Giving Racial HD to all LA creatures? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Giving Racial HD to all LA creatures?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mikal
Dec 12, 2004 3:34:15 Back in the old days of AD&D, we had the base races, and it was considered good. No one wanted to play a monster! At least, that's what the designers thought at the time. However, many groups wanted to have a little taste of the exotic, and started bringing in monsters to play as characters.

But how were they do help make them balanced verses their less powerful counterparts? Many groups had different ways, such as just letting them be completely the same as they are in the MM, no changes, and let them be first level characters. Some let the monsters HD become levels, and have them start as classes from there. And so on and so forth. Like many things in those days, everyone had a house rule, and very often those house rules did not work well with each other.

Along comes third edition, with its concept of a monster as a character race! Long story short, the stronger the race, the less number of levels a class you can have. While this is a much better system then what was used before, it still has a huge flaw: players who chose to play as LA characters will usually never be as strong as those who play a base class. With the loss of skills, feats, HD, BaB -- in short, all class abilities, an LA'ed character is one who, while having better stats or some special ability, but never matches the true power of the rest of his group. More obviously seen in lower leveled games, the lack of these features often means the LA character will meet a short and gruesome demise, thus actually skewing the game in favor of the so-called 'weaker' races, such as humans, dwarves, etc.

So, I propose this: give ALL LA characters racial HD as per their type. While this gives them a little more power, it also gives them the chance to actually survive and be viable throughout their adventuring career. While they gain these abilities, they don't gain true class levels, thus actually making them equal to a base class. A Half Dragon Fighter 3 might have more strength and constitution, among other things, but his BaB would only be a +4, compared to a Fighters +6, as well as the fact that the Fighter would have access to his fighter feats. A Half Dragon Rogue would lose out on lots of skills and sneak attack damage, a half dragon caster on his spells. Consider the possibilities. This rule change could actually allow LA PC's have a fighting chance.
#2
loopy
Feb 16, 2005 22:05:42 There is always a way to break a monster character. Both of the monster characters in my campaigns have been complete horrors. One is an Astral Deva who took medium armor proficiency and the other was a Troll Fighter. These characters kill all.
#3
korimyr_the_rat
Feb 17, 2005 1:20:06 I personally think that allowing them the option to buy back those levels with XP (as in Unearthed Arcana) makes Level Adjustments far less painful-- and since I run my games using the Gestalt variant, I typically lower LAs a little bit.

Using the normal rules, racial HD levels are actually more painful than LA, because they interfere with getting your class skills and still impact your spellcasting. Racial hit dice also tend to have poor saving throws and Base Attack progression and low hit dice. They do very little to help frontline characters keep up with their less exotic peers.
#4
vharuck
Feb 17, 2005 13:11:15 However, each HD counts as 1 towards that character's Effective Character Level (ECL). If you increase or add HD, the disparity between the character's HD and ECL will remain the same.
#5
crashy75
Feb 21, 2005 14:36:32
However, each HD counts as 1 towards that character's Effective Character Level (ECL). If you increase or add HD, the disparity between the character's HD and ECL will remain the same.

I think he's proposing to not add HD to LA for ECL but instead combine them... For example, a humanoid with a +1 LA would receive 1d8HD (for free). I've been experimenting with this type of system, but the thing that irks me is that (for example) dragons would get d12s while aberrations would get d8s. Definitely broken as is.
#6
mikal
Feb 21, 2005 19:39:49
I think he's proposing to not add HD to LA for ECL but instead combine them... For example, a humanoid with a +1 LA would receive 1d8HD (for free). I've been experimenting with this type of system, but the thing that irks me is that (for example) dragons would get d12s while aberrations would get d8s. Definitely broken as is.

