Show
Homework Assignment
4th Edition is still a ways off, but it’s never too early to start thinking of the dungeons you’re going to design. Here’s a little homework assignment for all of you: Pick two or three closely linked encounter areas on the sample dungeon map. While you obviously don’t have access to the new rules, you can still come up with ideas for encounters. Assuming that you can use four or five monsters, pick two or three encounter areas on the map and turn them into a single fight. Post your ideas in the 4th Edition forums and see what other gamers come up with.
4th Edition is still a ways off, but it’s never too early to start thinking of the dungeons you’re going to design. Here’s a little homework assignment for all of you: Pick two or three closely linked encounter areas on the sample dungeon map. While you obviously don’t have access to the new rules, you can still come up with ideas for encounters. Assuming that you can use four or five monsters, pick two or three encounter areas on the map and turn them into a single fight. Post your ideas in the 4th Edition forums and see what other gamers come up with.
My encounter occurs in rooms 31, 32, & 33.
4 Orc Warriors
1 Ogre
1 Worg
The PCs have come down the hall from 27 and deside to go straight instead of turning towards the door to 31. They reach the T intersection and deside to go right first. At the end of the hallway they see the bedchambers of the Ogre Warlord who has been leading expeditions against the small hamlet nearby. The barbarian, who has waited to find the creature in charge, throws himself into a rage and charges in . He's met head on by the orge who lets out a howl that echos through the halls.
Unfortunately for the PCs, 33 is the kennel and there, before the all the rucus, lies the ogre's pet worg, which next round will enter the hallway and split the party. The noise also alerted 4 orc warriors who were happily playing a game of dice in room 31, after a hard day of pillaging. They too will join the combat next round hitting the party from behind.
It doesn't have a point or purpose, fully half (plus stairs down) is inaccesible if you miss a single secret door.
And there are just way too many random nooks that have no point
If you really want an absolutely huge encounter, however, go for 14-23. Possibly add in 12 & 13 (though that will bog down into a corridor fight).
@freniajj- I'm not sure about the rooms you've selected. Between ~100 feet of corridor, lots of corners and a door, those orcs will have a hard time making listen checks. I suppose, by the book, they only need a 9+ (+1 listen check, battle, 100', door and distracted), but I'd want to raise that DC for the corners. The worg, of course, will be right in there.
As far as dungeon design goes, I don't think it was meant to be a perfectly designed dungeon. He just wanted you to explore some conceptual situations where you could involve many locations in one combat.
Using area 3 leading into 25-27, where the PCs are on the trail of a very young black dragon, his harpy consort, her ogre protector, and a small group of 4 gnolls and 4 hyenas. Each creature (or grouping) is a CR 4 (if one assumes I glued a level of barbarian to the ogre).
There are two gnoll archers and two hyenas at the end of the long hallway from Area 3. There are two more hyenas and gnolls with the black dragon in Area 26 looking for something of importance to the dragon. The harpy and the ogre are up in Area 27 looking at something totally unrelated/collecting baubles.
The two gnoll archers and two hyenas sound the alarm when they see the light of the adventurers coming from Area 3. The other gnoll and hyena team await a buff from the black dragon, while the harpy tells the ogre to place her on an out of the way perch (Somewhere in Area 27). The gnolls bottleneck the player characaters down the hallway awaiting reinforcements. The black dragon hangs back a little to buff himself, continue his search, and carve out a hiding hole if need be (In Area 26). The ogre joins the fray when the PC emerge from the hallway. The harpy tries to use her song a little later to charm some PCs to take them out of the fight.
This plays into the themes discussed, the black dragon is the Leader role, the harpy the Controller, the ogre and hyenas the Defenders and the gnolls the Strikers.
The gnolls have darkvision, as well as the dragon and the ogre. The harpy is the only one required to have a light which is only a soft light that is 20 feet around her, as she rests on the ogre's shoulder at the beginning of the encounter and on her perch later on.
I'd love to see how that'd do versus a standard group of 5 level 4 adventurers to take on. According to an encounter calculator, an encounter like this would be very difficult until 9th level for 5 characters.
HEART OF THE MATTER
Designed for a few low level characters: A bakery has commissioned them to locate and return a fabled golden pie idol from the clutches of vile orcs (where have we heard of this dungeon plot before?)
"The battlefield"
Location 14 ~ Northern passage into the orc camp strewn with debris and rubbish. A side door leads to the orc guard barracks (provides an opportunity to outflank the party from the guard rooms in 19, 20 , 21) and beyond lies the main orc great room (location 16) where 6 orcs sit about a cooking fire intent on a meal.
*sneak / hide difficulty X to cross this room without drawing the attention of orcs in location 16
Location 22 ~ Western passage into the orc camp strewn with debris and rubbish. A side door leads to the orc guard barracks (provides an opportunity to outflank the party from the guard rooms in 19, 20 , 21) and beyond lies the main orc great room (location 16) where 6 orcs sit about a cooking fire intent on a meal.
*sneak / hide difficulty X to cross this room without drawing the attention of orcs in location 16
Location 16 ~ The orc great room features 6 hungry orcs sitting about a cooking fire. This is where the main fight will happen with other orcs from nearby rooms potentially joining in.
* Once engaged the orcs will raise and alarm requesting backup from the gaurd rooms
* Once engaged the orcs will position themselves to block party access to locations 15 and 17 while waiting for reinforcements to outflank the party.
"The reinforcements"
Location 19, 20, & 21 ~ These three interconnected rooms contain off duty orcs. Some asleep (orcs in rooms 19 & 21) , and others gambling to pass the time (orcs in room 20). Each room contains 4 off duty orcs.
* Once an alarm has been sounded they will spend X rounds gathering arms / armor and then peek out into location 14 & 22to see where the party is in order to flank them from behind.
* If the alarm was not sounded and the party was able to sneak into this area through the noisy debris in location 14 & 22 then the party can dispatch the sleeping orcs with ease rewarding stealth players / scouting
"Da Bossman"
Location 15 ~ A brutal orc fighter with don his gear in Y rounds of combat after the alarm has been sounded in location 16. After his minions have weakened the party he will step out to finish them off.
"Great and Glorious Pie-like Treasure"
Location 17 ~ The chamber of the sacred golden pie the party seeks. Warned by the alarm in location 16 the three spellcasting orcs in this room cease their praise and worship of the sacred pie and cast buffing spells. These orcs then ready actions to cast at any party member foolish enough to enter.
* If they hear the warcry of their leader from room 15 enter battle they will gather up enough courage to peek outside a round later to see if they can help.
Location 18 ~ The golden pie of legend sits upon a short stone block. Our course it is trapped ... maybe requiring a bag of sand of equal weight to be place on top of the block as the pie is removed to disarm ... :P
==================
I am not entirely convinced that you can up the number of monsters to each player to make the game more dynamic without trivializing each monster the way several of the recent generation of online MMORPGs have (City of Heros, Lord of the Rings, etc). And that leads to a few teacher questions ...
1) We need more room to play around in ... At some point should we scratch our heads as dungeons start to have massive corridors and rooms that dwarf modern day mansions? I did a tour of castles across Europe a few years back and I can tell you the scale of building was certainly smaller and more cramped not more spacious. Should the scale of X feet per square be revisited or do we just roll with massive 100 by 100 foot caverns and passageways carved by hand that could double as major freeways?
2) Players act as a team, thus they can "focus fire" to borrow a computer term and burn bosses down. If a "boss fight" is balanced by having a horde of minions what is to stop the archer and arcane nuker from simply 2 shotting the leaders in the back from range bypassing the minions? In 3.X boss fights at party CR+4 we guaranteed them to have enough beefcake to take a full party worth of damage for several rounds. As such the encounters were balanced so they were alone. The more minions then weaker and easier to kill the bosses as balance thus leading to less memorable fights? (note: I tried to solve this by not revealing the boss until the minions were dealt with using the common MMO solution)
3) Part of the beauty of the 3.X "party versus small number of opponents design" was that the GM was not as fast as their silicon counterparts that have turned towards these horde style fights. A GM moving 15 goblins about and rolling attacks and such eats up a lot of playtime compared to a fight where say 2 or 3 advanced goblins (i.e bugbears for instance) provide the same challenge in a faster to run encounter. Do we have improved GM mass combat mechanics?
20 -- Relic
Double doors for viewing opportunities, and a back door, just in case
21 -- BBEG
Aspect of Wee Jas (because I like magic and death)
16 -- Undead mooks milling about. Zombies and skeletons, one Bone Knight for a surprise challenge (Perception to see that dude).
22 -- Mob of zealots waiting to be seen by the Aspect. These guys can run around and cause confusion (playing the innocent bystanders) or they can actively fight the party
14 -- Heavy guards, demons or fighter types. They have good line-of sight (when they come into play) for charges and ranged attack. Traps for the unwary, also here.
19 or 23 -- Doomsday Monster. When it all goes bad, the BBEG will escape out the back past the multi-tentacled super-squid creature with one firey red eye ray.
The party has their choice to enter from 17 (not much of one really). They have the option to deal with the undead quietly or with extreme prejudice. If alerted, the Heavy Guards engage with as much Power Attack as possible. Depending on the sway of battle, the Zealots can merely hinder or actively oppose.
If the party moves to 14, they have to contend with the Heavy Guards and loose stone traps (stumble damage). The Heavy Guards know where the charging lines are and actively try to push the PCs into the traps.
