My question is, why was that changed? In 1st edition, gods had statistics, just like now. Eventually, someone said "wait a second, if they're gods, why can mortals kill them so easily?" I'm not saying that a god should be 100% unkillable, but honestly now. A great wyrm prismatic dragon could kill probably three lesser gods before going down. Granted, a great wyrm prismatic dragon is the most powerful creature in the multiverse, but honestly now, should a single dragon be able to take down SEVERAL gods? Gods should be so powerful that when two lesser gods fight, they blow up so many planes that the overdeity just says "to hell with it" and makes a new multiverse all together. Right now, the most powerful god I've ever seen can cast 19th level arcane and divine spells, including and fifty-odd epic. The god isn't even in the normal pantheons, because he's too powerful. Almost like a god. Wait...
If gods were as powerful as I say they should be, then why doesn't the strongest god merely wipe out all of his enemies and leave no one in the multiverse other than those faithful to him? Look at the Greyhawk pantheon. The three strongest gods are Pelor, Nerull, and Boccob, deities of good, evil, and neutrality respectively. They're all about equal. If one of them tried to go on a genocidal crusade, the other two would stop him. Well, this isn't always the case, so look at the Faerûnian pantheon. Mystra seems to be the strongest goddess, so why doesn't she wipe out everyone? Because Ao would kick her ass if she tried. So, Ao is the strongest god. Why doesn't HE go and murder everyone who doesn't worship him? For one, only about 100 people worship him. Two, it's HIS multiverse, why did he make it in the first place if he was just going to destroy it? Three, he's rather apathic. Or, more specifically, he's more partial to mortals than the gods. Proof of this is the Time of Troubles.
There are two, main reasons that I've seen in defense of the weakened gods. One is that if gods were truly all-powerful, the strongest god could merely control the multiverse himself. I've already covered that above. Two is that mortals can very well slay gods, and they couldn't in 2nd edition. Gods could be killed by mortals in 2nd edition; it was just really, really, really hard. Is there something wrong with that? I mean, honestly, do you want gods to be killed often? In 3rd edition, a very good power gamer could kill a lesser god at 35th level. It's a given that there aren't many epic characters, but c'mon. Gods have 60 levels, and all those wonderful salient divine abilities. That's another thing, if gods can grant divine spells to all of their worshippers, then how, exactly, do gods grant epic divine spells? Again, if gods were all-powerful, then that wouldn't be a problem. With them having statistics, there's quite a problem.
Here's another thing. Say that we have priest Bracv. Bracv has been faithfully worshipping Heironeous all his life. One day, an evil blackguard captures him. This blackguard keeps Bracv prisoner for fifty years, and eventually begins training him. Bracv then realizes how flawed good is, and becomes an evil priest. He trains and trains, and becomes a lich to be immortal. He trains more and more until he becomes epic. Then he goes and kills Heironeous. What was the point to this story? This: why the Baator didn't Heironeous foresee that Bracv was going to slay him? Granted, Heironeous is a good god and would hesitate to execute Bracv, but replace Heironeous with Nerull. Why couldn't Nerull foresee his demise and thus obliterate Bracv? He's a god, after all.
Concluding, gods with statistics are illogical. Go back to 2nd edition gods.
Why worry about statted gods? Really, in most games where GMs like to think the gods are all powerful, how many Epic Level adventures are going to be run in the first place? Even then, if the player has any intention of ever killing a god, wouldn't the gods take precautions - like seeking out epic level characters to control, dominate or eradicate them to prevent any of them from gaining enough power to kill themselves?
Gods in-tune to the planes (to monitor things like their worshippers to grant them divine prayers) would probably be aware of any group approaching or already at epic level - probably as soon as they start using higher magic and/or planes hopping themselves. If some player advances a character to 35th level with the capability to kill a god, what were the gods doing all that time before hand to prevent this catastrophe from happening?
Their reasoning was that if people saw that Odin was only a 35th level character, then they would realize how stupid it was to try and play a PC to that level and do the sensible thing and retire that PC and move on to another.
Looks like it backfired on them.
IF a lesser god is played correctly as written up in the Deities and Demigods and IF they are played with the necessary control measures in place, THEN they will be as powerful as everyone wants them to be. A great wyrm Prismatic dragon vs. Tiamat, Tiamat WINS. But ONLY if she is played correctly. Now that I'm finished ranting, I'd like to deliver my spin on the 'why' issue.
||Why doesn't the strongest god merely whip out all his enemies?
