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| #1psiseveredheadMar 26, 2004 11:09:08 | I'm working on an FAQ for modern guns and military issues. For the moment, at least, it will be restricted to weapons in use now (eg no World War I or future weapons). For obvious reasons this is a work in progress, and at the moment isn't too useful until I've collated answers, which is why it has the title "semi-FAQ". Special thanks to DJorgensen, Johannixx, Razoreface, Ironwolf, Ssussunriyh and others for providing answers. (If you want to be credited and your name is not here, feel free to answer.) Guns Q: Is a bigger bore always better? A: No - it depends on what you want to do with the gun. A bigger bullet could do more damage by damaging more tissue, but it won't penetrate armor quite as well. Q: How is muzzle velocity important? A: This is the speed at which a bullet leaves the gun's muzzle. For the vast majority of guns, the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound. A higher muzzle velocity will result in better armor penetration and range, but not necessarily greater damage. Q: How lethal is a gun? A: There are a large number of factors involved, such as range, body armor, bullet type, mode of fire, training (and time to aim) and so forth. Note that most shooters aren't particularly accurate, especially if the victim is running, taking cover, throwing themselves to the ground or shooting back. According to Marine Doom (and I would expect the Marines to know something about this) an average person (presumably wearing body armor) takes two gunshot wounds to take down, although this will not necessarily kill the person. Marine Doom is a version of Doom used by the Marines for small-scale tactical training. They reduced the health level to 20% to make it more lethal. Q: Do guns knock the victim over? What if you're small and firing a really big gun? A: No to both, although it does make for a cool cinematic game. Gun Types Q: Why don't shotguns kick butt? A: They're not really better than rifles (at close range a rifle will mess, although the shotgun will hit the target with a lot more force) but they sure are intimidating. Instead of the typical rules for range increments, shotguns suffer damage penalties based on range: -2 damage per range increment. Double-barreled shotguns can be fired both barrels at a time, replicating the Double Tap feat, even if you don't actually have the feat. It's not recommended to do so in real life, though. Shotguns have limited ammunition capacity, which is one reason why they're not used as often as assault rifles. Q: Do shotguns "spray" enough to hit multiple people? The spread is enough to make it easier to hit, but it's still only something like the size of a platter at 100 yards or something (others will likely have specific measurements), and it'd be a real stretch to hit two people with that. Police officers often use shotguns because the spread is minimal; they're unlikely to hurt innocent bystanders that way. (Incidentally, the spreay isn't going to go through the victim either and hit someone behind them.) Q: What does "choke" mean? "Choke" determines how much the pellets will spread. Full Choke - 70% of the pellets will fall within a 30" circle at 40 yards. Modified Choke - 60% of the pellets will fall within a 30" circle at 40 yards. Improved Cylinder - 50% of the pellets will fall within a 30" circle at 40 yards. Open Cylinder (no restriction in the barrel) - Only 40% of the pellets will fall within a 30" circle at 40 yards. Note that the choke patterns do vary depending on barrel lengths, so expect some variability. Q: What does gauge mean? A: "Gauge" is the number of lead balls the size of the bore's inner diameter that are required to make 1 pound. Thus, 12 lead balls of 12-gauge size make a pound, while only 10 of 10-gauge size are needed to make the same weight. A 12-gauge shotgun is 0.7 caliber, or about 18 mm in diameter. That's big! Q: Are there any automatic shotguns? A: There are semi-automatic shotguns, but I haven't heard of any successful automatic shotguns. The SPAS-12 is allegedly an automatic shotgun, but in reality it's just semi-automatic. It does fire really fast for a shotgun, though. Now, I have heard rumors of the USAS-12, a modified M16 that can hold a heavy 50 round drum. Many semi-auto shotguns rely on the recoil of the round to cycle the action, rather than tapping propellant gases like most self-loading rifles. Thus, shells with lower recoil (low-brass birdshot, less-than-lethal loads, etc) fail to cycle these weapons. The Benelli M4 uses a gas-operated action that supposedly rectifies this problem. Ammunition Q: How quickly could you reload an assault rifle? A: If you have a ready magazine or clip (say in your LBV (Load-Bearing Vest)) you can probably reload a weapon within a matter of 3 or 4 seconds with a little bit of training and some reloading drills. Q: Caseless ammunition: good idea? A: Caseless ammunition has been tried and failed, due to manufacturing difficulties and expense. However, if anyone ever invests in it again, say 10-15 years from now, I suspect it may become a competitive option to cased ammunition in a few more decades. Q: Clip or Magazine? A: If it's a strip of metal that simply holds a number of cartridges together, it's a clip. If it contains a spring mechanism for pushing the cartridges into the gun's chamber, it's a magazine. A weapon's magazine can be integral (a built-in, permanent fixture of the gun that must be replenished when empty) or detachable (can be removed from the gun when empty and replaced with another, identical, loaded unit.) You insert a magazine into a pistol or an assault rifle. You insert a clip into a Mauser, Enfield, Springfield, or Arisaka military bolt-action rifle, or into an SKS or M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle OR using a magazine loader, you insert a clip full of ammunition into your magazine. Q: What do FMJ and JHP stand for? FMJ stands for full metal jacket (basically, a regular bullet) and JHP stands for jacketed hollow point. Q: What sort of ammunition are interchangeable? A: As for ammo, there are several very confusingly similar rounds that cannot be interchanged. The common forms of the Kalashnikov rifle, the AK47 and AKM and their variants, use the 7.62x39mm M43 round, also called the .30 Russian. This is not compatible with the 7.62x51mm NATO round, which has a much larger powder capacity. There is also the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round, which is a bottle-necked Russian pistol bullet that's also used in submachine guns. The .300 Winchester Magnum, .30-'06 Springfield, .300 Whisper, .30 Carbine and several other exotic rounds all use 7.62mm bullets, but are not even remotely interchangeable. The round fired by the Colt .45 is not interchangeable with the .45 Long Colt revolver cartridge, or the .45 Schofield revolver cartridge. The .44 Special is a shorter version of the .44 Magnum, and may be used in .44 Magnum guns. The .44 Magnum may not be used in a .44 Special gun. The .380 ACP is a pocket pistol round, and is different from the .38 Special revolver round as well as the .38 S&W and .38 Colt revolver rounds and the .38 Super autopistol round. The 9x19mm NATO round is the same thing as the 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Luger round, but is different and not interchangeable with the 9mm Largo and 9x21mm rounds. The 9x18mm PM round is useable in a gun chambered for the 9x18mm PMM round, but the PMM cannot be used in a PM gun, and both are different than the 9x18mm Police round. Q:What is a cop-killer? A: The legal definition of a "cop killer" bullet is "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun" and constructed entirely (except for trace