Yes, that was what I meant, just giving HD for those who have LA w/o actual HD, to help out LA races when they come into battle for PCs.
#7
Xeviat-DM
Feb 21, 2005 22:55:10 I've tried to keep all LAs below 2 in my campaign for the races I've created. I've also tried to not have a monster's LA exceed their racial HD. I have a set of anthromorphs who all have 2 humanoid HD, and no level adjustments. While they do have exotic abilities, such as flight, scent, blindsense, or natural weapons, they also have to deal with inferior HD (cleric HD with worse skill sets and worse saves basically) and their racial abilities are weighed against the racial abilities of standard characters plus two levels worth of class abilities.

There's no much you can do about the monsters in the MM without overhauling them completely, but you can do your best to not start with a problem.
#8
vintar
Feb 21, 2005 23:19:56 I think that when it comes down to it there is no easy formula to make racial progressions instead of LA. It could be similar to savage species - but without loss of HD. Or at least special rules so that levels without HD still count as gaining a level as far as skill points/feats/spells such as blasphemy (based on HD) are concerned.

There was a thread a couple months back that delved into just this though it eventually faded after everyone agreed that each race would have to be treated individually. A couple were posted and critiqued, but in the end we decided that it was for each individual group to decide the progressions for races they allowed instead of having to make up a progression for each and every possible playable race.
#9
Gemstone
Feb 22, 2005 9:25:34 When I play a monster character, I usually remove racial HD, since it changes ECL and thus takes longer to gain a level... or am I WAY off?
#10
gilean_dup
Feb 23, 2005 10:00:38 Every LA equals about 2-3 HD. 2 for humanoids, 3 for dragons and outsiders. I prefer around 2,5 for magical beasts and monstrous humanoids.
Putting 1 HD = 1 LA would overpower monster characters, some at least.

