Firearms and Artillery for D&D

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

zombiegleemax

Nov 25, 2003 19:41:20
Firearms and shot use is hotly debated in some RPG circles, and there are disagreements as to what the game mechanics for firearms and artillery should be. The following is my solution to the use of and the introduction of 15th to18th century firearms and artillery, both magical and non-magical, in a fantasy setting.

The standard firearm will use 1-ounce of blackpowder per shot. The powder propels a 1-ounce lead ball that inflicts terrible damage, but has limited accuracy.

Rate of fire is 1/10 ( one minute ) untrained
1/5 ( 30 seconds ) trained
Trained means: Martial Weapon Proficiency/Firearms

Basic Firearms

Blunderbuss:

Damage: 3d10 at short range/ 2d10 medium/1d10 long
Critical: x3
Ranges: 25ft/50ft/75ft
ROF: 1/5 ( 1/10 untrained )
Special: Knockdown at short range ( Reflex Save DC 20, creatures size S or M )/ 10ft spread at medium range/ broken glass, nails, gravel, and lead balls may be used as ammunition.
Price:40-400gp*

Pistol:

Damage: 1d10
Critical: x3
Ranges: 50ft/100ft/150ft
ROF: 1/5 ( 1/10 untrained )
Special: NA
Price: 20-200gp*

Musket:

Damage: 2d10
Critical: x3
Ranges: 150ft/300ft/450ft
ROF: 1/5 ( 1/10 untrained )
Special: NA
Price: 30-300gp*

*Costs vary depending on the tech level of the setting and availability of the weapons. It wouldn't be unfair to even multiply the prices as high as 10 times or more in some settings.

Explosives and Artillery

Keg of powder is a 5 lb keg.
5d10 damage 0-5'
3d10 damage 6-15'
1d10 damage 16-25'
BR: 25'

For multiple kegs, up the area of effect by 1' for every additional keg. Each keg will inflict damage, so multiply damage.

Example: 12 kegs BR = 36'ft max ( 5d10 x 12 0-16' 3d10 x12 17-26' 1d10 x 12 27-36' ) damage = x12

Gunpowder price: 1-10gp per lb
Basic firearm bullets cost 1-10gp per bag.

Cannons

Damage depends on the shot used. The size of the cannon affects only the range. The rules can be expanded to reflect heavier shot, but this is optional. The following is a basic guideline for quick artillery. Ranges are roundshot/grapeshot.

Roundshot: d10 damage (optional rule making damage d10 per 1b of weight for the shot)
Grapeshot: d10 per 5' square occupied. Reflex save dc 20 for 1/2. The ranges reflect a cone shaped area of effect, extending to full width at maximum effective range.
Rate of fire assumes a full crew. Add 5 rounds to the reload time for every 1 short in a crew.
Crew: minimum for any cannon is 2, the exception being the light cannon.

Creating magical shot for artillery could be extremely expensive in material costs, due to the fact that roundshot is rated by the pound. I suggest that any magical artillery shot should include a x3 modifier to the total market price and the cost to create.

Light cannon (deck guns, and chasers. Giant sized humanoids with strengths 20 and above could carry such weapons and use as blunderbuss)
Range: 200-300/20-30 (Optional roundshot weight maximum 4lbs)
Reload/ Rate of fire (trained only): 1/10
Crew: 2
Price: 200-2000gp

Medium Cannon (standard field artillery 18th 7 19th century)
Range 400-500/40-50
(Optional roundshot weight maximum 18lbs)
Reload/rof (trained only): 1/20
Crew: 4
Price: 400-4000gp

Heavy cannon (bombards, super cannons)
Range 600-700/60-70
(Optional roundshot weight maximum 50lbs)
Reload/rof (trained only): 1/30
Crew: 6
Price: 600-6000gp

Roundshot costs 1gp per pound of shot
Grapeshot is the same price as firearm shot

Magical Ammunition

Silver Seekers
Silver seekers are firearm bullets that are usually found in bags of 10. Each bullet is made of mithril silver and enchanted to seek out a chosen target. The bullets are made for a variety of firearms. The bullets may only be used in the firearm they were intended, and will do damage based on the type of firearm they were designed for (See Basic Firearms above ).
Each bullet/shot will have a +20 insight bonus to strike its target, as long as the previous round was spent aiming the weapon.

Caster Level 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft (Gunsmith), True Strike; Market Price: 4,250gp (Per bag of 10) ; Cost to Create: 2,125gp 1062 xp

Flaming Shot
Flaming shot bullets are usually found in bags of 10. Each bullet is made of hollow lead balls filled with an alchemist fire type substance that has been enchanted. Each bullet inflicts 1d6 damage in addition to the normal damage inflicted for the type of firearm the bullets were made for. The bullets may only be used in the firearm they were intended, and will do damage based on the type of firearm they were designed for (See Basic Firearms above).

Caster Level 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft (Gunsmith), Flame Arrow; Market Price: 4,500 (Per bag of 10) ; Cost to Create: 2,250 1,125 xp

Flaming Grapeshot
Flaming grapeshot is identical to the flaming shot used for basic firearms except that it is fired from a cannon.

Caster Level 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft (Gunsmith), Flame Arrow; Market Price: 4,500 ( Per bag of 10 ) ; Cost to Create: 2,250 1,125 xp

Magical Firearms and Artillery
Basic Firearms: Enchantment bonuses
See table 8-10 Page 184 DMG
All costs x2

Artillery: Enchantment bonuses
See table 8-10 Page 184 DMG
All costs x3

Many of the same features found on other magical weapons, can be found amongst magical firearms at double the cost. The costs have been increased to reflect the complexity of enchanting more complex and volatile weaponry.
#2

plexor

Nov 28, 2003 12:43:07
The Dungeon Master’s Guide also has rules and stats for guns in it.
#3

zombiegleemax

Feb 22, 2004 1:46:52
Seems to me that firearms are horribly underpowered. The system I always advocate--and get smacked down--is a system using percentage of total hit points. If you score a hit with an arquebus, a d10 is rolled, and whatever value is rolled is multiplied by ten, and that value is the percentage of total hit points taken off. Rolling a 10 for damage is an instant death. If a character has a 50 base hp and the roll for damage is 4, 20 hp is subtracted, regardless of its current level. I understand why high level characters have high HP because they can anticipate, dodge and roll with the blows, but with a small ball of lead traveling very fast there is no chance of avoiding it in midair and no way to roll with the punch. No one ever agrees with me, but no one ever give a good reason why my idea is bad. I would appreciate some expert criticism.
#4

zombiegleemax

Feb 29, 2004 0:31:03
It seems to me that firearms are almost always well overpowered in RPGs.

Early firearms gained popularity not cos they did horrendous amounts of damage to a person but rather cos they punched through armor much more easily than did most other weapons, and did so from a great distance. Armorers tried to keep up - leading to armor of proof - but firearms too improved and eventually people just stopped wearing armor altogether.

The truth is that a 5-pound club of sharpened steel does delivers a lot more of its energy to a target - even when wielded by a rather flimsy sack of blood and bone - than does a small ball of lead, even if propelled by explosives.

Firearms should do no more damage than regular D&D weapons, in indeed should really do less damage. To more accurately represent early firearms, they should suffer substantial minuses to accuracy based on range, but should ignore the portion of a target's AC provided by armor.
#5

zombiegleemax

Mar 01, 2004 2:53:10
The reason why percent HP damage isn't generically appreciated is because you could attack a dragon with 1,500 HP, and (using the method you described below) kill it with one shot.

Now, that is possible if you were to roll at least two twenties, and then beat the dragon's AC with a third roll, or simply roll another 20. Dm's guide has a rule that allows for such a rare incident to be a lethal attack (However, two twenties is 1/400, 3 twenties is 1/8,000, and the system you offered is 1/10, perhaps this is why?), and while yes, guns are very lethal, they are not necessarily 40X, or 800X better than a bow, or a throwing dagger, in fact, an arrow has a greater penetration than a bullet (usually).

Here's what I would outline for guns:

Only 1/2 dex modifier added to AC (you can duck and cover but you can't dodge bullets)

Dodge does work, but like dex only 1/2.

Light armor should not add its bonus to AC against bullets (unless made bulletproof, perhaps for 250 gold?)

These are what I wouldn't do without; other stuff should probably still be added however.
#6

silverwave

Mar 03, 2004 14:54:46
For my part, i just use the DM's firearms stats but on damage roll, if you roll the maximum (for example, on a d12 if you hit 12) then you may reroll the dice and add it to the first one. This could go virtually infinitely (but chances are very low). This makes firearms more powerful and dangerous, but they cost about 2000 gold, and the gunpowder is costly too and are easily lost and also deplete with use (about 10 uses and there’s no power left).

Also, my firearms are ignoring armor (the bullet pierce it) or natural armor. Only magic, dex and dodge provide protection from bullets (it's like a spell's range touch attack).
#7

zombiegleemax

Mar 04, 2004 8:43:14
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't firearms in the DMG Ranged Touch Attacks? That's how I use them and it takes into effect its penetrating power. As far as energy per square inch of a spiked club vs. a bullet, a spiked club has limited penetration not because of its surface are, but rather because a spike is only so long and can be deflected more readily than a bullet strike. I think armor needs a 30-45 degree slant to effectively double its thickness vs. ballistic penetrators, whereas the curve or slant of body armor can be significantly smaller to deflect a blow from a melee weapon. Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong about the touch attack thing.
#8

etiquette_gnome

Mar 10, 2004 2:07:11
Going on about bullet penetration is all well and good. But the longbow was famous for its ability to go through armor as well, but I don't see people advocating making them ranged touch attacks and crap. They were feared weapons from the English and all that.