elements) of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium, copper or depleted uranium or a combination of those metals. They're designed to penetrate the body armor a police officer wears. Q: What other sorts of special ammunition are there? A: Hollowpoints do more damage, but are slightly less effective against armor. The difference between a pistol and rifle and their ability to penetrate armor is more important than whether the bullet if full metal jacket or hollowpoint. It is illegal to use these bullets in warfare, but, of course, some militaries do not respect international law. Civilians use these bullets for hunting, since they're better at downing targets that don't wear armor, like ... deer. These bullets don't pass through people very well, so they're useful in a hostage situation, especially if the hostage-taker doesn't wear body armor. (You're less likely to accidentally shoot through the hostage taker and hit someone else.) Armor-piercing rounds are rarely made for anything but rifles; they penetrate armor quite well but do less damage since they just punch through theri target. Frangible rounds are designed to damage tissue but not material. Tracer rounds help you correct your aim and tell you when you're running out of ammunition. I think in the US military every 5 rounds are tracer rounds. Explosive rounds are generally only produced for ammunition that is 12.7 mm (.5 caliber) or bigger. You can get free rules for ammunition variants here: http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/index.asp Q: What sort of special ammunition is available for shotguns?[/b] A: Shotguns fire buckshot by default. They can also fire birdshot and less-than-lethal rounds; not so useful for combat, of course. They can also fire slugs, basically a normal bullet fired from the shotgun's barrel. Slugs come in all the above forms. A slug causes a lot of recoil, however. "Door-buster" rounds are slugs made of powdered zinc, essentially a frangible slug used for blowing hinges and locks off doors. Dragon-breath rounds produce a small flame-thrower effect, but they're not good for the shotgun. They are pretty intimidating, however. Q: How do bullets penetrate armor? A: The ability to penetrate armor includes a lot of factors, such as the kinetic energy of the bullet, it's cross section and it's material. The faster a bullet, the more likely it can penetrate armor... but that doesn't mean the bullet is actually deadlier. A small caliber bullet with a pointed nose will penetrate more often than a larger blunt bullet. Bullets made out of harder materials, such as tungsten, also penetrate better. Body Armor Q: Does kevlar protect you from melee weapons? A: In a way, yes. It can stop a slashing attack, but not a piercing attack. It's almost certainly not as effective against melee attacks as portrayed in the rules, however. Q: Does kevlar really stop bullets? A: No, it just slows down the bullet so it's less likely to penetrate your skin, especially if it's not coming from a high-velocity rifle. However, the incoming round is still hot and has a lot of momentum, so you can still suffer burns or just bruises. Body armor can include plates of steel which can actually stop a bullet, especially since it's been slowed down by the kevlar. However, some bullets will dent the metal, still causing damage (although it could be less damage). A shotgun slug, for instance, is big enough to bruise or break ribs through a kevlar vest. (It can dent a military helmet by about 5 inches, enough to outright kill whoever is wearing said helmet.) Q: What do terms like IIIA and IV mean? A: Armor of levels I to II are soft armor (made of kevlar) while level IV+ armor is hard armor (which will actually stop bullets). Armor type III is hard, but IIIA is soft. I: stops .22 and .380 bullets. IIA: stops 9mm and .40 S&W bullets. II: stops 9mm and .357 magnum bullets. IIIA: stops 9mm, .44 magnum and .45 bullets. It probably won't stop a 5.56 mm NATO round. III: stops 7.62mm bullets. IV: stops 7.62mm AP bullets and will stop a 5.56 mm NATO round. Pull up pouch vests typically top out at IIA protection and are listed as +2. Undercover vests usually top out at Level II, and are +3. Concealable vests and light duty vests are usually to IIIA, and get +4 and +5. Tactical vests, Special Response vests, and forced entry armors top out at III plus inserts to IV or better. Q: What sort of body armor do soldiers wear? A: US soldiers would probably wear tactical vests under D20 Modern rules, which they call the PASGT vest. It provides Level IIIA soft protection to the torso and neck, with a PASGT helmet that provides level IIIA protection to the head. A Level IV ceramic insert can be fitted inside the front and back panels of the vest. This armor is expected to be replaced by the Interceptor armor, which provides the same amount of protection, but will weigh several pounds less. Heavy military armor will stop 5.56mm, Russian 7.62 mm rounds and some NATO 7.62 mm rounds. Q: How effective is SWAT armor? A: In addition to the usual level IIIA armor, the SWAT armor includes a trauma plate that is rated to stop 9 rounds of .30-'06 (7.62 mm) steel-core armor piercing ammo! Note that whoever is wearing that armor will still not feel too good after getting shot, but they'll still be alive. In game terms, SWAT officers who are actually entering a building would wear a special response vest. However, SWAT members also include snipers and flankers who rarely wear the extra-heavy armor. Grenades Q: How lethal is a grenade? A: Grenades are provided two important pieces statistical data; lethal radius and casualty radius. Within the lethal radius, the grenade has a 50% chance of killing personnel, and within the casualty radius, the grenade has a 50% chance of producing injuries of sufficient severity as to remove the personnel affected from the immediate combat. Every type of grenade would be expected to have different numbers, of course. Q: What sort of grenade launchers do US soldiers use? A: Likely a variety, but today they use the M203 grenade launcher. The M79 grenade launcher is a Vietnam era weapon no longer in use today - at least, not by the US military. Soldiers Q: What is the organization of a fire team or squad, and what are they armed with? A: In the US army, a squad consists of 9 or 10 soldiers. 1 man carries a M249 "SAW" (a 5.56 mm light machine gun), the rest carry M16 5.56 mm assault rifles. 2 or 4 of the M16s will be fitted with M203 40 mm grenade launchers, each man with an M203 carrying 10 to 40 assorted 40mm grenades. Each man also carries 4 fragmentation grenades. So among 10 men, you have 1 M249, 9 M16s, 2 or 4 M203s, 20 to 160 40mm grenades, and 40 fragmentation grenades. A "SAW" is a "squad assault weapon" - the M249 is a typical SAW in the US Army. A USMC squad consists of 13 people (3 fire teams, each with 4 people, and a squad leader). Each Fire Team has one man with the M-249 SAW, 2 men with M-16, and the Fire Team Leader with an M-203 (M-16 with the underslung grenade launcher). The 13th man (Squad Leader) will usually be carrying an M-203 as well. Therefore you'll have 3 men with SAWs, 6 with M-16s, and 4 with M-203s. This isn't taking into account any special sort of things your Squad may be carrying (a couple guys might have AT-4s (84mm disposable rockets), or even a guy carrying a SMAW (Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon, basically a non-disposable anti-tank weapon)). A commando team, at it's smallest, consists of a commander, a medic, a scout and a heavy gunner. By its very nature special forces teams vary considerably, however. Q: What sort of guns did US soldiers use in recent history? A: During the Vietnam era they used the M60, a belt-fed machine gun, and the