wipe out the rest of the town, disintigrate the dragon that came to help (an adult one, rolled a nat 1, I was happy AND relieved!) and get back to the rest of the party before they were able to plod on over.
Originally posted by JoeX
Maybe because they are right !!
Let me reiterate. I find it insulting that they think they can come away unscathed by THE DM.
"Hey, let's go kill some commoners!"
"Yeh, what a great idea!"
Stab! Stab! "Ha! Ha! Stupid commoner!!!"
KA-POW!!!!
"What the hell happened to Bob????"
"I think it's revenge from that Level 25 Wizard over there.... he looked a heck of alot like one of these stupid commoners!!!"
"I think it's the DM's revenge for him naming his character Bob."
"I look alot like the rest of these 'stupid commoners' because this is where I grew up. This is my home and I thought I could settle down here in peace! Raaaaa! Well, at least I can test whether or not I can erase you from the face of the planet, while leaving your shoes perfectly intact!!!"
KA-POW!!!!
"Aiiieeeeeeeeee......!"
1) High powered adventurers are not that common. Sure there's bound to be a town or two with some adventurers in it, but having individuals stronger than the PCs in every town damages the campaign a lot more than the loss of a single town. According to the DMG and the NPCs in the Community section (pg 139 3.0) it would be utterly impossible that a town of 2,000 individuals would have anything above 8th level around. And if they DID have a special case living there you can bet the PCs would have heard about it.
Towns like to brag about UBER wiz calling the place home. Look at Shadowdale in FR as a peak example of this.
Now, the problem with the crossbows is a simple 3rd level spell called Wind Wall. The mage walks up in plain sight of the walls, well within x-bow range and with a single use of this spell is immune to any ranged attacks those villagers could throw at him. Then all he needs is a few AoF spells and the walls are suddenly devoid of defenders.
Not to mention the difficulty the town would have dealing with the hordes of Demons/Devils the Wizard could summon. A wand of Summon Monster 4 could summon up a small army of Dretch in a matter of rounds. Especially if you have the Rogue, Cleric, AND the wizard doing it from behind the wind wall.
I do commend you for the suggestion of using the single use items that the merchants might have. Unfortunately given that a town of 2,000 like the one you used in your example has a GP limit of 800gp meaning the most combative item that town can afford is a necklace of prayer beads (blessing). Magical arrows like the sleep arrow would be good to have kicking around. But that town would be unable to afford even a single sword +1.
Thus, all the party needs is a few DR granting spells, and a handful of elemental resistances and they're set.
And unfortunately 20th level characters are quite capable of annihilating an entire army themselves. That's why they're high level. The Fighter is virtually untouchable by the common Joe, As is the Cleric. A few good buff spells and even the rogue can charging into the thick of it, sneak attacking while under Improved Invis the whole time, guaranteeing a death with each strike. All while the cleric makes use of their healing and offensive magics with the Wizard in the air blasting the legions to dust. Don't forget the high level wizard's tendency to carry wands. 50 charges from a wand of fireballs can quite easily decimate an army enough to make them reconsider their attack.
The unfortunate fact remains that the only way to take out a group of high level adventurers, is with high level adventurers. As much as we DMs may like our towns. There really isn't anything we can do to save them.
.Did he live in the same type of barracks where commoners live? Did he wear the same rags that commoners wear? How many small villages exist in random campaign world compared to the number of 25 level wizards?
Yes, that scenario could in theory happen. As, in theory , yours low level party going against a group of ordinary orcs could find an ancient RED DRAGON living polymorphed between the orcs and get wasted. But would you not consider the DM an idiot for creating such impossible scenario?
If they want something from the town, wouldn’t a demonstration of force, or subterfuge be better than an assault?
Somewhere, in some forgotten world of a known munchkin, I'm sure this happened, but not in my world and not in the world of an intelligent DM (unless you have a rather interesting plot to go off of).
Originally posted by JoeX
How much credible is a 25 level Wizard living amidst commoners without anybody knowing that
The point isn't being credible. The point is to PUNISH your players for being idiots. It is one of the DMs many duties. He has every right to create hyperbolic situations in order to steer their group in the right direction... you know, the direction with the sign that says "Stupid people don't go this way," written on it.
Originally posted by Loopy
The point isn't being credible. The point is to PUNISH your players for being idiots. It is one of the DMs many duties. He has every right to create hyperbolic situations in order to steer their group in the right direction... you know, the direction with the sign that says "Stupid people don't go this way," written on it.
The only idiot to be punished here is the DMs who harass players for playing their characters according to their alignment. For an EVIL PC, bullying commoners is as much as natural as helping them for GOOD PCs. After all there is a reason why they are called EVIL.