The TRUE reason for the eventual dominance of guns wasn't that their armor penetration was superior to ALL other weapons (they eventually became such), but their ease of use. You did about the same damage as any other weapon wielder, but needed virtually no training to fire it from a distance.

As a result, military actions were able to be performed *much* more effectively and efficiently with the presence of viable infantry armies. Instead of having to make it your profession to be an effective fighter, you only have to give a fraction of the training to a peasant when you hand them a gun. Before, serfs with pitchforks didn't stand much of a chance against a highly trained and armored men. Guns made them as threatening as any bowmen.

This, in turn, reduced the value of the knights/cavalry, and gave more power to the masses. The cost comparisons of cavalry (trained from childhood, armored, given a horse, etc.) vs a semi-trained peasant (cost of gun and a few days of your time) were astronomical.

Now, the fading of heavy armor did have some blame to the increase of gun penetration (over time), but cost effectiveness is a matter as well. Why pay for that suit of armor when you can outfit a small regiment with guns? Eventually, because of this focus on firearms and reduced emphasis on armor for cost reasons, firearm technology advanced faster and armor finally did become useless against them (which forced out the remnants of their use on the battlefield).
#9

zombiegleemax

Mar 11, 2004 16:20:29
Originally posted by Silverwave
For my part, i just use the DM's firearms stats but on damage roll, if you roll the maximum (for example, on a d12 if you hit 12) then you may reroll the dice and add it to the first one. This could go virtually infinitely (but chances are very low). This makes firearms more powerful and dangerous, but they cost about 2000 gold, and the gunpowder is costly too and are easily lost and also deplete with use (about 10 uses and there’s no power left).

Open-ended rolls are very, very dangerous. They can lead to preposterous results and are, potentially, a campaign-killer.

Many years ago a mate of mine was in a MERP game. They encountered Sauron and my mate took a wild shot with a bow. Many, many, many open-ended rolls later and the dark lord of Middle Earth lay dead form a single arrow. While this may make for a funny anecdote, it makes for a lousy campaign.

Also, I don't quite understand what you mean when you say "gunpowder is costly too and are easily lost and also deplete with use (about 10 uses and there’s no power left". Are you implying that the same powder charge is used over and over again, losing power each time?

In real life guns were very expensive early on, not cos they were horrendously damaging but cos each one was a custom-made, complex machine and a work of art to boot. There was as much, if not more, effort put into these guns as into the finest swords or armor. They were status symbols as much as weapons.

The gun is not the be-all and end-all of death-dealing that many people seem to think it is. It is no more - and indeed normally far less - damaging than a sword, or even an arrow.
#10

zombiegleemax

Apr 05, 2004 11:11:13
Well, considering the explosion like effect of a bullet, I hardly see how it deals less damage than a sword. When a bullet hits its target, it sends very powerful shockwaves through the flesh, often destroying organs, nerves, veins, etc. A bullet passing a foot in front of your eyes can make you blind. Then there is the vacuum effect of the bullet going out. Sucks out a bit of the flesh. And if it doesn't go out, it's even worse! All the energy is transferred to the body, with devastating effect. And of course, a lead ball lying inside your body never causes poisoning. Firearms are damn powerful. Although a sword causes really nasty cuts, the body has certain ways to cope with that, making sure not all the blood leaves.
#11

zombiegleemax

Apr 05, 2004 23:01:38
I recently started up a cavalier-era time in my campaign setting, incorporating things like firearms. I agree with what some of the previous posters on this thread said, but disagree with other parts. Also, thanks shivamuffin--your post inspired me a bit. I was trying to think of some kind of way to make sweet magical guns, and I hadn't thought about the bullets.

I had never thought about the popularization of firearms being due to the ease that it takes to train someone how to use it effectively. That's a good point, Etiquette_Gnome.

You're probably right about gunshot wounds dealing as much damage as a sword wound. haha, my first impression when I started the campaign was "omgomg guns kill pepoepl! omg make them do lots of damage!!" Then after I cooled down, I figured out that sword wounds were meant to kill people, too, and probably do it in a more brutal fashion, right?

Then I got to thinking...if a bullet hits you anywhere on your torso, its not like its going to go in an inch and then stop before it hits your aorta. Its probably going to go right through you, and leave a nasty nasty exit wound. You can't just get -sorta- hit with a bullet. Sure, you can take a shot to your foot, or your forearm, or your ear or something, but in any case its going to demolish what it hits, armor or no.

What I finally settled on for damage amounts will probably seem a little high to you. The rate of fire is automatically going to be kind of crappy on firearms. Its not like they have AK-47s in the Enchanted Lands or anything. I figured that, if a proficient player could give a full combat round of undivided attention to loading a firearm, he could fire it at a rate of 1/2. That's probably still a little fast, but if it took 5 rounds to get a shot off it would probably be a little less than desirable. Once again, game mechanics over reality.

So how do you decide damage? I figure if you're going to make guns anywhere near desirable, they've got to do enough damage to make up for their inherent disadvantages. Otherwise, you'll have NPCs holding the PCs up, saying "Don't move!" and the PC will think "Its okay. I have 18 hp, and the gun will only do d10 damage to me! I'll charge with my axe!"

Here's what I settled on:

Single-barreled common pistol - 2d8 dmg
Double-barreled pistol - 2d10 dmg (rounds can be fired separately or together)
Musket - 3d10 dmg

I decided that firearms would backfire on natural attack rolls of 1, and they would misfire on 2-3. Backfiring does d6 damage to the wielder, and the gun is ruined, repairs costing 1/2 the price of the gun. Misfiring causes only an explosion in the barrel but no shot, and the gun is damaged, repairs costing 1/4 the paid price of the gun. However, critical hit is on 19-20, and deals x3 damage.

Gunfire ignores armor, of course. Dex modifiers apply, as well as magical armor class bonuses (ring of protection, etc).

So far, the campaign has gone extremely well, and the players are having a lot of fun with it. Its definitely a change in combat style from melee. I think one of the reasons that this is working so well is because a lot of my encounters are human-to-human encounters as opposed to dragons or gnolls or what have you. I just like the depth that human encounters add to the game, and plus it makes magical encounters more rare and exciting. Low-magic setting is a little off-topic, though, and I understand there's some controversy about it. Either way, its been fun running this campaign so far. Hope my ideas helped out.
#12

Michielfl

Apr 17, 2004 6:35:34
If one discusses the subject of firearms in a D&D game, one should take into account the amount technology and knowledge is available for the development of firearms. Early firearms, for example the guns used by the Dutch rebellion army in the sixteenth century, were not very effective. If a bullet was fired from a musket, in that time still too heavy to fire with two hands, in a 60 degree angle it would carry for about a kilometre and drop to the ground with only it’s own weight as impact. The gun was effective op to a maximum of 60 metres, about 200 feet. The reason they used the gun, is because of its relative simplicity in usage.

A bow was much more effective. It’s aim was better, it’s range was better, it’s rate of fire was better. But to train a man to effectively use a bow on the battlefield took many years of training. Most men did not even have the strength to fire a longbow. It took a force of about 60 pounds to fire one, English longbow men trained their whole life with it. It was elevated to a national sport in England, just to have enough longbow men in their army.

One could conclude that early guns were not very effective, and should have lower damage scores then for example longbows. But in the end it all comes down to what you want as a DM. The game isn’t built on realism, it’s made for entertainment and cinematic play. Almost every man is incapacitated with a single blow of a sword. No man could survive the blast of a fireball. But it wouldn’t be fun if we played the game like that.

In conclusion I would like to say, make guns what you want them to be. If you want them to be as effective as a M1 rifle from WW1, make it’s range increment long, make sure it does a lot of damage and let it have a high critical rate and range. If you want guns to be of the same calibre as other weapons in the D&D world, use the statistics from the DM’s Guide.
#13

noriass_gato

Apr 23, 2004 11:40:46
The base stats:

Pistol (a long barreled [0,5m barrel] burning coal ignited stuff)
Range 50, 10 increments, damage 3d6 20/*3
At first 30 feet ignores armor/shield to AC (magical stuff still apply magical plusses)

Rate of reload 3 full rounds provoking AoO

Can take a feat to reduce it to 2 and second time to 1 full round.

Quality of reload ruled by new skill (gun loading) DEX based, any class can take...

DC 15 to fire at all, DC 25 to fire ok.

If less that 15, roll on mishap table d20 with -2 mod.
If more that 15 less that 25 roll on mishap with 0 mod.

Mishap table 1d20.

On 1, gun explodes in hand.
Other options include gun just burning powder without expending bullet or the charge being too weak to give it a shot, or gun clogging up after shot is being made.

Each additional shot after first, without cleaning it up, makes a 3% additional chance of mishap happening.

Loading gun up beforehand is ok, including taking 10, but more that a day, and GM starts assigning penalty on the quality of load, and if there are poor weather conditions, even worse (rain, mist, snow)

Some crazy gnome invented this and holds a monopoly on guns and powder production.

