I have some ideas about how to “finish” the job. First, a brief list of criticisms:
They’re made using only the Core Rule Books.
I understand (and appreciate) that the good folks at Wizards don’t want to require us to buy a whole bunch of books (although I’m sure that’s what they’d prefer). Therefore books are “compartmentalized” to the greatest degree possible. You can pick up any book and all you need to play is the Core Rule Books. Great. Unfortunately entities like gods and the Near Gods require a handling that is not so exclusive. In order to do them justice, we need rules from the Epic Level Handbook, and we could sure use Tomb and Blood, Sword and Fist, and Defenders of the Faith (just for a start). Rules used from these books could be abbreviated and reprinted (Wizards does that all the time anyway).
They aren’t standardized enough.
The actual combat abilities vary wildly amongst the Near Gods. Since their SR’s are so high that spellcasting is a waste of time (see below), supernatural abilities are the highlight of their offensive routines. Many of the Near Gods have fantastic supernatural abilities. Some of them have NONE. The difference between what these guys can actually do and their Challenge Ratings are not balanced. The difference between Morwel and Zaphkiel and everyone else on the Celestial list is just obscene. There is NO comparison, but some of the others have Challenge Ratings that are only a few points off. There’s a similar discrepancy between Asmodeus, Demogorgon, and Baalzebul and the rest of their crew (though Jubilex is highly underrated). I love the idea of the cleric/monk (Pistis Sophia). Was it intentional that she was made so completely helpless? Many of the guardinals are in the same boat though. I’m not saying that we should rethink their Challenge Ratings. We should rethink their powers to make them live up to the hype.
Most of the entries for the Near Gods include an exhaustive list of spell-like abilities. This list is a confusing jumble and would be very difficult to work with in combat. It needs to be organized. Either into categories by use, by spell level, by sphere, or by some combination of the three. What would make the Near Gods a lot easier to read (and cut down on the space they take up in the books) is one “master” list of spell-like abilities that they all have and add a few unique abilities to each individual. Expand that idea and you could make a “master” list of spell-like abilities for all Outsiders (broken down by HD). Can you think of a single 5 HD Outsider that shouldn’t be able make Daylight or Deeper Darkness?
Another related problem calls for the Near Gods’ and the gods’ spell-like ability lists to be redrawn anyway. None of the Near Gods and few of the gods have spell-like abilities that compare to a Solar’s, and Solars have 20th clerical spellcasting abilities also. Solars have a Challenge Rating of 23. The Near Gods should not only be whip the snot out of them physically (which they can) but they should be able to outcast them without engaging physically.
The caster levels and save DCs for spells aren’t high enough.
Or maybe I should say that Spell Resistances are too high. This ties in with not wanting to use the Epic Level Handbook. Asmodeus and Demogorgon could cast spells or use spell-like abilities at each other all day without having any effect (SR 45 and 42, respectively; it is impossible for a 20th level caster without special feats to effect either of them, and very unlikely even with Epic Spell Penetration, and there is no Spell-like Ability Penetration feat that I’ve seen). In almost any situation, it would always be a bad idea for these creatures to use their spell-like abilities in lieu of physical attacks. This simply is not as it should be. Why do they have these long lists if they aren’t useful?
A related problem involves save DCs against their attacks (particularly spells, supernatural abilities are just about right). Asmodeus and Demogorgon have Will saves of +31 and +32, respectively. The save DC against their spell-like abilities are both 20 + spell level. They have no chance of failure against their counterpart’s best spells and spell-like abilities.
There are a number of obvious ways to solve this problem. Increase their Caster Levels, figure out some justification to increase their save DCs (attributes, feats, or special quasi-deific properties), and/or allow them to use their spells as free actions so they don’t have to choose between physical attacks and spellcasting.
