Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 07, 2007 23:52:58	First off, this is mostly inspired by the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. It's a definite must for any self-respecting DM. The big-picture perspective offered by the book lets you set up wonderful backgrounds for any campaign setting. Before I get going, you have to keep in mind the overarching big-picture view the book has. Things tend to be certain ways, and it's impossible to make specific predictions about specific cultural groups within the same geographical areas due to the inherent randomness and dynamic potential of individuals (big names like Alexander the Great, Albert Einstein, Napoleon). This shouldn't be a set of rules that you slavishly attach yourself to. In D&D, you can always break the rules and say “a wizard did it”, and it would be true for whatever region you set the oddity up in. Also, this should not be used as a substitute for good DMing. Instead, it should be used to flesh out a setting, making it deeper. A deep setting encourages players to dig deeper into the setting because they always know they will find something, even if they never uncover even a tenth of the content. The following factors should be given heavy consideration. First is geography. Due to shared technology (notably agricultural spreading within similar climate zones), large contiguous regions will tend to develop highly advanced civilizations. However, there needs to be some degree of geographic diversity to a region to keep it from developing an overarching government that will retard advancement. This is a minor aspect of the overarching concept, but a DM should keep it in mind avoid certain fallacies, such as adjacent regions with radically different cultures. This is fun and worth noticing if you're the type of DM that likes to lay out big maps before populating them. Second is technology. Although simple technologies like metallurgy and agriculture are what gives civilizations superiority over other civilizations, they're not the main force in a D&D world. Magic introduces another factor. Arcane magic constantly advances and grows (even if the D&D spells are all static for simplicity), and has a huge impact on a society's strength and role in the world. Rather than modifying existing spellcasting rules, magical advancement should be best represented by the quantity and quality of magic items that find widespread use in a society. Thus, a magic-dependent city with continual flame lanterns on every major street, a watch equipped with minor magical weapons and armors, and several mage guilds that contract out their services to the city to create those sort of things can easily repulse savage tribes and even small armies, provided the attackers are armed with crude nonmagical weapons. Even if the attackers have a few high-level spellcasters backing them, a level 1 wizard armed with a wand and a few scrolls is akin to a conquistador clad in steel and armed with a rifle. He may not be able to go head-to-head with a fully rested spellcaster, but fifty charges is significant, and several dozen low-level spellcasters armed with appropriate spell-trigger or spell-completion items can turn the tide of battle, or even overwhelm a spellcaster who has devoted some of his resources to a battle. Such a city also is a hotbed of magical experimentation. The fruits of these experiments, magic items, are spread (through sale, theft, or mere observation) throughout the entire region and inspire even further magical advancements in other societies. This spreading doesn't work as well in small, isolated regions, as there are less potential spellcasters to perform such experimentation. Thus, large regions will tend to have more advanced magic than small, isolated regions. Magical advancement is an entirely economic activity. If a high-level wizard doesn't have money, and the society this high-level wizard is in doesn't have enough money to pay for his costly spellcasting services, it doesn't matter how many item creation feats he has. He simply cannot come up with enough money for the raw materials to craft an item, only advanced societies with large agricultural surpluses to support crafting and other lucrative professions can adequately support magic item creation. Magic also is no basis for political power; metalworkers, scientists, and computer programmers have almost never become powerful leaders (there's a reason familiars give you a Leadership penalty, they're nerdy!) Spellcasters are best oriented towards providing a service above that of a normal craftsman (who himself is above a character with a Profession), not to ruling countries. This doesn't mean you shouldn't have spellcasting BBEGs with political power, you're sure to see high-level characters of any class commanding and aiding armies, it's just that you don't usually see them ruling countries. Third is disease. Disease usually comes from domesticated animals, mutating to affect humans and then spreading throughout the population, wreaking havoc until humans become resistant to it or die. Divine counters to epidemics are infeasible, once a disease has spread to enough of a population, a cleric simply will not have enough high-level spell slots per day (clerics can only prepare every 24 hours, another limitation of actual spellcasting in a society) to match the number of individuals who become newly affected each day. However, magic item stockpiles (scrolls of remove disease, or merely enchanted Heal skill kits) as described above are able to help even nonspellcasters lessen the impact of epidemics greatly, again showing the superiority of magical technology over magical power. Putting this in perspective, a highly advanced society needs herd animals, if it does not it will be eventually dominated by another society that does. When the invaders march into a city (after having infected the population during initial peace talks), they will be greeted by a disease-ravaged populace barely able to fight, regardless of their technological level (and spellcasters capable of using spell-trigger and spell-completion items have poor Fortitude saves, they're the ones to go first). Cows, pigs, and chicken are the mainstays of today's modern diet, but a fantasy world has the potential to go outside of these bounds. Domesticated dinosaurs are a simple and easy way to do this, but DMs should get creative. Another type of disease would be a bit more insidious and fantastic in nature. Baleful magic, demon summoning and necromancy to name a few, are simple ways for spellcasters from an advanced civilization to screw with spellcasters from a less advanced one. A travelling spellcaster from a more advanced society merely needs to include a few harmful spells (set myself on fire, animate my skeleton, almost turn me into a lich, summon an angry balor to attack me, Black Mage pukes his guts out) with whatever magical notes he passes along with a friendly smile to his new shaman friend. Because most of the notes are sound magic, the spells get spread through the spellcasting circles of the civilization, and shamans mysteriously dying might not be noticed for centuries. These spells would almost always be the results of failed research, or maybe malicious experimenting. Such backfiring spells are the sort of thing that tribal spellcasters will have little time to come across (what with trying to keep your tribe from being killed by the mysterious plague that followed those more advanced explorers), but one is bound to find volumes upon volumes of them lying around in a mage's guild. Finally, there is the question of race. What does the premise of Guns, Germs, and Steel say about the standard D&D races? Although the thesis of the book is that there is no inherent difference between the standard human races, there are inherent differences between humans and other races, and those differences over time will being to compound and eventually make all the difference in a world. Humans have been left out because Guns, Germs, and Steel has already covered them. Gnomes have been left out because they obviously are going to rule the world when everything's done (racial Constitution bonus, very good at magical advancement, already agriculture-oriented, and the only remaining unknown is how much geography favors them). Halflings are grouped under humans because they live among humans. Dwarves The greatest strength of the dwarf race is its racial Constitution bonus and metalworking. Dwarves are less susceptible to disease, and they are going to need it. Dwarvish economy isn't based on farming, most dwarvish societies must trade their crafted goods for grain, grain products, and other staples, as their mountain-based cities do not have the terrain to support them. Therefore, dwarvish socieites will develop few diseases, and it is easy to introduce a new disease to a dwarf. Mitrhal and adamantine are superior metals, capable of matching up to most low-end magical weapons and armors. Unfortunately, dwarves remain isolated, both physically and emotionally. Although their isolation gives them access to great resources, it cuts them off from the rest of the world and the trade that would give them magical advancement. Dwarves export weapons and armors, and rarely import them. Dwarves are also hopelessly conservative, even if a new advancement was brought before them, would they accept it or ban it outright for some obscure political reason? Dwarvish rune magic (presumably the only kind of arcane magic a dwarf would use) is static and changes as slowly as language, meaning that dwarves will fall behind, no matter how much more advanced than humans they are. Still, dwarves are stubborn, and it's not likely that they will quickly become extinct. In fact, their isolated nature and natural resilience protects them from disease, and they always have access to superior raw materials for weapons and armors that can compete with highly advanced magical technology. Elves Elves have the benefit of magic. Elves have been using magic since before humans had language, and they have a great love of perfecting it. This means that an elvish society is a highly magical one, as magical craftsmen have their entire lives to accumulate the wealth necessary to make fine magical goods. Unfortunately, the elves have many, many disadvantages. First off is the Constitution penalty. Elves are highly susceptible to disease. This is compounded by their tribal nature, elves live as hunter-gatherers, even if they are erudite hunter-gatherers. The only reason they have come so far with magical technology is their head-start against every other race, and they will quickly be outstripped by larger agricultural societies. They also suffer from their age, elves that are slain during conquest are nearly impossible to replace. In the time that a pair of two elves can replenish into a society of one hundred elves of all age categories, two humans can replenish several small nations, and in that time the humans will have developed significant technology. Overall, elvish societies only have their superior magical technology to fall back on, and even though that is crippled by their lack of resources, they have several millennia worth of their ancestors' magic item creation to keep up with surrounding large societies. Orcs Orcs may not look like they have much going for them. However, their main advantage does not lie in their racial abilities, but in their aging. Orcs, judging by the aging charts of half-orcs compared to humans, reproduce a bit faster than humans. Also, it can be assumed that orcs tend to be more fertile than humans, as many shorter-lived mammals give birth to more young at once and with shorter gestation periods. This is a very significant issue, it means that orcs will tend to beat other races through sheer numbers, especially because nearly every orc, male and female, young and old (even if there are very few old orcs due to their hunter-gatherer societies), can be a warrior, while few humans devote themselves to military professions. Just as elves can lag behind humans in population, humans can lag behind orcs. It doesn't matter how much magical technology you have if you are always outnumbered an average of three to one by your enemy. Even if an orc clan suffers a major loss due to attempted extermination, they will bounce right back in a few generations with a tribe of warriors thirsty for blood. Orcs are also nocturnal (they live in temperate hills, not the Underdark, this is why they have darkvision), preferring to raid stationary human encampments in the dead of night and then disappearing into the darkness before militia can be fully alerted. Still, everything's not perfect. Orcs have mental penalties across the board, retarding their magical advancement significantly. Orcs also suffer all of the problems that hunter-gatherers do, including high risk of death due to injury or murder, difficulties in rearing children (though this is mitigated by their short lifespans), few resources to draw upon, and little resistance to disease. The mental ability penalties are really what prevents orcs from ruling the world through sheer numbers, they are reduced to stealing magical technologies in order to keep pace. However, their short reproductive cycle lets them recover quickly from anything, and orcs will remain a scourge to humans for millennia to come.
#2 zombiegleemax Sep 02, 2007 16:32:16	Very interesting, I am reading the book for a report that is due soon so needless to say I was extremely surprised to see anyone had transferred the ideas on to fantasy. I hadn't thought about it at all. On the note of the orcs and child raising I must say a few things. A very big reason why hunters could not travel with more than about one child who could not walk is because they had no real way to carry them, no animals to pull carts and put the children in the carts. For many reasons, from raiding to the obvious military advantage of domesticating horses, the orcs would have the ability to have more than one child at a time as they have no need to carry them and probably need only one person to look after a cart, if that given the societal standards for violence and how that my apply to rearing children. Magic wouldn't be a big problem until much higher level powers decide its time to take the restraints off of their magical powers. Numbers can easily beat magic just like numbers beating technology. More so because technology takes less training than magic would, to learn to cast a fireball or magic missile is harder than trying to fire a gun. Also, before the Mesoamericans come up, they had no idea that the Spaniards were going to attack them, knowledge is much more powerful than technology in many cases. On the case of elves, why do you say they are hunter gathers? I understand the forest setting can lend to that but with their long life spans they more than likely domesticated many things that humans could never domesticate, such as an oak tree given that oak trees take about 15 years from what Diamond said and an elf takes 130 or so to mature, they could have easily gone through almost 10 generations of oak trees by the time an elven generation matured. This can apply to any forest berries or other 'stubborn' trees for us. Mushrooms as well can be useful when grown and consider the multiply uses of an oak tree when it gets old, say around 100 years, it can be cut down and used for wood, magical trees might have other uses like in the leaves as well that make them worth leaving for a natural death, and then use the material left over for growing mushrooms in a secure area. They are also the most likely people to domesticate anything that can be found in the forest, not that there is much for food wise but birds can be useful as well and considering magic a bear is a little, only a little, more likely to be domesticated. This is just my take on them, remember that elves are more likely to go for hard things that are long than short things that are easy, domesticating trees is right up their alley and if they can use magic to do it all the better for them. I refrain from remarking about the dwarves as I whole heartedly agree with what you have stated there. Now on to gnomes, I had to look over them in the Player's Handbook to partially understand what you meant about the agriculture and I will mostly go to read the Races of Destiny on them as well when I get a chance. They seem almost perfectly set up to rule the world, as stupid or hilarious as that might seem. They live somewhat underground, theoretically they could live in a low underdark if you wanted to say that, lending to easy fortification because of the lack of entrances without hard work as well as meaning that the land above can be used for farming and technically housing without any reduction in land. They have a knack for magic just by heredity, more than any elf could ever say really, and that in combination with alchemy can be very powerful. They would eat little, both being small and only weighing on average about 40 lbs leading to a lot of excess production for trade, with the dwarves for metals, and storage for bad times. Gnomes are awesome apparently more so than I ever thought. Wouldn't mind talking further on some of the advances the gnomes might make with their relatively short maturity and long life spans. This is just my take on the races, I do agree with the advancement of magic and its apparent replacement of actual technology if it is in a world, you'd never need to have technology as magic can more than supply you with everything you need, quite literally sometimes. Again I would like to go over some of the advancements spellcasters might make in magical item creation and production, what practical uses magic items might have beyond weaponry.