Currently, two PC own guns, and they count on them as combat opening weaponry.

There were bigger versions with 3d8 damage, but PC decided against weighting themselves with a gun, an aiming pike, extra gunpowder and bullets.
#14

zombiegleemax

May 02, 2004 0:28:31
For power, it really depends.

Medieval guns were not as TEH UUUUBER as stated. They were big and lead, but they are pretty much on par with other weapons from D&D, if you ask me. A longbow would have better performance, but it's much harder to use.

Now, modern firearms? No question. The effects of a supersonic piece of metal entering your body is rather large, to state the least. Modern guns would be stronger than medieval weapons, if by rate of fire if not damage.
#15

Silverblade_The_Enchanter

May 03, 2004 13:45:07
Firearms are *not* more lethal than melee weapons in *general*. You can go look up statistics and medical reports on this. As a generalization, a stab wound to the chest is more likely to kill you than a bullet. Bullets penetrate armour because of their speed and small cross section--similar to a pick-type melee weapon.

Melee weapons deliver huge amounts of energy to the victim (if blunt), or literally hack huge chunks into or out of you (losing limbs was pretty common in battles). Edged weapons are very likely to severe arteries and that's what kills most folk.

Bullets are able to deliver high speed shock waves to the victim on impact, this can cause shock (the medical definition), and possibly destroy organs or limbs. But it is very, very unpredictable because bullets are so *tiny*. People can be hit multiple times by a military rifle and not be to badly effected...or they can die from being hit in the hand. They are far less likely to sever arteries, though damage to major organs can result in catastrophic bleeding.

Most modern military bullets are designed to cripple, not kill. Large bullets, rounded tip or spherical, and slow bullets tend to dump more energy into the victim, and are thus more lethal. The speed of a bullet is such that it generally cannot deliver its energy to the victim and expends it on hitting a truly solid object behind them. For this reason, bullets like the .45 ACp, .50 Calibre Browning and shotgun rounds, are far more likely to kill you than a standard 5.56mm M-16 bullet. Old fashioned lead bullets *were* very lethal because they were BIG (often .40 calibre or more), made of soft lead (dumdums in effect), and comparatively slow. Of course, it is possible to hit a victim with multiple bullets very fast, and that does dramatically affect survivability.

Bullets can and DO cause "minor wounds", typically by glancing off the victim (high speed can cause grazes to ricochet) or punching a minor hole through non-important tissue. Death rates form shootings run around 10% to 30% depending on how far away you are from medical care, and how long it takes you to receive care. Guns are NOT "Death rays", they are extremely dangerous though in the hands of a *trained* user...like any other device.
#16

thedarklord

May 03, 2004 23:15:00
Bows are better than guns? HAH (well maybe those single shot things, but anything after 1820 absolutely put the bow to shame, hence the reason the west was tamed).

I am trained in the use of both handguns and shoulder guns. I love to hunt big game using all kinds of guns. My only problem with the way the DMG has guns set up is the crappy rate of fire. Give someone a single action .45 colt and they can fire off 6 shots in six seconds after about the second time they shoot the weapon. Trained Gunsmen I have seen using a double action Colt .45 fired off 6 shots in less than 2 seconds.

An assault rifle, such as the AK-47, or the new Ak-?? which effectively fires twice for every pull of the trigger, and at full auto setting can fire off 4-600 rounds per minute, take that into six seconds and that’s roughly 40-60 shots in a round. That gets kind of ridiculous, you're bound to hit anything standing out in the open with no cover, probably more than once if your aim is even halfway decent.

As much as I love guns, their mechanics in D&D cause them to absolutely suck. I don't allow any guns in any campaign I run, because someone is going to want to explore the possibility of multiple shots by the same gun, resulting in the almighty Gatlin gun. If technology followed the same path as the real world. Unless someone found a decent system to incorporate the actual mechanics of a gun, I wouldn’t allow them.
#17

zombiegleemax

May 04, 2004 5:48:32
The ease of using firearms has been mentioned many times - the simple solution is to make firearms simple weapons. A feat will allow you to reduce reload time, which is horrible, but not by too much. Firearms will still be fire-and-forget weapons. Fire once, forget them for the rest of the standard D&D fight.

Another reason that firearms gained popularity was the fact that they "always" worked the same. By the midst of a campaign, what with starvation-level rations, cold and damp and so on, many longbowmen would be reduced to throwing rocks. Exposure would have reduced their strength to a level where they could not use their weapons properly. Firearms did not suffer from this problem.

Despite these advantages I don't think that firearms would catch on in a typical D&D world. The reason is simple - fireball. This spell, and similar fire-attacks makes it to dangerous to walk around with a powderhorn. It would turn any fighter into a suicide bomber waiting for the fireball to trigger him. Not good.

This problem is not insurmountable, of course. A fire-proof powder-horn would be possible as a wondrous item, but this would raise the cost of the equipment to the level where firearms could never replace your standard longbow for reasons of economy.
#18

zombiegleemax

May 05, 2004 3:29:42
According to Michielfl, a gun was used because it's easy use. But isn't a crossbow also easy to use (in real life but also in D&D it's a simple weapon)?

Silverwave lets guns ignore armor or natural armor because guns were armor-piercing, but aren't crossbow also feared for this quality? If you give the gun special abilities like ignoring armor, you should at least give it also to the crossbow and maybe a lesser version of this ability to the longbow.

Then, according to Sulaco, guns didn't really do that much damage, especially not when they were just invented (say 15th century Europe or something).

So why where guns ever invented? I know the Mongols used gunpowder (not guns, just grenades) because the Europeans had never seen this and feared it. They thought it were devils because they had the ability to 'summon' smoke and fire. Aside from that, it seems that you can better outfit an army of peasants with crossbows because a) both weapons are easy to use b) both weapons pierce armor c) crossbows are cheaper d) guns 'don't really do a lot of damage' as Sulaco says.
#19

NightScreamer20

May 05, 2004 14:01:59
I just use the basic Firearms from the Warcraft RPG game based around DnD 3.5 rules. Very effective, but no more dangerous than a normal weapon (except for range of course) and has a chance to 'break-down' on a natural 1.

It also includes Mortars, catapult bombs, emplaces bombs, and grenade bombs.
#20

pschirf

May 06, 2004 16:14:07
While I'm not a fan of mixing black-powder and magic, I think one of the better ways to deal with it in a D&D game is to do just that. If I were forced to do this I’d throw out gunpowder ignited by fire and replace it with magic ingredients, which can only be collected from the body-part of some fantasy creature. Dragons have a breath weapon. We’re told that there are glands that ignite the flame inside the dragon’s body. Perhaps the two chemicals that are mixed can also be used to power the equivalent of a musket. Thus, instead of combustion, the weapon would use two chemicals to cause the reaction. One could be a powder form, making a weapon like the muzzleloader viable. The second could be a liquid that would be used on a cloth, much like the matchlock’s wick.

Why would I do the above? Mostly to keep the supply low.

-+-

A hand gonne is the first personal firearm and was set off by a hand held match.
IMAGE(http://www.sca-isles.org/Articles/firearm/handgonn.gif)

A matchlock is a little less complex than a flintlock, but is far more dangerous. The steps to fire are roughly the same as the flintlock, but you have to concern yourself with the constantly burning wick while loading the weapon.

IMAGE(http://www.sca-isles.org/Articles/firearm/match.gif)

(1) Half-Set the hammer and close the frizzen in place over the pan.
(2) Pour a measure of gunpowder down the barrel. If you skip step (1) some of the barrel powder will leak out of the barrel through the pan hole and you'll not get the correct measure.
(3) Wrap a lead ball (the bullet) in a small piece of cloth or paper and (3.5) ram it down the barrel on top of the gunpowder. The bullet/cloth combination will have a nice, tight fit.
(4) open the frizzen and place a small amount of gunpowder in the flintlock's pan.
(5) Snap the frizzen in place over the pan.
(6) Fully Set the hammer.
(7) Pull the trigger to fire the gun.

For more details see:
http://people.howstuffworks.com/flintlock2.htm

IMAGE(http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/flintlock2.jpg)

The steps to load a flintlock are just as or more complex than a crossbow. The gun needs to be carried relatively level or some powder may leak out of the pan. This will result in a "dry fire" - where the flint has no pan powder to ignite. In fact, while the gun is carried loaded it's likely that the pan needs to be refreshed before any firing if a lot of movement is taking place.

The chance for the gun to actually fire isn't very high if any moisture reaches the pan powder. If even a little moisture reaches the powder you're likely to have a slow pan burn. This results in a hiss... a delay... then a POW! Holding the gun on target during this delay requires a great deal of training.

There is a fairly good chance that the pan will ignite but the powder inside the barrel will not. You get a flash and a hiss by no “bang”, hence, the expression “Flash in the pan.”

If the powder behind the ball leaks out through the pan hole the ball needs to be removed from the barrel using a special ball puller.
#21

zombiegleemax

May 07, 2004 1:27:53
Originally posted by TheDarkLord
As much as I love guns, their mechanics in D&D cause them to absolutely suck. I don't allow any guns in any campaign I run, because someone is going to want to explore the possibility of multiple shots by the same gun, resulting in the almighty Gatlin gun. If technology followed the same path as the real world. Unless someone found a decent system to incorporate the actual mechanics of a gun, I wouldn’t allow them.