There are several reasons why a god MIGHT not be in favour of genocide:
1) He/she is GOOD aligned. Good doesn't annihilate all life that disagrees with it. It tries to lead by example and will only move to violence when it is shown violence. It exists as a reactionary force that seeks the betterment of the many over the furthering of the self.
2) Politics, politics, politics. The most powerful god in the AD&D universe that I have seen statted is Correlon Larithian. He is DVR19 and has a slew of abilities to make him incredible. Every time he deals damage with a physical attack his enemy must save or be destroyed. His alter reality allows him to stop time at will and fully heal himself whenever the need arises. Not to mention his BAB is pretty insane.
Where he to go on a rampage and attempt to slaughter everything else in the multiverse he would get his elven behind handed to him as most of the other gods in the multiverse ALL ALLY AGAINST HIM. The 'most powerful god' is never so powerful that he can destroy every other god in every other pantheon in every other area of their prime world. Eventually the other gods would notice and they'd attack him en masse. So really direct action would result ultimately in HIS destruction.
Could be why they use mortals...
||Why doesn't AO, the overgod of the realms simply wipe out everything and rule it?
He doesn't care. He has never cared. Nor WILL he ever care. It is his job as overgod of Faerun to ensure that the balance is maintained. The time of troubles was brought about because the gods at the time didn't give a crap about the mortal world or any sort of balance. They only cared about themselves. So he kicked them out and made them dependant upon their worshipers for power. AO doesn't care about mortal worshippers because mortals are SO utterly far beneath his level of existence as to be comparable to benign bacteria. You don't feel them, see them, or hear them, but if you look REALLY close you know they're there.
||Why wouldn't Hieronius kill the epic level lich that will ultimately destroy him?
Because an epic level lich will NEVER be able to destroy him, his armies, and his 20 AVATARS. And if the lich WOULD have been able to destroy him then Heronius WOULD have destroyed him. Why do you think a lich HASN'T done it? Unless of course the lich is level 5000 or something. But if your non gods have that kind of power what the hell are you doing leaving your gods with 60 character levels?
||If gods can grant divine spells how can they grant epic divine spells?
I'm thinking probably the exact same way.
The gods in the DDG are fine as is for a game that considers 21stlevel as the start of epic and maybe having 60th as around the top. They don't go personally lead genocidal marches because it is a deific cold war. The moment 1 god drops a nuke the ALL drop their nukes and the world dies. Nobody wins. Again, could be why they keep those mortals around.
No, D&D, and it's players, LIKE statistics. They like the idea of having their characters be able to change the world. If you want to have a game where 'the god' is all powerful and can do anything he wants, why play the game at all? It would just be the DM doing whatever he wanted to do.
The gods in D&D are not all powerful because, if they were, then there would be nothing for the PCs to do. 2nd edition gods didn't have stats because epic levels weren't as common, nor as powerful. In 3rd edition, there is no limit.
Conversely, if you want a true being of infinite power, just drop the stats. They do it for Ao and the Lady of Pain (though she's not a deity, nor am I inferring that she is a deity, because I don't want to get flayed
) so you can do it for your own infinitely powerful deities.Not all games are like mine, though. Some parties like to get all Epic, grab up the +11 deitybane battleaze of uberblood, and go to town. Why deny them?
Now, epic groups killing gods? Different story, and I dont see why a god would stand around waiting for it. Only if, say, they were in another god's service could the first not know about it way ahead of time
Now, could tak kill raist before, yes and no. Ol' tak got locked into her own plane due to unruly conduct not befitting a greater diety, but she could have sent worshipers to kill him as a babe. but what about roughly two weeks before hand as her greater diety divine rank would allow? Well, no. not only this, but Raist the god goes on to kill all the other dieties. tHey didn't see it coming. seems even gods have limits.
And THAT's the point of giving gods stats. they wanted to paint a picture between what a lesser, intermediate and greater diety could do. Never anywhere in actual mythology should two lesser dieties have enough power to destoy whole planes of excistance. Dieties are upheld in their power by there portfolios and worship used in a kind of Dragonball Zish Genki Dama effect. So of course that kind of energy, which has a definitive source, is going to bestow limits upon gods. only uber-dieties should remain statless (and they do) because they recieve no worship and still retain their awesome power. Hades might be the god OF Death, but Thanatos IS death. that's the difference between a god and a uber diety. Giving beings who have limits stats which tell of those limits isn't a mistake. have you seen the stats and abilities? I mean c'mon, good luck taken' down Thor. Wale away man. And in mythology, specifically Greek. being a diety didn't necessarily entail formitability. Ares (heh eheh) got taken down rather easily by various mortals (Diomedes, Heracles) and even once by two seven year old giants. Sorry, but lower case G gods are just like what the planescape Athar say "power don't make diety"
You want to kill a deity, then become one yourself. I suspect your priorities and scope of view will alter once that happens.