A DM can disallow evilly aligned PC before the campaign starts but if he allows John Smith to play a cleric of Nerull, he cannot punish him because he act like a cleric of Nerull. A DM who forces too much the PCs in a specific direction is a bad DM. Read page 45 (bad structure) of the DMG.
If a party of four 20th-level characters waltzed into town, assuming normal geography of a medieval world (most points of civilization beings miles apart) there's really nothing that a town could do to stop their conquest, even with several days of preparation.
Whilst technically accurate, that does not sound like the normal geography of a medieval world, or at least it was not the geography of the only real example we know of.
Most towns in Europe were established by the middle ages. The average distance from one settlement to its nearest neighbors in populated areas of medieval England was 2 miles. In less populated areas such as Dartmoor, it was 6 miles. Basically, all good farmland is occupied and the distance between settlements was determined by far people were willing to walk to work in the morning and back in the evening, i.e. about a mile.
Points of civilization will of course be on good farmland.
Of course the aftermath is where the PCs are vulnerable. If they choose to control the town they have to deal with guerilla insurgents, etc. (Probably not anything like Vietnam, but at the least they can expect to have their food spat in and their belongings defaced.) Second, anyone that goes around taking out small villages WILL attract the attention of the local lord eventually. And he WILL have resources to deal with them, or allies that do. Lords tend to have linking allegiances, allowing them to group en masse to deal with such epic / deadly threats.
Additionally, just as there are high level goody two shoes PC's looking for really obvious evil to smite, so are there the occasional such NPC. A high level evil PC party that doesn't do a good job of keeping a low profile will eventually attract the directed attention of that world's forces of good. Armies of paladins on silver dragons are undoubtedly waiting for some epic battle to die in. Admittedly, that is a far-fetched response, but there should be some mustering of the forces of good to re-take the town, or go on a search and destroy to take out the evil-doers.
Therein lies the "defense". Any high level PC knows that any powerful action they take will NOT go un-noticed. If sacking a small village doesn't offer some huge reward, they should be smart enough to realized they shouldn't do so, regardless of alignment.
The problem here is you are thinking of things completely backwards. You do not create the world and figure out how the inhabitants would defend against the PCs. You make adventures for the PCs to take part in.
That the adventure takes place in a town full of weak inhabitants, but overall the adventure should be approximately equal to the PCs. The challenge should be appropriate.
Well there are (let me count them...) 7 PCs and soon to be a possibly eighth. Granted not all play at once, and it's usually four to five at any given time... anyways, we happen to be around 16th level and are currently planning to take over a few cities... my character, the mastermind of this plot (its our job to start the problems, as evil characters...) went by it with the DM and he thought it was a wonderful idea..
Now... our first target is a Large city, even a large city is going to be hard pressed to stop such a large group such as ourselves, that being if we went headfirst and charged into battle... our plan is much more subtle than that and the cities will be ours (mine) in no time flat..
Another thing that you guys have to take into account is the allies that such characters possess, for example my character has been working with baatezu since 5th level and has acquired an enormous amount of backing from certain noble baatezu that I have worked with in the past, they're certainly interested in the prospect of my realm and will certainly aid me if my plan seems reasonable.. Now, as for the other characters... there are 2 arcane casters in our group... sorcerers each of them, one having a knack for illusions and the other having a knack for enchantment and transmutation. Two magical beings of such awesome might taking up residence in a town will certainly bring many a student to bend to their (my) will, even if they don't have the capacity for sorcery, the vast amounts of knowledge that these characters wield is enough to get students going.
As for the 2 thieves in our group... one has a major organization behind him (him being a major crime lord), the other being a loner... stick these two together (honor among thieves as it is, and devotion to my work) and they will make quick work of any existing organizations, slaughtering their leaders and replacing themselves. It’s nice to have an organization of thieves, scouts, spies and such backing you...
Ah yes, our fighters... (1 at the moment, possibly 2 being the character concept of the possible new member) they have their place to...
Ah, our cleric... he's the most potent channeler of divine magic in the area up until quite a distance away where we wish to take over, he's absolutely insane, his power is absolutely ridiculous (he doesn't even comprehend the concept of min/maxing, he relishes in the role playing opportunities) is fond of the healing arts (he is after all a sadomasochist, nothing better to keep you going)... for such a psychologically sick and twisting motive as our own he'll delight in healing up the peasant population... after all what good are the slaves(soon to be) if they can't even function at full health?
We’re not going to take this place by force, that's so uncouth and so very boring... it would make a spectacle to behold and the surrounding countryside would rally against us and ruin or fun... no, we're going to take it over and no one will even notice, at least not right away.. Corrupt the population until they are as cold as us, and move on...