#3 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2007 19:35:13	Three months to get published in the Repository? Yech, I had to go back and reread the article to refresh myself. On the note of the orcs and child raising I must say a few things. A very big reason why hunters could not travel with more than about one child who could not walk is because they had no real way to carry them, no animals to pull carts and put the children in the carts. For many reasons, from raiding to the obvious military advantage of domesticating horses, the orcs would have the ability to have more than one child at a time as they have no need to carry them and probably need only one person to look after a cart, if that given the societal standards for violence and how that my apply to rearing children. Magic wouldn't be a big problem until much higher level powers decide its time to take the restraints off of their magical powers. Numbers can easily beat magic just like numbers beating technology. More so because technology takes less training than magic would, to learn to cast a fireball or magic missile is harder than trying to fire a gun. Also, before the Mesoamericans come up, they had no idea that the Spaniards were going to attack them, knowledge is much more powerful than technology in many cases. Good points here. I'm sticking with the traditional orcs as savages view, not the Eberron orcs as semi-civilized warlords view. Eberron orcs are a major power in Khovaire. Animal herding is one thing I didn't consider. Herding animals has many of the benefits of agriculture, and would give orcs a strong step towards disease resistance. Orcs could pull a Mongol Horde and forge an empire through sheer combat prowess and diplomacy. However, the Mongols only did it once when China was in political turmoil after a collapsed dynasty, it was a follow-up to centuries of raiding and pillaging that gave them lots of experience in harassing people in cities, and it was largely the result of the efforts of Ghengis Khan as a charismatic warlord. I can imagine that an orc empire would be very similar (much like orcs in Eberron, actually), a small irregularity in the grander scheme of things and definitely not an empire destined to dominate the world. On the case of elves, why do you say they are hunter gathers? I understand the forest setting can lend to that but with their long life spans they more than likely domesticated many things that humans could never domesticate, such as an oak tree given that oak trees take about 15 years from what Diamond said and an elf takes 130 or so to mature, they could have easily gone through almost 10 generations of oak trees by the time an elven generation matured. This can apply to any forest berries or other 'stubborn' trees for us. Mushrooms as well can be useful when grown and consider the multiply uses of an oak tree when it gets old, say around 100 years, it can be cut down and used for wood, magical trees might have other uses like in the leaves as well that make them worth leaving for a natural death, and then use the material left over for growing mushrooms in a secure area. They are also the most likely people to domesticate anything that can be found in the forest, not that there is much for food wise but birds can be useful as well and considering magic a bear is a little, only a little, more likely to be domesticated. This is just my take on them, remember that elves are more likely to go for hard things that are long than short things that are easy, domesticating trees is right up their alley and if they can use magic to do it all the better for them. Hehe. Domesticated oak trees. Okay, back on track. Forests are bad places for agriculture. As you noted, elves spend their time domesticating trees and perfecting magic, rather than figuring out new ways to do agriculture. And trees, unless severely domesticated, will not provide enough food production to sustain a population in the way that grain does. Guns, Germs, and Steel makes a critical point about how not having agriculture, or having subpar agriculture, determines who gets to build the empires. Now on to gnomes, I had to look over them in the Player's Handbook to partially understand what you meant about the agriculture and I will mostly go to read the Races of Destiny on them as well when I get a chance. They seem almost perfectly set up to rule the world, as stupid or hilarious as that might seem. They live somewhat underground, theoretically they could live in a low underdark if you wanted to say that, lending to easy fortification because of the lack of entrances without hard work as well as meaning that the land above can be used for farming and technically housing without any reduction in land. They have a knack for magic just by heredity, more than any elf could ever say really, and that in combination with alchemy can be very powerful. They would eat little, both being small and only weighing on average about 40 lbs leading to a lot of excess production for trade, with the dwarves for metals, and storage for bad times. Gnomes are awesome apparently more so than I ever thought. Wouldn't mind talking further on some of the advances the gnomes might make with their relatively short maturity and long life spans. Ah, glad to see I wasn't totally off-base on this assumption. The thing about gnomes and halflings is that they are content to integrate themselves within human society, and their culture is much less distinct than elf or dwarf culture. One rarely hears of a gnome or halfling warlord carving out an empire. In the end, gnomes and halflings consider themselves a part of human culture. Although a gnome or halfling may become a powerful official (or even a leader) in a human government, he will still represent a human population in that position. This is just my take on the races, I do agree with the advancement of magic and its apparent replacement of actual technology if it is in a world, you'd never need to have technology as magic can more than supply you with everything you need, quite literally sometimes. Again I would like to go over some of the advancements spellcasters might make in magical item creation and production, what practical uses magic items might have beyond weaponry. Practical uses? Well, let's say the week of a plague outbreak, runners from the capital of a kingdom deliver a few +5 Heal kits to local villages along with instructions to ensure that node individuals (traders, merchants) get treated first while everyone else gets quarantined. That's your taxes at work right there. Let's get more fantastic. Say that every province in a kingdom is issued a magic cauldron that, once per week, will spit out a scrap of paper describing the most serious disaster to occur that week within the region (divination). Sure, it doesn't do anything once a month, but it's better than nothing. And if three provinces get "refugees from neighboring province X dampen local economy" while that province's cauldron remains silent that week, the failure isn't that big of an issue because the local ruler gets notified of it in the daily magic mirror teleconference. It also makes a great adventure hook if it gets stolen. :D Oh, dang, that's a sweet adventure hook!
#4 robespierre Sep 10, 2007 19:11:17	What seems to be forgotten here is the fact that the races have evolved socially. While gnomes may be good at alchemy and such, they need to get there. (Though, it is D&D, not only can one say 'a wizard did it,' but one can also say 'the gods did it.') Assuming a lack of gods, but a presence of magic(or at least of interventionist gods) the magical aptitude of gnomes would have that edge, and may get into alchemy. You might find this interesting...
#5 aelryinth Sep 15, 2007 22:23:23	A real campaign changer on a personal basis, is a Ring of Sustenance. Consider: You are now immune to the need for food. Farmers and agriculture is now irrelevant. You never need to sit down to eat...in effect, you always have high energy levels, yet you never need to worry about maintaining your weight. Then, you don't need liquids. You don't need to drink...anything. Immune to dehydration from any source, including overwork and overexertion. Sweating like a pig? So what. You get it all back, not a problem. Combine the two? You never have to go to the bathroom again. Food is an utter luxury. You only eat if you want to, since you are never hungry. So you never have to put up with poor food, and never have to spend money on food and drink unless you want to, and likely only then if it is of the highest quality. You never have to haul around rations or the like, either, which on longer journeys saves a lot of weight and space. And THEN, on top of that, two hours of sleep and you get the equivalent of eight. Brighter eyed, bushier tailed all day, and SIX HOURS more work time then a normal person. Six hours more you can fill doing with anything you like. With the high energy levels of always being fully fed and with proper nutrition and liquids. All this for 2K gp. Leave all your 'common' cares and worries behind, and be immune to caring about the worries of the common man, being above the dire threats of famine and drought. No adventurer in his right mind would be without one. ===Aelryinth And all this, for the price of 2K gp.
#6 aelryinth Sep 16, 2007 10:21:59	I need to point out one thing about Gnomes, and to the extent halflings: They are Small. Humans are at the evolutionary size of the ideal predator...not too big, not too small. Gnomes and Halflings are small...they are effectively jackals worrying at the kills of wolves and leopards. While resistant to disease and able to hide, they are not able to defend, dominate, and control territory as effectively as larger races. Being weaker and wielding smaller weapons in time of war is a huge detriment to expansion and control. Despite your technology, the marauders come in, butcher you with sheer might, take your toys, and reverse engineer them. This article also ignores the gaming concept of adaptability as applied to humans. Orcs are considered adaptable because they are naturally strong and tough...but they are stupid and can't advance themselves, only steal and try to reverse engineer. Humans are considered naturally adaptable because they get a bonus feat at level One that can specifically help them survive in an environment better then simply having a stat mod. Great Fortitude is a sucky feat...until you realize that it is equal to a +4 Con racial bonus for resisting disease, for making fatigue and exhaustion checks, and similar things...a human with this feat can literally outwork a Dwarf...or an Orc. A Human with bonus feats specializing in magical research, science, a trade skill, or the like, can outperform members of a race with higher innate ability scores, and advancements like this are typically made by specialists, anyway. Humans gravitate towards careers that take advantage of their bonus feats. A human with a bonus feat of skill focus (smithing) is actually a better natural smith then a Dwarf, even with their Stonecunning bonus! The human race is GEARED towards specializing. That human bonus feat makes some parts of the human race natural warriors, others natural workers, others natural crafters, and others natural leaders. While other races might get a bonus in specific areas that rival those of human 'natural' specialists, as a whole, the human ability to adapt itself to specific roles and form a society of natural specialists is a huge advantage over other species. Other races observing the human race over time would probably draw many similarities to insects, with their numbers and specialized roles. An Example is that while Dwarves all make natural smiths, there is no such thing as a society built solely of metal workers and stone shapers. A human smith can be as talented at the role as a Dwarf...and you only need so many of them. Then the Dwarves can only blink in surprise at the way talented humans are so superior to them in virtually every other field of endeavor. The only way they can compete is by burning feats of their own and using their long years to leverage more xp levels and skill ranks, and being able to pass on learning from far more experienced elders then humans can muster. Secondly, remember that while highly developed agriculture is needed to advance a society, etc, there also has to be a need for the food. Elves and dwarven societies are normally assumed to be agriculturally independent. Elves can get all they need from the surrounding forest...there is no NEED to develop agriculture, because they don't have the population to require it. Elves are also assumed to have domesticated hunting animals, at the least, and herd animals via horses, and probably sheep, goats and the like for their fur for clothing, and possibly even deer. Dwarves are shown in most D@D worlds to at least have domesticated pigs, because such can live underground, and to have devoted living area to the growth of mushrooms/fungi/moss that they use in place of grain...and that they also maintain control of the surface areas of their kingdoms for the care of sheep and goats that are raised for milk, wool, and meat. It's simply downplayed because of the importance of mining and smithcraft in most people's view of Dwarves. Advanced Elven and Dwarven civilization include farming elements, but they remain 'off camera' because they don't fit the stereotype. Again, agriculture provides for a population base, and neither race is foolish enough to ignore such a need, nor could they develop without the idea of food being easily available allowing them to evolve into higher trades and specializations. The fact is that animal husbandry and agriculture are probably so advanced among elven and dwarven populations that the % of the population devoted to them is much, much smaller then for a human culture in the standard D@D setting, thus allowing them to have more advanced cultures in other aspects with the resources and population this frees up. ==Aelryinth
#7 timidbarbarian Sep 16, 2007 14:47:24	I disagree with the notion that arcane spell casters are politically the equals of programmers/scientists. In regard to magic item creation, there is some similarity, but while magic users may be more similar to them than anything else we have today, there are still great differences. In terms of production, there's a huge gap between programmers and magic users. Magic users must create items themselves, without recourse to a factory like programmers have. Magic items aren't something you can make on an assembly line; given game rules they are forced to make them themselves, preventing anything like a magical Industrial Revolution. It still depends on expertise, meaning invention and production are mechanically inextricable. There are also gaps in terms of use. While many magical items are usable regardless of who you are, wands, scrolls, and staffs require advanced training. Even with UMD, the group of people able to use them is relatively low. The personnel cost of magic is high, and not just on the production side. It's as if every soldier needed to be have a Ph.D. Arcane casters are not just scientists, they are the weapons themselves. They're walking howitzers, and such power can't be used apart from them. In a given society, they would have power equal to armies at their disposal, and such power often is used to take over societies. Mageocracy is not inevitable, but mages should exercise political power given what they can do.