M14, a full-sized battle rifle. Later in the war they switched to the M16 5.56 mm rifle. The M16 can be cut down into a smaller version with a shorter barrel and collapsible stock; the CAR-15 (and older version) and the M4 (a newer version). The early models had reliability problems but these have been ironed out. The M16 is better at piercing ammunition but doesn't have the same lethality. The theory was (allegedly) that an injured soldier took at least three other people with him; one to treat him and two to carry him. One of the biggest problems faced by the M16 is the changing face of warfare. US soldiers don't fight the heavily-armored former Soviet soldiers the rifles were designed to combat, instead now they face unarmored (or lightly armored) soldiers in countries such as Afghanistan. Here the armor-piercing capabilities of the M16 aren't quite as important. Some soldiers prefer to use the M60 or even AK47, preferring to outright kill their opponents. The AK47 is very reliable and slightly more accurate than an M16 at close range. The US military is planning on replacing the M16 with the G36-based Heckler & Koch XM8 showcased here: http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html Q: How many magazines would a cop or soldier carry? A: A typical soldier or commando would carry 7 or 8 magazines for easy access for their main weapon; they could carry more, but ammunition gets heavy. They would also carry 2 magazines for their sidearm, often a Glock. A police officer usually carries four magazines for their gun, which (on the East Coast) is probably a Glock (or sometimes a Beretta 92F). A SWAT member might carry 11 magazines for their MP5 machine gun. That's a lot, but urban warfare is difficult, plus machine guns can go through ammunition pretty fast. Q: How are US commisioned officers trained? A: They receive the same combat training as regular soldiers (so, in game terms, they would have at least Armor Proficiency (medium) and Personal Firearms Proficiency). In addition, they obtain a degree in military science (Knowledge (tactics)). Q: What about sniper rifles? A: Common sniper rifles include the PSG1, but real-life snipers will use whatever weapon is best for a situation. This may even include short-barreled rifled like the M4, if you're shooting at short range. Game Accessories Unusual Terminology Q: Why do you keep saying "c0ck"? A: The foulness filter has problems with a few words, such as a word for a male chicken. Q: What do Condition One, Condition Two and Condition Three mean? A: It has nothing to do with nuclear warfare, as far as I can tell. A: "Condition One" is loaded mag, loaded chamber, hammer c0cked, safety on. "Condition Two" is loaded mag, loaded chamber, hammer lowered, safety off. (Only used in a pistol with an inertia-type firing pin and/or a passive internal firing pin safety.) Condition Three" is a loaded magazine, but an empty chamber. The gun's bolt or slide must be cycled to load a round into the chamber as the weapon is brought into readiness. This is slower, but safer than the other modes of carry. Q: What are "actions"? Eg "single action" or "double action"? Answers: Revolvers: Single-Action: Hammer must be manually c0cked before each shot. The trigger merely releases the hammer, nothing more. Examples: Colt Single Action Army, Smith and Wesson Schofield Double-Action: Trigger pull c0cks the hammer, though the user may also manually c0ck the hammer to achieve a short, light trigger pull that is useful for precision shooting. Examples: Smith and Wesson M29, Colt Python Double-Action Only: Same as double-action, but the hammer cannot be manually c0cked. Often used on small revolvers intended for concealment, to prevent the hammer from snagging during the draw stroke. Examples: Smith and Wesson Centennial Automatic Pistols: Single-Action: Hammer must be in the c0cked position in order for the weapon to fire, however chambering a round c0cks the hammer automatically, and the weapon's firing cycle rec0cks the weapon automatically each time the weapon is fired. Generally carried "Condition One," i.e. hammer c0cked with a round chambered and the safety on. Examples: Browning Hi-Power, Colt M1911 Double-Action: Trigger pull c0cks the hammer for the first shot, though the user may also manually c0ck the hammer to achieve a short, light trigger pull that is useful for precision shooting. Firing the weapon automatically rec0cks the hammer, so subsequent shots are fired as if the weapon were single-action. Some double-action pistols have a decocker lever, which safely lowers the hammer without unloading the weapon. Generally carried "Condition Three," i.e. hammer unc0cked with a round chambered and the safety on if applicable (some DA autos, such as the Sig-Sauer P220-series, have no manual safety). Example: CZ-85B, Sig-Sauer P226 Double-Action Only: Similar to Double-Action, except the weapon does not automatically rec0ck the hammer when fired. All shots are fired from the hammer-down position. Generally carried "Condition Three." Example: Beretta 92D Striker-Fired: Weapon uses an internal striker instead of an external hammer. Generally follows the DAO pattern with no ability to manually c0ck the striker, though some (most notably the Springfield XD/HS2000) are Single-Action instead. Generally carried "Condition Three." Examples: Walther P99, Springfield XD Safe-Action: Glock's proprietary DAO/SA hybrid striker-fired action. Chambering a round half-c0cks the weapon's internal striker, and the trigger pull finishes c0cking the striker before releasing it. Generally carried "Condition Three." Examples: Glock 17, Glock 21 Squeeze-C0cker: Variation of the striker-fired action, but striker is c0cked by squeezing the grip frame and returns to unc0cked state when grip is relaxed. Generally carried "Condition Three." Examples: HK P7M13, HK PSP |
| #2zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 11:27:10 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead If it's a strip of metal that simply holds a number of cartridges together, it's a clip. If it contains a spring mechanism for pushing the cartridges into the gun's chamber, it's a magazine. A weapon's magazine can be integral (a built-in, permanent fixture of the gun that must be replenished when empty) or detachable (can be removed from the gun when empty and replaced with another, identical, loaded unit.) |
| #3johannixxMar 26, 2004 11:44:02 | A slight correction. Level III body armor is hard, not soft. Soft body armor tops out at IIIA. |
| #4zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 12:49:34 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead A minor point, but as the people who need an FAQ most are those who have the least knowledge, you might want to watch out for Jargon/abbreviations. This is just an example - I know what a SAW is, you know what a SAW is, but some people might wonder why a squad member is equipped with carpentry tools. Other than that an excellent idea. |
| #5psiseveredheadMar 26, 2004 13:02:17 | A lot of the answers are cut-and-paste at the moment. I don't know much about SAWs myself. (I had to google search multiple times; the last time was "SAW" and "gun" and "military" and even then it was the last entry on the first page.) If anyone can answer these questions... How quickly can you load a weapon? How accurate is autofire? I think I read somewhere that you might be able to get 1 in 8 shots into somebody. |
| #6ironwolf56Mar 26, 2004 15:41:43 | [i] This is more a generic statement that is true for the Army; the Marine Corps operates much differently. And a squad is usually 13 people (3, 4-man Fire Teams, and a Squad Leader). |