The BBEG can make an appearance when she sees fit (actually, its the DM, but who's looking behind the curtain?). Showing Wee Jas inspecting the fight and ducking back may get the party to press on, but it also clues them into the fact that she's going to be ready for them as well. She may be more than ready if they take too long outside.
Doomsday should make an appearance if the party needs just that extra challenge or a few more XP before moving on to greater parts of the dungeon. If Doomsday is not needed, he can show up much later in the dungeon, and the players don't have to know about him at all until then.
If the players fight the Aspect in 21, they are on her Home Turf. She has prepared and some magical surprises such as wards and or conjured minions -- personally, I like animated furniture (good disguise, DR and paranoia for later).
I am approaching this encounter with the maximum amount of flexibility. I want to be able to bring monsters on- and off-stage according to the players' choices. Spread out, you get more monsters. Hold back, you get a little breather, but you know what is coming up.
Thanks Mr. Mearls for the insight into making the DM's preparations easier by learning how we think.
Part of the beauty of the 3.X "party versus small number of opponents design" was that the GM was not as fast as their silicon counterparts that have turned towards these horde style fights. A GM moving 15 goblins about and rolling attacks and such eats up a lot of playtime compared to a fight where say 2 or 3 advanced goblins (i.e bugbears for instance) provide the same challenge in a faster to run encounter. Do we have improved GM mass combat mechanics?
First off, nice build up. Who doesn't need a golden cake?
Ha, we used the same area!
Personally, I like the shift toward more minions. They pretty much do the same thing in their own grouping. 4 kolbold fighters, 4 kobold sorcers, 2 kobold shamans, and 4 kobold rogues (hidden in the shadows) is a much better encounter than the 4 orcs. And, you are really only running 4 distinct creatures (with the kobold scenario). There may be more rolling, but their choices are copies of each other. Again, emphasizing that it is esier to think in clusters of things rather than each individual thing.
Ok, well... In Mike Mearls' most recent article, he gace us an insight into dungeon design in 4th edition as well as a homework assignment*. Unfortunately, he suggested we post our homework in the 4th edition forums - which are locked - so I thought I would make a response here at the Gleemax boards.
*Incidentally, I referred to Mike's instructions as suggestions and included more than 3 or 4 monsters. When designing encounters, I tend to have a very macro approach, meaning I look at the entire setting and what would be included in this setting. Why are these monsters here, what is there purpose, how do they do what they do? Although this might not be reflected in this hastily designed encounter. Still, as a result, my encounters tend to be interconnected, and I find myself having to make sure I don't overwhelm my players.
The encounters then are the micro-level details where I can focus more on immediate player interaction. However, I've noticed that when I design encounters thinking of each encounter as a piece of an overall whole -- and not just an encounter, my players tend to play better. They begin to consider consequences to their actions which results in a heightened level of play for my players (which means more fun for them)
I may also post this response on the WOTC forums as an attempt to draw some attention to the fact that Mike is trying to create some interaction with the customer and the boards are stopping this from happening.
Of course, he could be referencing something entirely different, and I just don't have the where-with-all to know what he's talking about.
Be that as it may, I read the article early this morning, and during my lunch break I took the opportunity to throw an encounter together. The following is my attempt at the homework assignment. It's nice that well-developed, but I had 30 mins to eat and design an encounter - usually, it takes me much more time than that. There are certain details that are left out, and some details that are included that probably don't need to be - either way, it is what it is.
The Shrine of Kehftef-zul An encounter for 4-6 7th level PCs.
Background
These oddly-shaped corridors (areas 28,29, and 30 on the map mentioned in the article) are part of a much larger complex which serves as the home of “Ancuiril the Discomfitted.” Once a proud and noble Elven mage, Ancuiril dabbled too deeply into the esoteric mysteries of the arcane and inadvertently stumbled upon a being of great power and might. The resulting conflict led to Ancuiril’s descent into madness and the rousing of the beast from its malevolent malaise. Now, as the demon’s thrall, Ancuiril must guard the palace of this dark creature from any would-be invaders.
Opponents
(4) Evil Human Clerics, lvl 4
(1) HD Advanced Gargoyle (CR 4)
(1) Human Wizard (Necromancer), lvl 9
(6) Goblin Rogues, lvl 3
Area 28 – The Shrine of Kehftef-zul
As you move down the dimly lit corridor, you notice three alcoves to the left and right of the passage. Also, a soft golden glow emanates from a room at the end of the hall. Straining to see through the darkness, you can see the barely perceptible outline of small golden figures, ornate boxes, and other seemingly valuable items neatly organized on a stone altar situated in the center of the room.
The treasure and shrine is actually an illusion cast by Ancuiril (DC 19) if interacted with. The true shrine is located in area 29 and is only accessible via the secret door or from Ancuiril’s room. The secret door can be detected with a Search (DC 22) and opened with a Disable Device check (DC 22).
Alcove I
In this 10’ alcove you notice a wooden stand with a towel to the left and a stone basin jutting out from the wall directly in front of you. Above the basin is a small, everburning candle and a polished mirror framed in a hellish golden frame comprised of grotesque faces and wincing demons.
If the PCs approach the mirror, read the following:
As you approach, a face forms on the surface of the mirror. It speaks in a loud, clear voice in a strange, ugly tongue.
The magic mouth is speaking in Abyssal and instructs the PCs to speak the following incantation: “Cleanse our eyes that we may see, prepare our hands that we may act.” – repeated three times. After the PCs speak the incantation, the basin fills with water and the PCs must wash their hands and face if they want to enter the shrine. If they do not complete this ritual, they will be subject to attack from the statue (A gargoyle) near Area 28.
Alcove II
This 10x20’ area is ornately decorated and includes rich area rugs, plush seats, privacy screens, and several large chests. The area is shadowy and dark as the only illumination comes from several small, everburning candles mounted on the walls.
The chests contain the trappings of the priests who, through the evangelical work of Ancuiril, have come to worship Kehf-tef-zul. Those who wish to enter the shrine must first perform the appropriate ablations (alcove I), and then dress in the appropriate clothing – heavy vermillion robes found in the chests.
A successful Search check (DC 22) reveals a prayer-book (written in Abyssal). The book contains clues about the ceremony. If the PCs can interpret the language, a successful Decipher Script check will reveal the appropriate clothing for entering the shrine. (DC 22)
Alcove III
This 10x10’ alcove contains a large, stone statue of a grimacing devil-like humanoid.
The statue is (of course) a gargoyle and will activate if the PCs try to pass the alcove without performing the ablations or wearing the appropriate attire. The PCs will most likely run into the “shrine” – from there the gargoyle will block the doorway until reinforcements arrive.
Area 29
A 30’ hallway stretches out before you which ends with a 90-degree turn to the left.
Read after the PCs have walked down the hall:
This oddly-shaped area is divided into two distinct areas. The first area is completely constructed from a shiny black substance – something akin to obsidian – which sheds a tangible evil menace* that shakes you to the core. This room is a simple, open-chamber with not furnishing whatsoever. However, on the floor is engraved a huge, series of glyphs (Spellcraft check will reveal the desecrate spell). The second chamber is easily visible behind the first area and is another richly decorated shrine to some evil deity; much like the room you experienced before.
*Desecrate
If the PCs have successfully entered this room undetected, they see a group of clerics dressed in red robes performing the first part of some terrible, evil ritual.
If the PCs have alerted the clerics, (such as battling with the gargoyle) the clerics have prepared their spells and are waiting for the PCs in various parts of the first chamber, corridor, and staircase. The Clerics will either open the secret door to check on the PCs’ progress with the gargoyle, or they will use divination spells they have prepared – either way, if the PCs struggle with the gargoyle, the clerics will wait-it-out. However, if the PCs are not having a difficult time, the clerics will go to Ancuiril’s chamber. Ancuiril will call for the goblin reinforcements to come down the hall towards the shrine (past alcoves I,II, and III). The clerics will cast invisibility and enter combat when the goblins arrive.
In the meantime, Ancuiril will begin preparing himself for combat in the event that the clerics, gargoyle, and goblins all fail. The final stand will take place in the L-shaped hallway where Ancuiril will use quickened spells and teleport to confuse the PCs. After his initial assault, he will retreat to the shrine where he gains a +1 to his caster levels with spells with the evil description, and the PCs are under the effects of Bane.
Once in the shrine, he will cast Summon Monster VI for reinforcements.
Area 30
The staircase leads to the personal chambers of “Ancuiril the Discomfitted” – now a crazed wizard who fanatically regards the Demon Kehf-tef-zul as a deity, making Ancuiril a prophet (of sorts).
The stone stairs lead down to an iron door.
Ancuiril has Alarm cast on the area behind the secret door which will alert him to the presence of any unauthorized intruders. The door is locked (Disable Device DC 22) and trapped with a CR9 Poison Needle trap.
For the purposes of this “homework” assignment, this room isn’t described.
On entering the area moving east from 24 the characters cross a line of runes drawn on the floor. These runes present an insurmountable barrier to the undead in this encounter area.
Area 39 to the right contains stairs descending to a lower level of the dungeon, but these stairs are blocked by a magically sealed doorway. Only by retrieving the oddly shape key from room 38 will this path be opened to the party.
Room 35 is home to a wight who will become aware of the PCs if they enter any of the hallways immediately surrounding this room. The room is very tidy.