Oh well, that's poorly written up... it's just an idea of what's going on... but there was a point: that being that it's not so easy to stop the PCs as you would have said it is.. The resources we can muster is beyond the ken of the entire population of a city, and the socio-political strings that we can pull outweigh any of our physical might (which is to say the least, far from inconsequential)... ooh I can't wait! Did I mention that we once slaughtered a pit fiend, several advanced efreet that were working with the pit fiend, and the pit fiend’s regiment of barbazu +? Now... IMHO that is more force than I expect we would face if we wished to take the city by storm.
That said, a group of level 20s would still decimate the town in question, but the Realms have quite a few high level good guys & many ways of sending info quickly (portals & such) so as to make life for the afflicting players quite hard in the weeks to come.
All this is assuming of course that you are playing an evil campaign. I really never like to run any games with evil alignments.
Originally posted by stembolt
It has taken me a while to figure out exactly what is wrong with this post and I finally have. I could not quite put my finger on it until now.
The problem here is you are thinking of things completely backwards. You do not create the world and figure out how the inhabitants would defend against the PCs. You make adventures for the PCs to take part in.
That the adventure takes place in a town full of weak inhabitants, but overall the adventure should be approximately equal to the PCs. The challenge should be appropriate.
But the assumption is that attacking the town isn’t part of an adventure, its a dumb-player-whim type of thing.
And I don’t agree that everything should be tailored to the players. The general setting should be independent of them, and internally consistent. Specific adventures, of course, should be tailored to the party.
For example, an NPC that the party shouldn’t fight, e.g. the captain of the town guard, should be whatever level is reasonable given the power level of your campaign. He needs to be good enough to command the respect of the guard, but it not so powerful that its silly that he’d be slumming it in such a minor role. I don’t think he should be powered up to 10th level because the party is high level and are looking for trouble...
Of course, if the captain is a spy for the BBEG, and you plan an adventure involving him, then he should be an appropriate challenge for the type of adventure you want. (You might want to make him beatable: you might want him invincible, depending on the plot.)
1: Use antimagic spells or items. Trap the party in an enclosed area with an antimagic effect, and their effectiveness will be cut in half. Either have a wizard (who should otherwise memorize a lot of buffing spells to use on allies, and maybe some summoning spells as well) to cast this, or have a wand of antimagic handy.
2: Don't let them move. Uses mundane or magical means to cut off any escape routes-bar doors, drop boulders, collapse walls, etc. While the defenders might not be able to retreat, the party won't be able to leave the antimagic field.
3: Attack from above. Normally, a PC would have no problem casting a Fly spell or something similar, and then annihilating any threat from above. But without magical assistance, a group of crossbowmen could deal a lot of damage to mid-level PCs without risking their own hides. Even better, drop boulders, flaming barrels of oil, or alchemist's fire. Any mundane items that could ruin armor or weaponry is perfect for this situation.
Leading the PCs to a small courtyard or canyon, trapping them, and then unleashing death from above would be an effective way to send a clear message that mass murder is a no-no.
I agree with those that say the high level characters would have little to no trouble destroying a small town. Notice I say destroy because, as someone else mentioned, taking one over would be much more difficult without underlings. As an aside and reverse argument, if you look to the writings of R.A. Salvatore for example (he seems to incorporate D&D into a novel rather well) you'd notice that even the Lady of Silvermoon wouldn't be able to take over a city single handedly, one regiment of Drow nearly ended her existence. Granted the Drow regiment couldn't be equated to an average town surely a whole cities defenses in Faerun would be able to muster enough defense to combat a Drow regiment. Does that make sense?.
Now (agreeing that a mage could destroy a town), if one such town were utterly destroyed by some evil mage venting some whim or urge maybe very little would be done as long as the local governing body didn't find out (ie. no survivors). A survivor escaping to report the incident would provide an excellent allure for a party of good aligned adventurers (isn't this the sort of thing that DMs look for?).
Another scenario sees the same high level mage on a rampage destroying multiple towns. This would bring swift opposition. There are of course other high level people in the country and nations can't stand for this sort of thing or the power of the nation is undermined.
Even evil needs motive. Destroying a town has no pay off really. Beginning a campaign to take over a city for the rewards of power and riches is where evil aligned empires come from. Destroying towns because the maturity level is lacking is something the DM has to deal with based on how he views his own world.
Just my ramblings on the subject. I know as DM I wouldn't allow the destruction of a town or city without retribution unless it was attempted thoughtfully and with regional politics in mind (like the campaign Adrius and his partners are undertaking).
Let them destroy the towns.
Hell, let them destroy the cities.