It could be argued that this problem with spells not having save DCs high enough to present a challenge to the caster’s peers is symptomatic of a system that works at low levels that ceases to work at high levels. I would not blame anyone for arguing that. I’ve considered it myself, but I’m not at all sure that the DC= (10+ spell level+ attribute bonus) system works even at low levels. Perhaps we should scrap this formula and adopt the supernatural ability formula (save DC = 10 + ½ HD + attribute bonus) for spells. That would certainly be an easier way to get those save DCs up than somehow granting Asmodeus and Demogorgon 20th level spells (which is how high the save DCs would have to be to present a 50% chance of failure to either creature. I don’t understand why spell level should be a factor anyway. It’s the power of the caster that matters not the power of the spell, but I’m not really prepared to argue that.
The Near Gods aren’t immune to enough attack forms.
Despite my last point that they are too invulnerable, there are some attack forms that I think they should not even have to save against. Fear, for instance. Can you see Asmodeus running in fear from some 1st level wizard’s spell? Of course, it wouldn’t get through his SR and even if it did, he’d save against it. That’s not the point. He shouldn’t be insulted by having to save against it. The immunities given to DR 0 gods should be given to the Near Gods.
The Near Gods should use character class levels like the gods.
In my opinion, it is one of the most brilliant aspects of the new D&D is that monsters are handled “just like” characters. The monster HD are broken down and operate very much like class levels. Nonetheless, it simply isn’t fair to give these Near Gods abilities that are clearly related to a character class and then say, “Oh, but they don’t really belong to that class”. The model is set by Deities & Demigods and it’s good so why not use it? Some of the more “monstrous” Near Gods should just keep their HD, but the majority should use class levels.
High attributes equal power. They need to be standardized.
High attributes make high save DCs and high-level bonus spells. There is no way to make a powerful monster without giving him high attributes. There is no way to make a weak monster with high attributes. Attributes are power. Gods and monsters intended to be powerful should have higher attributes than those intended to be weak.
There is no easy way to “standardize attributes”. And Wizards is doing a good job with attributes, as a rule. Unfortunately, there are some inconsistencies. For instance, why does Zeus rule the Olympian pantheon? He isn’t the highest in any single attribute (I haven’t run the numbers but just off-hand, I doubt he has the highest average attribute). In the Iliad, Hera insinuates that Zeus could single-handedly beat every other Olympian. I prefer to think that she was just flattering him, but he should be significantly better than the rest at a lot of stuff (not just Str, he ruled by cunning and force of personality). Athena and perhaps Apollo should be the only Olympians smarter than Zeus. His stats simply don’t reflect his power.
Why is the highest single attribute in Deities & Demigods 55 (Kord and Hercules tied for Str) except Thor who has a 92 Str? OK, he’s strong. He should be at a level with every other warrior deity who claims to be the strongest being in creation. He certainly shouldn’t be twice as strong as everyone else. How strong should Atlas be? Nobody could lift Thor’s Hammer in Norse mythology, but could Thor lift the sky? When we’re trying to represent multiple mythologies simultaneously, we should realize that EVERY mythology has THE strongest, THE fastest, THE smartest and that NONE of these mythologies were entirely accurate in these hyperbolic claims.
Why isn’t anybody as wise or smart or charismatic as the warrior gods are strong? They need those high attributes to make their spellcasting abilities competitive with their peers’ melee abilities.
The Near Gods are too close to the gods with respect to attributes just as the gods are too close to each other. If the Near Gods were suddenly to be elevated to the level of greater deity, it would seem right to add 20 HD, new spell-like abilities, and increase their attributes. But their attributes are already just about as high as the other gods (even the greater ones).
Asmodeus’s average attribute is 31.17. Demogorgon’s is 29.33. The average attribute for the entire “D&D” pantheon in Deities & Demigods is 31.09. Really close. Incidentally the highest single scorer in the D&D pantheon is Bahamut at 34.67. His strength raises his average (53, nearly as strong as anyone else in the book, 2 points stronger than Zeus). His divine rank is 10. A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon has an average attribute of 31.17 (the same as Asmodeus which is above average for a deity). Dragons are great and all, but they aren’t gods. We shouldn’t lower dragon’s attributes. We should raise the gods’.