Rooms 36 and 37 are filled with sqalor, filth and scraps of rotting flesh, but no bones. Eight small ghoul-like creatures inhabit these rooms, and may use the small secret doors to move between them. When attacked three of their number will flee both to alert the wight, and to use the mechanisms in the small chambers on the north end of this area to open the secret door to chamber 38.
Room 38 is home to a deep circular pit filled with cracked chewed and gnawed bones. These bones have been animated by the negative energy of the pit, creating a swarm of tiny animated bones that are attracted by the positive energy of living beings. If a living creature approaches the doorway to this room before it has been opened a perception check will allow them to hear the swarm of bones stirring within. Only if the thick stone door is broken, or the mechanisms are used to open it will the swarm be released. Once released however, it constantly moves toward the nearest living creature in the area. The floor of the pit is covered with a very shallow layer of thick vile sludge which appears to drain through eight holes in the pits wall scarcely an inch above the floor. One of those holes is actually just a niche that contains the key for area 39.
A pair of bugbear guards man the guard post in area 11, watching over the prison cells lining the hall of area 10. As the PCs approach, one of the Bugbears will spend his first action in combat to pull a lever that opens the cells...revealing not prisoners but zombies. The lever also sets off an alarm heard by the hobgoblins playing dice in areas 12 and 13, and the hobgoblin werewolf that lairs in area 7.
Each of the cells in area 10 contains 1 zombie. If the PCs are already in the hallway when the bugbear guard opens the cells, the PCs may find themselves divided as the zombies come out. Retreating back to the "T" intersection is little help as the hobgoblins and the werewolf will likely cut off any escape route. The party will fare better if they have a cleric who can turn the zombies.
First off, nice build up. Who doesn't need a golden cake?
Ha, we used the same area!
Personally, I like the shift toward more minions. They pretty much do the same thing in their own grouping. 4 kolbold fighters, 4 kobold sorcers, 2 kobold shamans, and 4 kobold rogues (hidden in the shadows) is a much better encounter than the 4 orcs. And, you are really only running 4 distinct creatures (with the kobold scenario). There may be more rolling, but their choices are copies of each other. Again, emphasizing that it is esier to think in clusters of things rather than each individual thing.
More minions = more fun for players (fireballs against single opponents is boring and cleave past 3rd or 4th level became somewhat pointless). It can even be more fun for GMs in a storytelling aspect and it allows for more combat scene options.
But is it EASIER to run?
I have a deep seated fear that the play clock may look like;
00:00 ~ Round 1 starts
00:15 ~ Fighter play declares who he wants to whack and how hard and rolls the dice
00:30 ~ Rogue player tumbles about and stabs stuff
00:45 ~ Wizard player points at something and makes it a smoking ruin
01:00 ~ Cleric player mocks a few undead
10:00 ~ GM finished moving each of the undead minions and other opponents, resolved immediate actions and AoPs, rolled dice, added story / combat flavor, paused to double check a monster special ability and then declares round 2!
Right now even with BASIC stuff we have run a 1,000 times before sending out 30 CR 1/2 evil generic vanilla flavor humanoids agaisnt a party of 4th level players would be a huge pain to run even though its balanced in 3rd edition.
And at the end of the day I am not sure that players wouldn't just retreat to the nearest bottleneck of a door or tight passage and whack em down one at a time. Sure a big battle scene COULD be cinematic but why would players want to put themselves at risk that way? If we dumb down monsters and weaken them to be able to put more on the field we still have not taken away players desiring to min/max on the fight by taking them on one at a time.
And at the end of the day I am not sure that players wouldn't just retreat to the nearest bottleneck of a door or tight passage and whack em down one at a time.
I agree with you there, but I think the key part for the DM is to have down sides to this; perhaps the monsters know a way around and then the PCs have a lot less maneuver ability. Without seeing 4e; from reading a lot of the posts it sounds like the PCs might have abilities which would cause them to want to be in the middle of the fray.
This the entry point where players come in having found a subterranian river.
B The river widens in to small pool of roughly 20ft in diameter.
A In dim illumination of your lanterns you spot a pole where to tie your boat, the pole is made of rought stone and has iron rings attached to it.
There is a door at the eastern wall, you see light shining through cracks from other side of the door.
1. In this room there are 3 goblins in places c, a and b.
c is standing face away from the door allowing peeking carefully from behind the door a and b are not to be seen unless the door is opened in full.
Goblins are in a quiet conversation about prisoners that were brought in today.
Fourth goblin in room 3 joins the fight if it hears the combat or alarm raised by any of the 3 goblins.
As a side note, this is how I've run most of my games, multiple enemies against multiple PC's, it will be interesting to see how 4E handles "larger" battles.
This is a long abandoned shrine to Orcus deep beneath the earth. The entire place is dark, and damp, with trickles of water seeping down the walls and forming small cold pools all about the floor. Everywhere various molds, fungus, and slimes cling to the stones (some are even luminous), giving the place the look of a sickly garden of decay. The encounter the PCs are about to have involves a small corner of this rotting locale that is home to a Medusa and several of her underdark pets.
- 36 - The door to this room is swollen shut (but is very decayed and mold ridden) and requires a DC 16 Strength check to force open. As well in it's decayed condition it only has a Hardness of 3, and 10 hp. The room itself is damper then many others and the ground has a thick layer of muck and goo that sticks to feet as they tread through it. All throughout this muck are huge varieties of mushrooms and fungus. The Secret Door in the SW corner is badly damaged from fungal growth and hangs open, sagging like waterlogged cardboard. Hidden amongst the growth here are 2 Shriekers and 2 Violet Fungi. Perceptive Characters will see them with a Spot check of DC 20. A successful Spot gives the Characters a free round to react before combat begins. Once the Shriekers begin shrieking (any warm blooded creature sets them off). they will alert the occupants of 37, 38, 38a, and the surrounding area. As well as causing the Violet Fungi to attack.
- 37 - The door to this room is swollen shut (but is very decayed and mold ridden) and requires a DC 16 Strength check to force open. As well in it's decayed condition it only has a Hardness of 3, and 10 hp. This room is very humid and acts as a nest for 3 Carrion Crawlers. They will attack any who enter this room. As well they have burrowed holes through the Secret Door on the East wall and will respond to attack any creatures that enter 36 and trigger the Shriekers after 2 rounds of combat have passed. As well they will move to attack creatures that engage the Otyugh (at 38a), 3 rounds after combat begins.
- 38 - This is the lair of the Medusa herself, this is here nest and where she keeps her most precious treasures. The Secret Door to this chamber is hard to detect (DC 25 to find), and if she is expecting an attack she will set the poison needle trap she has on the door. This trap is automatic (detectable with a DC 18 Search), and cannot be disabled it will trigger if any open the door or if they attempt to Disable the trap (due to this she must set the trap in times of need only, so as not to constantly prick herself when she wishes to pass through it). The poison is the same as that of the Medusa's snakes (see Monster for Poison description) If she hears the Shriekers from 36 she will prepare her pet at 38a to waylay any who come from the north or from the hallway leading to 37. Once it engages any who come toward her nest she will slip out and lend aid with her bow and petrifying gaze. If it appears the Characters will survive this onslaught she will sneak back to her lair and prepare from further combat by using her treasures to heal herself (if needed) and to prepare a few surprises for those that would dare enter this room. She has at least 3 temporary magic items (scroll, potions, etc.) at her disposal as well as at least 2 permanent ones (armor, weapons, wonderous items, etc.)
- 38a - A huge pile of refuse and dung fills the end of this hallway, the Medusa's pet Otyugh makes his home here. If the Shriekers alert the Medusa then both will be waiting for the PCs as the head south toward this hallway. If not the Otyugh will only attack PCs if they explore this hallway. Although if the PCs engage the Medusa in combat it will arrive 2 rounds after the combat starts to help protect it's "master".
Now I have a general question; from what I read in the article, from what I've seen posted here, and from what I have just done, I'm wondering what is so different from what I've always done since the first days of me playing Chainmail. I mean how does having intelligent, interactive encounter areas make them 4e? By no means is this something "new & improved" from previous editions. Any decent DM would do this with any Dungeon they played (regardless of system or D&D edition). Maybe I missed the point but it seems as though the article made it sound like this kind of thinking was something 4e "brings to the table". I hope that for everyone's sake that is not the case.
Once more maybe I missed something, but I fear I did not.
Designer Mike Mearls posted a "homework assignment" in this D&Di article. You may discuss it here.ShowHomework Assignment
4th Edition is still a ways off, but it’s never too early to start thinking of the dungeons you’re going to design. Here’s a little homework assignment for all of you: Pick two or three closely linked encounter areas on the sample dungeon map. While you obviously don’t have access to the new rules, you can still come up with ideas for encounters. Assuming that you can use four or five monsters, pick two or three encounter areas on the map and turn them into a single fight. Post your ideas in the 4th Edition forums and see what other gamers come up with.
Without seeing the rules, the article seemed to be pointing out that in 3.5 the encounter he described would have ended in a TPK, but with the revised rules even at 1st level you can make encounters like that and have the party be up for the challenge. Just don't ask me to back up that statement
That's what I think he was saying as well - or at least something along those lines. How many times have we had to alter an encounter because we wanted to throw a handful of goblins at some PCs, but in order to make the encounter challenging, we had to change something... I mean, dramatically change stuff, all the time, and following weird rules (like CR/HD/Feat selection for monsters, etc...)