Then PUNISH THEM. Punish them with all of the righteous might you can muster!! A 20th-level party, eh? Let's watch them romp across the land, burning villages and razing cities. When a major city in your pantheon begins to falter and crumble under their 20th-level might, send two Solars, two Trumpet Archons, a 20th level Paladin, a level 20 Cleric, a 20th-level Exalted Wizard and an old hermit... a 20th-level Exalted Monk.
PUNISH THEM.
1. If your players want to attack a town, LET THEM DO IT. They're doing it because they think it's FUN.
2. If you think PCs attacking towns is fun too, follow the instructions in the post above, and see if the players can cope. It should provide a very interesting and different challenge.
3. If you think PCs attacking towns is not fun, definitely do not punish them!!! Nobody plays D&D in order to get punished. Instead, try TALKING with the players about what it means to play a role, about alignment, about what direction everyone wants the campaign to take, etc. If it turns out that your players all want to be marauding powergaming munchkins and you are looking for deep-immersion story-telling, either you have a lot of work to do, or it may be time to turn over the mantle of DM to someone else.
-- 77IM
It'll be fun once. Maybe twice. They'll bore of that sort of nonsense eventually, especially due to the amount of attention it draws (see: "Punish them!" above).Originally posted by stembolt
It has taken me a while to figure out exactly what is wrong with this post and I finally have. I could not quite put my finger on it until now.
The problem here is you are thinking of things completely backwards. You do not create the world and figure out how the inhabitants would defend against the PCs. You make adventures for the PCs to take part in.
That the adventure takes place in a town full of weak inhabitants, but overall the adventure should be approximately equal to the PCs. The challenge should be appropriate.
This may be off-topic, but I would consider this only one kind of DMing. Basing your campaigns around worlds and basing them around adventures are 2 different but equally valid ways to run a campaign. IMO, Your Joe-average town in the middle of kingdom X is unlikely to be anyways ready for assault by a party of 10th level or up. They would invariably find a way past the defenses and smash the resistance post-haste. (Otherwise how did they beat those dungeons to get to 10th level?). However, any sizeable kingdom in a D&D world should have some access to high-level, if not epic-level resources of one kind or another. After the 2nd or 3rd town, they should start to make themselves known.
Originally posted by Loopy
How can it POSSIBLY be fun? Whoopee lookit me! I killed another 4000 harmless people.
The PCs can kill 4000 people only if the DM doesn't know what roleplaying is. Ordinary people don't fight to the death against over helming forces. They submit, pay tributes or simply hand them the keys of the city. Like they did in real life. At worst, they can simply run and scatter; catching 4000 people running away in all the directions is beyond the power even of 20 level PCs.
The mage looking at the crystal ball 50 miles to the north, "Oh my goodness" he teleports to the arch mage (likely lvl 15 at least and likely with some more powerful allies) "look at this problem sir"
A few seconds later the party is surprised when a couple lvl 15 (at least) wizards and a few other high level wizards pop up and tell them that they are under arrest. When they ignore them then they cast something deadly and are done with it, able to go home in time for dinner
Any large organization in the area is not going to like something that will reduce their power, prestige, or other such thing; and would likely reply with due speed and harshness
How about a nerfed game that doesn't allow that nonsense combo. How about, say four meteor swarms? That'll kill a few hundred right off the bat and then several hundred more will burn to death. Of course, your everyday level 20 party could, if they were all Sorcerers conceivably cast 12 of these in 4 rounds total, then after that hook the poor commoners up with some delayed blast fireballs. Better yet, cast the DBFs FIRST then the MetSwrms, so that you can get MAXIMUM body count.
Don't forget, kimosabe, the people in a city aren't taking up their customary 5' square.... it's more like 4 people per 5'square in the more congested areas.
So when you look at it, 4000 souls is an UNDERESTIMATE.
Like I said.
Punish them.
The only idiot to be punished here is the DMs who harass players for playing their characters according to their alignment. For an EVIL PC, bullying commoners is as much as natural as helping them for GOOD PCs. After all there is a reason why they are called EVIL.
...right. Well, when your GOOD PC invades the Sunless Citadel, the Temple of Elemental Evil, or whatever appropriate bastion of all that is unhallow, you give them blackguards and demons. There are EVIL people to stand in the way of them doing GOOD things.
Likewise, when your EVIL PC invades Goodston, there's a paladin there. There are GOOD people to stand in the way of them doing EVIL things.
But it's a funny image...
Cade: But I'm chaotic! Of course I'm stealing the dragon's horde! What do you mean, she cinders me to a bite-sized crisp? You're... you're... you're REPRESSING MY ALIGNMENT!
My DM: Go roll up a new character, you pansy. You had it coming.
That's what we DMs do! And the players find ways to work around it, and we make it difficult for them
This ties into the comment about world- and dungeon-based gaming. I run world-based campaigns, but the levels always stay accurate. By some arcane miracle, if the players reach the king's castle and invade it at 8th or 18th, it'll be even. Again, that's what we DMs do.