Gatling guns are unlikely before smokeless powder is invented. Blackpowder gives of enormous clouds of smoke so, realistically, two or three shots should have the same effect as an obscuring mist (I think, 1st level spell) spell. In real-world combat, soldiers sometimes lined up in the enemy's formations because they couldn't see which side they were on.
#22

zombiegleemax

May 11, 2004 4:18:57
Interesting points brought up by all. The game mechanics have standard damage for weopons, but are modified by the weilder-most players have fighters with an 18 strength (or higher, depending on the munchkin factor) resulting in at least +4 on damage plus whatever else. The effects of a firearm in terms of damage are about the same regardless of who fires the weopon. Sam Colts .45 "equalizer" made everyone the same size. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading about the knights in heavy armor battering away at each other, victory went to whoever was STRONGER, not the more skilled fighter. Thus firearms gave the average peasant a fighting chance.
#23

zombiegleemax

May 11, 2004 18:56:49
http://www.geocities.com/congocuzko/TWT_Firearms_Basic.xls

The previous link is a list of basic, pre-industrial firearms I made for a campaign a while ago (copy-paste the link to download it. It is an Excel file, so you will need either that program or a viewer to see it). All weapons are divided by "mechanism" groups, that's it, the system each one uses to fire the bullet. The reason of this is that the different mechanisms had noticeable differences, mostly on what relates to the stability of the weapon, the strenght of the compression and several other factors. Furthermore, each step in the line of new mechanisms goes along with an improvement on the technology. So, for example, if you play a historic late medieval, then you would have access to only weapons under the Wick, Flash Pan and Matchlock groups, since they were the only firing mechanisms of the time. On the other hand, Percussion Cap system was avaliable after the 1800s. Here is a small guide for groups:

Wick: Circa 1400. Firing mechanism consist of a wick, that is introduced through a small hole into the barrel. The powder is located inside the barrel, behind the charge.

Flash Pan: Somewhere during the 1400s. The powder is placed in a small cup -flash pan-, that has a connection with the interior of the barrel. A wick would ignite the poweder in the cup, to then ignite the one in the interior. A much more reliable system, although useless under rain.

Matchlock: Mid 1400s. A wick, attached to a moving arm which, when the trigger was depressed, was brought down against the flash pan to ignite the powder. Note taht the flash pan only was exposed once the trigger was pressed, thus making it much more secure. It was a mayor imrpovement, since it was prone to much less failure.

Wheelock: 1517. The principle behind this mechanism is practically the same one found in today's lighters: A flint that is pressed against a roughened metal wheel, generates a spark, that ignites the powder inside a protected flash pan. Much more secure, reliable, powerful and has little chances of failing under rain.

Snaphaunce: 1570. Uses the same flint system, but instead of a spinning wheel it makes the flint strike a roughened metalic surface attached to a moving arm. When the trigger is pressed, the arm uncovers the flash pan and places the strike surface into position to send the spark in. Since the mechanisms are simpler and stronger, it fails much less than previous mechanisms.

Flintlock: 1612. Practically the same mechanism than the Snaphaunce, the main difference, and the key to the Flintlock's success, was the fact that the strike surface and the flash pan protector were made into one piece. This added simplicity, as well as the advances of the time, makes this system very safe and highly reliable.

Percussion Cap: 1805. A hammer strikes an explosive cap that contains fulminate of mercury. This ignites the fulminate that then travels into the barrel through a connection between the cap and the interior of the gun. This then ignites the powder inside the barrel. The cap almost never fails, making it a much more reliable system. Furthermore, since the powder no longer is exposed in a flash pan, rain has no effect on the weapon, also increasing the power of the compression.


Now, each newer mechanism brings several changes to the weapons, such as better damage, range and security. New weapon types, such as revolvers and repetition rifles, are only avaliable at certain types, since the better technologies allowed for those kind of weapons.

There are also a few extra notes for weapons:

Shoots: How many charges can hold a weapon before running out and requiring reload. Note that a weapon does not need to be fully realoaded to fire. Weapons that have listed numbers of shoots of 2 or more do not fire two times per attack. Instead, they may perfomr more attacks before needing a reload.

Reload: How long -in action terms- takes to reload each barrel of the weapon.

Failure: Everytime a weapon is fired, there is a chance for it to fail. The failing chance is listed on %. A failure only is considered if the attack was not succesful and and if the number roled on a d20 was of 8 or less. Both conditions must be meet in order to the attack be considered failure potential. After that, the DM rolls 1d100 and, if the value is equal or less than the given number, there is a failure. A failure automatically stucks the weapon, making it useless, until a full round action is spent to unstuck it. Also, any powder charge the barrel had is spent and must be reloaded -the bullet may be reused-. A Critical Miss -1 on a d20- forces to make the same 1d100 roll. However, if the result indicates failure, the weapon explodes, destroying the weapon and dealing 1d4 points of damage to the user from powder explosion. Note that the failure is calculated for each barrel, so a Double Revolver could still fire even if one of the barrels has become stuck. For exploding weapons, however, it is destroyed as whole -also, add 1 point of damage by powder explosion per every other loaded barrel in the firearm.
Special situations -such as rain, excesive moisture, etc- may increase the failure. This is left at the DMs call -in DC terms, think of each +1 on the dificulty as a +5% on failure chance. Any penalty over 30% indicates that the weapon can not be fired at all.

ACC Modifier: A few weapons, such as Arquebuses and Musquets, have a penalty to attack rolls no matter what. This is due to several factors, such as the polished barrel interiors, lack of weight balance, etc. This penalty is always aplyed to the weapon.


Note that there is no proficiency on Firearms to use these weapons, and there is were the main advantage of guns, since they require little trainning to be used -armor piercing depends on the bullet, not on the weapon. That is how I prefer to rule it for simple firearms, though, so anyone should feel free to houserule over that fact.

Additionally, there are certain items required in order to use weapons, while others may just become handy:

Powder: Needer for every weapon. Each barrel charge requires 1 ounce of powder. If it becomes wet, it can not be used.

Round Bullets: One bullet is consumed with each shoot of a barrel. Round bullets may ignore up to 1/3 x2 of the damage they inflict of armor -so, an attack that deals 6 points of damage ignores up to 4 points of armor.

Pointed Bullets: One bullet is consumed with each shoot of a barrel. Pointed Bullets may ignore an amount of armor points equal to the damage they deal -so, an attack that deals 6 points of damage ignores up to 6 points of armor.

Flat Bullets: One bullet is consumed with each shoot of a barrel. Flat Bullets do not ignore armor, but instead they aply Non-Lethal damage to the target. They roll damage as normal, however.

(note that bullets may be crafted from special materials to add extra properties. Flat Bullets, however, will deal Lethal damage if it's material adds damage, such as Cold Iron or Alchemical Silver Flat Bullets)

Short Loading Bar: Needed to load pistols and short-barrel weapons -one handed firearms are all treated as short-barreled.

Long Loading Bar: Needed to load long-barreled weapons -two haanded firearms listed here are all treated as long-barreled.

Aiming Support: This long bar is placed below a two-handed firearm in order to add a +1 circumstance bonus to the attack roll. Only two-handed firearms may be benefited by this.

Curver Butt: This is actually an upgrade of the weapon. It's longer, curved butt allows for the weapon to be firmly held with both the hand and the armpit, granting a +1 circumstance bonus to the attack roll. Two-handed firearms do not get any bonus, but instead are treated as opne-handed weapons. They can still be used with both hands, in any case. The bonus from an Aiming Support is not considered for two-handed firearms being used with only one hand. The main use of this enhancement is to allow the user to be able to fire the weapon when riding or in situations when he/she requires extra hands.


On a side note, as you can see there are no gp prices listed. I did this since during the campaign I made this list for never had the players reaching any store or place where they could sell or buy these things. I added the weapons through different ways. Feel free to place any gp cost you belive to be reasonable -as a little help, the prices for Pistol and Musket found on the DMG would fit for the equivalents found under the Matchlock group.
#24

zombiegleemax

May 13, 2004 13:46:42
Another consideration: are they legal IYCW? IIRC, crossbows, when they first came out were universally condemned by the powers that be. They were seen as inhumane as they could allow a peasant with little training (compared to the years of training bowmen, etc required) to take down a well-armored knight. It was seen as unfair: they still felt that knights should be innately superior to peasants in warfare. Much in the same way weapons of mass destruction are decried and seen as a pariah topic in current times, so too were crossbows - for a time. Eventually they came to be used more regularly. (Probably sense mercenaries/etc didn't seem to feel the same as rulers, and also since rulers didn't seem to care as much when crossbows were used on their enemies rather than their own troops.)

From that perspective, even if they had atrocious aim at anything beyond spitting distance, perhaps they would also be considered illegal contraband in some lands and looked down upon in others (as a dishonorable / non-honorable weapon).
#25

cindre2000

May 15, 2004 15:31:48
TheDarkLord-- A little something about the history of firearms...

Colt was issued his patent on the first revolver in 1836, well after 1820. Even then he actually went out of buisness due to lack of buyers, it was not untill the Spanish American War that he actually got good buisness.