#8 Paladin-s_Pride Sep 16, 2007 15:35:11	One thing that I would like to expand on was the idea that mages would not be rulers within society. This idea might seem a bit counterintuitive initially, but I agree that in most societies such individuals would not have a great deal of political power. Those who rule in society tend to do so because they have an initial advantage which they use to rise to the top of society. Once there, they can use laws and other sources of power like military to maintain their position. Now wizards undoubtedly have an incredible advantage compared to their peers. A 5th level mage can reduce half a dozen warriors to ash in such an immediate and spectacular manner that it is unlikely anyone could oppose such individuals on a societal level if they were motivated to take the reins of power for themselves. However, a wizard's power extends from their specialization in magical arts, an activity that is time-consuming, expensive, and difficult. The upshot of this is that in the process of becoming rulers, a wizard or group of wizards would dramatically reduce their ability to gain magical power. Realms led by wizards would likely be overthrown by realms where wizards did not take the reins of state, since these wizards would have advanced in magical prowess at a faster rate due to not being burdened by political responsibility. This said, sorcerers would be natural rulers of society, having been gifted with natural charisma. In addition, they have no need of study to maintain their magical gifts (at least the rules don't indicate they need to study), and thus could rule a realm and advance their powers at the same time. Nobility would probably often trace it's ancestry to sorcerers. Ironically, these noble descendants, not universally being sorcerers themselves, would have much to fear from sorcerers, and would probably persecute them in a manner consistent with 1600's witch hunts.
#9 nightmare_scenario Sep 16, 2007 16:28:53	You make a good point about craftsman, at least the modern ones, rarely if ever becoming political powers. I would like to propose that this is not because of an inherent "nerdiness" but rather the "job mentality" of the modern world. A craftsman today is advised to get a degree and get a job, thus becoming a subservient part of a corporation, not likely to become a leading force. If you take an independent craftsman, say a metalsmith, with a unique skill to his area (only guy around who can make a steel axe) and a vendetta (say orcs kill his child?), what's to say this individual wouldn't become a political power? I'll point out a work of fiction, the "Eye of the World" series and Lord Perrin Aybara as an example. All you really need is an independent, aggressive craftsman with a strong motivation. Now, in my example, Perrin really has nothing unique about his craft (blacksmith). But if he were the only man capable of forging a steel axe...well then, who's to say he wouldn't lead a mob on an orc-slaughter? Hand out a few axes and go hacking. For a wizard, whose magical abilities grant a far greater advantage than an average craftsman, the effect is more pronounced. An independent wizard, with power but not great power, could easily gather up a mob...dominate local trade, if so inclined...or, just as easily live in isolation. I propose, however, with the flashy nature of magic, a wizard with a decent charisma score, and being unique as a wizard, would easily gather a following or attract the interest of a greater political or corporate entity as he's showing off trying to pick up chicks in town. Get a leg up, get a political office? Get disgruntled and maybe even branch off and make his own corporate entity? I would also like to point out that the really big nerds, Bill Gates for example, have become political entities. As have all major crafting or production trades with a highly-desired resource (oil companies, anyone? car manufacturers? Weapons contractors?).
#10 novem Sep 17, 2007 6:43:52	Several comments: 1.) As Aelryinth noted, the Ring of Sustenance would radically change the outcome of the wars in the future. Society, our greatest evolutionary advantage after the opposable thumb and the capacity to reason logically, allows most of us to go on with our lives, taking more from our species than we give. This is good, because, every generation, many genii show up who will contribute radically more than they consume. Imagine, for a moment, a society that could practically eliminate 1 kind of consumption, drastically reducing the economic burden! Every little contribution to society would now be more so, just by the virtue of a less taxing system. 2.) If we are (and we might as well) going to assume that the world is the Fourth Edition "Points of Light" view (a logical perspective) than one cannot underestimate the Importance of Cavalry. Goblins will do especially well due to their racial connections with Worgs. However, in this game, Cavalry is a very flexible term. Cities will have their own Air Forces, Flying Carpets mounted with wand-wielders, Dorje-wielders, and the occasional Ranger or Arcane Archer; and the cities will have riders of Dragonnels, Hippogriffs, Gryphon's, etc., as Interceptors; and Dragon Riders for heavy bombers. Naval Combat will be equally influenced by magic. When the occasional mass battle does happen (and, with all this faction infighting, one can assume they will happen often) , The battlefield will consist of Archers, Cavalry, Mage Units, entire squads of Experts trained with UMD/UPD, monsters, and magical constructs such as Golems. Armies may capture Lycanthropes and offer volunteers payment if they become one, unleashing Lycanthropic Hordes to battle. 3.) One cannot discount technology. Though progress will inevitably be slower, the benefits offered by High Tech are such that all societies will want them. Technologies such as the gun shift the power towards the people (though the Mages and Artisans and Skilled Professionals are already so powerful, guns are no threat to them). Guns, now easily crafted with Greater Fabricate and Psionic Greater Fabricate, can make a single battalion of peasants an effective force on the battlefield (note: because of the severe offensive power being tossed around, and the all-around patheticness of early Firearms, they will not be anyones ideal- but at least they can do something). Using the ideas mentioned here and below has inspired me to create a new campaign. Thank You.
#11 patrick_draken-korin Sep 17, 2007 14:34:05	2k for a ring of sustenance. That's good. 4k for an unslotted charm of sustenance (say 5k or 6k if you're feeling restrictive) is great (well, for higher level characters). Considering that officials would want to maximize their efficiency, all low-mid level NPC's of any importance to their society would likely have a ring of sustenance. Colleges and universities, where knowledge and technological applications are developed? A free ring of sustenance with tenure. Mayors or military commanders and their staff, wealthy artists/entertainers, merchants & tradesmen that are important to their guilds... The ring of sustenance (and derivative items) should be the most common magic items in wealthy community/nation. ------ While it's quite reasonable to have elves suffers low birth rate (considering their long lifespan), another option is to take the opposite path. Elves have children nearly as often as humans. But, that low constitution score... only one in say 10 elves reaches maturity at 110 years. Have the elves hit puberty at around 16-19 (about 6 years after humans) with them appearing much the same as a human for growth rate, but for them puberty is a much more dangerous change; they either develop their more stable and long term lifespan (and sleep patterns) or die between the age of 20 and 90. And that's with whatever magical and mundane knowledge they have of medicine. Why do elves have that whole envying humans of their children thing? Because their own die so readily, or simply can't age the way "true elves" do. For nastier elves (drow, and evil communities of surface elves) "tainted" elven children, those that show signs of aging at the human rate, are slain. Of course this throws out some of the current rules regarding elves, but many people view them as unrealistic anyways. It also sort of makes the whole half-elf thing more reasonable (most full-blooded elven children don't live to be 200 anyway, so half-elves are better than nothing). Hmm. You could even go with the idea that surface elves (non-drow, non-aquatic) don't develop their applicable subrace until after the trials of elven puberty*. *And I only just remembered vulcans, the elves of Star Trek, don't they have something like this? Not enough of a trekkie to remember the details though. eh. How this would affect elves and empire building? The elven populations would match that of the humans, though only a few would have that long term perspective and etcetera. this would mean that they'd have the people to match humans on a strictly numbers problem, though many would be living out the last days of their live and know it. These elves would be more "human" than humans, trying to make up for the long life that they know they can't have. #&*%, did I just create another elven subrace? Okay I'll drop this point, I've wandered so far off on a tangent that this doesn't really work off of core rules very much any more. ---- Dwarves? I'm not so certain on your take about their lack of agriculture. First of all, mountain highlands are tough to farm, but there are also low-land river valleys in many mountain ranges, and these would fall under dwarven control as well. Then there are the mushroom forests that can be grown underground. "Where do dwarves get their wood?" is a major question to consider, as many tools/structures either require wood as part of their construction or as part of the process. Sufficiently woody Mushroom forests or sufficiently treed lowland valleys can both serve as the answer (and neither is much of a stretch in a fantasy setting). All of a sudden the dwarves no longer need to import food or wood, and their exports (the finest unenhanced weapons available, seems a likely sales pitch) become pure profit to fund magical item development (further profit). Note also that dwarves and gnomes are more closely related than gnomes and humans (and no I don't mean the krynnish grey gem and whatnot). Dwarves and gnomes are both in Races of Stone, while humans and halflings are in Races of Destiny, which sort of defines them as being related more closely. While gnomes would manage close contact with human civilizations, they'd be the ones to have closest contact with the dwarves as well, and they'd interact as readily as humans and halflings. ------ I've never considered orcs to work as hunter-gatherers or as herdsmen, roaming about. I've always considered them to be more like the Norsemen acting as viking raiders; their women and children farm (or ranch) at home while the men form war parties and go marauding. Then during the winter months the orcs return home to show off the wealth gathered, which is traded among villages to make up for necessities they are lacking and to restock raiding equipment. During the raiding months, some few orcs would also act as merchants to purchase other things, though their contact would mostly be with drow, goblins, duergar, ogres and other monstrous power centers. This would mean that the orcs would be very likely to come in contact diseases regularly, letting them deal with them and then (after developing a resistance), spread them to other races. Those staying at home would provide the agricultural basis for their society, while their raiding would provide only a fluctuating income. Note also that though orcs will show little skill at developing technologies, magical or mundane, they'll not fall far behind because their constant raiding allows regular theft of advancements. ------ I'm checking my library system over the net immediately to put Guns, Germs and Steel on order. Thanks for the heads up!
#12 locustechpriest Sep 17, 2007 20:20:31	Honestly, I don't think a Ring of Sustenance will have a great impact upon nations, cultures, and societies. If you think about it, no commoner will be able to afford one. If they make a point to save every last copper, that amounts to about one gold piece per month. Eight generations later Gregory Bison VII gets a ring. This is entirely an adventurer type of thing, because anyone in a normal field who can afford one would prefer to taste his food, and doesn't need to do hard manual labor for an additional six hours to make ends meet. The only widespread application that I see is military. The phrase, "An army marches on it's stomach," fits well here. Imagine a legion that sleeps for four hours (two watches of half your army is incredible for security), has no need to wait for supplies, and if you play your cards right, has complete dependency upon the crown. These rings are guaranteed to be addicting, and after a few years a person would probably be completely dependent upon its effects. If you think about it, your digestive tract has not been used at all. I don't know the specifics, but I would guess that those organs have shut down by then. A crafty leader will key the rings to deactivate given a uniquely designed "execution" spell. You fight, or you die; 'cause King Leo knows your twelve digit number, and he's not afraid to use it! Yes, I agree. Magic makes an excellent tool for fleshing out an exciting game world. The more creative the better. But I have distracted us thoroughly from the topic...