-B.
Originally posted by Loopy
Oh, really.... so you're saying that a flying character with a control weather spell and a call lightning spell can't kill 4000 people easily?
Only if they stand and fight. Rightly roleplayed peasants will run away and scatter. (It takes only 3 rounds to run outside the range of the spell.)
How about a nerfed game that doesn't allow that nonsense combo. How about, say four meteor swarms? That'll kill a few hundred right off the bat and then several hundred more will burn to death. Of course, your everyday level 20 party could, if they were all Sorcerers conceivably cast 12 of these in 4 rounds total, then after that hook the poor commoners up with some delayed blast fireballs. Better yet, cast the DBFs FIRST then the MetSwrms, so that you can get MAXIMUM body count.
You are exaggerating with hundreds of people with a single spell and see above answer.
Don't forget, the people in a city aren't taking up their customary 5' square. It's more like 4 people per 5' square in the more congested areas.
Or more likely, 5000 people spread on several miles since usually peasants have a lot of to do instead of hanging out with their pals.
So when you look at it, 4000 souls is an UNDERESTIMATE.
Since the peasants will surrender themselves way before the body count reaches that number, I doubt it can happen.
Like I said.
Punish them.
True DMs run their campaign in an objective manner Only power trippers punish their players.
Originally posted by Cade Underbough
...right. Well, when your GOOD PC invades the Sunless Citadel, the Temple of Elemental Evil, or whatever appropriate bastion of all that is unhallow, you give them blackguards and demons. There are EVIL people to stand in the way of them doing GOOD things.
Sure but these guys are here to provide an appropriate challenge to the PCs not to punish them. A challenge that the PCs are supposed to win if they play smart. Creating an impossible situation in order to punish the PCs is a different thing.
The greedy rogue who gets crisped by the Dragon he was trying to rob is OK; the PC knew the risk.
The rogue who enters a poor peasant hut in order to rob it and gets crisped by the house cat (a polymorphed dragon) because the DM wanted to punish the greedy player is not OK.
So we need to think in campaign terms, and as several people have already said, the campaign world should get all Chatelerian about an event like this. How often have the characters (by 20th level) hunted down and killed 20th level characters? Well this time, they are the villains and there are parties of glory hungry adventurers coming after them, perhaps when they are already exhausted after fighting some significant challenge. (I don't believe in tailored encounters either.)
No need to bring in outsiders, when the nations 'immune system' can handle the problem. And of course, by trashing a town they step on all sorts of toes.
Oh, and by the way, you with the evil PCs--WHY are they wanting to take down an entire city?
By some arcane miracle, if the players reach the king's castle and invade it at 8th or 18th, it'll be even. Again, that's what we DMs do.
Suspension of disbelief? In my world, if the King is 8th level when the party meets him and then a few months later they come back, he's still 8th level. Sure, your players have the power to do almost anything they want to commoners at high levels, that's the point.
If a group of evil people managed to get to 20th level without killing each other, then you've got a once in a planet's lifespan event on your hands anyway, so deities would probably intervene to restore order.
Of course, if the problem is one player or a fraction of the group, I'd send something to nullify them. Not punishment, you see, but nullification. A paladin on a silver dragon is a good example, but so could be a high enough level justicar or occult slayer who found out about the injustices somehow. Assassins work too, and have the added bonus of not really needing explanation. Of course, I'd run it all into some campaign I'd brew up, but the short of it is, if you have characters rampaging your country sides and that's not the game you want to run, then don't run the game.
I'm not suggesting quitting DMing, or even stop playing with those players, but at the very least, change the nature of the game. If your conscience would be better served by having them pillage hell, by all means have Nerull come down and say "You'd be better serving me over here" and 'poof' them there. Or maybe an encounter with a fiendworm. If you can't stand a character, tell the player to get a new one, or neutralize him.
Now, if you WANT the town to fight the PCs, for whatever reason that may be (for the sake of argument, lets say that it's actually part of the plot), then I suggest you do so realistically, and take a lot of scratch paper... even a hamlet is a large encounter by comparison.
As far as peasants running away... Phhhh! As if.... especially since ANY 20th-level character worth his salt will be flying and dive-bombing suckers left and right.
Originally posted by Toptomcat
There, that's it. Depending on the nature of your settlement, you may wish to ignore one or most of these rules, but every one of them will help you tremendously to defend your town from the might of your players.
One word: earthquake.
Two more words: meteor swarm
Another word: gate
Yet more words: horrid wilting, chain lightning, power word, will of the banshee, weird, firestorm. The list goes on and on...