Untill his gun made it to the west, the native americans were better off. A man an horse back had 3 shots till he had to reload. 2 pistols and a rifle. A native american on the other hand, did not have this problem when they used bows. Untill the colt revolver made it out west, the bow was superior due to rate of fire. However, the new speed that was added to guns as time progessed, practically eliminated all other means of death dealing.
#26

Tintagel

May 18, 2004 6:03:01
Ok. Here are the stats I use for my Ravenloft Campaign. They are based off of the excellent rules created by Kenneth S. Hood.

Black Powder Pistol
Weapon type: Exotic Weapon: Pistol
Light propellant, medium caliber
Cost: 250 gp
Accuracy: +0
Damage: 1d10
Critical: 18-20 (x2)
Range Increment: 30 ft
Penetration: 2
Recoil: 4
Rate of Fire: 1 shot (Full-Round reload)
Ammunition: 1 oz powder & 12 mm pellet (.45 inch)
Weight: 3 lb

Horse Pistol (Long pistol)
Weapon type: Exotic Weapon: Pistol
Light propellant, medium caliber
Cost: 350 gp
Accuracy: +0
Damage: 1d10+1
Critical: 18-20 (x2)
Range Increment: 50 ft
Penetration: 3
Recoil: 4
Rate of Fire: 1 shot (Full-Round reload)
Ammunition: 1 oz powder & 12 mm pellet (.45 inch)
Weight: 4 lb

Notes: The extended barrel length increases armor penetration, range, and damage (see Kenneth Hood’s discussions on barrel lengths). It also makes the gun harder to conceal, giving a –2 to such attempts.


Parthian Rapier (pistol grip)
Weapon type: Exotic Weapon: Pistol
Light propellant, medium caliber
Accuracy: +0
Damage: 1d10
Critical: 18-20 (x2)
Range Increment: 30 ft
Penetration: 2
Recoil: 4
Rate of Fire: 1 shot (Full-Round reload)
Ammunition: 1 oz powder & 12 mm pellet (.45 inch)
Weight: 5 lb

Notes: The Pistol part of a Parthian rapier is identical to the standard Black Powder Pistol.


Musket (Long rifle)
Weapon type: Exotic Weapon: Rifle
Light propellant, heavy caliber
Cost: 350 gp
Accuracy: +1
Damage: 1d12+4
Critical: 18-20 (x2)
Range Increment: 150 ft
Penetration: 5
Recoil: 3
Rate of Fire: 1 shot (2 Full-Rounds reload)
Ammunition: 2 oz powder & 16 mm pellet (.63 inch)
Weight: 10 lb

Notes: The Musket’s barrel length gives it better penetration and range, and less recoil (which also affects accuracy). However, its weight and length make it difficult to aim at quickly moving targets. At 15 feet or less, the accuracy drops to +0, and at 30-60 ft, it is only +1.
Notice that the Musket uses 2 oz of powder, and a different sized pellet.

Black Powder
Black powder comes in small horns that hold up to 1 lb of powder (16 oz). All pistols use 1 oz. of powder, and muskets use 2. Black powder costs roughly 2-5 gp per oz.

Misfires
Firearms have several unusual characteristics. First of all, they are subject to misfires. Modern tests have shown that primitive firearms probably misfired as often as once every four shots. While firearms in the D&D game do have chances of misfiring, they are not quite that bad.
• All guns naturally misfire on a 1 or a 2 if properly and carefully loaded.
• Masterwork guns reduce misfire chances by 1.
• Under wet or damp conditions, the misfire chance increases by 2. Note that no gun can fire if the powder is wet. Wet and damp conditions refer to the environment (Ex: just rained, lots of fog, things are clammy to the touch).

When a character’s attack roll falls in the misfire range, the DM should roll 2d6 and consult the following table:

2d6 Misfire Result
2–3 Explosion
4–7 Fouled barrel
8–12+ * Hang fire
* Wet conditions add 2 to the misfire roll

An explosion inflicts the gun’s damage on the character holding the gun, or ½ if a Reflex saving throw of DC 20 is successful. The gun is destroyed by the misfire. A fouled barrel ruins the shot and renders the gun useless until it is carefully cleaned—a process that will take a good 1d6 minutes (10-60 rounds). A hang fire goes off 1d3 rounds later than it should. If the user keeps the gun trained on its target, he can make a normal attack when it fires.

Armor Penetration
The second unusual characteristic of firearms is their ability to ignore armor. The Penetration number in the table is how much armor (natural or worn) is ignored at the first range increment. Penetration drops by 1 for each range category. Thus a horse pistol firing at a target 110 feet away would have a penetration of 1.

Accuracy
The bullet fired from a gun travels far faster than an arrow, sling stone, crossbow bolt, or hurled knife. In comparison to these weapons, it has less need to “lead” a target (i.e. aim in front of it) at long ranges. To all practical means, a bullet is invisible because of its speed and moves so fast as to be nigh impossible to dodge. Wind, rain, and other environmental effects do less to spoil its trajectory than in comparison to more primitive weapons. However, unlike conventional firearms, black powder guns were notoriously inaccurate. Thus, the accuracy bonuses are quite small. The Accuracy rating is the bonus to hit with the gun.

Rapid Reload Feat
Pistols may be reloaded as a move-equivalent, and muskets as 1 full-round action. However, the misfire chance is 2. This is cumulative with penalties for wet conditions, so a pistol that was reloaded using the feat would have a misfire chance of 1-4, and in wet conditions it would rise to 1-6.
#27

hesparex

May 18, 2004 22:38:31
A crossbow has more penetrating power than a longbow. It was easier to use. Once the French army modernized its tactics in the lull after Agincourt they crushed the English (eventually driving them from Calais). People want to usually ascribe victory to a weapon when in fact generally most victories went to those with better-trained armies. England dominated in the Seven Years War on the field of battle and not because of any inherent supremacy of "brown bess"
#28

ramses_iii

May 24, 2004 1:44:09
How easy are guns to use? Especially non-rifled, black powder muskets like you will find in a really high tech-level D&D world? Watch "The Last Samurai" which has a couple of scenes with untrained peasant conscripts trying to hit targets (in one) and fight samurai (in the other) and you can see that black powder muskets are NOT simple weapons. IMC firearms exist and are exotic weapons as listed in the DMG. I give crossbows and guns an effective Strength score of their own to simulate the damage both weapons are capable of doing. Other than that I use the rules as written. They suit the way i want guns to work in my game world. One player wanted to use guns and is complaining that they are underpowered, but they will remain an exotic weapon that takes a standard action to reload, because I think that best simulates the difficulty of loading and firing black powder weapons in a world where they are not familiar weapons to anyone unless that person has special training.
#29

zombiegleemax

May 24, 2004 7:30:04
Here is a lengthy but thorough article on the subject; most of what it says seems to check true against other military-historical sources I've read, though I suspect the author overestimates the penetrating power of the recurve composite bow a bit.

I'll give a short form of the overall conclusions, just in the case you're in a hurry. ;)

A good self-bow, preferably a composite recurve one but a wooden longbow will do in a pinch, is in the hands of a skilled and strong archer among the most powerful ranged weapons man has ever devised. The mechanical/chemical types (crossbow and firearms) beat it in sheer short-range battering power, being better armor-piercers, but in accurate range and rate of fire the self-bow is a clear winner. Firearms only truly superseded it with the advent of magazine-loading repeaters.

One issue is that the thing tires the archer pretty quickly, at least in an extended battle. This isn't much of a consideration for an average fantasy RPG fight, though.

Another consideration is the considerable amount of skill and physical conditioning required to master the weapon - the requirements of time and long-term effort not being well combinable with the realities of agriculture, for example. The English often had a bit of a problem making their peasantry practice as much as they should, whereas the professional hunters of the vast North and East European woodlands learned it "on the job." Similarly the mounted steppe nomads mastered the composite bow by necessity on the way of growing up.

Settled nations sometimes had their professional warriors train full-time in the use of the weapon, usually successfully but only rarely in great numbers.

Crossbows were easy to use and quite powerful enough, even if their accuracy especially at longer ranges leaves something to be desired. They were something of a perfect weapon for part-time soldiers such as urban militias and tougher peasants - becoming something of a national weapon from Italy to Switzerland and further. The Chinese apparently used their curious repeater-crossbow as a sort of "infantry machine gun" to counter the firepower of nomadic horse-archers, apparently fairly successfully.

Once the main design issues were resolved guns largely replaced the crossbows, especially in military use - they did almost everything the crossbow did, but better. Accuracy seems to have been a major problem, however, with fifty paces (50 meters or about 150') being considered a reasonably effective range for a competent user and beyond that little short of waste of effort.

Still, civilians kept using the cheaper and more ammunition-economical crossbow as a hunting weapon all the way until mid-1800s.


As for the respective armor-piercing abilities, it should be kept in mind that even the "international" harness of mail and quilted padding, used the world over for a very long time, made warriors annoyingly resistant to arrows (some Crusaders were looking like porcupines after a battle with the Turks and their composite bows, for example, but still quite alive and able to fight), that Italian full plate armor designs paid considerable attention to protecting the armpits etc. against crossbow bolts and that well-made steel breastplates were used for quite good effect by heavy cavalry units all the way until around 1850s. It was always possible to protect a warrior from the missiles; but whether the gains justified the expense and weight of the harness was another consideration, and already by 18th century most troops went completely unprotected.