#13 Slagger_the_Chuul Sep 19, 2007 4:02:20	All this for 2K gp. Leave all your 'common' cares and worries behind, and be immune to caring about the worries of the common man, being above the dire threats of famine and drought. True, but if you want to change a whole society, you don't use the ring of sustenance; you use something like the incredibly efficient field provisions box. For 2,000 gp, you have an item that can feed fifteen people per day. Split between those fifteen people across a working life of perhaps 18-20 years, and the average cost of providing healthy food and clean water is only a couple of copper pieces per day. And that's only covering their working life; the box can also provide for those same people during their childhood and old age, and when they eventually die, their investment passes on to the next generation free of charge. This says nothing of the other benefits, like removing the restrictions of working to maintain a food source or controlling supply. The only hurdle is covering the initial cost of the field provisions box, which can easily pay for itself within the first few years just through the saving on food.
#14 basedeltazero Sep 20, 2007 22:39:30	A lot of the most 'useless' magic items end up seeming drastic when applied on a large scale... however, adjusting them for more rational results aids significantly. (I.E - the Ring of Sustenance only works so long... (and it's not 'fail safe'). Dwarvish rune magic (presumably the only kind of arcane magic a dwarf would use) is static and changes as slowly as language, meaning that dwarves will fall behind, no matter how much more advanced than humans they are. First of all, dwarves use all kinds of arcane magic, they just particularly like rune magic. Secondly, I seriously doubt the primary limitation on its advancement is language. The thing about gnomes and halflings is that they are content to integrate themselves within human society, and their culture is much less distinct than elf or dwarf culture. One rarely hears of a gnome or halfling warlord carving out an empire. In the end, gnomes and halflings consider themselves a part of human culture. Although a gnome or halfling may become a powerful official (or even a leader) in a human government, he will still represent a human population in that position. True for halflings - though they don't really integrate themselves into human society, they sort of live on the edges, stealing from them and moving on before getting caught. (Like the travelers). Gnomes, on the other hand, are a completely separate society - and a highly insular, highly insular one. They're also brilliant. They've canonically created things that, while the other races might have them, they require magic to create - the gnomes have done it without. Magic may be a form of technology, but it's not the same. Magic has precision - it can manipulate on a small scale, in the exact way you want. It also works with a minimum of tools. Technology, on the other hand, has raw power. Pulsenot withstanding, magic is no match for modern weapons. Flying soldiers are a pathetic substitute for air power. The spell allows a speed of 28.8 kilometers per hour, with an awe-inspiring range of a quarter kilometer when first acquired, and a ceiling of around 80 meters - even that is risky. It's true 'safety range is 24 meters. It is an inferior (though more reliable) method of transport than the Wright Flyer Overland Flight does a little better - though its max speed of 19.2 KM/H is worse, it has a far superior range of 153 kilometers per hour. It suffers the ceiling limitations, however (though ballistic trajectories are possible). Teleport is great, but realistically, it moves, at first, 4 people at a 'rate' of 60 kilometers per hour. Greater Teleport is just a no-limits fallacy. And give me an MRLS over a Meteor Swarm any day. In less killing-related situations, I'd take a copier over endless scrolls of Amanuensis. The point is... technology is relevant.
#15 aubri Sep 21, 2007 8:21:40	Food is an utter luxury. You only eat if you want to, since you are never hungry. So you never have to put up with poor food, and never have to spend money on food and drink unless you want to, and likely only then if it is of the highest quality. You never have to haul around rations or the like, either, which on longer journeys saves a lot of weight and space. On the other hand, you could take a page from "Enertron" in Chrono Trigger: "HP/MP restored! ...but you're still hungry." Your body is designed to process food continuously. I'd compare having the Ring of Sustenance on to being fed by IV -- it works, but it's not very comfortable. Handy when you're on the road, in a dungeon, etc. but not something you'd want to make a way of life.
#16 aelryinth Sep 23, 2007 10:57:42	On the other hand, you could take a page from "Enertron" in Chrono Trigger: "HP/MP restored! ...but you're still hungry." Your body is designed to process food continuously. I'd compare having the Ring of Sustenance on to being fed by IV -- it works, but it's not very comfortable. Handy when you're on the road, in a dungeon, etc. but not something you'd want to make a way of life. The 'not eating' side effects of the Ring of Sustenance are open to interpretation. The magic item does NOT describe any physical drawbacks for wearing one...and that would include atrophy of the internal organs. Doing so would make a Ring almost a cursed item, because if you wore it too long, then you would starve to death when you took it off because of your inability to process food. As the item doesn't say this happens, I presume that as a minor side-effect it keeps your digestive systems in place, probably 'fooling' them into thinking they are being used. Maybe it actually creates 'pure food' on a continual basis, so your guts are always in use. The Field Provisions box is an excellent 'family' item, much nicer then the Ring, which is geared towards maximizing individual independence. The Box would liberate a family from the starvation/sustenance cycle, which would be of immense help in being able to expand their labors and productivity (now ALL food raised is for profit) at the cost of having to endure a lot of identical meals (better then starving). This works fine until you realize that acquiring one of these two items (box or ring) would logically be the goals of a huge number of the population, and the ability to produce that many of either would likely just not be there. On the other hand, once just a few of these get into play, the additional time/freedom allows more scholarship/study time, which would increase the number of low level spellcasters or artificers or magewrights, creating a slowly increasing ripple effect. As we presume magic items last until destroyed, making just one Box or Ring can have a profound impact over dozens of generations. Going from making mass food prodution to keep yourselves and your family alive, to being able to specialize in high value consumables, get educated, and/or develop crafts is a massive boon to any family. I like the idea above, that any of the wealthier members of society would likely see the acquisition of a Ring of Sustenance as a privilege marking their status as above the common man. Not having to fill your stomach and go to the header seems the very essence of the wealthy ideal. Perhaps you save your funds for a truly fine meal 1/5 days, truly enjoying your food. Here's another way to address how the nobility might look upon the need for food. ---------------------------------------- The Binging Stone Cost: 500 GP Requirements: Create Food and Water, 1 day, 250 gp, 20 xp This polished stone of indeterminate make (although petosky seems favored) stores large amounts of food and water, and doles them out to the wearer over time. At any time, a Binging Stone holds up to 30 days of food and water. A Binging stone is filled by eating and drinking to excess. The extra food is whisked away into the stone and 'saved' until it is needed. Once the stone is full, the wearer loses all appetite and thirst until at least one day is open on the stone. It takes 24 hours to attune a Binging Stone to an individual user. "Filled" binging stones lose their 'food' if passed to a different user, although there is believed to be a slighty more expensive variant (1000 gp) that is passable between different people. While nominally useful in allowing people to eat during times of plenty and fast during times of harshness, binging stones get their name from the way nobles and merchants use them to gorge themselves on fine foods at intervals, rather then eating every day. Since the stones measure out the amount they dole based on need, they also serve as an 'automatic' weight control tool. A person wearing a binging stone will quickly start to lose weight as the stone provides nutrition, but the body first uses up its unneeded fat stores before the stone starts supplying rebuilding mass. Thus, famous gluttons like to acquire several of the stones and 'fill' them repeatedly, swapping stones between themselves to 'wipe' them and allow them to keep on eating. This odious and wasteful practice inevitably leads to darker fetishes and is highly frowned on in society. The stones that do keep their 'fill' are sometimes used in a support fashion by the overly busy and ascetic. Businesses of professional eaters fill the stones by overindulgence (and often have sidelines as food critics) and sell or swap them off to people who don't want to take the time to eat. Seen as a poor man's Ring of Sustenance, Binging Stones are often regarded more as a tool to indulge the gluttonous then a viable toy, but they do see usage among the set who like to eat, but often have to go days on poor meals they'd rather not. Being able to greatly enjoy a very large meal of good food rather then several days or weeks of poor food is seen as an excellent tradeoff for the price. ---------------- I would find it very, very odd if the noble class in any 'true' magical world, with widely available items, did not equip each and every member of the family with Rings of Sustenance. The cost is trivial, it assures every member of the household is always well-fed, watered, of high energy level, and capable of doing more per day then any commoner. Even in the worst of times, the noble does not have to worry about mundane concerns and can devote themselves to whatever is needed. This also greatly reduces the burden of a less-productive noble family upon society. The acquiring of Sustenance to liberate you from 'common concerns' likely would change your status in society. I use the term 'Independent' to convey that fact. Mundane matters are no longer your concern...you are free from grubbing in the dirt and now can devote yourself to what YOU want to do, instead of what Nature wants you to do. The ring is probably the sign of great liberation. I simply cannot picture someone like a wizard, who needs all the study time possible, disdains sleep, doesn't want to be bothered by having to eat or drink, and has magical power, from NOT acquiring Sustenance. ===Aelryinth
#17 zombiegleemax Sep 23, 2007 19:43:12	Why all the focus on rings of sustenance? Probably a result of the way posts stack up on this board, but I'll give my thoughts on the subject. Like any other spell-based service, it costs too much, and spellcasting services could be put to better use. Spell costs are measured in gold pieces, a level 1 spell costs 10 gp, and untrained laborers only earn 1 sp (.1 gp) per day. That means that a single casting of a level 1 spell represents 20 weeks' wages for an untrained laborer. The level 3 spell create food and water costs 150 gp to cast, that's 300 weeks, or 6 years of labor. Thus, 3 days of magically created food for a single peasant costs 6 years of work from that same peasant. The premiums on magic items are similarly prohibitive. Magical food production is not viable. Sure, you can have a magic item that has been in the family for generation because way back someone saved up money or did a favor for an adventurer or wizard, but that is an exception, not the rule. Also, populations tend to grow, and families tend to get bigger, so magic items that create food will not be able to sustain households forever. Sure, a noble family may pride themselves on not having to rely on their peasantry, but. In addition, without the peasantry this noble family has no way to accrue food surplus, which is the most common form of wealth. Now, magically-assisted food production is. A +2 set of farming tools may cost 400 gp, but such a set of tools would probably only be found on a government-run or privately-owned plot of land, and only used by hired workers under strict supervision. It's hard to approximate the value in terms of food production, but if we assume the Profession check result is proportional to the amount of food produced, we can say that such a set of tools increases productivity by 15-20%. That's what really matters, and what makes a difference, because it means your population can grow that much faster. Guns, Germs, and Steel's conclusion is that very small advantages over very large periods of time lead to very big trends, and this is a perfect example of that. On the topic of mages being leaders: no armor and low Fortitude saves. Mages are easy targets for assassins and poisoning. Also, spellcasting has little to do with how well you can rule. Level 20 fighter or level 20 mage, your Diplomacy checks are only based on your Charisma score, your ranks, and your enhancement bonuses (and the differences between magic items and spells are almost nil, enhancement bonuses don't stack). @aelryinth: I didn't say anything about humans because we already know how human society turned out. I mentioned that in the first post. However, that is a valid point about the impact of human specialization. @BaseDeltaZero: Very good points here. However, I've gone by the world expressed in the D&D rules. Magic is what smart people do, alchemy is what nonmagical smart people do, and Crafting is what nonmagical non-educated smart people do. If you want to play a steampunk or Final Fantasy style of setting, feel free to apply this to it.