Like I said, there’s no easy way to handle this. The best thing that occurs to me is to determine from the power level of the monster what you want its average attribute to be and adjust the attributes (one down so many points, another up so many points) as you see fit. This may seem harder, but this way you aren’t just making it up as you go. There’s a system and that’s easier. What should that average be? That’s the tough question. For high-powered outsiders (solars, pit fiends, balors, etc.) and great wyrm dragons, about 30 seems right. For the Near Gods about 35. For the gods take 35 and add their Divine Rank. That’s really high (many greater gods would have attributes in the 70’s) and that would make working out their stats (especially picking their supra-9th level spells) difficult, but when you saw the stat block for a GOD, you’d know what you were looking at.
Now, a brief list of my ideas:
Universal Attributes for Gods and Near Gods
Master of Undeath - The lower planes are home to legions of immortal necromancers whose understanding of the creation and control of undead is vastly beyond mortal ken. The Masters of Undeath never lose an action (not even a free action) controlling their undead minions. At will the Near Gods of the lower planes can create an Unhallow effect as a standard action (the usual 24 hour casting time does not apply), as a move action they can use Animate Dead, as a standard action they can Create Undead, or as a full-round action they can Create Greater Undead. There is no limit to the number of undead creatures that a fiendish Near God can control. Furthermore non-intelligent undead creatures (that typically attack any living thing they see) will not attack the Masters of Undeath unless specifically instructed to do so. The Near Gods of the lower planes can also use Detect Undead, Control Undead, and Undeath to Death at will. In all the cases above, the effective caster level of the Master of Undeath is its total HD. Save DCs are based on Cha.
Master of Undead Turning - The Near Gods of the higher planes can create a Hallow effect at will as a standard action. Any morale effects (such as fear) that the Masters of Undead Turning create through supernatural abilities or spell effects operate normally on undead (despite the fact that undead are usually immune to mind-affecting spells). The good Near Gods ignore Turn Resistance when turning undead (and only undead NOT Evil Outsiders or Elementals). Masters of Undead Turning can use Detect Undead, Halt Undead, and Undeath to Death at will as a caster equal to their HD with a save DC based on their Cha.
Master of Magic - The magical nature of the Near Gods is such that their Outsider HD (typically 20) stacks with any other HD (including character levels) when performing any feat of magic (spellcasting, turning undead, smiting, etc.). Furthermore, feats and abilities that modify the Master of Magic’s spellcasting also apply to his spell-like abilities. For example if a Near God takes the feat Spell Focus (Necromancy), the save DC for his Bestow Curse spell-like ability will increase by 1 point (if he gains Arcane or Divine Reach from Archmage or Hierophant levels, he makes a ranged touch attack). Metamagic feats that do not change the spell level can also be applied to spell-like abilities. The Near Gods can use any sort of magic item (including spell completion items such as scrolls and wands) without fear of mishap. The Masters of Magic also have the ability to create magic items without the loss of XP or the investment of gold. There is no exact science to this process, but any item that the Near Gods carry with them will gradually become more and more powerful. The specific abilities granted to these magic items are typically a reflection of the Near God and his use for the item. Many Near Gods have succeeded in making artifacts. In this fashion Near Gods can easily construct simple magic items to use as rewards for mortals or for their own defense against a threat that they anticipate. Masters of Magic use the supernatural ability save DC formula (10 + ½ caster level + attribute mod) for spells and spell-like abilities using the Cha modifier for spell-like abilities and the relevant attribute for their spells.
Master of the Planes - When a Near God uses Plane Shift, he always arrives exactly where he intended to go. The senses of the Near Gods extend into the Border Ethereal and the Plane of Shadow.
Damage Reduction Penetration - Any natural attack or weapon used by the Near Gods is automatically treated as epic and aligned as they are on both alignment axes.