What I'm hoping that Mike is hinting at is that in 4e, these type of encounters will be less clunky, more intuitive, easier to set-up/run, and more fun.
How many times have we had to alter an encounter because we wanted to throw a handful of goblins at some PCs, but in order to make the encounter challenging, we had to change something... I mean, dramatically change stuff, all the time, and following weird rules (like CR/HD/Feat selection for monsters, etc...)
I hear that, I find in 3.5 it's a very fine line between challenging and overpowered, you either have encounters that the PCs yawn through; or encounters that they can't handle. So you end up making one of the 2 and then either beef them up as you play them or knock them down some to make the encounter enjoyable and livable for the PCs.
I have a deep seated fear that the play clock may look like;
00:00 ~ Round 1 starts
00:15 ~ Fighter play declares who he wants to whack and how hard and rolls the dice
00:30 ~ Rogue player tumbles about and stabs stuff
00:45 ~ Wizard player points at something and makes it a smoking ruin
01:00 ~ Cleric player mocks a few undead
10:00 ~ GM finished moving each of the undead minions and other opponents, resolved immediate actions and AoPs, rolled dice, added story / combat flavor, paused to double check a monster special ability and then declares round 2!
I hear your argument. All these monsters will eat up play time. Allow me to make an analogy to soccer. In youth soccer, we talk about "touches" on the ball in practice. The more time you touch the ball, the better the game (passing, tackling, throw-ins, wall pass...)
Let us consider "The Action" is the ball. The ball touches a PC anytime they do something or something is done to them.
In the case of the above quoted example, let us assume that it does, indeed, take 10 minutes to resolve 12 minion turns. Here is a partial example of play going forward (M = minion; P = PC):
M1- charges at group. P1- "I take and AoO; hit". M1- completes charges, attacks P2.
M2- attacks P1, moves. P1- "I take another AoO (yeah feat!)"
M3- Bull Rushes P3. P3- successfully defends.
M4- casts AoE (in 4e rolls spell attack??). P1, P2, P3 check save.
M5- casts spell on P4. P4 checks save, "oh, no, I take Wis damage
"M6- ranged attack volley (4e??). P3, P4 check save, "agh, more damage!"
....
Every time a Player (P) is mentioned above, they get a touch on the ball -- they get a piece of "The Action". Yes, the turn where the minions act may be long and drawn out, but the Players are not in the other room watching Star Trek reruns waiting for the DM to call them back.
Also, with minions, the chance of success is lower per hit, but there are more chances (more touches). The players rejoice in many successful defences, and they lament the one hit. This maintains a higher level of tension. Effectively, the DM turns the tables on the party, they are the ones getting "Ganked", but at a level where it is fun, and the PCs have a chance to survive.
In the above, if M1 thru M6 landed lucky blows, the DM can "play dumb" with the M7-M12 so the PCs can take another turn. The DM does not have that option when the BBEG succeeds at an "instant kill" (of which, charm, dominate, sleep... and proceeds to overpower the other 3. If a minion happens to succeed on an instant kill, the DM has the option to take 1 or more of the minions out of the battle as they deal with the captive -- "drage the unconscious hero away, you four minions."
If 4ed can make that happen without a need to fudge the dice then I'm happy indeed.
Without seeing the rules, the article seemed to be pointing out that in 3.5 the encounter he described would have ended in a TPK, but with the revised rules even at 1st level you can make encounters like that and have the party be up for the challenge. Just don't ask me to back up that statement
I thought he meant it would move faster for the DM. Multiple Enemies usually takes more time to run than your typical single monster encounter. Especially when multiple NPC's join a battle.
"How is this different from older modules that used the same sort of concept?"
I'm thinking of the old Giants' series, or the Slaver series, adventures where small notes dictated the responses of nearby monsters based on the party's intrusion. I don't think I ever *lost* that design aspect, and my players have suffered for it. A dungeon is usually someone else's home, fortress, community. Of course the monsters should be interacting in areas, responding to alarms, reinforcing points and rallying other defenders... am I missing something here, or are most people not designing with that in mind?
Hell, set the wayback machine for the not-so-long-ago Sunless Citadel. That place was rife with exactly this sort of thing. Sure, there were a few points of lone monsters-- the mephit, the troll-in-the-box-- but most of the structure's first level was the two fortified positions of the goblins and kobolds. Why would these monsters not be responding to intruders? A party should have almost *never* been facing the leader of either tribe in the designated area for that foe.
Regardless, I'll participate... this is intended to be a series of encounters for 4 4th level characters. Our usual suspects will be: A gargoyle, a flight of 9 stirges, and a personal favorite, a ghast, a ghoul, and a bugbear zombie infested with brown mold, for an EL 4, 4, and a 6...
We'll work with the entrance, because showing up should never be free. Areas 1, 2, 3. If I recall my 1E DMG correctly, this was supposed to be the basement of a monastery. (Oh, that poor gnome...) We'll keep with that, and call it a forgotten, sealed off portion recently opened by an earthquake. A number of acolytes decided to foolishly go investigate the catacombs, believing that the tunnels beneath a temple could never be infested...
Area#1. The long staircase down leads into the room. It is modestly decorated with old frescoes of monks doing harvesting, brewing, praying. There are a couple of toppled pieces of statuary in the corners of saints, cheribum, other related servants. The statue in the lower right corner still stands.
The points "A" and "B" are the bloodsoaked bodies of two of the acolytes, with another set of bloody drag marks going down the passage towards #3. Survival(Track) checks will indicate the group went off to the right, towards #2, then a smaller number ran back to this room. At least one, maybe two were dragged off down the passage to #3 by a few barefooted creatures.
Our monster is the gargoyle, sitting calm and "frozen" near to the door to Area#2 at position "C," like a large doorstop. He prefers to wait out most intruders, attacking when he can best surprise them. He will often go perch on one of the statuary pedestals, hiding as one of them. In this case, he'd been sitting near the door when the acolytes arrived, and has been waiting for everything to die down since. He would love to prowl further about the dungeon, but he knows the undead in Area#3 prevent him from accessing that secret door.
Should he be spotted and combat begin here, he'll howl and fly into Area#2, diving into the water. This will rile up the stirges, and any character that gives chase will run right into them. His howl will also alert the undead in Area#3 that new meals have arrived, and they will come investigate. The ghoul and ghast stick with the zombie, knowing about its 'rider' and the cold effect. They'll want to use it to best advantage. It will take them three rounds to arrive in Area#1.
***
Area#2 This rough, cavernous area is dark and musty, with the sounds of falling water. The air is damp, and the floor grimy. It looks like this might have been used as a lager or cistern at one point with some smashed barrels near the entrance. Tracks lead off to the left, and investigation will show two bodies at "A" and "B," with "A" laying down, arm in the water, and "B" sitting up against the wall. Both are covered in large, bloody splotches that mar their robes.
The Stirges hide in the ceiling of this room, awaiting their next meal. Usually they would flutter out at night through the waterfall entrance at the south end of the room-- a small two foot tunnel that really only a gnome might otherwise squeeze through-- but lately, large blood filled treats keep showing up. They attack when anyone investigates the bodies, aiming for less armored targets, and splitting into a group of 4 and 5. They will chase meals into Area#1 or Area#3.
Once the stirges attack, the gargoyle will howl, drawing the attention of the undead in Area#3-- after all, it was the screams of the acolytes that drew them in last time. They will be in Area#1 in 3 rounds and Area#2 in 4 rounds. The gargoyle knows this, and will join the fight for three rounds before diving into the pool of water.
Here he'll watch, flying out as the undead are slain to attack the now hopefully quite nonlethally damaged party, or retreating out later as the undead drag their newfound meals.
Even slain, the zombie's brown mold should continue to cause parties problems-- radiating cold nonlethal damage that creates bottlenecks and forces the party to really worry about things like using area of effect spells on the stirges that swarm over the party, assuming the spellcasters aren't the ones first drained by the stirges. The overall Constitution damage combined with the nonlethal damage, combined with the solid tankishness of the gargoyle (who should be able to ignore most of the mold's damage), and darkvision all around should make this a pretty razor's-edge sort of encounter area.
***
Area#3 This was once a work area for the monastery, there are remnants of tables, urns, other various tools all for the purposes of brewing beer, but they've been smashed to trash and rubble. The current occupants of this room are two gaunt, ancient ghouled priests and the bugbear zombie infected with brown mold. They linger near the passage to Area#1, just to the left of the archway, currently consuming the remains of one of the priests mostly drained by stirges. If they notice the approaching party, they'll hide and attempt to attack from ambush. The bugbear will hide near the entrance, and the mold will affect any approaching down the hallway.
The secret door is located 15 feet up the wall. A series of square holes in the wall have bits of rotten wood in them, and the floor is littered with the crumbling remnants of a staircase. It is an easy task to climb up to the door. The gargoyle would desperately love to go explore this passage, but the undead here have deterred him thus far.
-Ben.
True. Though this particular dungeon has a lot of issues stemming from bad design.
It doesn't have a point or purpose, fully half (plus stairs down) is inaccesible if you miss a single secret door.
And there are just way too many random nooks that have no point
?