#18 echelon_house Sep 25, 2007 1:02:27	I love this post so hard. I'm an anthropology major, and Guns, Germs, and Steel is one of my favorite books. I have a couple disagreements, though, both with the original post and with some of the things other people are saying. I'll number them because I'm disorganized and it'll help me keep my thoughts together. So, in no particular order: 1) Unfortunately, all the guidebooks have very little emphasis on things outside of adventuring. For example, almost all plants and animals are monsters to be slain, but even in the real medieval Europe people weren't constantly fighting giant slavering monsters - let alone in the modern world! And even though we're given a large number of animals, there are almost no plant beyond the man-eating or sentient variety. No bithzala trees with their strangely-shaped fruit, no guinnati ferns with their iridescent blue stalks, etc. Anything we're given is solely because it has some practical function in a campaign: this weed makes this poison, this unicorn horn is good for medicine. Frankly, if we want to make a more realistic role-playing world we're going to have to discount a lot of canon and make up stuff on our own. 2) On that note, most of the races as presented in D&D are frankly nonsensical. Any group of people who are either incapable of or refuse to live outside of one specific ecological region would never be able to compete with humans, who can live anywhere. Dwarves, gnomes, and elves would all have gone extinct. There has never been any human tribe, ever, that lived solely in underground tunnels like dwarves and gnomes. Such a civilization would never exist in the first place because of how much easier it is to build a house than to carve one into a mountainside. And before anyone mentions the Anasazi - that was due to specific cultural and ecological factors. Dwarves and gnomes are both presented as widespread, advanced civilizations creating their homes using medieval-era tools. Similiarly, human societies that live in forests or jungles *do* exist, but not anything like elves - they don't form large standing armies with well-trained archers, for example. They don't build elaborate cities in the treetops. If we're staying true to real life they should have no access to metal except through trade, which would be relatively limited. Their agricultural practices would be mainly private gardens capable of producing enough food to feed one family for a season, max. Most likely the majority of their diet would be through hunting or gathering, which means any given population would be small. Village level, not city level. And certainly not state level! There would be no organized government past the unofficial leader of the village. Combine this with limited growing spaces/hunted animal populations and you're looking at constant low level war with other nearby populations. Elves would *not* have a long life span. And we're never really given much information about orcs at all, beyond "they're evil! Kill them!" Classic halflings more along the lines of LOTR are much more acceptable, though biologically their size isn't really possible for an advanced society. As quiet farmers and herders they work well, and civilizations like theirs are widespread. As agile little thieves they would not be tolerated by human society and would be forced into a marginalized position, which would force them to steal even more to survive, creating a feedback loop of prejudice. My point: none of the other races as presented could compete with humans. This either requires us to get rid of humans or alter all the other races to make them much more adaptive, which would require taking away a lot of what makes them distinctive. 3) Another problem is that of variety. No world should have 5,000 different large animal species in any given area ala the Monster Manual. Any ecological area should have more herbivores than carnivores, and most of these animals should be significantly smaller than humans. Generally speaking, you're looking at one predator for every hundred prey. A dozen T-Rexes in one five-mile area are not possible. 1 T-Rex, 1 Megalosaurus, 1 Spinosaurus, and a pack of velociraptors are also not possible in that same area. This is why large predators are often solitary. 4) Speaking of animals, most of them are not domesticable. Don't start thinking you could ride a moose into battle. Very, very few plants and even fewer animals have been successfully domesticated. Diamond devotes an entire chapter in his book to this topic, and I can't remember it off-hand. I may dig out my old copy and look it up later.
#19 roir1k Sep 25, 2007 19:40:41	A complement to _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ is _Magical Medieval Society_ by Expeditious Retreat Press-- about to go into it's second printing, it takes a fairly serious look at the impact of magic on your standard feudal society. It is also a *must* read for a self respecting GM. Once you start considering the impact of your spellcasters, you realize that so few of your casters should be adventuring-- it's not worth it. Lords and cities want those people safe and sound, home healing the sick, building the lamps, enchanting the items, laying wards. If out of 1000 of your people there are 10 arcane and 10 divine casters, I would expect that fully 18 or 19 of those casters are going to be engaged by the Powers that Be-- voluntarily or enslaved. With a low percentage of casters, what will advancement and development be like? That really will drive the magic in your world, and it's not often considered: what percentage of your population has the potential to work magic, and how is that percentage treated by the rest? How is that knowledge passed from generation to generation? Big questions, but they will be as meaningful as the climates and geography you establish.
#20 pad300 Sep 30, 2007 0:33:56	As a suggestion - gnomes have a competitor for ruling the world... Kobolds from Races of the Dragon (RoD) Positives 1) Very fast reproduction, without mental stat penalties 2) Adulthood attained at 6 years old. Middle aged at 60. Productive lifespan ~ 2x human. 3) "...can eat almost anything. They can metabolize many forms of organic matter, including bark, bones, dirt, leather and shells. A tribe of kobolds that is short on provisions feeds its youngest members whatever they can eat" p40, RoD. Food supplies- not a problem. Particularly in hot climates where their cold-blooded metabolism provides them with a ridiculous advantage of only eating 1/3 as much "A kobold who inhabits a region with a temperature of 40F or above for 24 hours can go for another three days after that time before having to eat normally" P39 RoD 4) "This draconic heritage invigorates kobold culture with an indomitable will to endure any hardship...A powerful, self-sacrificing instinct rules kobolds whenever their tribe is endangered. Kobolds readily struggle against impossible odds or unconquerable foes simply to buy time or coordinate a diversion... This selfless behavior carries over into everyday life. Expansion of the tribe is more important than any personal accomplishments, and any personal accomplishments should advance the tribe. Success of the tribe is personal success." P41 RoD. " Kobolds are a hardworking race, easily rivaling dwarves for productivity...This work ethic permeates every level of magical and technological advancement in kobold society. From planning to execution, kobolds work competently and with amazing speed.". RoD p42. They are genetically, self-sacrificing, hardworking, committed, and faithful to their fellows. No shirking, no betraying their own, minimal internal sabotage and backstabbing. Discipline and Organization, they all have it... 5) Arcane access. The Draconic rite of Passage, Rod P43, offers ANY kobold some arcane capability. The greater Draconic rite of Passage, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a offer significant arcane power to kobold sorcerers. 6) Dragonwrought kobolds. This feat, as presented on RoD pg 100, and elaborated on pg 39, gives kobolds a much higher percentage of geniuses. The race naturally produces intelligent, wise, charismatic leaders, over a lifetime, such a kobold gets an effective +3 to int, cha, wis, and is not incapacitated (or even die young) by reduced physical ability scores. Such kobolds also live a very long time naturally, (a minimum of 120+5*Cha years, 5 * Cha years after full development). Unlike human geniuses, they get more effective with age, not less (look at Fields medals winners, Noble prize winners, and the age at which they did their great work). Disadvantages 1) Lower constitution and physical strength. (even relative to gnomes).
#21 aubri Sep 30, 2007 11:41:06	Once you start considering the impact of your spellcasters, you realize that so few of your casters should be adventuring-- it's not worth it. Lords and cities want those people safe and sound, home healing the sick, building the lamps, enchanting the items, laying wards. If out of 1000 of your people there are 10 arcane and 10 divine casters, I would expect that fully 18 or 19 of those casters are going to be engaged by the Powers that Be-- voluntarily or enslaved. With a low percentage of casters, what will advancement and development be like? The way I figure it, that's why wizards build towers -- to keep out all the supplicants so they can get some damned work done! I'm trying to explore the mysteries of the universe in here! Get off my lawn! That said, of course adventurers of ANY stripe are vanishingly rare. That's why we play them, after all. A wizard could certainly make a living as the court wizard for a powerful king; a fighter could also be the captain of the guard for a large city. Adventurers are aberrations by definition (not capital-A Aberrations, silly) but also form a necessary sector of the population... especially if you go with the "points of light" concept.
#22 aelryinth Sep 30, 2007 13:50:42	A ring of sustenance's advantages go beyond mere replacement of food. They provide FREEDOM from the need for food. They also approximately add 50% to double the amount of time to labor/work/learn per day. So not only do they not need to work to feed themselves, they can work to feed 1.5 to 2x as many other people (and the food they used to consume can now go to another person). This is considerably better then a 5 to 15% productivity gain. Any method of providing food early to a growing society results in a 1-2 generation head start on population, which, given time, becomes immensely important. If family X can sustain 15 people, and family Y can only sustain 5, family X is going to rapidly grow in power and influence by sheer force of numbers. Family X, with said food production, also has a powerful buffer against famine for its core population in times of need. Also, be aware that the 'cost' of spells is 'market value' if someone wants to buy them. It actually does not cost a spellcaster much of anything to cast these spells, and the making of a magical food item has to have its cost dispersed across multiple people, driving the cost per person down as well. thus, if you want to 'buy' a spell, that is completely different then if you want to 'cast' a spell. Likewise, making magic items to shore up the productivity of your vassals is much cheaper then buying them to do the same thing. XP for an adventurous sort is relatively easy to come by. BTW, wizards have 'no armor' the same way fighters have 'no armor'. It's just they cast a spell to put theirs on, and its invisible. Fighters have to wear these hulking suits of metal. Wizards also have spells to purify food and detect poison. Fighters have a better chance to survive being poisoned, but wizards have a much harder time being poisoned at all...and are more like to be armored 'all the time' then a fighter is. Lastly, jungle dwelling human tribes don't make a good analogy for elves. Remember, elves DO live a long time...they are a magical race that likely relies on magic to ward off the diseases that plague sturdier races, and their elders live long enough to get the levels that enable them to do that. They also have the potential to have 6+ generations of the same tribe alive at one time, and all of them be productive and viable, something no human tribe can ever claim. Thus, a society far different then human tribalism is likely to evolve from the elves. Each generation gets taught from people with hundreds of years of experience, knowledge is preserved much better, and the 'bar' for what is minimum knowledge advances accordingly (the difference between an elven 'hunter' and human 'hunter' could be seen as analogous to a 'mathematician' from the Greek era and a 'mathematician' today...our standard of knowledge starts so much higher then it did back then. What they would consider 'advanced knowledge', almost mystical, like algebra, we teach our school kids). Also note that dwarves and gnomes prefer to live in tunnel systems, they are not OBLIGATED to do so. The fact does remain that with stonecunning, they are incredibly, naturally talented at working with stone and metal as a people, and will gravitate towards those areas as a racial specialty. It doesn't mean that they can't survive in forests and along waterways, but it means that in these areas they are going to overcome the opposition quickly, and advance markedly fast along technological lines that fall into their racial proclivity. Thus, they are going to be better miners, better metallurgists, better at working with stone (and thus fortifications), better smiths...all the things we consider as tools and indicators of an advanced society. Living in tunnels is a double use of their mining ability, turning the things that advance their society into a protective tool and shelter against the elements...another advancement. Developing the means to stay in food while also being able to weather the worst of the elements in relative safety and without societal problems (as well as evolving the ability to see in the dark!) gives them another astounding racial advantage. Lastly, while Races of the Dragon plays up kobolds to make them seem viable, remember that they are handicapped by their Lawful Evil mindset. While the 'drones' are perfectly willing to kill themselves for the tribe, their leaders are perfectly willing to kill one another to advance themselves, which is definitely detrimental to long term prosperity...there can be only one on top, and their exceptional individuals, the ones most likely to advance the tribe, are knocking off one another trying to achieve that position. It's not a constant warfare within the tribe, but it is how Evil people would get rid of rivals and those who threaten them. === As for the whole predator thing, remember that adventuring 'hand waves' away much of the monster thing/area/time. IN reality, a dragon might have a territory covering hundreds of square miles...but the adventurers may well blunder into it without having to search days for it, because searching is boring. Likewise, if there's a T-rex in the area, they are going to find it quickly, and then another wandering one looking for a territory might well stumble onto them, too. Predators do wander, looking for their own territory, and multiple carnivores can exist as long as they prey on different strata. If they prey on the same things, then no, one of them has to go, and it will likely be the smaller ones. Seriously, if we were discussing ecology in a magical world, giant vermin swarms would rule the world. They'd mindlessly out-eat anything, what could control them? all they do is eat, reproduce, defend territory, and repeat. What exactly does keep a giant ant hive under control? What about giant wasps? I posit in any world with giant vermin around, giant vermin would rapidly find their way onto dinner plates, and be hunted to as close to extinction as possible for any sentient race in the area, or they'll simply reproduce us out of existence. I can imagine the role that giant rats might play in keeping down the population of giant vermin by voraciously consuming their young and eggs before they can grow large enough to be a threat. ===Aelryinth
#23 Daybreaker Sep 30, 2007 15:51:45	This thread is a thing of beauty. I love that book. So forget about those pesky humanoids -- what about the powerhouse races? Dragons, giants, beholders -- how do they affect things? Perhaps many of the things in the somewhat illogically-arranged traditional D&D world exist because of the influence of "higher powers." After all, while the red dragons tend to be somewhat difficult to deal with, the gold dragons are benevolent (if perhaps clandestine in most of their relations with humans) and a little more powerful than the reds. So perhaps you could see the world as really being more of a zoo -- or laboratory, if you prefer -- for some draconic experiment. "Let's see what happens if we put humans and assassin vines in the same test tube." Okay, I'm being silly. But how would the whole germ migration thing be affected by the presence of vast multitudes of beings who actually have more power to influence these things than humans do?