Near God immunities, resistances, and qualities - All Near Gods are immune to poison and disease, transmutation (form-altering, petrifaction, and polymorph), energy drain (negative levels, ability drain or damage), disintegration and death magic, and all mind-affecting magics (charm, hold, sleep, phantasms, and morale effects). Near Gods have blindsight at a one-mile range. They can understand, speak, read and write any language. Near Gods gain a deflection bonus to their Armor Class equal to their Cha bonus. They gain maximum HPs from each die. Near Gods have a Divine Rank of 0 and each has one Salient Divine Ability (if Div Rank is mentioned in the ability, it is considered 1 for the purposes of that ability). Other qualities vary between individuals.
Alignment-based Spell Effects - The Near Gods are always protected by a Holy or Unholy Aura AND either a Shield of Law or a Cloak of Chaos (neutral Near Gods can choose as a free action once per round). They constantly Detect both their alignment opposites (neutral Near Gods detect both). At will the Near Gods can use Blasphemy or Holy Word and Dictum or Word of Chaos, Dispel Good or Evil and Law or Chaos, and Holy Smite or Unholy Blight and Order’s Wrath or Chaos Hammer (For instance, a Lawful Good Near God can use Holy Word, Dictum, Dispel Evil, Dispel Chaos, Holy Smite, and Order’s Wrath at will. A Near God neutral in one alignment loses the abilities for that axis. For instance, a Neutral Good Near God can only use Holy Word, Dispel Evil, and Holy Smite at will. True Neutral Near Gods lose all of these abilities).
Continuous Effects - Aside from alignment auras and detection, all Near Gods also have in constant effect: True Seeing, Discern Lies, Detect Magic, Detect Scrying, Detect Snares and Pits, and Read Magic.
Universal Spell-like Abilities - at will: Atonement, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Lock, Dominate Monster, Fear, Fireball (maximized, element substitution*), Fly, Freedom of Movement, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Scrying, Greater Teleport, Haste, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Mass Bear’s Endurance, Mass Bull’s Strength, Mass Cat’s Grace, Mass Charm Monster, Mass Eagle’s Splendor, Mass Fox’s Cunning, Mass Hold Monster, Mass Owl’s Wisdom, Message, Neutralize Poison, Plane Shift, Polymorph, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Remove Fear, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Telekinesis, True Strike, Water Breathing; 3/day: Heal, Permanency, Power Word (any), Regenerate, Resurrection, Symbol (any); 1/day: Greater Restoration, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Wish
*At will a Near God can make an effect equal to a maximized Fireball using any energy type he chooses at the moment (fire, electricity, cold, acid, or sonic) (3rd level spell, 60 HPs, 20’ spread, Ref ½)
Caster level for all these effects is equal to the Near God’s HD and save DCs are Cha-based.
Now let’s see that a different way. Arranged with highest-level spells first.
Abjuration- Dimension Lock 8, Greater Dispel Magic 6, Atonement 5, Dimensional Anchor 4, Freedom of Movement 4, Remove Curse 4, Resist Energy 2, Remove Fear 1
Conjuration- Greater Teleport 7, Plane Shift 7, Neutralize Poison 4, Remove Blindness/Deafness 3, Remove Disease 3, Lesser Restoration 2, Remove Paralysis 2
Divination- Greater Scrying 7, True Strike 1
Enchantment- Dominate Monster 9, Mass Hold Monster 9, Mass Charm Monster 8
Evocation- Fireball (maximized, element substitution*) 6/3, Daylight 3, Deeper Darkness 3
Illusion- Invisibility 2
Necromancy- Bestow Curse 4, Contagion 4, Fear 4, Blindness/Deafness 3,
Transmutation- Mass Bear’s Endurance 6, Mass Bull’s Strength 6, Mass Cat’s Grace 6, Mass Eagle’s Splendor 6, Mass Fox’s Cunning 6, Mass Owl’s Wisdom 6, Telekinesis 5, Polymorph 4, Fly 3, Haste 3, Water Breathing 3, Message 0
Limited Use-3/day: Heal, Permanency, Power Word (any), Regenerate, Resurrection, Symbol (any)
1/day: Greater Restoration, Mass Heal, True Resurrection, Wish
It’s a pain in the neck, but its better.