I can assign very valid usages for the place if you'd like. As I recall, it's supposed to be the basement of a monastery, but I can see a configuration as a fortress dungeon, or the remnant catacombs beneath an urban environment. I guess taken out of context, it might just seem like a random pile of rooms, but I see storage, craftsman shops, meditation cells, personal chambers, practice areas, perhaps even an area for a sort of Rite of Passage, as the monks are sent to face the dangers beyond the secret door and recover some item within while either defeating the guardian or avoiding it. Maybe it was a Minotaur-Icarus style prisoner execution method. *shrug* An easy option is large number of tombs and charnel rooms-- I like my bones stacked in interesting patterns, thanks.
On a side note, and unrelated to daemonwald's comment, looking at this design article, it has me believing that 4E won't have a critical hit system-- if only because designing for larger combat groups means more opportunities for those criticals and a bigger chance for the random death. A fate point type system could be used to balance that increased possibility...I guess we'll see, but it does leave me wondering.
?
On a side note, and unrelated to daemonwald's comment, looking at this design article, it has me believing that 4E won't have a critical hit system-- if only because designing for larger combat groups means more opportunities for those criticals and a bigger chance for the random death. A fate point type system could be used to balance that increased possibility...I guess we'll see, but it does leave me wondering.
Well... you may be right, but on the other hand, all of the designers/developers have been saying that, no matter what - this is D&D; it will look & feel like D&D>
That said, it just wouldn't feel very D&Dish without critical hits.
Cheers
Reviewing the monster article as well... *sigh* The whole thing feels like an exercise in frustration-- our design here, our discussion. We're talking about a system we have no basis of experience with, and can only make what seem like flawed comparisons to a system that will be cast aside. (AC 49? That means as much to me now as if you'd told me you had AC 23 in 1/2E) The dungeon discussion is interesting, since it really is also applicable to current design, but the shift in mechanics allows no frame of reference. He may as well tell me about acquiring warping points and avoiding twilight.
Regardless, I'll participate... this is intended to be a series of encounters for 4 4th level characters. Our usual suspects will be: A gargoyle, a flight of 9 stirges, and a personal favorite, a ghast, a ghoul, and a bugbear zombie infested with brown mold, for an EL 4, 4, and a 6...
I really like your approach to designing the encounter. You have combined monsters that have synergies as well as detailing the dungeon in a way so that the monsters have more options against the party.
By outlining the monster reactions from their home positions, you give the DM the options of adding the monsters to the fight with the part with a purpose. You give enough detail of how the monsters interact and of their special abilities that the DM understands the encounter -- one could say "lives the encounter" -- so that the DM can adjust the componenet to their vision of the action.
I say this because the Design Notes from Mearls and Noonan (you need to go back through Design & Development to read into their "we wish we could change" comments) suggest that they are trying to re-train the DM's to envision the situation and create rules to support that type of process.
As you can see already in MMV, the stat blocks describe what monsters can do. Specifically, there are monsters that obviously were designed with class levels, but they are not presented that way. Abilities that are irrelevant in a 5-10 round interaction are discarded, abilities that would normally show up in a higher HD creature, but make sense from a monster stand-point, are included.
Looking at a later post or yours, roir1k, it is difficult to design specific dungeons without a thorough understanding of 4e rules. But, it is significant that we provide clues on how "the users" design encounters. I would be able to take your idea and apply it in my dungeon -- thanking you for the time and creativity you spent on the adventure.
Could you not "stat out" a trap as a monster with 0 speed (or specific speed like 10 straight line from square A to B) and special attack abilities?
for example
Long Spear Stabber
Medium Trap
Init +10; Senses darvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
--------------------------------------------
AC 22, touch 17, flat 15 (+5 Dex, +5 natural, +2 dodge)
hp25 (5 HD); DR 5/sonic
For +6, Ref +6, Will immune
Weakness Sleight of Hand / Disable Device DC 20; disabled
--------------------------------------------
Speed none
Melee Mstwk long spear +13 (1d8+5)
Melee Mstwk long spear +8 (1d8+10) with Power Attack
Space 5 ft.Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +10; Grp none
Atk Options Power Attack, Trap Attack
--------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 20, Dex 20, Con --, Int --, Wis -- Cha --
Feats Power Attack
Skills Initiative +10, Perception +10
--------------------------------------------
Trap traits:
Skills:Traps are always trained in Initiative and Perception. They gain a +5 bonus to Initiative and Perception.
Objects: Traps are objects, and as such are immune to (all the things that constructs are immune to and then some).
Trap Attack: Traps can only make Attacks of Opportunity, but they have no limit to the number of attacks of opportunity they can make in a round. Traps gain a +2 competence bonus when making attacks of opportunity (already in stat above).
This is an encounter for the rooms 32 and 33 in the lower left hand corner of the map. Skarr is a large kobold who had a run in with a Were-Crocodile one day a few years back. Though he lost his right hand, he was afflicted and thereafter became a were-crocodile himself. His right hand is long gone, but he has replaced it with a battle-axe in the form of a cleaver attached to the stump of his wrist. He came to this dungeon to try to gather a band together and become a powerful kobold warboss. Being that he is much more powerful, more brutal, and far less fearful than the average kobold, he has been doing well so far and gathered together a small band of three (or more) other kobolds already. Giving one or more of the kobolds a reach style weapon such as a longspear would also make sense. Depending on how CR and EnL work, the kobolds may need a couple of levels of warrior between them to even things out.
The basic set-up would place Skarr in room 33 with his minions in room 32. This lets the gang act as a forward guard. Being kobolds, they have fortified this corner of the dungeon with a couple of simple traps to confuse and mislead there enemies as well as warn them of any approaching creatures. At the T-intersection that heads either towards rooms 32 and 33 or the dead end passageway to the east, the kobolds have placed a large red-painted arrow on the ground pointing down the east corridor. This is purely to confuse trespassers and point them in the wrong direction. A simple tripwire in the west side of the corridor is attached to some small bits of meddle to make noise. More traps could of course be added, but at this point, the encounter is designed for a low-level party who might not be able to deal with such a situation well.
Depending on how strictly the rules are being followed (and exactly how they work in 4e), that is, whether for flavor or by the letter and law, there are two ways to make this encounter more complex and interesting. Either or both could be used.
The first would be to place a pair of breeding shocker lizards at the end of the eastern corridor. While they are magical beasts and therefore could not be influenced by the animal empathy of the lycanthrope Skarr by a standard reading of the rules, it is not too far-fetched to let Skarr at least convince the lizards that the kobolds are not food and to stay away from them. The kobolds would then use the shocker lizards as a sort of natural trap and detection system for intruders though they would not technically be allies in any sense.
The second variation would have Skarr train some simple cave lizards as ‘watch-dogs.’ These lizards are trained to stay in the corridors that approach the hideout and only come back when larger creatures (size medium or larger) approach. These scurrying lizards would avoid combat at all costs and serve simply as an early warning system for the small group of kobolds who live in the corridor.
Speaking of encounter design, are traps just another form of monster?
Could you not "stat out" a trap as a monster with 0 speed (or specific speed like 10 straight line from square A to B) and special attack abilities?
In 3.5, I'd say... "it depends."
With the new 'encounter' traps, that have an initiative and focal point that can be destroyed or disarmed, then, sure... it makes sense to treat them as a monster.
if we're talking the standard trap with a trigger, capable of being disarmed, then I tend to think of them as an environmental modifier to the EL, incorporating them into the overall calculation, but there's some definite black art of EL/CR calculation being applied there.
If we're talking about a spell turret, then I have to take you out back behind the woodshed and try to talk some axehandle sense into you. ;) If you then provided me with good story justification and well thought out reason why only a spell turret would suffice in the situation... well, then I'd treat it like a very, very, very well equipped monster easily outwitted by a stone shape spell or a large sack.
The basic set-up would place Skarr in room 33 with his minions in room 32. This lets the gang act as a forward guard. Being kobolds, they have fortified this corner of the dungeon with a couple of simple traps to confuse and mislead there enemies as well as warn them of any approaching creatures. At the T-intersection that heads either towards rooms 32 and 33 or the dead end passageway to the east, the kobolds have placed a large red-painted arrow on the ground pointing down the east corridor. This is purely to confuse trespassers and point them in the wrong direction. A simple tripwire in the west side of the corridor is attached to some small bits of meddle to make noise. More traps could of course be added, but at this point, the encounter is designed for a low-level party who might not be able to deal with such a situation well.
How does this fulfill the idea of multiple paths for monsters to engage the party? This seems like a bottlenecked location that doesn't really permit for much other than a knock-down, drag-out in the corridor intersection. There's pretty much one direction the bad guys will be coming from, and that's forward.
What if you instead chose area#27, area#26, and area#31, and then situated your group of kobolds in the corner of area#27--- gambling, cooking, listening to a braggart, watching a beetle fight, something? This would allow them to view every entry to area#27, while still having their fun...and would especially let them see when Skarr decided to come out of his lair in area#31. Personally, I'd want more kobolds, to salt the group with some that are tougher than others-- allowing a few that generate cleaves, and others that make the group pause and go "Oh no." in that quiet, short way that tells you the players are realizing this isn't going to be an encounter they can phone in. (Speaking as someone who's had to work for a crabby old battlea...cleaver of a boss, you want to know when he's coming out of his offic....lair.) The cave lizards or shocker lizards could then be corralled with a simple barricade in area#26.