#24 kargush Oct 01, 2007 1:45:08	Interesting. I like the theory, and I do use it, to en extent, in my DnD games. Just a thought: No empires have lasted very long in human history, why should they last longer in DnD? Sure, when the rulers all live for several human generations, they might have a comparatively long-lasting empire, but even so, at some point they're liable to overstretch. Any thoughts?
#25 Chemus Oct 01, 2007 23:50:56	@ aelryinth et. al.: What would be the real effects of a 'ring of sustenance'? No drive to eat means no biological need to produce anything. A 'box of provisions' would do the same thing for a garrisson or extended family. The upshot: if you never had to work to eat, would you work? What about the long-term effects on natural selection? The urge to work is weaker in some than in others, if there is no benefit to working harder, in hard biological terms, the trait will be unlikely to be selected in later generations. Other stuff: I like this discussion; lotsa neat ideas floating about.
#26 zombiegleemax Oct 03, 2007 5:47:27	On that note, most of the races as presented in D&D are frankly nonsensical. Any group of people who are either incapable of or refuse to live outside of one specific ecological region would never be able to compete with humans, who can live anywhere. Dwarves, gnomes, and elves would all have gone extinct. There has never been any human tribe, ever, that lived solely in underground tunnels like dwarves and gnomes. Such a civilization would never exist in the first place because of how much easier it is to build a house than to carve one into a mountainside. And before anyone mentions the Anasazi - that was due to specific cultural and ecological factors. Dwarves and gnomes are both presented as widespread, advanced civilizations creating their homes using medieval-era tools. I got to disagree slightly here. While I agree on the elves, Dwarves, as presented do work -perhaps even better than humans. They simply seem a sensible adaption to differences between the D&D world and ours. The d&d world, after all, is dangerous! Very, very dangerous. Our dark ages were not full of dragons, giants, demons, krakens, etc, etc. Cave systems are defensible in the extreme. As long as there is a source of food, they have a better chance of doing well than humans. Classic halflings more along the lines of LOTR are much more acceptable, though biologically their size isn't really possible for an advanced society. Um...could you elaborate a bit on this? I cannot see any reason why not?
#27 operation_shoestring Oct 03, 2007 21:01:00	Theres a thread, a large one, called The Dungeonomicon. It points out a great many things that are wonky about D&D ethics society and especially economy. Leaving aside sociology for the moment, let's consider the physical sciences: Entropy is *slightly* less of a problem in D&D than it is IRL. There are classes, that upon reaching level 17, CEASE TO AGE. Magic and various materials are consumed, yes, but Magic is *always* replenished. Magic in D&D is like Sunlight for us. An effectively infinitely renewable energy source. (our sun will eventually go out, but for the purposes of you and I and America, it's effectively infinitely renewable). This is why you have ridiculous numbers of high consumption creatures living in areas that should be too small and too poor in energy and biomass to support them. Quite literally: A wizard, or perhaps magical evolution of some sort, did in fact DO IT, and magic continues to sustain these creatures. They don't in fact need to eat anywhere near the amount they should, by IRL biology need to eat to survive. They just find adventurers, and to a lesser degree, townsmen and livestock, tasty. Anyone who has studied a few years of science can tell you that cultivating LIGHT EMITTING fungus for food is a losing proposition. It's expending energy to produce light. Where does that energy come from. You need to expend biomass to convert it to edible fungi, something that, IRL would be a net loss of biomass, and this is made worse by the energy lost to radiating visible light. Acquiring that biomass requires expenditure of considerable energy... which has to be replenished by eating fungi. This is a negative feedback cycle that leads to species extinction. Except the Drow are not extinct, and neither are their fungi. Why? because their fungi soak up magic like real plants soak up sunlight. This is why despite having no good adventurers, raiding Kobolds, or evil wizards occasionally ruining their crops, D&D commoner farmers can survive. because so long as the local cleric/priest/druid/whatever likes them, she will come over and BLESS their crops, allowing fields to stay fertile indefinitely (importation of fertilizer is pretty much unknown in D&D, and this actually MAKES SENSE). In short, everyone in D&D who has access to magic should be thought of as having access to super efficient solar energy in the modern context. Magic is a renewable resource that comes back in ONE NIGHT (unlike forests that take decades to regrow).
#28 toastedamphibian Oct 04, 2007 16:37:05	According to the SRD, a poor meal costs 1 sp. A Box of Provisions feeds 15 people 365 times a year. If we assume that everyone only eats one meal a day, then a Box of Provisions provides food worth (.1gp)(15)(365) or 547.5 gp per year. It would take just over 3.65 years to pay for itself. Perhaps it wouldn't be feasible for your typical commoner to acquire one of these for his family, but I'd think government and corporate entities would be commissioning huge numbers of them. Almost any endeavor that requires a small number of people to be far from the larger population centers could benefit from this. Some examples: 1.Foresting operations 2.Mining operations Both of these remove the necessity of constantly sending supplies overland on horseback long distances to keep them fed, reducing transportation costs. 3.Ocean Voyages On a typical ocean going vessel, a lot of space and weight are used for food. If you equip it with these boxes, you have a lot more space for cargo, or for more troops. You also don't risk starvation or thirst if you get lost. In any of these circumstances (and in many other situations) the provision box would pay for itself very quickly. This obvious utility and profit potential would cause many to be commissioned. The D&D universe being what it is, vast quantities of these would eventually be "Lost" do to theft, war, and raiding, and would have to be replaced. I'm sure that more than a few "Lost" provision boxes would end up in the hands of raiding orcs and in the possession of the kin of retiered soilders/sailors.
#29 hcl Oct 04, 2007 19:56:20	As a suggestion - gnomes have a competitor for ruling the world... Kobolds from Races of the Dragon (RoD) Positives 1) Very fast reproduction, without mental stat penalties 2) Adulthood attained at 6 years old. Middle aged at 60. Productive lifespan ~ 2x human. 3) "...can eat almost anything. They can metabolize many forms of organic matter, including bark, bones, dirt, leather and shells. A tribe of kobolds that is short on provisions feeds its youngest members whatever they can eat" p40, RoD. Food supplies- not a problem. Particularly in hot climates where their cold-blooded metabolism provides them with a ridiculous advantage of only eating 1/3 as much "A kobold who inhabits a region with a temperature of 40F or above for 24 hours can go for another three days after that time before having to eat normally" P39 RoD 4) "This draconic heritage invigorates kobold culture with an indomitable will to endure any hardship...A powerful, self-sacrificing instinct rules kobolds whenever their tribe is endangered. Kobolds readily struggle against impossible odds or unconquerable foes simply to buy time or coordinate a diversion... This selfless behavior carries over into everyday life. Expansion of the tribe is more important than any personal accomplishments, and any personal accomplishments should advance the tribe. Success of the tribe is personal success." P41 RoD. " Kobolds are a hardworking race, easily rivaling dwarves for productivity...This work ethic permeates every level of magical and technological advancement in kobold society. From planning to execution, kobolds work competently and with amazing speed.". RoD p42. They are genetically, self-sacrificing, hardworking, committed, and faithful to their fellows. No shirking, no betraying their own, minimal internal sabotage and backstabbing. Discipline and Organization, they all have it... 5) Arcane access. The Draconic rite of Passage, Rod P43, offers ANY kobold some arcane capability. The greater Draconic rite of Passage, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a offer significant arcane power to kobold sorcerers. 6) Dragonwrought kobolds. This feat, as presented on RoD pg 100, and elaborated on pg 39, gives kobolds a much higher percentage of geniuses. The race naturally produces intelligent, wise, charismatic leaders, over a lifetime, such a kobold gets an effective +3 to int, cha, wis, and is not incapacitated (or even die young) by reduced physical ability scores. Such kobolds also live a very long time naturally, (a minimum of 120+5*Cha years, 5 * Cha years after full development). Unlike human geniuses, they get more effective with age, not less (look at Fields medals winners, Noble prize winners, and the age at which they did their great work). Disadvantages 1) Lower constitution and physical strength. (even relative to gnomes). And they are less than half the size of humans/hobgoblins. Look at who won out when the Germans and Mongols took on the technologically advanced Roman Empire. But honestly if anyone has played Morrowind, more specifically the Telvanni faction, I expect that is how a fantasy world would turn out. High level (especially long lived elven) mages would settle down to do research, make magical items, and mentor the youth. They would naturally be respected and feared (even and especially by one another) and the society would be ruled by a council of high level mages.
#30 Zardnaar Oct 07, 2007 8:35:33	For all we know the Elves could have magical demiplanes where they grow their food. I would imagine Dwarves living like the Swiss and can grow their own food.
#31 loneranger Oct 31, 2007 20:19:54	First of all, I would like to say that GG&S is an excellent book. I love it. It does an excellent job of suggesting an explanation for why some cultures out-develop others: much kudos to Mr Thomar for even thinking of applying it to D&D (I certainly never did!) Everyone should read this book (not just DM's): it's big but fascinating. There have been lots of excellent points raised so far on this thread, all of which I have learned a lot from. But to me, the most important thing to be careful of in this analysis is this: the D&D universe is so radically different from the universe we know, and involves so many factors that our world does not, that it would be fallacious to assume that because something works or applies in the real world that it will automatically work when transferred into the fantastical setting of D&D. And some people touched on this already... Consider these two important factors: 1) 'Monsters'; There are no monsters in the real world... at least not like there are in D&D ;) GG&S didn't (and couldn't) account for how the development of a culture is affected by the proximity of large quantities of aggressive slavering beasts. Nothing stifles the development of a society quite like living constantly under the threat of a Dinosaur invasion... In D&D, humanoids never get to rise to the top of the food chain! They are still prey... What's more, in the D&D universe, humanoids must contend with the agenda and influence of intelligent creatures whose lifespan and power to affect reality FAR exceed their own... dragons, devils, demons, angels, ents, dryads... gods. These are the real powers in the D&D world, and I think that human-kind would be hard pressed to win a war against an army of dragons. In fact, the only reason humanoids survive is because of the next factor: 2) Magic; Magic is the one factor that will completely derail any attempt at comparing our world and the D&D world. Magic breaks every law of science known to humanity. That is why it is so difficult to apply real-world scientific analyses to D&D: D&D breaks the laws of science. Until we in the real world have a way of understanding and expressing magical in-game effects, we will never have a way of comparing real-world scientific studies with the simulated realities we create inside of a campaign. Until we can understand how to teleport from one place to another, or to instantly regenerate wounds, we'll never be able to convert GG&S to D&D. That having been said, there are a few places we can extrapolate... Take diseases: what level is the remove disease spell? 3rd? That's not too high... while of course unaffordable by a peasant under a normal circumstance, in the case of an 'epidemic' I'm sure that any state or lord worth their salt would be willing to subsidize an 'inoculation program' and pay whatever costs are necessary to have the local church cast as many Remove Disease spells as are necessary to prevent an epidemic... not to mention the fact that any paladin or good-aligned cleric worth their salt should be offering the service free of charge. Is that a viable and/or effective solution to a disease epidemic? Does it actually confer a resistance/immunity to the disease? I dunno... maybe not... but maybe so: and just the fact that this option is available changes the whole parameters of GG&S applicability to D&D. So, IMHO: GG&S is a sweet book that offers a very refreshing view on real-world cultural development, and can offer important tools to apply to a D&D world. But D&D is so radically different from the real world that GG&S is not encompassing enough to be considered a sole authority on what can or cannot be in a fantastical setting. Rebuttals?