'Kill Thor and steal his loot', and things along those lines, is something that will get a person laughed at openly in any game of mine. In my opinion, it's the defining act of munchkinism.
That said, any encounter with the divine, by way of an avatar, or even a proxy is a rare occurance in my games. When it happens, it's special and it doesn't cheapen the experience of encountering a truly divine entity. Treating gods as just another high CR encounter does just that, it cheapens the experience for all involved in the game.
I also treat Archfiends as unique beings on a different playing field from most mortals. They're not necessarily more or less powerful than true deities, but they're different... different objectives, different reason for existence (same with the arch celestials). They personify some aspect of a raw alignment, not an idea, a portfolio, etc. They're more raw than deities, much closer to the elements of the plane they inhabit, not defined by some deific portfolio, etc. I treat them nearly as different in scope to gods as I do gods and mortals. Mortals are more likely to interact with an archfiend, but almost as likely to be squashed like a bug if you treat them as some CR X monster that sits in a 10'x10' room with phat lewt to steal and XP to earn.
I don't tend to do hack and slash style games, so perhaps my viewpoint is different on these things. My story hour will eventually progress to all of this anyways.
As for the 'why' of why did powers go from unkillible, statless beings in 2e, to the 'just CR 30something monsters' in 3e?
1) The want to sell a book, DDG, (which was, aside from the very good art, the single most useless book I've bought for gaming. Never used it once, ever. It has sat unopened since the week I got it).
2) How dare you deny players the ability to kill something and 'win the game'. I think this was a bit of pandering to two crowds here. The first being the people new to DnD that have no concept that 'going through the monster manuals in alphabetical order' is a pretty poor way to play the game. The second group being those nostalgic to 1e Dnd, and this gets to my next point.
3) 1e Nostalgia. I never played DnD till 3e, but looking back at the 2e material, primarily Planescape, 3e lacks the flavor and soul of the 2e material. It's gone from fluff and flavor and depth to a tasteless toolbox of stats and game mechanics (no matter how much more well built and streamlined the new 3e mechanics are). For instance, Baatezu and Tanar'ri are now referred to in the 3.5 books as Devils and Demons. The 2e name of Aasimon has been replaced with Angels. Gehreleths are now back to Demodands (and minus the elaborate history and society they had in 2e Planescape). We've also had the uninspired 1e names for Baatezu subspecies shoved down our throats: Kytons become chain devils, Barbazu become bearded devils, Osyluths become bone devils, Gelugons become ice devils.
*sigh* Sadly the guts of 3e DnD have shifted, and the pendulum is swinging more to cater to the interests of the roll, rather than role players.
However, your post didn't really explain why gods shouldn't have stats: it just complained about the fact that they do. Now - in my campaign, I'd have to say that the reason I do not employ stats for gods is that virtually everything else about 3.x HAS statistics, rules, a neat little framework. I recall an apropos line from the 2nd edition DMG: that artifacts do not obey the standard laws of magic to enhance their air of wonder, and their mystery. That's the upshot of NOT statting a god, if you ask me. If the players enter the presence of a god, I don't want them speculating on his Armor Class and caster level: I want them saying, "Whoa, a divine being!" (Of course, they'll probably attempt to mooch or threaten anyway, but that's normal for PCs. ;)
"reach the "Monty Hall" DMs. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?" Dave Arneson himself remembers meeting someone who played a 65th level Balrog.
The problem with line of thinking was that somewhere along the way things started to creep up that contradicted this line of thinking.
1) Zagyg imprisoned 9 demigods. Something that has always been impossible in every edition.
2) The Lady of Pain killed a god. Something a non-divine character should "never" have been allowed to do.
3) The Manual of the Planes stated that several bodies of slain now floated in the astral planes (meaning that multiple gods had already been slain.
And just a couple of years ago (4?) Dragon revealed that a Paladin on the world of (insert name) slew a deity BY HIMSELF! And to top it all of, the creator of the race he was trying to save (Saurials) is nearly dead due to a cult slowly siphoning off his power.
This leads us all to one of 2 painful conclusions:
1) A very good number of respected sources/rulebooks are now to be considered unreliable
or
2) Gods are not really what we think they are. They are not the sources of things they are merely powerful outsiders who (perhaps through worship) have gained power over certain aspects of things.
This would explain why they can die.