Originally posted by Loopy
How do you "scatter" in a crowded city? Or are you talking about a simple thorpe ort village?
We are dealing with a town so from 900 - to 5000 people average 2950 (dmg page 137)
If you ARE, then the blast radii of all the delayed blast fireballs ONE Sorcerer can create in addition to, say ONE meteor swarm is enough to completely destroy any small village.
Well i just picked up the map of the village of homlet from the temple of Elemental Evil.
a fireball will hardly cover 0,5 % of the area of the map while a meteor swarm can get up to 8%.
And homlet is just a village not a town.
If it's a slightly larger village, then it's a simple matter of creating a "ring of fire" which sets ablaze the outer buildings, creating an antswarm of panic in the middle.
The fire will burn down the buildings in the end but not before people will evacuate the town.
You are not dealing with New York here.
And how you set all the buildings at fire at the same moment?
As far as peasants running away... Phhhh! As if.... especially since ANY 20th-level character worth his salt will be flying and dive-bombing suckers left and right.
Even a 20 level PC can't get 2000 people running away in all the directions. And not all PC are spellcaster with area of effect spell. Plus why should they go after a defeated enemy? Assuming you can call a bunch of noncombatants “enemy.”
Then PUNISH THEM. Punish them with all of the righteous might you can muster!! A 20th-level party, eh? Let's watch them romp across the land, burning villages and razing cities. When a major city in your pantheon begins to falter and crumble under their 20th-level might, send two Solars, two Trumpet Archons, a 20th level Paladin, a level 20 Cleric, a 20th-level Exalted Wizard and an old hermit... a 20th-level Exalted Monk.
PUNISH THEM.
There better be a serious base on how the DM just pulls out those kind of NPCs or that's one bad campaign. Seriously, charges of "PUNISH THEM" are just as bad as anything the players will do.
Originally posted by Finwe
One word: earthquake.
Oooo. Nasty. Hadn't thought of that one.
Another word: gate
Jeebus. Definitely hadn't thought of that one. ::shudders::
I strongly suggest making it clear to your players that this sort of thing, although healthy for the God-complexes of their fragile Nerd Psyches is nothing compared to the fun they can have playing a real campaign. Sure it will help them forget about the bullies who gave them too much attention in middle school and the girls who did not for a few hours a week, but as cathartic as it is, it is detrimental to any sort of creative gaming.
A bunch of ogres or ettins, for instance, is a pretty decent CR encounter, and it's important to try to explain how a small agglomeration would survive in a land where you can run into them on a relatively frequent basis.
Similarly, a party of mid-high class-level creatures or PCs are pretty hard to defend against.
So what would your typical town do?
Well, let's make one:
Name: Liru Epenurston
Type: Large town Gold piece limit: 1,032 gp
Population: 2,438 Total wealth: 125,904 gp
Captain of the guard: Fighter level 2
Full-time guards: 24 Conscriptable individuals: 121
And let's generate a population:
Barbarian (total: 7)
- level 5: 1
- level 2: 2
- level 1: 4
Bard (total: 7)
- level 7: 1
- level 3: 2
- level 1: 4
Cleric (total: 15)
- level 8: 1
- level 4: 2
- level 2: 4
- level 1: 8
Druid (total: 15)
- level 8: 1
- level 4: 2
- level 2: 4
- level 1: 8
Fighter (total: 7)
- level 4: 1
- level 2: 2
- level 1: 4
Monk (total: 7)
- level 7: 1
- level 3: 2
- level 1: 4
Paladin (total: 7)
- level 5: 1
- level 2: 2
- level 1: 4
Ranger (total: 7)
- level 5: 1
- level 2: 2
- level 1: 4
Rogue (total: 7)
- level 7: 1
- level 3: 2
- level 1: 4
Sorcerer (total: 7)
- level 7: 1
- level 3: 2
- level 1: 4
Wizard (total: 7)
- level 5: 1
- level 2: 2
- level 1: 4
Adept (total: 18)
- level 8: 1
- level 4: 2
- level 2: 4
- level 1: 11
Aristocrat (total: 14)
- level 4: 1
- level 2: 2
- level 1: 11
Commoner (total: 2,115)
- level 15: 1
- level 7: 2
- level 3: 4
- level 1: 2,108
Expert (total: 76)
- level 9: 1
- level 4: 2
- level 2: 4
- level 1: 69
Warrior (total: 122)
- level 8: 1
- level 4: 2
- level 2: 4
- level 1: 115
Here we go.
So how do people in this town protect themselves from high-level danger?