| #7ironwolf56Mar 26, 2004 15:47:18 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead 1). If you have a ready magazine or clip (say in your LBV (Load-Bearing Vest)) you can probably reload a weapon within a matter of 3 or 4 seconds with a little bit of training and some reloading drills. 2). As everything; this depends on the skill of the person using the automatic weapon, as well as the weapon itself. I've seen gunners who can put more than 50 percent of their shots on a short range target. I know I personally could get at least one in a short burst (3 or 4 rounds) on target and I wasn't the regular gunner. In the military you're trained to take short sustained bursts (3 to 5 rounds) most of the time. You don't just hold down the trigger and try to the "muscle" the gun on target. |
| #8ironwolf56Mar 26, 2004 15:50:05 | Originally posted by ironwolf56 In the Marines: A 13-man squad consists of 3 4-man Fire Teams. Each Fire Team has one man with the M-249 SAW, 2 men with M-16, and the Fire Team Leader with an M-203 (M-16 with the underslung grenade launcher). The 13th man (Squad Leader) will usually be carrying an M-203 as well. Therefore you'll have 3 men with SAWs, 6 with M-16s, and 4 with M-203s. This isn't taking into account any special sort of things your Squad may be carrying (a couple guys might have AT-4s (84mm disposable rockets), or even a guy carrying a SMAW (Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon, basically a non-disposable AT-4, and what I used to carry)). |
| #9zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 17:09:20 | The main difference between a SAW and the SAW is that any automatic weapon can be a Squad Automatic Weapon (including the M60, M240B/G and the M249), but only the M249 is called "the SAW". It would definitely be a good idea to make note of that, when reffering to the SAW. |
| #10djorgensenMar 26, 2004 20:51:33 | Originally posted by Ssussunriyh Gee, why stop there? why not go on to detail the differences between the different stack types (mostly single stack or staggered double stack, though the Russians made a quadruple stack high capacity magazine for one of the AK lines), then there's the differences between rotary magazines, box magazines, banana magazines, snail drum magazines, platter drum magazines, and helical drum magazines... Muahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! ![]() |
| #11zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 21:05:04 | There's some odd Italian SMG that's got a quad magazine too.. odd things, but 50 rounds in a magazine that's barely as long as the 30 rounders that MP5's use. |
| #12johannixxMar 26, 2004 21:18:57 | Wasn't there a Scandinavian subgun that also used 50-round quad-stack mags, that also happened to be reliable? |
| #13johannixxMar 26, 2004 21:44:11 | Hey, if we really wanna start messing with people's heads, let's start describing the difference between double-action and single-action for autos and revolvers. Revolvers: Single-Action: Hammer must be manually c0cked before each shot. The trigger merely releases the hammer, nothing more. Examples: Colt Single Action Army, Smith and Wesson Schofield Double-Action: Trigger pull c0cks the hammer, though the user may also manually c0ck the hammer to achieve a short, light trigger pull that is useful for precision shooting. Examples: Smith and Wesson M29, Colt Python Double-Action Only: Same as double-action, but the hammer cannot be manually c0cked. Often used on small revolvers intended for concealment, to prevent the hammer from snagging during the draw stroke. Examples: Smith and Wesson Centennial Automatic Pistols: Single-Action: Hammer must be in the c0cked position in order for the weapon to fire, however chambering a round c0cks the hammer automatically, and the weapon's firing cycle rec0cks the weapon automatically each time the weapon is fired. Generally carried "Condition One," i.e. hammer c0cked with a round chambered and the safety on. Examples: Browning Hi-Power, Colt M1911 Double-Action: Trigger pull c0cks the hammer for the first shot, though the user may also manually c0ck the hammer to achieve a short, light trigger pull that is useful for precision shooting. Firing the weapon automatically rec0cks the hammer, so subsequent shots are fired as if the weapon were single-action. Some double-action pistols have a decocker lever, which safely lowers the hammer without unloading the weapon. Generally carried "Condition Three," i.e. hammer unc0cked with a round chambered and the safety on if applicable (some DA autos, such as the Sig-Sauer P220-series, have no manual safety). Example: CZ-85B, Sig-Sauer P226 Double-Action Only: Similar to Double-Action, except the weapon does not automatically rec0ck the hammer when fired. All shots are fired from the hammer-down position. Generally carried "Condition Three." Example: Beretta 92D Striker-Fired: Weapon uses an internal striker instead of an external hammer. Generally follows the DAO pattern with no ability to manually c0ck the striker, though some (most notably the Springfield XD/HS2000) are Single-Action instead. Generally carried "Condition Three." Examples: Walther P99, Springfield XD Safe-Action: Glock's proprietary DAO/SA hybrid striker-fired action. Chambering a round half-c0cks the weapon's internal striker, and the trigger pull finishes c0cking the striker before releasing it. Generally carried "Condition Three." Examples: Glock 17, Glock 21 Squeeze-C0cker: Variation of the striker-fired action, but striker is c0cked by squeezing the grip frame and returns to unc0cked state when grip is relaxed. Generally carried "Condition Three." Examples: HK P7M13, HK PSP |
| #14djorgensenMar 26, 2004 22:55:48 | Originally posted by Johannixx To be totally accurate, Glock's Safe-Action is simply modification of the safety system that was progressively developed for Sauer pistols, Models 1913, 1930, and Behorden. Not quite as proprietary as the folks at Glock like to claim. In fact, I think the Sauer Behorden Model was the earliest instance of a safety switch recessed into a gun's trigger. |
| #15zombiegleemaxMar 26, 2004 23:01:55 | I was taught that "Condition Three" was loaded mag, empty chamber. "Condition One" is loaded mag, loaded chamber, hammer c0cked, safety on. "Condition Two" is loaded mag, loaded chamber, hammer lowered, safety off. (Only used in a pistol with an inertia-type firing pin and/or a passive internal firing pin safety.) Correct me if I'm wrong though, if there's some official source for the definition. When I had a 1911 pistol, I carried it in Condition One, but I always used a holster with a thumb break retention strap, so it had a thick piece of leather between the c0cked hammer and the firing pin. (Probably unnecessary, but then again I have a healthy respect for guns, power tools, and anything else that can mess you up good if you're not extra-careful...) |
| #16psiseveredheadMar 27, 2004 10:00:00 | Originally posted by ironwolf56 My info must be out of date. I was positive a squad consisted of exactly nine people; one leader (a sergeant) and two four-person fire teams (each led by a corporal). DJorgensen Gee, why stop there? why not go on to detail the differences between the different stack types (mostly single stack or staggered double stack, though the Russians made a quadruple stack high capacity magazine for one of the AK lines), then there's the differences between rotary magazines, box magazines, banana magazines, snail drum magazines, platter drum magazines, and helical drum magazines... If you're willing to explain all that in plain (and hopefully concise) English, then I'll add it to the FAQ. |