If you’ve stayed with me this long, Thank You. If you were thinking that I’m taking the whole thing too seriously, I would accept that as a valid criticism, but think a moment. “It’s just a game” only goes so far as an argument. These rules have been crafted and recrafted repeatedly over the course of the past thirty years. Gary Gygax had as much to do with the development of my early fantasy life as anyone in my family did. For years I’ve wished I could meet him just so I could thank him, and I’d call him “dad.” Take a glance through the Wizards discussion boards and you’ll see just how many people are endlessly enthralled with this game and just how seriously they take the rules (and I mean the minutiae of the rules). If the rules aren’t important (as has often been said), why is the minimum requirement for playing the game 3 300-page volumes retailing for $40 each. If the numbers aren’t important, why are there so many of them? Why the endless parade of charts? Why are the formulas so complex? Why do the “cost” entries for magic items have six significant digits? Physicists don’t use that kind of precision. It’s an ambitious project to reflect the real world in all its glory in numeric form. It’s doubly ambitious to try to add to the real world. Yes, I do take it seriously. Yes, this article is the result of a great deal of thought and work. It’s a labor of love.
Would you like to see an actual stat block?
They’re made using only the Core Rule Books.
I'd say that ELH should definitely be used. Other books aren't so useful, but ELH is a must. It would solve a lot of problems.
They aren’t standardized enough.
Mostly true.
Can you think of a single 5 HD Outsider that shouldn’t be able make Daylight or Deeper Darkness?
Xorn. Tojanida. It takes absolutely no effort.
The caster levels and save DCs for spells aren’t high enough.
At low levels the formula 10 + 1/2 HD + attribute modifier is followed quite closely. At epic levels, ELH. It does have some problems, true, but better than not using it.
The Near Gods should use character class levels like the gods.
Once again, ELH has the rules so they weren't used. IIRC, D&DG came out before ELH, but BoXD didn't. Not that they are worth buying.
Universal Attributes for Gods and Near Gods
Mostly good, but few should be removed. First, no universal alignment effects. There are too many neutral and indifferent gods to make it worth it. Second, no universal spell list. If we take random deity of helain, mercy and such, why does (s)he have contagion? This logic can be applied to most of the spells.
Dragons are great and all, but they aren’t gods.
I'm sure you are mistaken. Of course dragons are gods and all.
When I read both books and then saw the stats for the 3.5 solars, pitfiends, and balors I said this isn't right. Take Orcus for example. Being the Prince of Undeath an all he only casts spells as like a 13th or 15th level necromancer. Sure he has a bunch of undead making spells as spell like abilities they are only at caster level 20. Since I don't have my BOVD at hand I am only guessing at his supernatural abilities which are about the same level.
Now take Orcus from the Tome of Horrors book. Yeah it's not a Wizards book, but they are the stats of Orcus from previous editions. They, uh, you know, made him less than a man. In some settings he is or was a deity, but still that is like a major difference. I don't know why they made their spells and spelllike abilities capped at 20th level, since they have a challenge rating suitable for epic characters. All of their abilities should have been made higher, I don't know why they made them so low. That's why I change them all for my game and made them have classes and some divinity. Anyways devilMonkey, I like your ideas on making them stronger.
Look at Paradise Lost. Here you've got God himself and all the angels fighting against the fallen angels, and what do they use? Miracle spells? No, they line up like Roman centurions and fight with spears and shields. God runs around zapping people with lightning, but hey, he's God.
The point is, we can presume that battles between the gods take place at a realm beyond our understanding. In order to represent this, we think of it in terms of actual physical combat. Why not use this paradigm for D&D? If a demigod celestial is fighting a demigod demon, let them get some use out of those flaming swords and whips spun of elemental pain. Their physical prowess is only an analogue for their true power anyway; let's keep things in terms we mortals can understand. ;)