First, on the military part, the standard town militia is composed of 122 warriors, most level 1, but with a few higher level ones. I imagine the higher level guys are commanders and squad leaders, which would mean that everyone together could be arranged in 4 squads of 25 or so level 1 warriors, commanded by a level 2 Warrior. 25 people with Martial Weapon Proficiencies and armor use is pretty decent. Give half of them shortspears and tower shields, the other half crossbows or bows, and you've got enough to take out most low-level threats.
When it comes to higher level stuff, though, you start getting problems. Anything with good AC, HP or movement will make short work of the militia. But it's not necessarily the end of it. First we've got those 3 paladins in there, which is good, since you can alway count on them to defend the innocent townsfolk. Also, the three rangers would probably have no qualms about defending the town. The 18 adepts and the mages and clerics could also keep most 4-7 CR creatures down. After all, CR is against 4 adventurers, not against 30-150 people determined to just drive you off.
But that's only against low intelligent creatures. Things become tougher against intelligent foes.
Let's say a party of 4 10th level adventurers wants to destroy the town. What happens then?
Well, the first problem is Invisibility. Invisible, or worse, Greater Invisible creatures could cause massive damage on our town, simply because no one can hit them back.
Fortunately, we've got a rather large amount of citizens who can cast See Invisibility, including 3 of the Adepts, which is nice. It's not unrealistic to believe that the higher level militia would have some kind of item to reveal invisible. A Lantern of Revealing would be pretty costly, but a command word [/i]Helm of Seeing Invisible[/i] wouldn't be that pricey. Yes, it means that you'd have dead militia people as soon as an invisible intruder attacked, but the better fighters could have something to fight them off with. If one of the better spellcasters has Invisibility Purge, you could make an item with that instead, which could come out cheaper (with charges). Don't forget spells like Alarm and Mage's Faithful Hound.
Flight is the other problem ability. Again, something that flies is more dangerous because it can attack without taking hits back. Obviously, missile weapons and cover (or tower shields) helps a lot, but magical flight can be made harder to use with things like Wands of Dispel Magic, which our clerics can make. That's a costly investment at 11,000 gp, but since it's not every day that you're attacked by a mad mage, you don't have to replace them too often. Mundane means of countering flight is also useful, like nets.
Finally, there's the matter of skill level. Let's say our villains meet the majority of the 6-8th level population of the town, kill them, and start moving on to the rest. 20-40 level 1 warriors aren't that frightening, even if they all practiced using the Aid Another action to boost attack rolls and AC. It's time to run away to better defensive positions. And the best one of those is the local church. Even if the local priest of whoever can't cast it himself, it's not unreasonable to believe the church gets a Hallow cast on it every year (a good yearly investment for 6,000 gp per scroll), and that allows for good possibilities. First, the whole place is protected by Circle against Evil which means no summoned outsiders will be touching anyone inside. So there's the defense against demons and such, wait them out where they can't touch you. Also, lots of bonuses against undead, and protection from them turning your townsman's corpses into more monsters to come and get you. Last, that one spell you can tie to it can make a big difference. Aid pretty much doubles the BAB and hp of a level 1 Warrior, which isn't too shabby when you've got 20 left. Silence, Deeper Darkness or Cause Fear can make the job of killing your defenders a lot harder, Dispel Magic can make a previously unkillable attacker a lot more vulnerable.
In general, you'll want some use-activate, charged items made for some of the more useful items. Your better warriors will have potions of various sorts, and perhaps custom items depending on local conditions.
Now, what happens if something worse comes around?
Well, the town's got a problem. There's just not enough power there to contain something like CR 15 encounters. Are they done for, though? Not necessarily. For one thing, there's plenty of ways to communicate with the outside world for help. Sending is a 4th level cleric spell, which means our level 8 Cleric can use it to call for help. More importantly, he can scribe it, which means if any cleric is alive, they can try to call for reinforcements. Don't forget the lesser spells, like Whispering Wind, which the bards and arcane casters can use. Nobody can teleport, but some can fly, or use Phantom Steed, or even run for help (that level 7 monk can probably go at a decent clip). If anyone has invested a bit of money for it, there might be an one-use item with Teleport on it, or even a permanent Teleport Circle.
Of course, it could be that whoever makes it out of the village won't get to help in time to prevent it from being destroyed, and that's certainly a possibility. But smart DMs can make the job challenging. Remember that people can hide, and that people who defend their homes will use terrain and tactics to their advantage.
Either force is going to be either 'recruited' or destroyed by a more powerful evil force (the 15th-level Fighter Half-Dragon Fiendish Ogre Mage who commands the humanoid legions against civilization; the 20th-level Wizard/Archmage who secretly controls him; the Xixecal abomination whose resurrection the archmage recently completed; or the God of Icy Death who fathered the Xixecal and, though he's not exactly PROUD of it, per say, looks after his boy) or hunted down by a more powerful good force (the Young Adult Gold Dragon rumored to lair in the nearby mountains; the 20th-level elven Paladin who befriended the dragon's mother centuries before; the 25th-level Paladin, secretly a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, grandmaster to the elf and father to the younger dragon; or Bahamut).