If we're working at 4 at Level 4, then you could do 6 at 1/2cr and 3 at 1-- probably a barbarian1, a rogue1, maybe a sorcerer1. Two Cave Lizards fit in nicely, using the monitor lizard... and then we'll call Skarr a Barbarian 3 with lycanthropy... so we're working with a 5, 4, and a 5. The big group of kobolds is probably the one you'll want to tinker with most, they add the personality to this encounter. More leveled kobolds will mean more danger, but also more interest in combat as they won't fold so fast. One spellcaster with a soundburst/burning hands/sleep spell is going to ruin the lower end kobolds, so I really wouldn't consider them a true EL5, more of a 4+ or a 4...
If the party enters via secret door from area#34, the lizards might go berserk as they characters pass their corrall, alerting the kobolds, who dispatch one or two of their number to get Skarr, and perhaps race down the corridor to use the secret passage themselves. They should arrive at that door in three rounds.
Meanwhile, a "harmless" trap at that end of the hall might dump a pot of chum over a couple of squares/characters-- marking them as primary targets for the hungry lizards, who will break through the barricade for their favorite meal, "Wandering Adventurer Tartar." The remaining kobolds will attempt a pitched battle, trying to force the characters back to area#25, but retreating to the crossed hallways of area#27/#24 as needed. I would want these guys flinging tanglefoot bags, thunderstones, alchemists' fire-- all good solid tools against an APL4 party that don't rely on them putting their brittle little selves at risk.
If the party is arriving straight up area#24, put the kobolds in the nook of 27, with a runner to fetch the lizards in area#26 and a runner to alert Skarr in area#31. the lizard wrangler might lose his grip on lizards, letting them rampage amongst kobold and PC alike, and Skarr would likely wade in to sieze a few prisoners. Slaves trade at a premium in the underdark, so prisoners are a reasonable option if things start looking south for the party.
If the party somehow sneaks past the kobolds in #27 and go to engage Skarr in #31, well, then I'd have Skarr roaring in rage as he begins his combats, alerting his minions, who bring the lizards to charge down the hallway for their expected meal, while preparing to do what bands of kobolds do best-- laying pools of oil, lighting torches, readying nets and flasks of alchemists' fire, acid and tanglefoot bags. (If you wanted, area#25 could even be their little chemist's laboratory for the sorcerer.) Caltrops and poisoned arrow volleys would be the other tactics of the day. Depending on how long the tribe has been at this site, you could justify kobold sized tunnels that cut through other walls, allowing the little mongrels to move about the area with more maneuverability than the larger members of the party and possibly even luring kill-hungry smaller characters into tunnel ambushes. Really, that sort of thing is what a group this size does best and gives players nightmares for years. (Shortcuts to #28, #29, into the nooks of #25 and #24 all from #27 could be used by scattering kobolds who then pick up new caches of alchemical irritants to further harry the party...they'll wish they'd just created an illusion to parlay for safe passage.)
Just my thoughts, I just think you might have missed a crucial part of the exercise by going for the defensible position in #32/31, instead of the more crossroads-like #27.
A good DM learnt from his mistakes and fixed them. Not redesigned to whole game to make up for his lack of skill.
Is it just me (a role player from the 70's) that the 10 orks in a 10x10 room problem seems familiar. Some of us had already fixed this problem with good dungeon design years ago and didn't need a designer (younger than some of our dice) to teach us to suck eggs.
A good DM learnt from his mistakes and fixed them. Not redesigned to whole game to make up for his lack of skill.
Age is irrelevant. Not to be a jerk, but how many years of game design do you have - I mean, as a DM is one thing, but as your job, that is something different altogether. Mike (in my opinion) is a great designer and many of the things he has talked about so far sound good to me. The whole "younger than most of our dice" comment just smacks of ageism - I mean, Mozart was performing/composing masterpieces by 6. I'm not saying Mike is a Mozart, but certainly it would fallacious at best to say "younger than me" = fail.
Incidentally, I've been playing for 20+ yrs (all three editions).
Cheers
Is it just me (a role player from the 70's) that the 10 orks in a 10x10 room problem seems familiar. Some of us had already fixed this problem with good dungeon design years ago and didn't need a designer (younger than some of our dice) to teach us to suck eggs.
A good DM learnt from his mistakes and fixed them. Not redesigned to whole game to make up for his lack of skill.
I don't think they're trying to say the design is any different. What they're trying to say is at lower levels you were limited at what you could do with level 1 PCs without having a TPK. What they're trying to say is the new ruleset will give you more flexibility as a DM. Without seeing the rules, I can't say if that's true or an improvement or anything, but I think you're missing what they are saying.
Age is irrelevant. Not to be a jerk, but how many years of game design do you have - I mean, as a DM is one thing, but as your job, that is something different altogether. Mike (in my opinion) is a great designer and many of the things he has talked about so far sound good to me. The whole "younger than most of our dice" comment just smacks of ageism - I mean, Mozart was performing/composing masterpieces by 6. I'm not saying Mike is a Mozart, but certainly it would fallacious at best to say "younger than me" = fail.
Incidentally, I've been playing for 20+ yrs (all three editions).
Cheers
Ok 27 years of game design First convention module 25 years ago. Sure its not my job but as I have to spend hours making professional modules playable before inflicting them on my players I feel qualified to comment.
If you treat encounters as just stats you are doomed to fail. I can kill you with a CR1/3 encounter or let you waltz though an CR3. If the monsters have a reason to be there and a back story it makes for a better game.
I'm just feeling old because I have heard this all before and I'm worried that the people designing the new versions haven't seemed to have learnt anything.
And as for Mozart lets extend the analogy. The Clavichord enabled him to succeed at making playable music for the masses. At six he wrote twinkle twinkle little star (and variations) a mathematical piece with no heart. It wasn't until much later his works could move you to tears.
Designer Mike Mearls posted a "homework assignment" in this D&Di article. You may discuss it here.ShowHomework Assignment
4th Edition is still a ways off, but it’s never too early to start thinking of the dungeons you’re going to design. Here’s a little homework assignment for all of you: Pick two or three closely linked encounter areas on the sample dungeon map. While you obviously don’t have access to the new rules, you can still come up with ideas for encounters. Assuming that you can use four or five monsters, pick two or three encounter areas on the map and turn them into a single fight. Post your ideas in the 4th Edition forums and see what other gamers come up with.
I have always had my party attacked by multiple opponents. Why is this a new thing? Just have the battle take place on a bigger map (each square =10ft) make sure you have all the monsters stats printed out a a single page with any buffs already factored in. And have a Moral break point, Know when is it time to give up and run. Once a monster sees that they are getting slaughtered they will give up or try another way.
Good points, and I think we're of a similar paradigm, but read the bottom of the map-- it *is* one square equals ten feet. I'm pretty sure this is the map out of the old DMG.
Kind of makes your argument a little funny.
This dungeon's never been meant to be anything more than a demo piece. Regardless, it could be functional as any number of locales-- we both know any map can be made to fit what it needs to fit.
But hey, as long as you want to talk it up, then post your example. I'm all for seeing it. Show us what you'd do with the blank canvas.
In the meantime...
Does this seem like a recycled design idea? Yeah, it does. Against the Cult of the Reptile God had interrelated events...but so did Sunless Citadel. The more I think about it, the more I think they're trying to remind the community of the value of this design concept-- while this is a greying hobby, not everyone's been doing this for 25+ years. LG, while a fun campaign, has put a lot of new players in a "Three encounters and done" mode that deserves reeducation. I think the old hands like you and I should sit back and watch, add a few pithy comments that supplement the material and do our best to properly execute the homework as we know it ought to be done..
you can't plan an adventure or encounters like that. you never know what players will do so cant expect them to run the way you want.
it could also be said that the entire level is one fight in that no matter what you face is all part of your escape or entry into the next level.
when i design encounters i design them as things that occur or at least start in that area. a monster may leave its intial area to go on patrol or something while waiting for a party to come across it. others may sit and wait or be gaurding something.
the constraints of the "homework" are too tight. i would not be able to just make a small area or several areas worth of encounter for a single fight.
i would need to develop the entire level in anticipation of what the party may run into, why an encounter would be had in one area and the others have nothing, what may be being protected, etc.
i guess i would fail this homework.
IF i were to try it i would do so around areas 28-30. 29 probably being a non combat encounter. 28 being a combat encounter that can only be escaped via the secret door. 30 being the exit block by another combat that may end up having the party flanked in their attempt to escape either via the stairs at 30 or the alcove of 29 having them pinned in. monsters would depend on suspected party level. again requiring to know more about the area than just a few simple locations as well as what happened or was planned until this point.
I mention my first encounter as it demonstrates the free-form thinking required of the DM to meet the players' needs. I want to "boot" rats, the DM let me do it.
The dungeon design of these days calls for more of this "non-linear" thinking. Instead of a myriad of "what-ifs" in an adventure module, current day DM's want storylines they can present with options on how to present them. Yes, most anyone can run a single room and make a good encounter from it. But, the "monster mash" need can be satisified through electronic games. Dungeons and Dragons needs to emphasize the "think outside the box, players" mentality.
As I have heard many times from experieinced gamers: "A good DM could manage a group fight..." or "A good DM knows when to tone down the action..." What we are missing is the structure and rules set to help people (anyone) become a good DM. The promise from 4e is that we will get faster, easier encounters with less set up time. Bravo!