| #17zombiegleemaxMar 27, 2004 11:00:27 | It's really not necessary to go into such complexity. Let me just add this: Some older designs of automatic weapons used drum magazines. A drum magazine is (obviously) shaped like a drum: a large cylindrical metal box that contains a wind-up spring mechanism. Drum magazines hold lots of ammo, but they are bulky, complex, expensive to produce, and somewhat fragile. A dent in the outer casing can jam the mechanism and render it useless. Some examples of weapons that use drum mags include: "Artillery" model Luger pistol (32 round "snail drum") M1921 and M1928 Thompson submachine guns (50 and 100 rounds) Russian PPD-40 and PPSh-41 submachine guns (71 rounds) Russian RPK light machine gun (75 and 100 rounds) German MG-34 machine gun (75 round "saddle drum") Some machine guns may be fitted with what appears to be a drum magazine, but is actually a "belt box." This contains no spring mechanism, just a coiled-up belt of linked machine gun ammo. The purpose of a belt box is to keep the ammo belt from getting tangled up, and to keep dirt and debris out of the gun's mechanism. |
| #18johannixxMar 27, 2004 11:28:00 | Originally posted by Ssussunriyh How about I don't correct you because you're right? ;) /me digs in for a heaping helping of good ol' roasted crow. |
| #19zombiegleemaxMar 27, 2004 11:47:31 | Eating crow isn't so bad. It tastes like chicken. :D |
| #20zombiegleemaxMar 27, 2004 15:33:24 | The army has the 9 man, while the marines have the 13 man squad. |
| #21djorgensenMar 27, 2004 17:10:21 | The official squad size for the marines and army both vary every few years, as some college groomed officer who has either never fought as infantry or fought so long ago that his memories aren't all that clear anymore decides he's got some bright idea on how an infantry squad should be sized, trained, and equipped. The size of the infantry squad has ranged anywhere from 7 to 20 men over the last 100 years, and the concept of the fire team was only officially introduced as an actual unit back in the 70's. Most of the time, squad size fluctuates between 9 and 11 men. I don't know about the Marines, but the Army is actually moving to eliminate squad-sized units to switch to fire team units to allow itself more flexibility in mixing and matching specialized fire teams as a mission requires. And don't get me started on the ridiculous concept of buddy teams (breaking a fire team down into pairs)... Unofficially, it also varies with the type of unit and transport vehicle used. Kind of hard to cram a 13-man squad into a single armored vehicles than can only transport 9 men plus a crew of two or three... |
| #22trappedsliderMar 27, 2004 18:29:28 | Originally posted by Ssussunriyh Everything taste like chicken expect for chicken which taste like everything..... ![]() |
| #23zombiegleemaxMar 28, 2004 15:52:57 | Johannixx, as the forum's probably most vocal proponent of shotguns needing better statistics, how are you handling them in your games? |
| #24johannixxMar 28, 2004 19:33:28 | Originally posted by Razoreface Well, since I'm still tinkering with how I want my house rules to work, I've decided on some basic changes for use in more mainline d20 games. 1: The basic shotgun round is the 2-3/4" 12-gauge shell. Regardless of shot type, it deals 2d10 damage in the first range increment. 10-gauge rounds deal 2d12 damage, 20-gauge rounds deal 2d8 damage and .410 rounds deal 2d6 damage. 2: Birdshot and buckshot lose 1 point of damage per range increment past the first (minimum 1 point of damage per die), while slugs retain damage as a normal bullet. Shot rounds only suffer a -1 to-hit penalty per range increment, rather than the standard -2. Slugs follow standard rules, i.e. -2 to hit per range increment. 3: 3" Magnum rounds have an increased range increment and +1 damage. 3-1/2" Magnum rounds deal increased damage (to the next die type, i.e. 2d12 for 12 gauge) and have an increased range increment. However, the drop in capacity often precludes using these rounds for combat. 4: Listed range increments are for buckshot. Birdshot has half the range increment listed for the shotgun. Slugs have twice the range increment listed for the shotgun when using a rifled barrel, or 1.5x the listed range increment without a rifled barrel. 5: Rolling a 1 when using a pump shotgun results in a jam (short-stroked) unless the wielder makes an attack roll vs. AC 15. This represents the user's proficiency level with the weapon. 6: Semi-automatic shotguns (unless specified otherwise) have a 50% chance to jam when firing low-powered rounds (birdshot, less-than-lethal rounds, etc). I haven't implemented rules for chokes yet, nor for recoil (though I plan to do something along these lines eventually). |
| #25zombiegleemaxMar 28, 2004 19:55:30 | Anybody got good stats for a Russian 4 Gauge? How about shotgun slugs? "Rubber Baton" slugs? |
| #26psiseveredheadMar 28, 2004 21:35:00 | Originally posted by Dungeon_Master Well, this isn't really the thread to ask that question. |
| #27zombiegleemaxMar 28, 2004 22:43:06 | Why not? This thread seems to be for "commonly asked questions about gun military and related matters"... And shotguns are guns, occassionally used by military and law enforcement.... I was simply hoping somewhat would add the answers to this list of gun knowledge. *shrug* |
| #28johannixxMar 29, 2004 10:56:31 | I treat rubber slugs as LTL rounds, i.e. they'll jam most semi-auto shotguns, and they follow standard bullet rules (-2 to hit per range increment past the first). They have a much shorter range, I'd halve the normal slug range as a base modifier. They deal non-lethal bludgeoning damage past the first range increment, lethal bludgeoning damage inside the first increment. I don't know a whole lot about the Russian 4-gauge weapons, so I didn't stat them up ;) |
| #29psiseveredheadMar 29, 2004 21:34:54 | Originally posted by Dungeon_Master The purpose of this thread is to answer real-world questions about guns, military matters, and so forth. I'm going to edit the first post to make this clearer. I think it's great that DJorgensen is willing to stat out weapons and the like (he knows so much about guns too) but this thread isn't really the place for this. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a jerk ![]() |
| #30zombiegleemaxMar 30, 2004 12:24:28 | No worries, you don't. ![]() Sorry about the misunderstanding. |
| #31zombiegleemaxMar 30, 2004 22:16:19 | Does anybody know about the current development status of Heckler & Koch's prototype XM8 Assualt rifle? All the information I've found on it is from H&K...and that, of course, describes it as a wonder gun. For those of you who are going 'Wha-huh?", the XM8 is the full assualt rifle version of 5.56 rifle incorporated into the much-vaunted OICW. Apparently, the US Army and H&K have made a deal to replace the M4, M16a2, and M16a4. In that regards, I don't really have an opinion. I onlu ask about it because it's new and spiffy. The XM8 is showcased HERE |
| #32johannixxMar 30, 2004 22:40:06 | I heard a first-hand account of shooting the XM-8, and it was described as "Pretty nifty once you got used to it." The shooter, however, opined that HK's gas-piston M4 was the way to go, but then he is used to the AR15-style control setup and handling characteristics. |
| #33djorgensenMar 31, 2004 0:07:25 | Originally posted by Achille You forgot to mention the XM8 is quite literally just the G36C dressed in a new suit. |
| #34zombiegleemaxMar 31, 2004 0:16:07 | You forgot to mention the XM8 is quite literally just the G36C dressed in a new suit. No I didn't...because I didn't know! Ha ha! Zing! OMG, I got you good! Wait a minute... |
| #35johannixxMar 31, 2004 0:34:41 | Yeah, the XM8 is just a G36 action with a new body for futuristic space-age fun (and to make it look like the US has their own rifle, rather than adopting a foreign-made weapon). Heck, from what I've heard, the Special Ops community has been clamoring for an AK-based rifle for years, but the political fallout would be too heinous for the brass to ever contemplate such a thing. |