#32 aelryinth Nov 04, 2007 11:33:38	I agree with part of this presentation in terms of COST vs. PRICE. The COST of casting many/most spells is almost negligible. It costs a cleric NOTHING to cast most healing spells. In short, there is nothing but Opportunity Cost to worry about here...the cleric CAN cast the spell for free. The reason to charge for it is there are likely multiple people who WANT the spell, and some of them are willing to pay for it. But a spellcaster emptying his spells/day casting things for the benefit of the community can have a massive effect. He is not and never will be required to charge for spellcasting. Charging for spells is something you inflict on PC's to moderate the effects of their gold and making sure they don't get free healing at the temple instead of dragging along their own healer. The PC healer isn't collecting 25 gp per spell level from the party for casting cures, now, is he? But he's perfectly within his rights to do so from an NPC, who also has the right to do so from a party. Of course, then you trot out the 'good alignment' argument. This is one of the big arguments I've had with Keith Baker over the Eberron setting. There, the churches don't 'sell healing'...they leave that to the local halflings. The halflings used to barter their healing ability with other clans, but entering the greater world devolved it down to an exchange of gold instead of favors. Somehow, despite the vastly superior healing ability of priests and even adepts, the Dragonmarks dominate magical healing. And if you run across an adept or priest in some small town, he won't sell you healing...also dumb. He has to 'save it' to aid his local parishioners. This makes no sense from an economic standpoint, and precious little from a theological standpoint. By selling magical blessings (in return for Donations to the Sovereign Host, I would be happy to extend their blessings to you), the priest can essentially convert the miracles of his god into a continuing blessing for his community. Every 25 gp for a spell could be used to build new roads, a new school, pay for a teacher, create a reserve of healing wands or magical potions or scrolls, dig new wells, stock an alchemist lab, pay a healer to come live there to take care of people, etc etc etc. The logic falls down. This kind of thing is how you have to determine what a real life spellcaster would do to an economy. The spellcaster's power is worth something...he can accomplish the work of many men over many days in a very short period of time, for Nothing or Next To Nothing (Imagine how fast you could protect a town simply with walls of stone being cast once a day for a month!~). Consider the case of a spellcaster with a Ring of Sustenance and access to Endure Elements. This man has no need for food, water, or shelter, nor even waste disposal facilities. He does not have to work to provide his own basic needs...he is Independent of the ecology. If he decides to take his 10 level spellcasting talents and use them for the benefit of his community, think of all the things he could accomplish. And he does not NEED gold. He could charge gold, in which case nothing would get done because nobody can really afford the things he can do...but he doesn't need to, and simply could go out and get stuff DONE. And if you aren't worried about wealth, volunteering your time and power is at the heart of what it means to be a Good person, is it not? It doesn't have to be all about fighting. Thus, even access to midrange spells (up to 5th level) can have a massive effect on any society. A Royal Wizard whose job is nothing more then to go around to every thorp and village and make sure such steadings have strong stone walls around them could revolutionize the defensibility of a kingdom, especially any realm where monsters and the like can be found. The Healing Domain Reserve feat allows for basically unlimited healing of injured men...infinite ability to turn casualties into walking wounded. Mass healing effects from spells and magical devices are getting more common then ever (Dove's Harp is hugely powerful in this respect...look at the area of the thing. How about Insignia Healing, from the Miniatures Handbook? Heals everyone wearing the Insignia within a MASSIVE area.) Yes, magic would revolutionize and change society a great deal. And those who could command magic and master it the fastest, i.e. the humans of most fantasy fiction, would have an incredible edge on any other force on the planet. ===Aelryinth
#33 talkkno738kno Nov 06, 2007 23:38:38	First of all, I would like to say that GG&S is an excellent book. I love it. It does an excellent job of suggesting an explanation for why some cultures out-develop others: much kudos to Mr Thomar for even thinking of applying it to D&D (I certainly never did!) Everyone should read this book (not just DM's): it's big but fascinating. There have been lots of excellent points raised so far on this thread, all of which I have learned a lot from. But to me, the most important thing to be careful of in this analysis is this: the D&D universe is so radically different from the universe we know, and involves so many factors that our world does not, that it would be fallacious to assume that because something works or applies in the real world that it will automatically work when transferred into the fantastical setting of D&D. And some people touched on this already... Consider these two important factors: 1) 'Monsters'; There are no monsters in the real world... at least not like there are in D&D ;) GG&S didn't (and couldn't) account for how the development of a culture is affected by the proximity of large quantities of aggressive slavering beasts. Nothing stifles the development of a society quite like living constantly under the threat of a Dinosaur invasion... In D&D, humanoids never get to rise to the top of the food chain! They are still prey... What's more, in the D&D universe, humanoids must contend with the agenda and influence of intelligent creatures whose lifespan and power to affect reality FAR exceed their own... dragons, devils, demons, angels, ents, dryads... gods. These are the real powers in the D&D world, and I think that human-kind would be hard pressed to win a war against an army of dragons. In fact, the only reason humanoids survive is because of the next factor: 2) Magic; Magic is the one factor that will completely derail any attempt at comparing our world and the D&D world. Magic breaks every law of science known to humanity. That is why it is so difficult to apply real-world scientific analyses to D&D: D&D breaks the laws of science. Until we in the real world have a way of understanding and expressing magical in-game effects, we will never have a way of comparing real-world scientific studies with the simulated realities we create inside of a campaign. Until we can understand how to teleport from one place to another, or to instantly regenerate wounds, we'll never be able to convert GG&S to D&D. That having been said, there are a few places we can extrapolate... The classical physics perhaps, but you can theorize it involves the manipulation of subatomic particles, which with that ability you can do pretty much anything, with extremely strange rules however. For example teleport could be covered by converting the mass into tachyons which are faster then light particles that travel at perhaps infinite speed...:D However I'm just rambling and being nitpicky, I see your point.
#34 locustechpriest Nov 07, 2007 20:55:25	The average ability of people in DnD is something we should keep in mind. Most people will never have the ability to cast a single spell. Those who do are often limited to 2nd or 3rd level spells. The extremely rare prodigy must not only have the ability, but also the equally rare generosity that would lead her to give all she has with no thought of reward in order to accomplish the world-changing effects that are arguably possible. While I cannot begin to speak for elves or dwarves, we can observe human behavior here on Earth rather closely. Even people who are good-natured do not tend to give everything they possess. While there is no equivalent to Rings of Sustenance and endure elements, there are people so well off that they needn't worry about their needs. Some do give all that they have, but it is unspeakably rare. Even those gifts, in the greater scope, have not eliminated hunger across the globe, wiped out all disease and war, or created any Utopian society that I am aware of. While perfect parallels are not possible, it would not be absurd to say that the same principle is preventing magic from transforming the DnD worlds as is preventing movie stars and technology from transforming the real world.
#35 aelryinth Nov 12, 2007 18:28:48	The average ability of people in DnD is something we should keep in mind. Most people will never have the ability to cast a single spell. Those who do are often limited to 2nd or 3rd level spells. The extremely rare prodigy must not only have the ability, but also the equally rare generosity that would lead her to give all she has with no thought of reward in order to accomplish the world-changing effects that are arguably possible. While I cannot begin to speak for elves or dwarves, we can observe human behavior here on Earth rather closely. Even people who are good-natured do not tend to give everything they possess. While there is no equivalent to Rings of Sustenance and endure elements, there are people so well off that they needn't worry about their needs. Some do give all that they have, but it is unspeakably rare. Even those gifts, in the greater scope, have not eliminated hunger across the globe, wiped out all disease and war, or created any Utopian society that I am aware of. While perfect parallels are not possible, it would not be absurd to say that the same principle is preventing magic from transforming the DnD worlds as is preventing movie stars and technology from transforming the real world. Average ability isn't the key. Even getting to midrange ability is extremely powerful. Just look at the potential power of being able to cast two walls/stone in a day. You could put barriers worthy of a royal castle around just about any small town...and all by yourself. If it takes a week or two per town, or a month, so what? It didn't 'cost' the town a dime, yet their defenses and hence survivability just got a HUGE shot in the arm. "Rich" people in today's world are not the equivalent of 'powerful' people in a magical world. It takes money to make money to get stuff done, even for a philanthropist. He CANNOT ignore the money issue, and he's still got to think of things like a legacy, providing for an inheritance, keeping the money coming. A midrange spellcaster has no such worries. He IS his wealth. He doesn't NEED money (rich people DO need money...lots and lots of money). People throw money at him to get him to do the things he can do, most of which have Zero personal Cost attached to them. If he decides not to charge them, that IS his right...and doing so could change the world remarkably. ===Aelryinth
#36 farmer_tom_cotton Nov 14, 2007 17:51:47	Cultures, in general, survive by how much energy (or excess energy) they produce. If you can produce excess food, you are only limited by the number of children you can have. So if people die from guns, germs or steel you can have more, and quickly(I've read the book and it makes good points). Or if you don't have to worry about the basic needs you can learn to make better Guns, Germs or Steel. And some of a society's success is luck. If you only have corn available when wheat is available to someone else (you get more energy from wheat, by they way). As it goes with the fantasy races. Elves live a long, long, (man will they ever die) long time. So the reproductive rate is most likely very slow. They have a lot of magic energy to use but don't have to use it on a large population. And if you have a couple of hundred years to be a farmer, you could get a good handle on the job. The biggest problem for them would be disease. But with a small population divine casting can take care of that. A Dwarf population falls like elves. They live a long time, and work like, well a dwarf in a mine. Lots of energy there. And the craft skills would be wanted in almost all other cultures. Metal working alone would give them money to spare. And that money would mean more food and energy. Humans are the norm in D&D. They don't live to long but they reproduce regularly. And they adapt and cooperate with each other. The strongest cultures produce high energy products like wheat and livestock. So they outgrow the other races. Orcs use up a lot of energy fighting each other. While they breed like rabbits they don't really contribute to the culture. I think the D&D races are pretty good where they fall in society size. Energy is power. Wait it really is!!!