So, oldtimers, thanks for keeping the game alive and for making an impact on the game by producing well-thought out encounters that we can all learn from and enjoy. No thanks to the attitude that you are the only people who can present a compelling adventure and that people who struggle making a good adventure for their friends are lame.
]Ok, here's my go:
(I did do some dungeon renovation though and I knocked down a few walls...)
Area 10-11
When the players reach the intersection of area 10 read:
“Light shines faintly from a large room about 60’ down, off to your right. The smell from this offshoot of the main hallway carries a strong odor of decay mixed with the sharp sting of some kind of caustic chemical. Along the left and right sides of this hallway you can make out the faint outline of prison bars but there is no movement from within. Unexpectedly, you see a figure walk across from one side of the room to the other and the figure passes just as quickly out of your view… it was a large stoop shouldered human freak with a thick leather butcher’s apron that seemed covered with red smears. Although glimpsed only for a moment, you notice that he carries a large oversized meat hook crudely attached at the end of a large wooden pole. The hook seemed coated with a brown flecked gore.
Suddenly, a blood curdling scream filled with pain comes from the room. Whoever the butcher is, it would seem he has more than beef on the menu…”
Monsters: 1 Human FTR, 1 Gnome WIZ, 6 Dire Rats
Setup Instructions: Sketch out the intersection of the hallway (10) and the room itself (11). Place the players at the intersection and ask for their actions. A table with the victim should be placed in the lower right corner of room 11. FTR is on the side of the table closest to the players, WIZ is on other side of table (cover?)
Listen/Spot Checks: DC (24) vs. Dire rats currently in the filth and trash of the darkened prison cells that line the hallway. The screaming of the bound victim as he begins to be flayed alive gives a -10 modifier to listen checks. The cover of the filth and refuse within the cells provides a +5 modifier to the rats hide skill.
Logical Flow: Party will rush to the aid of the victim. Hunchback fighter will work as meat shield treat his large hook as Guisarme (w/ trip attacks). Gnome WIZ has single injection of poison that he jabs at anyone who goes prone. Gnome WIZ first action is to blow on a dog-whistle currently hanging around his neck which calls the rats to dinner. Rats slip through bars and swarm rear of party. Gnome WIZ normally uses rats to clean up any extra refuse so the rats come hungry when they hear it sound…
Possible Additional Options: (Not required) (1) Higher levels might include a flesh golem? (2) You might include a grate/pit in the center of the floor where the WIZ dumps his refuse (a carrion crawler might be kept there for harvest of it's paralyzing saliva)? (3) The floor could be covered with blood and slime requiring balance checks?
---------------------------------------
So, without to much detail thats the sketch of my cool encounter. I would try to add as much detail to the 'torture' room as possible by adding mad-doctor type equipment/fluff. Whether the prisoner is alive or dead by the end of the rescue is up to the DM and the adventure. Any party that bypasses the chance at a rescue should have their hero credentials checked... ;)
--AOM
Ok, here's my go:
(I did do some dungeon renovation though and I knocked down a few walls...)
Area 10-11
Setup Instructions: Sketch out the intersection of the hallway (10) and the room itself (11). Place the players at the intersection and ask for their actions. A table with the victim should be placed in the lower right corner of room 11. FTR is on the side of the table closest to the players, WIZ is on other side of table (cover?)
Logical Flow: Party will rush to the aid of the victim. Hunchback fighter will work as meat shield treat his large hook as Guisarme (w/ trip attacks). Gnome WIZ has single injection of poison that he jabs at anyone who goes prone. Gnome WIZ first action is to blow on a dog-whistle currently hanging around his neck which calls the rats to dinner. Rats slip through bars and swarm rear of party. Gnome WIZ normally uses rats to clean up any extra refuse so the rats come hungry when they hear it sound…
In my opinion, this is a good core event, but the point we're missing here is the aspect of multiple avenues of attack. I would suggest keeping the location as you have it, but adding this:
Area#7: An underdark ranger, perhaps a bugbear and his animal companion. He is awaiting the results of the interrogation in Area#11 as he plans his next raid. Should an alarm in #11 be sounded, he'll spend a round scooping his plans into a chest and locking it, then charge out with his animal companion to join the fight.
Area#12: A group of goblins bringing a prisoner to an open-air lockdown area-- a-la _Robin Hood_, where prisoners are chained to the wall by their hands and neck and unable to do more than shout for help as they await interrogation. The goblins need three rounds to lockdown their current prisoner before they can charge back to the entrance to 10 to join the combat. (1 round to open the locks, 1 to position the prisoner, 1 to lock him in.) This group could be leveled goblins, a pack of mooks combined with a leveled goblin, or all mooks. A each goblin carries a different key to each lock, so should one or two flee, the newly deposited prisoner will have a tough time being freed.
Now we're dealing with a situation where the monsters will be arriving to the battlefield in waves, from multiple directions. The tighter quarters mean that depending on how the battle's going, the party will have different avenues of retreat if they need to do so.
That's the key aspect to this assignment-- you want a dynamic environment with many possible paths for the bad guys to use so that the combat will be more dramatic...not that multiple attack paths are needed for dramatic battles, but it's the design tenet we're focusing on for now...
My thought was not to have multiple waves or approaches but rather to create an encounter that 'resolved' an entire section of the dungeon in a single encounter, and that the encounter provide a multi-critter challenge that involved all of the party from multiple angles.
I envisioned that the fighter of the party would rush down the hallway with perhaps the cleric or rogue type char, while the other two in the party proceeded more cautiously. The rats provide a dangerous challenge to non-fighter types who typically hang in the rear, while the FTR and WIZ provided a frantic centerpiece for the first two heroes to reach the room.
In this way, the players naturally avoided the typical 'cram the door' style defense of the party, and better yet, by using the lure of a rescue, we stretch the party out into a less than optimal position which raises the concerns of party members who rushed ahead being trapped or cutoff from the other members. Even if the party stays together, the party will be challenged on two fronts, and again avoids the 'cram the door' defense. The size of the room will allow for maneuvering and swarming by the rats if the party has ventured in deep into the room.
When the encounter is ultimately resolved, the party feels good. They (possibly) rescued a npc, and they overcame a colorful challenge that would seem like a whirlwind of action with the rats running rampant countered by the slow methodical advance of the FTR while the WIZ created general bedlam.
The party would leave with a solid understanding of what they accomplished. They stopped an evil torturing maniac, destroyed his leather aproned goon and ended the evil that would otherwise have continued to occur had they not been involved. It is a natural result that the DM doesn't have to explain because we all recognize the heroic aspect of rescuing the weak from evil torturers.
I also think the setup explains why the whole dungeon doesn't immediately come crashing in to find the cause of the disturbance... they are used to screams coming from this area! This allows the party to continue to explore the dungeon without wondering why the monsters next door didnt come to investigate. Most have learned to stay out of this area lest they fall into the hands of the mad gnome, and any who do venture near are used to hearing the sounds of screaming and hoarse grunting coming from that hallway.
When compared to the more vanilla set-up of having a group of goblins guard the prison cells or prisoners in their cells, the party will more likely remember their encounter with the mad doctor/wizard and his leather aproned gorilla goon in the torture chamber. The dire rats feeding on the bones and refuse of the dead is just natural additional dungeon goodness.
I liked your suggestions to. I think I took the idea of the assignment slightly differently, but I am sure there are no 'right' or 'wrong' answers as much as just thinking of new ways to engage players.
Thanks for the feedback roir1k!
--AOM
When compared to the more vanilla set-up of having a group of goblins guard the prison cells or prisoners in their cells, the party will more likely remember their encounter with the mad doctor/wizard and his leather aproned gorilla goon in the torture chamber. The dire rats feeding on the bones and refuse of the dead is just natural additional dungeon goodness.
I like your back story. This is an example of the kind of information that makes a memorable encounter for the party and the DM. With your well-constructed story, the DM understands the "area of effect" of the encounter while getting into the mind of the antagonists.
Thanks for the response roir1k.
My thought was not to have multiple waves or approaches but rather to create an encounter that 'resolved' an entire section of the dungeon in a single encounter, and that the encounter provide a multi-critter challenge that involved all of the party from multiple angles.
And that's probably where the source of the differing viewpoints comes from.
I envisioned that the fighter of the party would rush down the hallway with perhaps the cleric or rogue type char, while the other two in the party proceeded more cautiously. The rats provide a dangerous challenge to non-fighter types who typically hang in the rear, while the FTR and WIZ provided a frantic centerpiece for the first two heroes to reach the room.
And different playstyles can impact that anticipated response, as well. Many players I know have been bitten a few times by the "wolf-in-sheep's clothing" sort of ambush that your scenario potentially has. They might try some missle fire to draw the goon, or a battlefield control spell to either incapaciate the goon and/or the wizard. They might just send the rogue down hidden or invisible to ambush one or both foes. The standard operating procedure of a party can be a big impact on the flow of an encounter. It all depends on how cautiously they play their characters and the overall tone that run the game. Sure, there are a couple of visible foes, but there might be three or four more out of sight who could really ruin the combat. For instance, what if the wizard kept his grell hanging over the door to handle the larger "scraps?" your charging combatants might find themselves trapped in the torture room and their comrades isolated.