| #36psiseveredheadApr 02, 2004 12:36:12 | I was reading a science fiction book (set about 5 years from now) and, due to a partial collapse of civilization, all the weapons were the same as the ones that exist now. Although they had better armor-piercing bullets. Anyway, in one scene one of the villains gets shot in the back by a shotgun firing a slug, but the slug doesn't get through the villain's hidden kevlar vest due to its "slow" speed. Are shotgun slugs really slow? And for that matter, just how big is a shotgun slug? |
| #37zombiegleemaxApr 02, 2004 12:43:42 | I'm pretty sure .12 gauge is the equivilant of 70 mm, but I'll need to double check. That and it depends on the gun used. |
| #38ironwolf56Apr 02, 2004 12:45:15 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead I'd say that author didn't know what he was talking about at all. Any vest small enough to conceal would be eaten by a solid slug. |
| #39zombiegleemaxApr 02, 2004 12:55:35 | The "power" of a particular gun is a slippery notion. But to put it in the simplest possible terms, use the formula P = mv (momentum, or Power, equals Mass times Velocity). A shotgun slug has a high mass, but low velocity. A rifle bullet has low mass, but high velocity. They can both kill, but they do so in a different way. Now, a shotgun slug would probably not penetrate body armor, but the impact of an ounce of lead traveling at just under the speed of sound would very likely break ribs and damage internal organs through blunt trauma. So, while it might not kill the target outright, he would still be down for the count, and could die from internal bleeding or other complications if he doesn't get to a hospital quickly. |
| #40johannixxApr 02, 2004 13:35:20 | A 12 gauge slug IIRC is .72 caliber. A good Kevlar or Spectra vest will stop a 12 gauge slug from penetrating the target, but the wearer is still likely to die from blunt trauma. A good example of this would be the military Kevlar PASGT helmet I saw tested. .22LR, 9x19mm NATO, .40 S&W and .45 ACP all bounced off the helmet from 10 meters. 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm NATO rounds all penetrated the front of the helmet, as well as the back, with minimal resistance. A 12-gauge slug did not penetrate the helmet, but dented it in about 5", more than enough to kill the wearer. All shots were fired from 10 meters. |
| #41zombiegleemaxApr 02, 2004 13:55:15 | A 12-gauge slug did not penetrate the helmet, but dented it in about 5", more than enough to kill the wearer. Ow. IIRC, isn't a shotgun slug similar in terminal ballistic performance to a musket ball? Just because it's a black powder, muzzle-loading smoothbore doesn't mean it can't kill you... |
| #42johannixxApr 02, 2004 14:06:47 | That would depend on the caliber and propellant charge on the musket ball. Still, they're pretty damn mean. A 12-gauge slug is one of the most potent close-range calibers available, but the heavy recoil (compared to a 5.56mm or pistol-caliber weapon) and rapid velocity loss prevents it from being the total uber-weapon. Still, given my druthers, I'd rather have a 14"-bbl Scattergun custom 870 than an MP5 if I were going into a building. |
| #43psiseveredheadApr 02, 2004 14:22:06 | Neat answers. Does a shotgun slug exceed the speed of sound? I was under the impression that most guns (except maybe shotguns) fire bullets faster than the speed of sound, but maybe I'm wrong about that. What about a Derringer? Would that gun's bullets exceed the sound barrier? The "power" of a particular gun is a slippery notion. But to put it in the simplest possible terms, use the formula P = mv (momentum, or Power, equals Mass times Velocity). Hmm... I guess armor penetration would be similar to Ek=1/2 mv (squared), with a modifier for caliber? PS a 12-gauge comes out to about 18 mm, for those of us who are metric. That's not something I would want to get hit with. |
| #44johannixxApr 02, 2004 14:34:07 | Federal lists their basic hollowpoint 'pumpkinball'-style slug as being 438 grains @ 1610 fps at the muzzle, and the speed of sound is roughly 1070 fps or so at sea level, so it's definitely supersonic. It also packs 2520 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, roughly the same as a 7.62x51mm NATO round. At 100 yards, the velocity has dropped to 1140 fps, still well above supersonic, and 1255 ft-lbs of energy. |
| #45johannixxApr 02, 2004 14:35:52 | Derringers have a wide variety of chamberings, from .22 Short all the way up to .45-70 Gov't (an 1800's-vintage buffalo rifle cartridge). Most are either very small-caliber (.22LR, .32 ACP, etc) or mid-caliber (.38 Special, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum), though there are a few that are pretty beefy with .410 shotshells, .45 Long Colt, or the aforementioned .45-70 Gov't. |
| #46zombiegleemaxApr 02, 2004 14:47:07 | Originally posted by Johannixx About the same energy as an average 5.56mm round, measured at the muzzle (SS109's are a bit over 3000 fps and 1260 ft-lb, if I'm remembering right). |
| #47psiseveredheadApr 03, 2004 1:55:10 | By Derringer I was asking about the .22 caliber. PS did I get the bore size right? I think it's 18 mm, but it could also be 15 mm... |
| #48johannixxApr 03, 2004 2:18:04 | A .22LR Derringer may or may not exceed the speed of sound. .22's come in subsonic or supersonic loads. The standard high-velocity .22LR is supersonic, but quite a few target loads are subsonic. I think 18mm is probably about right for a 12 gauge slug. After all, the 9mm is roughly .36 caliber, and the 12 gauge (IIRC) is roughly .72 caliber, so that works out to 18mm. |
| #49djorgensenApr 03, 2004 4:08:59 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead There's more to armor penetration than just the bullet's energy. The size and shape of the bullet help dictate how much energy gets transfered at the moment of impact into the armor. The small the size of the area of impact, the more energy gets delivered. Hence pointed bullets penetrate better than wadcutters or roundnoses. The materials used also play a critical role, thanks to inertia, which also turns armor penetration into a contest of wills between materials, so to speak. If the bullet is made of a material stronger than the armor, the armor will give way before the bullet does. That's why a tungsten core armor piercing bullet penetrated armor with such ease, while a hollowpoint mashes into a mushroom; the lead-filled copper jacket gives way well before the armor will. And the last factor is the armor's dissipation or distribution of energy. The armor has to be capable of spreading the energy of impact, artificially simulating a far broader impact area on the body of the wearer. Soft, flexible armors aren't particularly good at that, usually turning the impact area of a bullet into an impact area on the body the size of a fist. Hard armors, on the other hand, like a CRISAT or trauma plate insert, instantly turn the impact area of a bullet into an impact area the size of the plate, at least a good 6 x 9 inches. And the broader the simulated area of impact, the weaker the blunt force trauma will be. |
| #50zombiegleemaxApr 03, 2004 21:58:37 | Yeah, like that Army guy over in Iraq that got hit in the chest or back (forget which) with either an arty shell or a recoilless rifle round. It was a dud, and his ceramic plate saved his life. It shattered, and he got a good amount of broken/shattered ribs, and some internal bleeding, but he lived. If he was just wearing a vest, he really wouldn't have stoof a chance. |