This isn't metagaming or 'punishing' players for playing their (apparently Chaotic) Evil PCs - it's subjecting them to the same treatment that NPC villains would get. If they defeat each challenge, fine; but don't believe the hype about villains being the ones who start everything - seems to me, the (good) PCs usually attack the DUNGEON, not the other way around.
Anyway, if you want to get NASTY with the PCs, don't have a 25th-level Wizard live in a dumpy little town; have his 'fell in love with a peasant boy and ran off to live with him but daddy still loves me' daughter live in the dumpy little town.
Remember... everyone in the village has family.... knows people... has friends. And every action has repercussions. So what happens next?
1) Survivors will make their way to the nearest village or city and report the slaughter. Descriptions will be given, along with an account of the story. High level characters will probably be recognized by their appearance, possessions or tactics. If not, there will probably be some divination spells used to ascertain their identities.
2) The lord of the land will probably want revenge. No ruler likes his or her authority usurped. A destroyed village is an insult. A lord who lets towns be arbitrarily destroyed will be seen as weak, to his underlings, his lord and his allies - not to mention his enemies. He cannot afford to allow it to go unchecked. The lord will want to retaliate... in most cases. So what will he do?
1) Beef up defenses on his keep and on other towns
2) Mobilize the army to deal with them
3) Hire mercenaries to deal with them
4) Beseech the clergy of his country, etc. to go after them -
Possibly with planar allies, etc.
5) Ask for help from allies - this would be under some sort of
Mutual assistance treaty.
Here's an example.
The lord hears about the slaughter, so he hires the best mercenaries he can, posts a reward for information, etc. He also gets his court wizard to make signaling devices. When an attack happens again, the town signals and the mercenaries teleport in, ready to deal with the PCs. They will have the advantage of knowing their enemy and common tactics, since by this time they will be infamous. The king’s army, elite guard, wizard troop, may accompany them or whatever other resources the lord has.
Think in terms of America's old west especially your higher quality westerns. It’s not uncommon for a gang of evil outlaws to ride in and basically take over. You know kill the sheriff and set up shop. The townsfolk live in fear until Wayat Earp or Lone Ranger or the like rides in to right the wrong and end injustice. Now if your PCs aren’t interested in setting up summer homes then try this on for size. The little Indian Village being decimated by the US cavalry in an instant. Its unfortunate but these things will happen.
As pointed out, pretty much all of this falls apart at epic levels. But a good strong law system with a lot of resources to back it up should be plenty to keep the players in line till close to 20. Fear will keep them inline after a while as they think "should we sack this town, or is it possible the Kingdom of XXX has hired another group of wizards and they were scrying us and are now awaiting us in this town". Suddenly the meager wealth and the butchering of low-end peasants does not seem so inviting.
The village, however, will not survive. Now, I don't know, why evil level 20 PCs would destroy a village of 2000 just for the fun of it. This kind of behaviour would only have prevented them from becoming level 20 in the first place, since you make a lot of powerful enemies that way and are, quite simply, not going to survive that long. Neither did the Wild West outlaws who took over the city, by the way. So there has to be at least an adventure plot that requires the PCs to destroy that village (whatever that might be . . . no, nothing comes to mind, since that kind of train of thought should be very alien to most normal human beings and players - but, hey, you say tomato, I say tomato). Maybe the DM wants the PCs to become enemies of the state?
For lower levels, I think a village of 2000 is a very interesting challenge, just as any village of 2000 orcs or something that "good" PCs are quite willing to slaughter most of the time.
The DMG has the information one needs to see how many people of what class and level are in the town. From there you can form a defense strategy (which has already been done already in this thread in a very good way, IMHO). That would be for a head to head confrontation (the town on the one side of the fence, the PCs camp on the other).
For a situation in which PCs are not rying to take over the town by force but by stealth and manipulation, they would need allies in the town. That would require good roleplaying and would be even more interesting. Does everybody have a price or a button to press? Or do some of the townspeople look through the PC's scheme and try to prevent it?
I remember a Warhammer adventure called "Power behind the throne", where evil NPCs are trying to take over the city of Middenheim. They worked with influence points in this adventure and certain people had more points to influence the ruler of the city than others. The PCs had to find out which NPCs had what kind of influence on the ruler, win these NPCs over and find out how they were bribed, threatened or drugged to work in the evil NPCs favor. And then, of course, kill the evil guys. All of that was mixed up with a festival that was going on in the city. Very interesting, I can only recommend it. And that was a city of over 10,000 I guess.