As another note, the rate of fire of almost any decent Early Modern (ie. from around later 1500s onwards) artillery piece was substantially higher than what the infantry could achieve with their muskets; indeed, artillery batteries were often quite capable of defending themselves against infantry and cavalry alike with just a small detachment of musketeers for close defense.
#30

tzor

May 25, 2004 16:02:28
If you want to understand firearms and history you have to first understand that the most common use of bows, crossbows and rifles cannot be described in D&D terms. Generally speaking the rules are designed for one on one combat. In the real world, ranged weapons were fired in mass volleys at groups of targets. You might not hit your target, but you might hit the person next to you.

Given this understanding of how ranged weapons were used, we can look at the evolution of the ranged weapons and see how the rifle is a better weapon in this situation.

While bows are accurate, in mass formations they generally rained down arrows at their targets. Accuracy isn’t important, and damage is average. It’s quantity that is the factor here. It is also difficult to get the real long ranges with the simple longbows.

Crossbows are linear and exceptionally accurate. They are a pain to load but require no training. Of course in mass formations accuracy isn’t always that important.

Rifles, up to the 18th century was exceptionally inaccurate. But they were more damaging, and against formations, accuracy isn’t all that important. They also have the additional benefit of providing cover since after a few rounds the smoke gets really thick. (Then again, accuracy isn’t important in formations, but if you can duck and sneak away they might not realize that.) The 18th century hunting rifle was the first weapon that might be as accurate short distances as a bow, but until the rifled rifle was invented guns were simply not very accurate.

Rifles even up to the 19th century weren’t very reliable either. A rifle recovered in a Civil War battle site had 10 loads inside. Apparently the rifle misfired and in the noise and fog of battle the wielder never noticed, reloaded the gun nine more times trying to fire the weapon, and failing each time, before he dropped the weapon or was shot. Until you get to the point of bullets with powder filled casings and primers, misfires are always possible. And until you get to the rifled bullet, the damage caused by the bullet did significantly reduce with distance. (Of course damage as understood in the real world is a whole lot different from the D&D term.)

Rifles of the 19th century were more wounding machines than killing machines. People on the battlefield died from their wounds, others had to be amputated or they would have died from the complications of the wounds, mostly gangrene. This too is exceptionally hard to put into D&D terms.

The point of this is that the DMG reference to firearms has a weapon is probably far too accurate for even 18th century weapons (although probably good for 19th century) and does not reflect the problems in terms of the damage potential of the weapon, being probably too little at close range, and far too much at long range.

In the real world, it is probably not enough inaccuracy to loose sleep over, given the normally abstract combat system of d20. If you want to loose sleep, I would suggest lowering the range of the weapons, and perhaps to make the weapon nasty at point blank range adding a non magical wounding (-1 to con) effect. Perhaps you could have the weapon misfire on a natural 1 requiring an additional round to clean the weapon before reloading.
#31

zombiegleemax

May 27, 2004 15:38:12
Umm... just for the record, even firearms could be fairly accurate in the right hands. After all, they replaced the crossbow as a hunting weapon very widely - and hunters aren't big about missing the target - and "sharpshooters" were a real battlefield threat as early as in the 1500s.

The thing is, especially later on the average conscripted line trooper had only the most rudimentary marksmanship training, in most cases being essentially conditioned to be an automaton that carried out orders to the letter posthaste and not really much else; and further during the actual battle he was more often than not practically wetting his pants and might very well be shooting with his eyes closed, partly also so the flash of the priming powder didn't burn them...

Small wonder many a soldier actually got shot by the man standing *behind* him. Still, those firing lines could wreak horrible carnage upon each other and the loose-order skirmishers were quite adept at picking out individual officers, standard-bearers and other such relatively small targets (it helped that they actually aimed instead of just pointing the gun in the general direction).

It's a safe bet PCs will be keeping a rather cooler head overall and be substantially better shots than the hapless gaudily dressed line troopers of Early Modern armies; that's why they're the heroes, after all... :D

Anyway, people also shoot differently when they're trying to pick out a lone foeman with a bow from when they're just pouring arrows into the massed ranks of the foes on battlefield, and the rules of D&D deal primarily with the former situation.
#32

tzor

May 27, 2004 21:26:34
Accuracy: The first thing we need to understand is hunting accuracy, without looking into the age of modern rifles; the best comparison is that of bow hunting. Even with modern bow hunting, distances are not particularly great. “The average whitetail hunter takes shots from 10 to 30 yards – 20 yards is about average (1) .” Even using short bow ranges this is the first increment of the weapon.

Fortunately, colonial hunting rifles were designed for longer distances. “The long rifle was the weapon for the frontier. Its long range allowed hunters to take large game, such as deer and elk, at a distance. A marksman could hit targets at two hundred yards. Powder and shot were short on the frontier, and long rifles let hunters get food with one round, reducing the ammunition they needed to buy and to carry (2)
.” Under the 50-yard range of the DMG musket this is within the fourth increment (-6 to hit).

But, and this is an important but, the hunting rifle was not the original choice of weapon on the battlefield. I don’t have a good quote for military smooth bore weapons, but here is a good one that talks about the differences, “The rifle was an unknown quantity to most of the population. Striking a mark at distances two or three times as far as a smoothbore musket provoked awe in the onlookers. Word of this new capability spread quickly by word of mouth, letters and newspapers. The news carried to England as well. The shortcomings of the rifle, slow loading, quick to foul, non-standard ball size, and no bayonet were not realized at this time. For now the only thing that was touted was the ability, often grossly exaggerated, of increasing the effective range of a weapon from "whites of their eyes" distance to several hundred yards (3) .”

Another web page gives a maximum limit to the smooth bore muskets of the 18th century, “The musket fired a round ball (called a musket ball) that was about the size of a small marble. It was a relatively inaccurate weapon, especially at distances over 200 feet (4) .”

Of course that description is hard to put into a D&D term. What is relatively inaccurate? I would suggest that this would imply at least a -6 to hit perhaps a -10 (the 6th increment). But even for the Renaissance pistol 200’ is only the fourth increment (-6 to hit). At the 150’ rifle distance it barely gets a -2 to the “to hit” roll.

Thus the notion of accuracy in even colonial firearms is only true of the new technology of the long rifle barrels. Otherwise, they were exceptionally inaccurate, with a clear night and day difference. Although being superior in accuracy, the advanced weapons weren’t always that easy to use on the fog of war battlefield. Alone hunting a single animal, they were just right.
#33

brianmc223

May 29, 2004 11:50:00
Intercity people who under D&D mechanics wouldn’t even be called proficient do a large percentage of shootings in the U.S. Modern weapons do more damage than anything a sword can hope to achieve. More archaic firearms the gap is narrower, but the gun still comes out on top.

Force=mass X velocity

A .50 caliber bullet weighs roughly an ounce. It travels roughly 1700 fps so that comes out to be 1700ounces of force, or about 106lbs. A sword (one handed) weighs a maximum of 3 pounds, and moves at what? 20fps? 30fps? Certainly not more. So, 90lbs.

The gun comes out on top, and I'm being generous to the sword.
#34

loopy

May 31, 2004 19:03:40
In my campaign, firearms are allowed to be carried only by a certain small number of individuals to whom the weapons are handed down from father to son and mother to daughter. Anyone with any honor does well to notify the Gunslinger chapter houses if they see a stranger who is obviously not one of that rare breed carrying a firearm. Trust me... they don't last very long.
#35

zombiegleemax

Jun 01, 2004 23:27:28
Firearms are vastly more deadly than swords and bows, even axes.

If wearing modern armor that can stop a 7.62x39 round like the ak47 uses, the blow may well still crush ribs and crack your sternum despite the lack of penetration.

And even if it doesn't go through, your going to feel as if you were on the receiving end of a jousting match were the opponent was on a motorcycle going about 120 mph.

A bullet generally does such horrendous bruising damage on the tissue it passes through that the meat near the wound path is inedible, in the case of hunting game.

Even the modest 22 caliber bullets, passing through your forearm from wrist to elbow, is far more damage than being stabbed with a sword in a similar fashion.

Your looking at some missing and crushed bones at a minimum, before we start talking about severed nerves and veins and such, not to mention the shock, the sheer force transfer, tends to kill the tissue along the bullet path.

Even the stoutest sword swinger can't come close to generating the amount of energy transferred to the tissue.

Now consider the displacement, as the bullet begins to flatten, mushroom, fragment and mangle, often creating a multi-wound from a single strike, and also bullets entering flesh sometimes travel strange paths.

I saw a man take a 38 slug in the shin; it came out his upper thigh (parts of it anyway) and entered his lower forearm, exiting near the shoulder.

Lets see a single sword thrust do that much collective damage.

I had an older (and some would say wilder) cousin, dead now, who was shot by a 22 semi auto (browning, nice gun, i have one) in his right side just below the ribcage.

He was drunk, twirling his gun and it went off (The firearms safety rules were ignored and tragedy resulted).

The result was that the bullet entered, bounced around a few times, and exited, lodging itself in his right shoulder.

He had damage to multiple organs including the liver, which itself was nearly sheared in twain.

There isn’t much of a damage comparison to be had. If I stab the first 4 inches of a sword into your shoulder, from front to back, it will hurt, granted, and may sever an artery or some such.

But to take a 30.06 round in the same spot, especially a soft nosed lead bullet or god forbid a hollow point, you might not have a functioning heart or lungs left.