| #51zombiegleemaxApr 03, 2004 22:28:01 | A 12 gauge shotgun firing "pumpkin balls" or Foster-type slugs, is the modern equivalent of the large-caliber musket. The modern shotgun is lighter, weatherproof, and loads from the breech using fixed ammunition, but the terminal ballistics are so much alike that the resemblance is uncanny. Just goes to show that in the last 400 years, they haven't really made that much improvement on the basic concept, because it worked so well the first time around... Take a musketeer from 1600's Europe, give him a cheap single-barrel shotgun, a box of slug shells, and a few minutes instruction, and he'll soon be shooting like he was right at home. Give that same musketeer a high-powered rifle, and he'll scoff at the notion that such a tiny bullet can do any real damage, or that it's possible to hit anything beyond 100 yards. |
| #52psiseveredheadApr 03, 2004 23:05:47 | Answers are stacking up, so I'll update the FAQ probably tomorrow. I just discovered that a taser works 90% of the time. Not quite living up to it's hype. (Incidentally, never taser someone covered by alcohol-based pepper spray, unless you like fire. ) |
| #53winternovaApr 04, 2004 1:14:25 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Coolest... Thing... EVER. |
| #54ironwolf56Apr 04, 2004 1:38:55 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Another semi-related note; I personally think RPGs vastly overestimate the actual effectiveness of Tasers and pepper spray. A few exposures and you can teach yourself to resist that sorta thing. |
| #55johannixxApr 04, 2004 3:00:15 | I don't know about resisting Tasers, but it's definitely possible to train yourself to resist pepper spray. I knew a guy who used it like a breath spray, just to impress folks. Then again, he would also eat lit cigars and matches because he was a nutcase... |
| #56djorgensenApr 04, 2004 3:42:50 | Originally posted by Johannixx Yes, OC-based "pepper sprays" can be ignored. If you like eating chili peppers by the bushel full, odds are, after a few exposures, you can readily ignore the burning sensation caused by OC sprays. Now, if you get hosed down with CA, CN, CS, DA, DM, or CN/DM, it isn't a matter of ignoring the effects, but rather how long you can resist succumbing to them. Those particular mixtures will put you down once you've gotten a few lungfuls of them; its just a matter of waiting until you fall down. |
| #57psiseveredheadApr 04, 2004 12:37:06 | The article I was reading involved police officers in the Toronto Star (I'd link the article but I can't visit the Star site for some reason, it's www.thestar.com). I suspect it's slightly less biased than what you will read at www.taser.com In any event they said it works even if the opponent has martial arts training, is elite, or is just out of control. In game terms a taser probably wouldn't be too much fun, especially for a player on the receiving end of it. As for pepper spray, you're right that it's too easy to resist. |
| #58ironwolf56Apr 04, 2004 12:45:16 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead I'm not so sure, I've been hit with a taser a couple times (don't worry it was training not anything bad), and I was able to control myself enough to pull the darts out. |
| #59psiseveredheadApr 04, 2004 19:52:14 | What's so bad about the M16? I was touching up the FAQ when I recalled some debates a while back on the M16 being worse than an AK47 or a G36. I remember some of the points (less lethal) but not all of them. Anyone want to fill those in? I can add that to the FAQ. And if anyone can find an article on those real-life snipers, that would be cool, too. |
| #60ochiixApr 04, 2004 20:04:39 | http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/index.html Found a site that contains a lot of military manuals ranging from urban warfare tactics to mortal operation, to basic marksmanship. - M203 launcher: shows the different basic ammunitions that are available - Rifle Marksmanship: show different weapons used, ammunition types, ratio of tracers to normal ammo in machine guns - Smoke operations: when and how to use smoke effectively and different ways to make it - Ammunition Handbook: standard military ammunition There are additional manuals on terrain movement, camo, dive operation, sniper training, etc. It should be noted that these are military manuals, have a sever pro military flavour and the safety margins on blast radius and other similiar characteristics probably represent the no damage mark and not the lethality mark. Hope you find this useful Ochiix PS if someone has posted this already I appologize in advance |
| #61zombiegleemaxApr 04, 2004 20:46:44 | (Psi)SeveredHead, there are a few errors here you might want to correct...Shotguns can be fired both barrels at a time, replicating the Double Tap feat, even if you don't actually have the feat. It's not recommended to do so in real life, though. Make that read "Double-barreled shotguns can be etc." Q: What sort of special ammunition is available for shotguns? Start this one off: "D20 Modern rules use buckshot as the 'default' load for a shotgun." Q: What sort of guns did US soldiers use in recent history? Early in Vietnam, they used the M-14 rifle and the M60 machine gun, both 7.62 NATO caliber. Later in the war, the 5.56mm M-16 assault rifle replaced the M-14 rifle. Early versions of the M-16 were plagued by reliability problems, but these wrinkles have been ironed out in current versions. Q: What do Condition One, Condition Two and Condition Three mean? Ahem... double post? "Condition Three" is a loaded magazine, but an empty chamber. The gun's bolt or slide must be cycled to load a round into the chamber as the weapon is brought into readiness. This is slower, but safer than the other modes of carry. Minor flaws to an otherwise excellent piece of work. |
| #62zombiegleemaxApr 04, 2004 20:56:40 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Nothing is *bad* about M-16's aside from the gas tube, if anyone tells you there is anything else, tell them to get out of the 70's. An AK is more reliable than an M-16, but it's more reliable than most anything. At close ranges, it's very slightly more deadly, but not in a real significant way. Past a few hundred meters, accuracy goes right out the window. It was designed that way. G36's are quite frankly, better in a lot of ways. They're also not a 40 year old platform. They're not more lethal though, they fire SS109 just like the M-16's do. |
| #63psiseveredheadApr 04, 2004 22:52:36 | Thanks for the kind answers. ![]() I have a very few more, and then I can pronounce the FAQ "complete". Semi-automatic shotguns have been created of course, but the automatic variants haven't been very successful. I vaguely recall reading that firing the shell doesn't produce enough energy to chamber the round... or something like that. (I just did a search on this forum but couldn't find the answer.) |
| #64zombiegleemaxApr 04, 2004 23:12:05 | I was at the shooting range with a friend the other day. He was shooting his (semi-auto) AK, which has improved sights and a tuned trigger, using military ammo. Shooting at a standard smallbore rifle target from a bench position, he was able to keep his shots inside the (outermost) 5-ring of the target at 200 yards, but at 300 about half his shots were missing the fourteen-inch square paper completely. Of course, with my inferior eyesight, I could hardly even see the target at 300 yards... |
| #65johannixxApr 04, 2004 23:27:37 | Originally posted by (Psi)SeveredHead Many semi-auto shotguns rely on the recoil of the round to cycle the action, rather than tapping propellant gases like most self-loading rifles. Thus, shells with lower recoil (low-brass birdshot, less-than-lethal loads, etc) fail to cycle these weapons. The Benelli M4 uses a gas-operated action that supposedly rectifies this problem, but I haven't heard enough to say whether it succeeded in this regard. |