Originally posted by Crimson Hellkite
There are two, main reasons that I've seen in defense of the weakened gods. One is that if gods were truly all-powerful, the strongest god could merely control the multiverse himself. I've already covered that above. Two is that mortals can very well
Here's another thing. Say that we have priest Bracv. Bracv has been faithfully worshipping Heironeous all his life. One day, an evil blackguard captures him. This blackguard keeps Bracv prisoner for fifty years, and eventually begins training him. Bracv then realizes how flawed good is, and becomes an evil priest. He trains and trains, and becomes a lich to be immortal. He trains more and more until he becomes epic. Then he goes and kills Heironeous. What was the point to this story? This: why the Baator didn't Heironeous foresee that Bracv was going to slay him? Granted, Heironeous is a good god and would hesitate to execute Bracv, but replace Heironeous with Nerull. Why couldn't Nerull foresee his demise and thus obliterate Bracv? He's a god, after all.
If you should get the chance, read Aleax on page 158 of the BOED. I'm sure it would change your mind on this point.
-Staver ;)
Originally posted by Brknlf
Gods in-tune to the planes (to monitor things like their worshippers to grant them divine prayers) would probably be aware of any group approaching or already at epic level - probably as soon as they start using higher magic and/or planes hopping themselves. If some player advances a character to 35th level with the capability to kill a god, what were the gods doing all that time before hand to prevent this catastrophe from happening?
I have a campaign revolving around this very question. The reason in the campaign is quite simple: to defend the free world from the return of an ancient evil god (cause his good counterpart can't be resurrected).
It seems to me your complaint is that different non-core rulebooks written at different times don't work perfectly together and don't match with your idea of D&D cosmology. Sorry about that. The last time I checked my DMG(which is a core book) you could treat gods and cosmology anyway you wanted it. Why would you allow the epic level book or deities and demigods into your campaign if you didn't like them?
1. If you're low or even mid level, the stats of gods are so high, they're quite irrelevant to you, since it wouldn't make any difference if they're lvl 30 or lvl 60, the chances are still astronomically small you'll be able to kill one.
2. In the event you should reach above level 20, even the weakest of the lesser gods would still be more than a match for you.
The fact that the Gods rule the world does not necessarily mean that they should also be the most powerful creatures around. They manage the world, and keep a balance. Ultimately, they wouldn't try to kill their fellow gods, because it would unbalance the world, and Lord AO would punish them for it. As he did during the times of trouble.
Point is: It's unimportant if gods have stats or not, if the DM uses them, you're gonna get splattered, and if not, you'll still get splattered. And for a DM, the golden rule still applies: If you don't like it, change it. I find it highly unlikely that the printing of the stats of gods will ever change the course of a game for you.
First, not all gods in history have been all knowing, super sentient beings. They have weaknesses and frailties, just like you or me. Your problem is that you are assuming that because the Christian god is this way, all gods must be. However, this is not always the case. In Greek mythology, for example, most gods' abilities to forecast the future were based on their ability to control mortals. If the gods favored a particular person, for example, they lived a blessed life. If the gods were angry with that person, they were punished. What mystics of Greek culture divined, therefore, was not necessarily the future, but the will of the gods. Now granted, there are exceptions, but my point is to show that the idea of D&D gods not having a whole knowledge of everything makes sense if you look at the knowledge of other gods in other cultures.
Second, you mention that it's really really hard to kill a god in 3e. Well, it's still really really hard to kill a god. If you have to be 35th level before you can even consider the possibility of killing a god, I think that's a pretty good limiter, don't you? Just because the mechanics make it possible for a min/maxed character of 35th level to kill a god, doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense. Many of the greatest heroes in mythology are ones who had only a ghost of a chance of winning and succeeded because of ingenuity. Call it what you will, but I think min/maxing is a sign of ingenuity and therefore it makes sense that a character should be able to take out a god if their player designed them right.
Third, you mention that gods should be more destructive when they battle. Well, they are. All you have to do is read some of the spells in the Epic Level Handbook to realize just how destructive they have the potential to be. On the other hand, I don't agree with your assessment that gods should take out planes when they fight. If they're that destructive then it serves to their disadvantage, because soon there won't be anything left to fight over. Meanwhile, lesser deities do have superiors. If they get that destructive, it's likely that they're going to be stopped before they get too far in their path of destruction across the planes.
Finally there is something that you didn't mention which I think needs to be addressed. No god is alone in the multiverse! If a god can't take out a person alone, they have demons, angels, other worshippers, etc. to call on. These resources far outweigh anything that a mere mortal may have at hand. If a god is so foolish as not to draw on these resources, then they shouldn't be deities and they deserve to fall to the hands of a 35th level character. At least, that's my opinion.
