Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 valeyard Apr 22, 2008 13:06:34	I'm thinking about introducing the Defense check variant into my game from Unearthed Arcana p 133. The only problem is that the variant rules seem to give the PC's a greater chance of avoiding blows than the standard rules. If a character's AC is 22 and the monster's attack bonus is +14 (+1d20) there is a 7/20 chance of the attack failing. Using the variant in the same scanario gives an Attack score of 25 and a defense check of 12 (+1d20) resulting in an 8/20 chance of the attack failing as shown on the table below:- (Std = standard rules where monster adds d20 roll to Attack Bonus vs AC ; Variant = new rules where character adds d20 roll to Armour Bonus [AC - 10] vs Attack Score [Attack Bonus + 11]:- Die Roll Std Variant 01 15 miss 13 hits 02 16 miss 14 hits 03 17 miss 15 hits 04 18 miss 16 hits 05 19 miss 17 hits 06 20 miss 18 hits 07 21 miss 19 hits 08 22 hits 20 hits 09 23 hits 21 hits 10 24 hits 22 hits 11 25 hits 23 hits 12 26 hits 24 hits 13 27 hits 25 miss 14 28 hits 26 miss 15 29 hits 27 miss 16 30 hits 28 miss 17 31 hits 29 miss 18 32 hits 30 miss 19 33 hits 31 miss 20 34 hits 32 miss Am I missing something? Should the UA read that the defense check must be greater than the attack score to avoid the blow? I've tried this with several different numbers but there is the same problem and I'm wondering whether I'm mis-reading something or whether there is an error in the variant's algebra!
#2 valeyard Apr 22, 2008 13:09:30	Sorry - the table didn't come out as well as I hoped. The first column is the die roll (1d20), the second column is the result using the standard rules - Attack Bonus + die roll (column 1), the third column is the event ie hit or miss (ignoring criticals which I've got a hold on), the forth column is the result using the variant rules - Defense Check + die roll (column 1) the last column is the event ie hit or miss (ignoring criticals which I've got a hold on)
#3 roguewiz_dup Apr 22, 2008 13:32:59	Attack Score: 11 + BAB Defense Score: 1d20 + AC Modifiers (Total AC - 10) Using the example from d20srd, an Ogre has a standard BAB of 8. This his attack score is +19. A PC with a 20 ac, has 10ac worth of modifiers. He makes his roll and rolls a 8 on the d20. 8 + 10 = 18. The check fails and the PC is hit. If he rolled a 1, it would be a critical threat. He makes another check. If he fails to avoid the hit, the critical succeeds. Tie = goes to the defender < attack score = Attacker hits > attack score = Attack misses
#4 valeyard Apr 22, 2008 16:26:29	Attack Score: 11 + BAB Defense Score: 1d20 + AC Modifiers (Total AC - 10) Using the example from d20srd, an Ogre has a standard BAB of 8. This his attack score is +19. A PC with a 20 ac, has 10ac worth of modifiers. He makes his roll and rolls a 8 on the d20. 8 + 10 = 18. The check fails and the PC is hit. If he rolled a 1, it would be a critical threat. He makes another check. If he fails to avoid the hit, the critical succeeds. Tie = goes to the defender < attack score = Attacker hits > attack score = Attack misses Yes, I've done all that but the problem I've got is that it does not give the same percentage chance of an attack being successful - hence the table. As far as I can see there should be the same chance that the attack is successful. The only difference being who rolls the dice.
#5 augurer Apr 22, 2008 18:54:52	So change the wording to indicate the the Defense Check has to exceed the Attack Score and you have the result you want. I don't understand the purpose of this thread. You know the solution, so why are you asking others what it is?
#6 roguewiz_dup Apr 22, 2008 19:16:09	I see where your problem is. Normally, a tie goes to the attacker. However, using this Variant, it goes to the defender. Keep in mind, in the beginning, this is a powerful variant. It will be rather easy for PCs to avoid damage. As the game progresses, Attack bonus goes up at a much higher rate than armor. You might want to alter that part of the variant to give the tie to the attacker?
#7 valeyard Apr 22, 2008 19:21:27	So change the wording to indicate the the Defense Check has to exceed the Attack Score and you have the result you want. I don't understand the purpose of this thread. You know the solution, so why are you asking others what it is? To make sure I'm not missing something. There isn't an erata for UA and if I'm bringing in a variant rule for something as fundamental as combat mechanics I want to be 100% sure. Also, highlighting the problem for others if I am right.
#8 valeyard Apr 22, 2008 19:42:01	Yes, I think I'll make the tie go with the attacker. I'd considered making the Attack Score = Attack Bonus +12 with the tie going to the defender but I can see my player's getting suspicious!
#9 holy_beholder Apr 22, 2008 21:17:18	That would make sense. Or you can keep both the attack and defense rolls, as according to the DMG.
#10 roguewiz_dup Apr 23, 2008 9:24:23	I've been in a game where Defense Checks were used. We had 7 players + the DM. If the DM was to roll everything, combat would move at the rate of a snail. Defense Checks are a two part thing. They get the players involved more and take some strain off the DM.