In this way, the players naturally avoided the typical 'cram the door' style defense of the party, and better yet, by using the lure of a rescue, we stretch the party out into a less than optimal position which raises the concerns of party members who rushed ahead being trapped or cutoff from the other members. Even if the party stays together, the party will be challenged on two fronts, and again avoids the 'cram the door' defense. The size of the room will allow for maneuvering and swarming by the rats if the party has ventured in deep into the room.
When the encounter is ultimately resolved, the party feels good. They (possibly) rescued a npc, and they overcame a colorful challenge that would seem like a whirlwind of action with the rats running rampant countered by the slow methodical advance of the FTR while the WIZ created general bedlam.
The party would leave with a solid understanding of what they accomplished. They stopped an evil torturing maniac, destroyed his leather aproned goon and ended the evil that would otherwise have continued to occur had they not been involved. It is a natural result that the DM doesn't have to explain because we all recognize the heroic aspect of rescuing the weak from evil torturers.
All very true and good points-- I didn't mean to invalidate any of them. I did want to bring additional aspects to the encounter that involved a greater area of the dungeon. While the rats would have brought a sort of flood effect to the combat, adding attacks from either side, I guess I thought that the overall impact of the rats would be limited while the goblin and bugbear present greater threats to the overall encounter.
I also think the setup explains why the whole dungeon doesn't immediately come crashing in to find the cause of the disturbance... they are used to screams coming from this area! This allows the party to continue to explore the dungeon without wondering why the monsters next door didnt come to investigate. Most have learned to stay out of this area lest they fall into the hands of the mad gnome, and any who do venture near are used to hearing the sounds of screaming and hoarse grunting coming from that hallway.
When compared to the more vanilla set-up of having a group of goblins guard the prison cells or prisoners in their cells, the party will more likely remember their encounter with the mad doctor/wizard and his leather aproned gorilla goon in the torture chamber. The dire rats feeding on the bones and refuse of the dead is just natural additional dungeon goodness.
Absolutely! As I said, I think this is a great core event to then orbit the other encounters around. However, if you add the other two encounters, then you have a more dynamic environment-- the bugbear could be waiting on information the goon or wizard might bring him, or the goblins could be bringing a different prisoner to the wizard or bugbear after a certain period. All of those sorts of things give you options to the scene that are precluded with just one event.
I liked your suggestions to. I think I took the idea of the assignment slightly differently, but I am sure there are no 'right' or 'wrong' answers as much as just thinking of new ways to engage players.
Thanks for the feedback roir1k!
--AOM
Quite so! I agree wholeheartedly. I can see how your interpretation of the assignment could be just as valid. And you're very welcome.
Absolutely! As I said, I think this is a great core event to then orbit the other encounters around. However, if you add the other two encounters, then you have a more dynamic environment-- the bugbear could be waiting on information the goon or wizard might bring him, or the goblins could be bringing a different prisoner to the wizard or bugbear after a certain period. All of those sorts of things give you options to the scene that are precluded with just one event.
This is a powerful statement regarding encounter design:
"...A great core event that other encounters can orbit around..."
Another way to look at this is the cinemetic approach. When the good guys are trying to sneak out of the jail, the audience gets to see the jailer walking his dogs and the stray noble who may bump into the movie's heroes.
Designers need to provide for this foreshadowing in terms of story information for the DM as well as simple hints for the DM to drop.
DM Information:
Dungeon escape route: This escape route leads the party from the dungeons to the servant quarters for visitors. It is a steep climb out of the cage through a hole in the floor. [This is the central theme]
Jailer and dogs: The jailer makes rounds with his two hound dogs once each hour. His dogs are noisy and snuffle along the ground. Constantly, they pause to let out a howl that they have found something. The jailer is generally ignores the dogs bays as he is tired of being dragged about the dungeon levels. [This is orbiting]
Perception = You notice the jailer has be absent for some time. You hear the baying of a hound dog.
Nervous Noble: This noble is wandering down the wrong hall. He is seeking a tryst with a visiting duchess, but she has provided him with confusing directions in the form of a crude map and a suggestive love note. [This is orbiting]
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) = This area seems like it leads to the living quarters.
If the encounters are in "orbit" about the central theme, then it is easy for the DM to pull them in at the right moment (especially if it is right when the players think it should happen).
In fact, I see it as a DM's perfect moment when a player asks "what about that howling we just heard?" They are now hooked and you have to show the jailer and his dog.
The players may question: "Why does the noble pick this moment to show up?", the DM can emphasize: "He looks nervous and is carrying a map."
Speaking of encounter design, are traps just another form of monster?
Could you not "stat out" a trap as a monster with 0 speed (or specific speed like 10 straight line from square A to B) and special attack abilities?
You could (and I think you've done a great job of doing so), but then you would have a player who insists on playing a trap as his PC race.
{players open a large, rusty, engraved bronze door}
A raised 25ft diamater platform with a lavaflow just 30 feet below roars below our little band. An old decrepid iron bridge 'reinforced' with scorced wooden boards and twisted nails create a fearful bridge that makes even the faithless of the heros pray before they cross.
{the romaticized bridge clues the player to the impending boss fight}
the roar of lava, the raging heat, the smell of ash and sulfur all sting as our heros as they cross the bridge. That is when they notice the altar and the 2ft raised platform in the center of the circle. before further investigation a beast calls fourth; a roar, beastal and savage, fills the chamber with noise and hearts with a dash of fear.
{this is when players panic and get a standard action}
With a blur lands a crash of muscle and metal that is felt through the heavy stone floors. With two axes and clad in metal a large creature lands, eyes an inferno, a minotaur thirsts for blood.
{players act for one round}
the minotaur effortlessly tosses a axe past the heros to a stump snaping a rope. a rope that secured a weight that secured the bridge. Now the fight is to the death, no running, no hiding. The minotaur has already flipped another axe out of its belt, and its eyes and rage now square on our heros.
{Combat!}
Now is that *****'n or what?
yeah, I like boss fights.
you would have a player who insists on playing a trap as his PC race.
LOL, I guess I did not think of that. But I do have another:
Rolling Bolder
(as seen in Indiana Jones)
hp 65 (7 HD); DR 10/bludgeoning
Large Trap
Init +12; Senses none
--------------------------------------------
AC 17, touch 10, flat 17 (+0 Dex, +7 natural)
For +10, Ref +5, Will immune
Weakness stone to flesh (or some similar spell) negates DR; cannot squeeze through an opening that is less than 10 ft. wide.
--------------------------------------------
Speed 60 ft. (straight line only)
Space 10 ft.Reach 0 ft.
Attack: Run Over +15 (2d8+8) (see below)
Base Atk +7; Grp none
--------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 26, Dex 10, Con --, Int --, Wis -- Cha --
Feats Improved Overrun
Skills Initiative +10
--------------------------------------------
Trap traits:
Skills: Boulder Traps are always trained in Initiative. They gain a +5 bonus to Initiative.
Objects: Traps are objects, and as such are immune to (all the things that constructs are immune to and then some).
Run Over: A Rolling Boulder cannot make attacks of any sort. On its turn it can make any number of attacks to creatures in squares that it passes through. An attacked creature can also make an attack of opportunity as the rolling trap leaves its square (after the rolling boulder has made its attack).
Monsters Stats as Traps, Environment, Spell Effects ?!?
Players have entered the dungeon at 39 and already cleared or stealthed through room 24 on the way to the encounter. At this time 27 is empty (after the event triggers this changes) although they start from this point to smell something foul and burning starting to fill the air. The smell continues to increase as they pass 26 which at this time appears empty but a quick glance around the room reveals a very cluttered storage area with a great deal of dead animals in various stages of decay and all have been chopped and hacked so much that it would be impossible to determine what animal they came from. A detailed search reveals a cage with a Displacer beast held captive (the cook is having a hard time finding a suitable means of killing it, he has been feeding it well though as he wants it to be nice and meaty when he can find a way to do it in).
The event is triggered when the pcs round the corner in area 25 to see a Goblin cook "Zigumm" (Orc Expert 6) standing on a small ladder over a bubbling pot, a metal triangle in his left hand and a large metal spoon in his right. Although he is much higher level than the group, he does not want a fight. Zigumm was just about to ring the dinner bell and he know that if he does, all the right people will come in and find the PC's, even if they were just expecting dinner.
Ziggum tries to ring the dinner bell (standard action) each round as he retreats any way he can and he knows how to open the secret door, if thats his only option.
After he rings the bell, the guard (orc fighter 1)protecting room 28 is the first to arrive and steps into position at location 27. Hes not the first to eat and he knows it, but being near the front of the line helps. If the Pc's try to flee the way they came, they will run into him.
3 rounds after the bell rang for the first time the leader "Gomgul" (orc Barbarian 3) comes to get his fill. His intent is to eat and get 2nds then have Ziggum ring the bell again saying its time for the rest to eat. If the bell is rang more than once before Gromgul gets his fill then he will enter already raging (Ziggum has the scars to prove it from his last mis-signal).
After the bell rings the 2nd time or more *something that can be heard throughout most of the dungeon as its accompanied by a very loud "Come and get it inventation by Ziggum" The pcs are placed in a very tight spot. Hungry orcs from all over the dungeon will be stopping by to get some grub. Every 1d6 rounds after the 2nd bell an orc starts heading to get dinner from a random location in the dungeon. It doesnt stop until the entire dungeon has been fed or killed in the non-stop battle. The Dm will need to select a room at random and have them "walk" to dinner taking only a half move each turn to get there.