If you were truly fanatical about giving gods statistics, then they should do over a thousand damage per attack and have millions of hit points. That way, a mortal couldn't possibly kill them, and even if the weakest god fights the strongest god, it'd take a really long time for the weaker god to die. If one god wanted to blow the universe up, another god could just dispell it; that way, anyone short of Tharizdun would still be doing what they're doing now: walking around all the planes, taking their time and hand picking worshippers that could potentially be great champions, and also making sure that all of their worshippers are granted spells and prayers for their faith.
Check these SRD links for more information:
Divine Ranks and Powers Divine Abilities and Feats
Divine Domains and Spells
Divine Minions
Originally posted by Arnkel
I think part of the reason for giving gods stats is to come up with new adventure ideas. Now before anyone else rants hear me out. The Norse Pantheon is going to die according to their own legends at Ragnarok. Statted deities give characters the ability to take part and sides in the war against the gods. While the Standard Pantheon does not have such a legend(as far as I know) this at least gives DMs the option. Also, The Complete Divine does NOT as I recall give deities stats.
IIRC the Greek (and Roman) Pantheon had a book in which was written down when a god would die. They were not immortal, but they just knew when they would die, and could not be killed before their time.
There's a story about someone incapacitating a god by cutting his muscles (or maybe tendrons) and separating them from the gods body, leaving the god unable to move. I'm not sure but I believe some mortal hero (Herakles/Hercules, Perseus, Theseus?) retrieved the muscles and restored the god to full function.
Greek gods were like you have them in Xena, maybe a little more powerful as depicted there, but the same kind of idea. Also the Titans, while not technically gods, were immortal too.
Go read some Greek mythology, it might give you some ideas.
Now, I agree that many parties ultimately aspire to kill a god. Probably to get their loot. And although the evil plotline says that they'll all die well before that point, it's still a nice dream for them to have.
Now, gods aren’t getting any stronger. They're sitting around on clouds quietly. Why do that if you can multiply your power by 10million+ by going into a hole and smitin' a few monsters? Because they're immortal. If a ranger becomes level zillion and decides to take on the pantheon, the pantheon runs off for a couple thousand years, and by then the ranger will be dead. They come back and rule the world again.
Gods, in my final opinion, should be killable, but they should be played right by the DM, and if a god is played right then they're not going to lose to a group of snot-nosed adventurers who found a shiny sword.
1. It is an opinion. While opinions have merit, that does not mean it should be considered as law for the entire gaming community.
2. Deities & Demigods is an optional book for a reason. If there's something you not like in it, then don't USE the parts you dislike. A novel concept, isn't it?
Crimson Hellkite, your second post only makes my point for me, as anyone who's regarding the matter in a far calmer and rational manner can see. In your game giving Gods the upper hand likely works, and therefore is A-ok in my book. But I REALLY being dislike being told I shouldn't be playing the game in a way I personally might find enjoyable.
To sum it all up, with all the flavor dried out of it: If you don't want Gods with stats, then don't use them; but in return for me giving you that courtesy, I would appreciate it if you left me to play the game the way I like, without having you screaming at the top of your lungs that everyone should be playing the game your way.
Peace brother :D
I play a character in Forgotten Realms and is it unfair that when my character dies, he will finish in the wall of the faithless or in hell. But he thinks it is far better than stupid submission to only a handful aspects of life. He hopes one day he will have the occasion to kill gods, as all of them are tyrants ruling by the shame or the fear.
I hate violent solutions, but I will always make an exception for gods.
I vote for the gods with stats.
To answer the question of why gods with stats and other things you don’t care about. Well that’s because you aren’t the only player; in your world gods are simply gods. In some campaigns people play gods or demigods. Or they play epic characters who go and slay one.
Answer: you don't. While you might kill its current physical incarnation, all you have really done is inconvenience it slightly. It will come back at another time, perhaps in a different guise, and maybe even with a different outlook and set of priorities, but it will be basically the same.
As for Ragnarok, I think (but don't quote me on it) that if I recall correctly, the Gods all die in a battle with each other. Thor dies at the hands of Jorgunmander, the serpent that coils at the base of the world tree (and is incidentally, Loki's offspring and therefore at least semi-divine). Odin and Surtur (the God of fire giants) kill each other as well as many examples of divine fratracide.
The only thing that should be able to kill a God is another God, and if it's come to that, then you're looking at the end times buddy boy. Make your peace and kiss your butt goodbye.