| #66zombiegleemaxApr 04, 2004 23:29:59 | A: During the Vietnam era they used the M60 and M14, both of which were 7.62 mm assault rifles... Try again... The M60 is a belt-fed machine gun, not an assault rifle. The M14 was a full-size, full-power battle rifle (basically a modernized M1 Garand) - again, not an assault rifle. Don't confuse apples and oranges. An assault rifle is a compact, lightweight rifle with a large-capacity detachable magazine, that fires an intermediate-power cartridge (more powerful than the pistol ammo fired by a submachine gun, less powerful than a full-sized rifle cartridge) to make it easier to control in full-automatic fire. The term was coined by Adolf Hitler ("Sturmgewehr" in German) when the Nazis developed a hybrid rifle that combined the desirable elements of a battle rifle and a submachine gun. The term "assault rifle" or "assault weapon" has been erroneously used (chiefly by politicians who know nothing about guns) to denote a civilian-legal, semi-automatic-only version of a full-automatic military weapon. It looks like a duck, but it doesn't quack like a duck, so it ain't a duck... Another quick note: in Vietnam, the short-barreled collapsible-stocked version of the M-16 was designated the CAR-15. The M4 Carbine is a newer (1984) updated version of the CAR-15. (I know, I'm nit-picking. But we gotta keep our terminology straight, otherwise idiocy like the '94 Assault Weapons Ban gets shoved down our throats...) |
| #67djorgensenApr 05, 2004 12:23:15 | Ssussunriyh, classification of the M14 isn't that simply. Over the last few years, the definitions have been getting blurred, to the point where the M14 can be defined as an assault rifle, since these days a lot of professional writers (including the well respected Ian Hogg) tend to call any military rifle designed to fire at full auto an assault rifle. Matters aren't helped any by the fact that the US military just labeled the XM29 a battle rifle as well, when it fired 5.56mm ammo. |
| #68zombiegleemaxApr 05, 2004 13:00:13 | If the system of terminology was consistant, maybe there would be less confusion. Ideally, it should be determined by gun designers and technical experts, not politicians. This is the system of classification that makes sense to me: Battle rifle: Fires a full-power rifle cartridge Self-loading (not necessarily capable of full-automatic fire) Magazine-fed (not necessarily a detachable magazine) Examples: M1 Garand, M14, FN-49, FN-FAL, G3, AR-10, Beretta BM-59 Assault rifle: Fires from a locked breech (unlike a submachine gun, which utilizes a blowback mechanism) Fires a cartridge of intermediate power (more than the pistol ammo of a submachine gun, less than a full-size rifle cartridge) Selective-fire (semi- AND full-automatic) Fed by a large-capacity detachable box magazine (not belt-fed) Examples: German Sturmgewehr, AK series, M16 series, French MAS, Beretta AR 70/90, FN-FNC, HK33 & G41, Enfield L85, Steyr AUG |
| #69psiseveredheadApr 07, 2004 16:35:13 | Real-life snipers: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1072998608498 I found the article, but unfortunately I can't actually view it from my computer. Can anyone check if the article is still online? They don't always use the same weapon (I was surprised by this). They don't always fire from concealed positions on rooftops or from cover, and don't always use scopes. 20/10 vision is a good asset A marksman is not actually a sniper, but are often referred to as "snipers". A marksman can hit targets up to 300 meters (roughly 1000 feet) away accurately. A sniper can hit targets further away. |
| #70zombiegleemaxApr 07, 2004 16:42:16 | The article is still up. |
| #71zombiegleemaxApr 07, 2004 17:15:40 | I thought the Vietnam era short M-16s were called "Commandos," for obvious reasons (of course, that isn't a letter designation, though, but I find it odd that the Gov used CAR, anyway; we are never supposed to company names in official designations. Oh well). Could very well just be a nickname, of course, too. I know the CAR-15 was around, but I thought just a little after Vietnam. |
| #72johannixxApr 07, 2004 18:20:30 | Originally posted by K_Man IIRC, the 'official' name for the short-barreled M16 variants was XM177. "Commando" was Colt's name for the extremely short-barreled subgun-sized AR15 carbine. |
| #73zombiegleemaxApr 07, 2004 19:01:29 | Yeah, the Commando was tiny, barely bigger than a Thompson...but definately useful in certain cases. Thanks for the info. All of this is just talk, since the real commandos of Nam prefered to use the current G3, and I don't blame them. More controllable than the M14, and, and I am taking a stab here, they were most likely lighter than the M14, too. |
| #74zombiegleemaxApr 07, 2004 19:45:12 | Commandos of what branch of service/nationality? I've read that in 'Nam the SEALs used various submachine guns, shotguns, AK-47s, M-16s and the short-barreled variants thereof, but G3s is a new one on me... |
| #75johannixxApr 07, 2004 19:49:09 | I believe they were also partial to the Stoner 63, but I'm no expert on the era. |
| #76djorgensenApr 08, 2004 3:17:12 | Heh. "Partial" is an understatement. The Stoner 63 Weapon System is the only weapon I've ever heard any SEALs refer to as "our beloved". They retirementof the Stoners is what lead to the development of the Ares LMG, Ares Shrike, and the Mk 46 and Mk 48 LMGs. The SEALs were also a big part of the weapons testing that lead to the selection of the M203, so they got stuck with quite a few of both those and the XM148. Anyway, a list of MST/SEAL small arms during Vietnam: M16A1 5.56mm AR- MST, SEAL S&W Model 39 9mm pistol - MST, SEAL M79 40mm GL - SEAL NORINCO Type 56 7.62x39mm AR (AK-47) - MST, SEAL S&W Model 10 .38 Sp revolver - MST M3A1 .45 ACP SMG - MST XM-21 7.62x51mm sniper rifle - MST, SEAL M72 LAW - SEAL XM177 5.56mm Carbine - SEAL XM148 40mm GL - SEAL XM203 40mm GL - SEAL Ithaca Model 37 12 ga. shotgun - SEAL M60 7.62x51mm MG with cut down barrels - SEAL M63 Stoner 5.56mm weapon system - SEAL Browning P35 9mm Pistol - SEAL Karl Gustav M45 9mm SMG- SEAL Walther MPL/MPK 9mm SMG- SEAL S&W Model 76 9mm SMG - SEAL H&K G3 7.62x51mm AR- SEAL M18 Claymore Mines - SEAL For reference, MST is the acronym for Mobile Support Team. These were the guys who provided transportation and heavy firepower for the SEAL teams. During the Vietnam War, you couldn't have one without the other. |
| #77raistlinApr 08, 2004 4:31:24 | Originally posted by Ssussunriyh The following Naval Training Manuals confirm your post: GMG 3&2 NAVEDTRA 10185-C1, GUNNER'S MATE NAVSEA OP 3347, Gunner’s Mate 1 & C NAVEDTRA 14110, Marine Corp Physical Security Manual C-MP-02 Rev 6-99. Also Condition four is magazine empty/removed, chamber empty, safety on and action closed. |
| #78raistlinApr 08, 2004 4:45:38 | Originally posted by Johannixx The official of the Colt Commando was Colt Model 609 and was adopted by the Army and Navy as the XM-177E1. The USAF adopted the Colt Model 610 as the GUA-5/A, the difference was no forward assist. The 609 was further improved and designated the Colt Model 629 and adopted by the Army as the XM-177E2. The USAF then received the Colt Model 630 and adopted it as the GUA-5A/A, again it had no forward assit. While most the 'Commandos' were pulled when the military switched to the M-855/M-856. In the early 1990's the AF started replacing barrels on the GUA's with M4 barrels, though most have flash suppressors from the M-16A1 not the M-16A2/M4 version. They designated these the GUU-5/P. These are still in use and can be seen in pictures of the AF Parajumpers in Afganistan. |
| #79psiseveredheadApr 28, 2004 10:17:03 | Just a bump. ![]() |
| #80wizo_sithApr 28, 2004 11:40:53 | Moved to The FAQ Forum... *Bamf!* |