#37 shaftiel Nov 18, 2007 22:24:48	Consider these two important factors: 1) 'Monsters'; There are no monsters in the real world... at least not like there are in D&D ;) GG&S didn't (and couldn't) account for how the development of a culture is affected by the proximity of large quantities of aggressive slavering beasts. Nothing stifles the development of a society quite like living constantly under the threat of a Dinosaur invasion... In D&D, humanoids never get to rise to the top of the food chain! They are still prey... Actually, there was a society in RL that lived like this, and they did quite well for themselves... China. You can summarize many hundreds of years of Chinese history as "constant fear of invasion by the barbarians to the north." It also makes for an interesting campaign setting. Say a dragon leads a horde of orcs to invade a large country... and unlike the typical D&D scenario, not only conquers it, but holds on to it. It's reasonable to say that the dragon wouldn't want to personally run the day-to-day administration, so he'd leave the existing government mainly intact, and a hundred years later it would be similar to the pre-invasion country - except that the nobles and high officials would include lots of half-dragons and half-orcs. Half dragons are very nasty creatures, but these are rich, pampered half-dragons. Heck, it's likely that the dragon himself would get lazy. So when the next tribe of orcs invade (again, a century later) they'd have a fair chance of winning, conquering the country themselves, and renewing the cycle... and even if they failed, there'd always be more orcs, or dragons, or demons, or some other creature that can breed with humans... -Shaftiel
#38 talkkno738kno Nov 25, 2007 21:11:07	Actually, there was a society in RL that lived like this, and they did quite well for themselves... China. You can summarize many hundreds of years of Chinese history as "constant fear of invasion by the barbarians to the north." It also makes for an interesting campaign setting. Say a dragon leads a horde of orcs to invade a large country... and unlike the typical D&D scenario, not only conquers it, but holds on to it. It's reasonable to say that the dragon wouldn't want to personally run the day-to-day administration, so he'd leave the existing government mainly intact, and a hundred years later it would be similar to the pre-invasion country - except that the nobles and high officials would include lots of half-dragons and half-orcs. Half dragons are very nasty creatures, but these are rich, pampered half-dragons. Heck, it's likely that the dragon himself would get lazy. So when the next tribe of orcs invade (again, a century later) they'd have a fair chance of winning, conquering the country themselves, and renewing the cycle... and even if they failed, there'd always be more orcs, or dragons, or demons, or some other creature that can breed with humans... -Shaftiel Err...you're missing something, the fact that the Chinese did overthrow there conquers in time and the conquerers themselves usually ended up adopting Chinese culture. The situation you propose is similar to the current day situation in the Xinjiang province however, where the dissent from the native muslim population is suppressed by the Han Chinese starting to take over as the majority of the population in that province , somewhat forced assimilation if you will, with much the same situation in Tibet.
#39 robespierre Nov 28, 2007 0:53:13	first, I will put something out there that has been of use when arguing with non-dnd players: instead of thinking about magic, use the third law: the 'magic' is technology: think nanomachines coordinated by general thought patterns. Assume that a viable planet was seeded with people who didn't know of the nanomachines and their connection with them, who had no knowledge of physics, or, really anything. Watch how such a society develops: just like here, with peculiar changes due to the specifics of climate, environs, et al, and just as people discover fire, they will also discover their ability to manipulate matter in a 'magical' way: just as the tachyon idea was presented above. I think the thing that most people ignore is that the campaign worlds have had their own historical development. A wiz20 did not just spring into existence one day with the entire spell list in his spell book (well, not in any campaigns i have seen), so it must be admitted that spells were figured out. Taking as the breaking off point the 'cave man' level of social (and depending on the campaign world, evolutionary) development. As they draw pictures on the walls because they think it will capture the souls of the animals, and thus assure a catch the following day, they may find that it actually does work. As time goes on, people will make mistakes, and some will provide results: some good, some bad, some offensive, some defensive, some purely utilitarian. Continue this forever. Also look at the assumed level of social development in most campaigns: it is generally around the late 1700's, assuming Europe. Taking magic as something which has had a certain development, we must assume that it was no always the way it is, assuming that 1000 years in the past wizards had access to all the spells is like assuming Charlemagne beat back the Moors with tanks and cruise missiles. What spells were developed when, I am currently in the process of figuring out... its taking a while, however, until I can post something workable to to with that, I will just say this: LV Epoch 0 Savagery: cave-man style 1 Lower Barbarism: think the Teutons when they attacked Rome c. 100 bc. 2 Higher Barbarism: think Rome prior to the expulsion of the kings 3 Slavery:City-State: Athens, pre-Delian league 4 Slavery: Federation: Greece under Macedonian Hegemony, or Latium under Rome 5 Slavery: Empire: Roman Empire, from principate to Theodoric 6 Lower Feudalism: Byzantium, from 500, to around 1000ad 7 Higher Feudalism: Europe generally, 1000 to 1500 ad. 8 Decaying Feudalism: for the classic example, think France from 1500s to the revolution. 9 Rising Capitalism: Seventeen Eighty-Nine, '93, thermidore and the 18th Brumaire The number under 'LV' is, oddly enough, the general spell level attained by the most powerful magic users: both arcane and divine (stupid distinction!). This is not to say that a savage will not attain 20th level, only that a savage sor20 will only be able to cast 0th level spell, purely because there is no need to figure any others out: these 0th spells give such an advantage that she will not need more, until she comes up against a civilized opponent. I also assume that the latent abilities of the sorcerer are dependent on the wizard, in that until the wizard figures out the proper theory of producing a given magical effect, the sorcerers are unlikely to figure out that such a spell is capable, and therefore realize their latent power in that direction. Taking all this into consideration, one must realize that the magic items produced, and the cost of producing them, and the social necessity against producing anything better must come into conflict with the purely 'after-the fact' creation of a society in which everything is utilized rationally: we do not have such with the technology we have here, now, so why should we assume it of a magical society? Wait, was any of that relevant?
#40 quenditar Dec 02, 2007 14:19:36	I'm not sure how much this has to do with anything, but... The story of Earth's technology (and especially European technology) is remembered as continual progress with a few dips. The last dark age in Europe ended 1000 years ago and European technology (much of it invented elsewhere) has steadily improved since. Taking their inspiration from Tolkien (in whose world the good peoples' technology has been in decline since Feanor's time, except perhaps in weapons which peaked in the middle of the First Age, 6600 years before the War of the Ring) and backward-looking Romantic thought in general, most fantasy worlds - Forgotten Realms is a good example - have cycles of rise, all-consuming war or other disaster, and rebuilding that never matches the previous level. Magic during the Crown Wars (-10,000) was perhaps more powerful than anything seen since, the Imaskari (-8000 to -2500) summoned hundreds of thousands of slaves from another world, and the Netherese (magically strong -3500 to -290) made floating cities. Their successors - Mulhorand, Unther, and Thay for Imaskar and Halruaa for Netheril - have made some nifty stuff but nothing close to what their ancestors did. Even Eberron, with its more modern outlook, has the fallen giant civilizations of Xen'drik with their superior technology. I don't think your level outline is usable, not because it doesn't match Earth, but because it doesn't match the fantasy motif of living in the Dark Ages (or, at best, early Middle Ages when things were getting better).
#41 aelryinth Dec 08, 2007 13:20:12	FR is a game world that keeps getting re-invented, and somehow presupposes that little to no magical information is being shared, especially at the highest levels. Wizards hoard spells and knowledge instead of sharing, priesthoods don't cooperate, and getting into centers of knowledge to educate the populace is utterly impossible for normal people. Consider: It takes a literary work worth 1000 gp to enter Candlekeep, the greatest library in the Realms. Can you imagine spending one million dollars for the right to wander the Library of Congress for a week? Thus, there are many in-game barriers to prevent just the sort of 'modern collusion' that would advance society significantly. FR is also a poor example because FR does not use the 'low magic' concept that Eberron does. Waterdeep doesn't even have Continual Light lamp-posts, despite having Watch Wizards who could idly put up one a day as part of their duties, and probably have the entire city blanketed within a year. Not to mention multiple deities of light who'd leap at the chance to light up the night. Also, many of the ancient societies you mention have reigns that lasted in the thousands of years with no external competition (esp the elves in FR and the giants in Eberron). No competition allows unparalleled development of just about anything, especially if the races are long-lived and capable of learning immense amounts. It might be fairer to say that these ancient Empires had folk so mighty and long-lived that they were capable of feats Epic by the standards of any normal folk not so gifted with years and the time needed to accumulate raw power. Lastly, remember that power /= knowledge. Sorcery springs forth without the character possibly knowing a damn thing about the source. Wizardry is about taking sorcery and boiling it down into something that anyone with the correct knowledge and intelligence can learn to replicate. Versatility replaces power. In ancient times, sorcery was probably far more common, with the using of 'runestaves' to substitute for not being able to memorize spells like wizards. There was probably much less magical knowledge then there was pure magical, high level power from long lived people. In fact, it could be argued that Eberron is far more advanced then any society that has come before it, simply due to the prevalence of so much magic. It's the analog of the noble knight vs the modern soldier. The noble knight was an overwhelmingly powerful individual and battlefield force, because he had arms, armor, and training no normal person can afford. He strode the battlefield as a giant. In modern times, every man is a knight, because the training and weaponry have advanced to equalize the soldier. People have been 'brought up' to the higher level. Is this the same as people being advanced to 20th and able to imitate centuries-old giants? No...but the simple fact that people in the modern day and age can reach that height of power in far less time then it took those ancient empires says something all of its own. ===Aelryinth
#42 billthemaniac Dec 10, 2007 9:42:18	This is the difference between magic and technology: One of them works on the right brain, and the other is the left. I don't remember which brain is which but that is how it works. Technology is governed by rules that make sense: You do this and you get this. Magic is governed by rules that don't make sense: You can do it three times in a day, or until you run out of spell points, and you can make a fireball but that doesn't mean you can light a candle. Any magic system will have rules that don't make sense. The nanobots is a bad idea because it makes people think of midichlorians, which are stupid. The tachyons are a bad idea because, 1 physics doesn't work that way, 2 medieval people didn't have the technology to do that so it still has the same effect.
#43 talkkno738kno Dec 16, 2007 19:30:11	The tachyons are a bad idea because, 1 physics doesn't work that way, 2 medieval people didn't have the technology to do that so it still has the same effect. Its called "technobabble", it works for the tons of people that think Star Trek tech is plausible, and I don't see why it couldn't work here... and on the midichlorians things *RANT* ""Symbionts. Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force." Midichlorians are not, as some have suggested, something that can give anyone Force skills. You cannot "inject someone with midichlorians and turn him into a Jedi" as some illogical thinkers have claimed. Why do I say this? Two reasons: 1. Qui-Gon clearly states that midichlorians are already in the cells of all living things - not just Jedi Knights. 2. If they exist inside your cells rather than as foreign cells in your bloodstream, then you would have to inject them into every single cell in your body, assuming that they can be isolated at all. Could the existence of midichlorians be a mere religious belief? Unlikely, since they are able to measure it. But what do they do? This is the part where one must question the validity of Qui-Gon's explanation. How does he know this is what they do? It seems to be a quasi-religious belief structure, couched in the language of religion with phrases like "if you quiet your mind, you can hear them speaking to you." In the end analysis, we know that there is a correlation between midichlorian counts and Force skills. But is a correlation the same thing as a cause? If you answered "yes", then you should slap yourself on the side of the head and go back to school for lessons in elementary logic. High midichlorian counts may cause Force attunement, or they may be caused by it. They may not be directly related at all - perhaps it is indirect. Perhaps they have something to do with the so-called "life energy" of a person, and it is the strength of a person's "life force" that determines his ability to use the Force (remember that Yoda created unexpectedly massive life-form readings on Luke's scanners as he plunged toward Dagobah in TESB, and a swamp cannot be such an unusual phenomenon in the SW galaxy that Luke is surprised by life-form readings from indigenous life). In any case, I reiterate: the only meaningful conclusion from the film is that there is some sort of correlation. Anything else is unfounded supposition, or worse. The similarity between "midichlorians" and real-life mitochondria is too great to ignore. Midichlorians are described as microscopic life forms which exist inside our cells in a symbiont relationship with us. Mitochondria are microscopic life forms which exist inside our cells in a symbiont relationship with us. Without midichlorians, Qui-Gon said that life could not exist. Without mitochondria, humans and most other multi-cellular organisms could not survive in real life. Midichlorians may be a measure of Force ability, or perhaps simply the strength of a being's "life energy." Mitochondria help our bodies generate the bio-chemical energy that we need to function. If midichlorians are indeed the Republic term for mitochondria, then the theory about midichlorians being a measure of "life energy" rather than a direct measurement of Force abilities may have some weight. In any case, as previously stated, the similarities are far too strong to ignore. "