Gemberry, you are WAY off.
#11
zombiegleemax
Mar 07, 2005 2:30:17 The system that worked very well in our games was that for each LA that the character had it would have a -# to all hit, checks, and saves. but when ever the character gained enough XP for a normal character to gain a level, the penalties would be reduced by one and they would receive a HD from whatever class they had chosen. A half dragon can still do damage like a monster but since he is still getting used to his powers it would be harder for him to harness any abilities properly. It keeps a character with a LA of like 3 from being broken like a twig but would still be an effective member until their levels were "paid for."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mikal Dec 12, 2004 3:34:15	Back in the old days of AD&D, we had the base races, and it was considered good. No one wanted to play a monster! At least, that's what the designers thought at the time. However, many groups wanted to have a little taste of the exotic, and started bringing in monsters to play as characters. But how were they do help make them balanced verses their less powerful counterparts? Many groups had different ways, such as just letting them be completely the same as they are in the MM, no changes, and let them be first level characters. Some let the monsters HD become levels, and have them start as classes from there. And so on and so forth. Like many things in those days, everyone had a house rule, and very often those house rules did not work well with each other. Along comes third edition, with its concept of a monster as a character race! Long story short, the stronger the race, the less number of levels a class you can have. While this is a much better system then what was used before, it still has a huge flaw: players who chose to play as LA characters will usually never be as strong as those who play a base class. With the loss of skills, feats, HD, BaB -- in short, all class abilities, an LA'ed character is one who, while having better stats or some special ability, but never matches the true power of the rest of his group. More obviously seen in lower leveled games, the lack of these features often means the LA character will meet a short and gruesome demise, thus actually skewing the game in favor of the so-called 'weaker' races, such as humans, dwarves, etc. So, I propose this: give ALL LA characters racial HD as per their type. While this gives them a little more power, it also gives them the chance to actually survive and be viable throughout their adventuring career. While they gain these abilities, they don't gain true class levels, thus actually making them equal to a base class. A Half Dragon Fighter 3 might have more strength and constitution, among other things, but his BaB would only be a +4, compared to a Fighters +6, as well as the fact that the Fighter would have access to his fighter feats. A Half Dragon Rogue would lose out on lots of skills and sneak attack damage, a half dragon caster on his spells. Consider the possibilities. This rule change could actually allow LA PC's have a fighting chance.
#2 loopy Feb 16, 2005 22:05:42	There is always a way to break a monster character. Both of the monster characters in my campaigns have been complete horrors. One is an Astral Deva who took medium armor proficiency and the other was a Troll Fighter. These characters kill all.
#3 korimyr_the_rat Feb 17, 2005 1:20:06	I personally think that allowing them the option to buy back those levels with XP (as in Unearthed Arcana) makes Level Adjustments far less painful-- and since I run my games using the Gestalt variant, I typically lower LAs a little bit. Using the normal rules, racial HD levels are actually more painful than LA, because they interfere with getting your class skills and still impact your spellcasting. Racial hit dice also tend to have poor saving throws and Base Attack progression and low hit dice. They do very little to help frontline characters keep up with their less exotic peers.
#4 vharuck Feb 17, 2005 13:11:15	However, each HD counts as 1 towards that character's Effective Character Level (ECL). If you increase or add HD, the disparity between the character's HD and ECL will remain the same.
#5 crashy75 Feb 21, 2005 14:36:32	However, each HD counts as 1 towards that character's Effective Character Level (ECL). If you increase or add HD, the disparity between the character's HD and ECL will remain the same. I think he's proposing to not add HD to LA for ECL but instead combine them... For example, a humanoid with a +1 LA would receive 1d8HD (for free). I've been experimenting with this type of system, but the thing that irks me is that (for example) dragons would get d12s while aberrations would get d8s. Definitely broken as is.
#6 mikal Feb 21, 2005 19:39:49	I think he's proposing to not add HD to LA for ECL but instead combine them... For example, a humanoid with a +1 LA would receive 1d8HD (for free). I've been experimenting with this type of system, but the thing that irks me is that (for example) dragons would get d12s while aberrations would get d8s. Definitely broken as is. Yes, that was what I meant, just giving HD for those who have LA w/o actual HD, to help out LA races when they come into battle for PCs.
#7 Xeviat-DM Feb 21, 2005 22:55:10	I've tried to keep all LAs below 2 in my campaign for the races I've created. I've also tried to not have a monster's LA exceed their racial HD. I have a set of anthromorphs who all have 2 humanoid HD, and no level adjustments. While they do have exotic abilities, such as flight, scent, blindsense, or natural weapons, they also have to deal with inferior HD (cleric HD with worse skill sets and worse saves basically) and their racial abilities are weighed against the racial abilities of standard characters plus two levels worth of class abilities. There's no much you can do about the monsters in the MM without overhauling them completely, but you can do your best to not start with a problem.
#8 vintar Feb 21, 2005 23:19:56	I think that when it comes down to it there is no easy formula to make racial progressions instead of LA. It could be similar to savage species - but without loss of HD. Or at least special rules so that levels without HD still count as gaining a level as far as skill points/feats/spells such as blasphemy (based on HD) are concerned. There was a thread a couple months back that delved into just this though it eventually faded after everyone agreed that each race would have to be treated individually. A couple were posted and critiqued, but in the end we decided that it was for each individual group to decide the progressions for races they allowed instead of having to make up a progression for each and every possible playable race.
#9 Gemstone Feb 22, 2005 9:25:34	When I play a monster character, I usually remove racial HD, since it changes ECL and thus takes longer to gain a level... or am I WAY off?
#10 gilean_dup Feb 23, 2005 10:00:38	Every LA equals about 2-3 HD. 2 for humanoids, 3 for dragons and outsiders. I prefer around 2,5 for magical beasts and monstrous humanoids. Putting 1 HD = 1 LA would overpower monster characters, some at least. Gemberry, you are WAY off.
#11 zombiegleemax Mar 07, 2005 2:30:17	The system that worked very well in our games was that for each LA that the character had it would have a -# to all hit, checks, and saves. but when ever the character gained enough XP for a normal character to gain a level, the penalties would be reduced by one and they would receive a HD from whatever class they had chosen. A half dragon can still do damage like a monster but since he is still getting used to his powers it would be harder for him to harness any abilities properly. It keeps a character with a LA of like 3 from being broken like a twig but would still be an effective member until their levels were "paid for."