The arm may well be nearly severed, and will probably have to be amputated. It depends more on the ammo used than anything else.

For example, full metal jackets are more humane, they tend to not fragment as easily and hold together for penetration purposes, and don’t change course when entering flesh as easily.

The advantage is that you can rely on them to go through the car door your hiding behind to strike you with a bit of lessened force than a direct hit, where other rounds might not fully penetrate or might come out the other side only as fragments, or might change course before exiting to miss entirely.

By far the most damaging to bare flesh is straight lead, it’s soft and changes shape, tending to mushroom, displacing and damaging flesh more readily, not to mention lead is poisonous.

Hollow points are designed to fragment, usually very violently, and if this happens after it enters you but before it exits...I shudder.

A mini grenade just went off in your chest. In fact, lets say your 3 feet from a concrete wall when I start slinging hollow points your way. I miss, hitting the wall above and behind your head, as these rounds fragment, you will be catching bullet fragments in your rear. It only takes one tiny hole through the head, heart, lungs, spine etc to ruin your day.

But I suppose all this grim reality has no place in a role-playing game. And that would have to be the point.

My neighbor was shot in the abdomen with a 357 magnum, the round was copper jacketed. It created a nice straight hole through him, the chair, the stereo, the wall and finally came to rest in the embankment outside.

When recovered it was hardly mangled at all. Had it been lead or a hollow point, he wouldn’t be with us today.

And that’s my 2 copper here.

#36

tzarevitch

Jun 03, 2004 13:12:03
You are talking about Civil War era weapons. The difficulty comes the reloading process not with the aiming and firing. Even the reloading is not terribly difficult; it is just slow unless you are trained to do it quickly. Personally, I think a standard action to reload is being very generous. I use 2 full rounds for reload time for those weapons in my game.

Tzarevitch
#37

zombiegleemax

Jun 10, 2004 20:57:12
Balls of lead aren't as fast as lightning bolts, and those can still 'only scratch' some PC's.
#38

zombiegleemax

Jun 16, 2004 9:46:54
I see from many of the replies on this thread that The Myth of the Gun is alive and well and comfortably snuggling on the couch with it's mate The Myth of the Katana for a night of feeling absolutely superior to everything else in creation.

In truth, very little of this real-world stuff, whether factual or fantastic, really matters. All that matters to the topic at hand is how guns can be successfully integrated into D&D. The key to successfully integrating guns into D&D is to make them neither grossly inferior nor utterly superior to existing ranged weapons but rather to make them unique and different enough to justify their inclusion as more than just bows that go bang.

To that end I propose the following. This is all off the top of my head (and some has been mentioned already) and I don't have the rules at hand so it will doubtless require tweaking, but it is a start. All of this assumes pre-breech loading firearms.


Range
This is not merely a function of how far a weapon can throw a projectile but also how effectively it can do so as well. Therefore, while a firearm may be able to hurl a hunk of lead quite a distance this must be tempered with the fact that, prior to rifling, they just aren't very accurate.

Thus the range should be substantially less than a bow, perhaps equal to a crossbow. Also, like a crossbow, firearms should be slow to load and fire.


Damage
To add a unique element they should deliver damage differently. Thus I propose that firearms be treated as ranged touch attacks.

To compensate for this, Proof should be added as an option that one can have, like Masterwork, built in to a piece of armor. Proof armor functions normally against firearms damage.


Criticals
Bullets can do very funny things when they hit bodies. They can bounce around inside and come out the opposite direction they went in, or they can pass right through a muscle and out the other side, causing very little damage at all.

To represent this, firearms should have no enhanced critical threat range but should have a high critical damage multiplier.


Ammunition
Lead makes very good ammunition cos it is cheap, plentiful, easy to work with, reusable, and deforms nicely when it hits. There seems little reasons to assume that these factors would not apply in a fantasy setting and so the assumption that firearms, as a default, fire lead shot.

This does not mean that this is the only option however, given both the inventiveness of a number of species and the expanded number of fantasy or magical materials to choose from, and the DM should explore other options for fantasy ammunition from Elven Quicksilver shot to Dwarves firing scraps of chainmail from Blunderbuss.


Other
There are a number of additional options which can expand on the place of firearms in a fantasy world. For example, it became common in the Renaissance for combine firearms with other weapons, so that once the shot was done the wielder was not left unarmed.

It seems quite likely that the idea would be a popular option in a fantasy world with Dwarves armed with Gunaxes, Elven rapiers with pistols in the grip, Orcich Maulcannons, etc...
#39

worldconquerer

Jun 24, 2004 17:52:16
Dragon 321 has a great article about guns in it. Check it out.
#40

zombiegleemax

Jun 28, 2004 5:23:52
Huh. Just out of my head I'd throw up the following stats for Renaissance to Early Modern guns, which would likely be the ones that most D&D games that include guns (without wandering to the field of D20 Modern) would have.

At this point rifling was still virtually unheard-of, and as it seems to have taken a degree of skill and familiarity to reliably hit anything beyond ten meters (with the long-arms) I'd say Martial proficiency is required. And I'm not particularly familiar with the 3.5 weapon-size rules, so someone else has to fill in those with common sense.

A degree of decent rifling is available, adding a 15' to long-arm RI but also 2 turns of reload time and about 400 GP to the cost (modifications to the barrel are obviously not affected by the nature of the firing mechanism, at least as far as price is concerned). Some muzzle velocity is also lost, but not to the degree that D&D would be concerned with it. All things considered it'd be a waste of time and money to rifle pistols of this period.

As a side note, pistols were commonly employed at point-blank ranges (up to sticking the barrel right against the other guy) successfully - I'd personally rule that pistols, whether crossbow or gunpowder, can be fired in close combat without provoking AoOs to represent their "handiness" (and make the gunpowder pistols competitive with the only slightly larger but longer-ranged carbines).

Given the method the cavalry employed their wheellock pistols I'd also say it'd be fair to allow the Quickdraw Feat to be used to return the empty gun into a saddle holster as a Free Action.


Matchlock musket: 2D10 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, range increment 20', 9 lbs, 100 GP.
The use of a bracing "fork" or other support (rock, fallen tree, whatever) - Move-equivalent action to set up and aim - adds 10' to RI.
Four Full-Round Actions to reload, though Rapid Reload removes one.
If you wish to account for the firearms' famous armor-piercing ability, this type of gun ignores 2 points of Armor, Shield, Cover or Natural AC bonus. It's good, but far from certainly penetrating.

This would be the basic musketeers' gun, used en masse on the field and probably also by civilians for hunting. Simple, sturdy and pretty reliable, though the burning slowmatch cord (rope soaked in saltpeter or similar) is sensitive to weather and generally a pain in the butt - horses don't like it (-4 to Riding rolls whenever the rider has a lighted match), and it makes you easy to notice in the dark much like a lighted cigarette would. Wandering around amounts of exposed gunpowder is also highly discouraged for safety reasons. In a pinch can be used as a two-handed mace of shorts - Simple/D8/x2.


"Spanish" musket: 3D10 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, RI 20', 20 lbs, 150 GP.
The use of "fork" is mandatory for a Medium-sized creature, but adds 10' as usual. If fork or other brace isn't used RI drops to 5' - firing these monsters from the hip is basically Not Done for even big and strong humans.
4 Full-Round Actions to reload, Rapid Reload removes one.
Strength score of at least 16 is required for safe handling of these things.
If "armor piercing" rules are used, this ignores up to 4 points.

This is the big brother of the previous gun, a twenty-pound armor-smashing monster hand-cannon the Spanish developed (and many others used) and only the biggest and strongest gunners used. Aside from its size it is identical to the standard matchlock in all respects, though if used as a club gives a -2 penalty for clumsiness and weight but damage die rises to D10/x2/Bludgeoning. While the ball is substantially heavier than that of a regular musket the recoil is also punitive, hence practical accuracy is the same.
Large critters would probably use this as the standard shoulder-arm, with their "Spanish muskets" in practice being small artillery pieces.
The sort of small-bore cannon used as light "railing pieces" in ships and fortifications would probably be equivalent to braced ones in statistics.


"Sniper" musket: 2D10 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, RI 30', 12lbs, 150 GP.
Bracing is virtually mandatory, as RI drops to 10' otherwise. Bracing gives the usual 10' RI bonus.
6 Full-round Actions to reload, Rapid Reload removes one.
2 points of armor-piercing.

A very long-barreled matchlock musket particularly useful in sieges and the like for its accuracy. However, the length makes it inconvenient to reload and transport, nevermind maneuver in obstructed spaces (GM's call). If used as a melee weapon treat it as a D8/x2 club with -2 penalty.

...to be continued...
#41

zombiegleemax

Jun 28, 2004 5:28:34
*******

Wheellock rifle: 2D10 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, RI 20', 11 lbs, 300 GP.
Bracing is optional, but adds 10' as normal.
Basic time to reload the gun itself is 4 turns, reduced as normal, but rewinding the wheellock takes an additional 2 turns (though Rapid Reload halves this).
2 points of armor-piercing.

Not a common device, most commonly encountered as a luxury hunting piece (in which case it is often also rifled and probably MW to boot - when you're rich you *are* rich) but perfectly feasible nonetheless. Average-caliber musket with a wheellock firing mechanism. 'Nuff said. Simple/D8/x2 Bludgeoning if used as a club.


Light hunting piece: 2D8 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, RI 25', 8lbs, 350 GP.
Bracing is optional, but adds 10' as normal.
Basic time to reload the gun itself is 4 turns, reduced as normal, but rewinding the wheellock takes an additional 2 turns (though Rapid Reload halves this).
2 points of armor-piercing.

A rifled piece of smaller-than-average caliber, hence less recoil and better accurate range, mostly carried by nobility and other rich men (even on the battlefield) but also sometimes issued to special "sharpshooter" units who use them to pick out enemy officers, standard-bearers and the like. The private kind is often MW and richly ornamented. Acts as a standard Simple D8/x2 club in a pinch.

Even smaller bores are also used for even less recoil, raising RI to 45', dropping base damage die to a paltry 2D6 and weight to 7 lbs.
Many of these were made without a stock you could brace against your shoulder and thus had to be fired "from the hip", period, which merely serves to drop the range to 35'. There's no particular function in this, save showing off your mad shooting skillz when (if) you can score hits without "unsporting" aids.
Sometimes the firing mechanism was built outside the frame of the weapon - normal wheellocks with internal mechanism have a characteristic "bulge" just before the trigger - which makes the gun rather slimmer, prettier and lighter (6 lbs) but also much more suspect to dirt, weather etc. GM's call if this affects the reliability (as in, "won't work after two days out in the woods"), but on the plus side the mechanism is easily accessible for repairs...
In any case the light small-caliber pieces only do a D6/x2 damage while still requiring two hands to wield when used as a club. GMs are encouraged to wreck the guns of any morons who insist on using the external-mechanism type for close combat, though.


Wheellock pistol: 2D6 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, RI 5', 4 lbs, 200 GP.
Bracing isn't really possible, but holding the weapon with two hands or resting on something solid adds 5' to range.
Basic time to reload the gun itself is 3 turns, reduced as normal, but rewinding the wheellock takes an additional 2 turns (though Rapid Reload halves this).
1 point of armor-piercing.

The weapon that changed the face of cavalry. Accurate range was abyssal, it usually being reckoned to be pointless to shoot at a target over ten meters (30') away, but it was fairly small (about 1' long), light and more to the point didn't occupy hands the way a lance did when not in use.

Given the short range and long reload times everyone who could carried more than one of these, and they tended to be made so that they served as decent one-handed clubs in melee - it'd probably be best to treat them as Light Maces in this role.

It is also possible to build these into melee weapons, axes being the most popular ("sword-pistols" are really more of a flintlock thing, for reasons of balance and weight). In this case range stays the same - it's not like it can get worse - the total cost of the modification is the same as Masterworking the melee weapon, ie. 300 GP (most of these weapons were *also* MW and decorated to Hell and back, but that's not really relevant). For purposes of enchantment etc. the two weapons are treated as wholly separate entities, the axe (or whatever) just happening to have a gun built into it.


Wheellock carbine: 2D8 dam, 19-20/x3 crit, Bludgeoning, RI 15', 9 lbs, 200 GP.
Bracing is optional and in its intented role rarely possible, but adds 10' as normal.
Basic time to reload the gun itself is 4 turns, reduced as normal, but rewinding the wheellock takes an additional 2 turns (though Rapid Reload halves this).
2 point of armor-piercing.

A short-barreled musket carried by light cavalrymen, usually on a leather bandolier so it can be freely dropped to free the hands (Free Action to do so) in which case it normally hangs diagonally across the lower back with the barrel pointing to the ground. About three feet in length is typical. Other than the issues with the match and no need to rewind the wheel a matchlock carbine would be identical, save cheaper and lighter (100 GP and 7 lbs).

As a club requires two hands and does D6/x2 Bludgeoning.
#42

arochanox

Jun 29, 2004 11:13:31
Based on the latest post, which is nearest to my opinion, I suggest the following statistics for firearms

simple weapons:
pistol_______1d8___x3______30ft (usable in one hand)
rifle________1d10__x4______50ft
h. crossbow_1d10__19-20x2__120ft

martial (exotic?) weapons:
blunderbuss_3d6___x2______50ft line; ref DC=attack roll for half

reload times:
pistol and rifle: 3 rounds; 2 rounds if rapid reload feat
blunderbuss: 1 minute

pistol and rifle should have prices near the crossbows and blunderbuss should have price equal to lightning bolt scroll of 3th caster level (shorter range but no energy damage): 225gp
#43

zombiegleemax

Jul 14, 2004 20:46:20
A firearm system I’m experimenting with is similar to the percentile damage system, but less lethal. The only problem (so far) is the fact you need a wound Point system similar to star wars RPG or the expansion in UA. Anyway here its is: when you fire a firearm. You also roll a D% (in addition the attack roll) if the D% roll is equal or lesser then the guns "deadly hit" stat (typically 15-25%), then the attack roll (assuming you hit) is treated as a critical hit (so you still need to make a confirmation roll to deal wound point damage.) Any comments?
#44

zombiegleemax

Oct 02, 2004 22:40:01
An assault rifle, such as the AK-47, or the new Ak-?? which effectively fires twice for every pull of the trigger, and at full auto setting can fire off 4-600 rounds per minute, take that into six seconds and that’s roughly 40-60 shots in a round. That gets kind of ridiculous, you're bound to hit anything standing out in the open with no cover, probably more than once if your aim is even halfway decent.

ak-74 fires 5.56 instead of 7.62 shots. It has replaced the ak-47 as the standard issue rifle in the Russian army. 600 rpm, not counting reload time, waste a clip in 3 seconds (impossible to do accurately) any shot after a 3 round burst is wildly inaccurate.
#45

zombiegleemax

Oct 05, 2004 16:05:51
I decided that firearms would backfire on natural attack rolls of 1, and they would misfire on 2-3. Backfiring does d6 damage to the wielder, and the gun is ruined, repairs costing 1/2 the price of the gun.

If a bullet backfired, it would do way way way more than a d6 if I know anything. Unless they are just holding it down near their kidneys, that bullet would back fire either in their face or shoot a lot (D10 at least) of explosion in said face. The bullet, in my book would deal a x4 crit and 2d12 of damage.
#46

zombiegleemax

Oct 06, 2004 11:42:44
If a bullet backfired, it would do way way way more than a d6 if I know anything. Unless they are just holding it down near their kidneys, that bullet would back fire either in their face or shoot a lot (D10 at least) of explosion in said face. The bullet, in my book would deal a x4 crit and 2d12 of damage.

Are you seriously suggesting that there should be the potential for the wielder to take up to 96 pts of damage every 20th time he fires his weapon? I am normally loathe to say this but that is just bloody stupid.

Listen folks, you need to get over this idea that guns firearms are somehow the Wrath of God in man-portable form. They should most certainly not have the potential to kill any character, regardless of level, outright and a 1 in 20 backfire chance should most certainly not do enough damage to obliterate the entire population of a small village.

Firearms are just another weapon - better in some ways, worse in others - particularly in the abstract D&D combat system. Can we get over this obsession with making firearms death incarnate and get back to some useful and sensible discussion on the topic?
#47

tzor

Oct 09, 2004 18:56:35
I agree with Sulaco. I think most people place way too much importance on exaggerated tales and legends of firearms. Yes it is true that firearms could kill a person. It is also true that the average 1st level warrior has 5 hit points, so most things can kill a person.

There is much to be said for taking the time to do some research on the history of firearms from the earliest weapons (the hand cannon) to the Renaissance and even through the colonial period right up to 19th century or even modern times. One good example of such noteworthy research was by Ed Greenwood in the April 1982 edition of Dragon. (Note his article also dealt with canons.) Ed indicated that “The first real gun was a large bottle-shaped iron pot that fired an enormous crossbow bolt when powder in its bottom pot was ignited. Such weapons were known as ‘Pots de Fer,’ and were made as early as 1327 in England. Ed Greenwood also produced a supplementary article in February 1983. It is ironic to note that the 1E AD&D damage of the “Early Flintlock Musket” of 3d4 is remarkably similar to the 3.5E D&D’s 1d12 damage of the musket.

Early muskets and canons had the occasional tendency to explode, because of the crudeness of the ability to forge a barrel. It should also be noted that magic, special weapons materials, and advanced techniques weren’t available to them while they are the very staple of any fantasy world. Of course in the real world weapons often broke in combat outside of deliberate sunder attempts. I would suggest that exploding firearms are more trouble than they are worth.

On the other hand, misfires were exceptionally common. Having the weapon misfire on either a natural 1 or even having earlier weapons misfire on a natural 1 or a natural 2 would not be overly complex and add an air of uncertainty, like having a wizard wear armor that causes his spells to occasionally fail.

One could go into great lengths on the loading times of such weapons, but in the end one really has to wonder if it is worth all the effort. Greenwood’s 1E muskets had a “rate of fire” of 1/2, meaning in 3E terms that it would have taken a full turn to load. And of course the 1E round is one minute. The 3.5E musket takes a standard action and has a similar effect, more or less. (One shot every other round, although the 3.5E round is now 6 seconds, not 60.)

I think a better exercise is to expand in a 3.5E manner the basic renaissance firearm into the range of renaissance canons, ribalds, and bombards. Likewise the simple rules for expanding weapons for larger creatures can be used for great effect. A giant’s musket is a fearsome weapon indeed!