Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 xavon Feb 23, 2008 13:15:55	So I had this crazy idea, and I wanted to run it by everyone here. When generating character, we will be using a point buy system, but points will not just be used for attributes. The basic outline is: =================== First level character do not receive: -Automatic Bonus feat -Max HP on their first HD -4X Skill points (just normal skill points) Instead players get 100 points which can be spent on: Attributes 4-15: 1 Point per attribute point Attributes 16-20: 2 Points per attribute point +3 HP: 1 Point +2 Skills Points: 1 Point 1 Feat: 5 Points +1 BAB: 8 Points +1 Base AC: 10 Points +1 to a Save: 3 Points etc. ============================= There could be other specials the character can buy (Enhanced vision, permanent class skills, etc). Is this a workable idea? Would you use it? How would you balance the point costs? What kind of other bonuses would you offer?
#2 werral Feb 23, 2008 13:21:55	Hi there, there's a guy posted just below you who did the exact same thing. Personally though I think it'd be easier to port D&D settings/atmosphere over to GURPS than the other way round. I mean GURPS is kinda made to be adaptable like that.
#3 xavon Feb 23, 2008 13:37:53	Hi there, there's a guy posted just below you who did the exact same thing. Personally though I think it'd be easier to port D&D settings/atmosphere over to GURPS than the other way round. I mean GURPS is kinda made to be adaptable like that. But I just want this to apply at first level, and use the class system afterwards.
#4 werral Feb 23, 2008 18:38:23	Ahh. So basically everyone starts off in a "point-buy" class then basically multiclasses into the standard classes after 1st level? There was something similar in the "Players Option" 2E. Don't know if it worked since I never played with it.
#5 v1zharan Feb 23, 2008 19:35:34	I think this could lead to some pretty high power stuff if restrictions arent put in place, I just drew up an (optimized) fighter using this. I just drew it up roughly once I read this, so its not quite as high as it could be, but I think it gets the point across. 30 HP BAB-3 str-16 dex-12 con-12 int-10 wis-10 cha-4 Saves-Fort 1 Ref 1 Will 1 Feats-I didn't choose which, and at 1st level I'm not sure if it'd be worth it to take this many (cause of BAB restrictions and such) but I built it with 4 feats at first level, as a fighter 2 extra feats probably would have been enough, saving 10 points, but I think you get the point. Also, I didnt take 1st level skills into account, but fighters are hardly skill dependent anyway. If it came down to it a feat could be dropped for 10 skill points to throw around. I think the number of points given out needs to be reduced and/or restrictions need to be set in place. Other than that I think this seems like an interesting system.
#6 xavon Feb 23, 2008 19:51:38	I think this could lead to some pretty high power stuff if restrictions arent put in place, I just drew up an (optimized) fighter using this. I just drew it up roughly once I read this, so its not quite as high as it could be, but I think it gets the point across. 30 HP BAB-3 str-16 dex-12 con-12 int-10 wis-10 cha-4 Saves-Fort 1 Ref 1 Will 1 Feats-I didn't choose which, and at 1st level I'm not sure if it'd be worth it to take this many (cause of BAB restrictions and such) but I built it with 4 feats at first level, as a fighter 2 extra feats probably would have been enough, saving 10 points, but I think you get the point. Also, I didnt take 1st level skills into account, but fighters are hardly skill dependent anyway. If it came down to it a feat could be dropped for 10 skill points to throw around. I think the number of points given out needs to be reduced and/or restrictions need to be set in place. Other than that I think this seems like an interesting system. Ah, I see part of the problem... I hit 4 on my number pad instead of 1... Its supposed 1-15 for the attributes, not 4-15... So that gave you 18 more points than I intended.. What if it was left as is (start all attributes at 3), but with only 80 points? Also, this is not meant to take the place of the characters first level... I don't know if that was clear. One more idea I had: -1 LA: 16 Points (which is to say for 16 points you can take a 1 LA race without the normal penalty)
#7 howland_reed Feb 23, 2008 20:48:23	Here's some example builds I threw together. I kept abilities fairly close to elite array, I think. Fighter: 8/10/12/14/16 = 61 +24 HP = 8 +1 BAB = 8 Normal 1st level feat = 5 Extra feat = 5 Lightning Ref + Iron Will = 10 (giving him all saves +2) 8 skpts (same as a normal Ftr1) = 3 Note: the advantage he gets over a normal fighter is an extra feat, +1 BAB, all good saves (at start, anyway), and +24 HP. Still, that's considerably better than a normal fighter. Rogue: 8/10/12/14/16 = 61 +12 HP = 4 +1 BAB = 8 Normal 1st level feat = 5 Extra 2 feats = 10 32 skpts (same as a normal Rog1) = 12 Note: the advantage he gets over a normal rogue is 2 extra feats, +1 BAB, and +12 HP. That's better than a normal rogue, but I don't know if it's better than the fighter. Cleric: 8/10/12/14/16 = 61 +39 HP = 13 +1 BAB = 8 Normal 1st level feat = 5 Extra feat = 5 Lightning Ref = 5 (giving him all saves +2) 8 skpts (same as a normal Clr1) = 3 Note: the advantage he gets over a normal cleric is an extra feat, +1 BAB, +39 HP (?!), and all good saves to start. That's a LOT better than a standard cleric, and better than the fighter above (this is maybe serving to show how the core cleric chassis is better than the fighter). Ranger: 8/10/12/14/16 = 61 +21 HP = 7 +1 BAB = 8 Normal 1st level feat = 5 Extra feat = 5 Iron Will = 5 (giving him all saves +2) 24 skpts (same as a normal Rng1) = 9 Note: the advantage he gets over a normal ranger is an extra feat, +1 BAB, +21 HP, and all good saves to start. That's not bad, but compare to what a cleric gets. Things to notice: --increasing a save is 3 pts. for +1; buying the feat that gives you +2 on saves is 5 pts. (you save 1 pt); that's a moderately attractive option (though it only works once). --gaining +3 HP is 1 pt.; buying the Toughness feat (for the same +3 HP) costs 5 pts. I realize Toughness is a subpar feat, but that much? Do you want large amounts of HP at 1st level? Keep in mind, this negates a lot of the advantage of having a larger HD...the difference between a fighter's d10 to the rogue's d6 means a lot less when they can both buy an extra 6 HP for a couple points. --The AC bonus...is it a dodge bonus? A natural AC bonus? An untyped bonus? --Compare buying an increase ability score with buying the benefits otherwise. For instance: increasing your Con score by 6 (from, say, 10) is 7 pts. For this, you get +3 HP and +3 on Fort saves (plus a few other benefits). To buy this separately, it'd cost you 1 pt. for the HP and 9 pts. for the save (total of 10 pts.). Another: increasing your Dex by 2 is 4 pts. For this, you get +1 bonus to AC, +1 on Ref saves, and +1 on ranged attacks (plus a few other benefits). To buy this separately, it'd cost you 10 pts. for the AC, 3 pts. for the save...we're already at 13 pts. and haven't factored the other bennies. For 13 points, you could jump from 10 Dex to 19 (that's a +4 bonus to AC and saves, plus others). Conclusions: --I think your pricing favors buying abilities and HP over other things. --I think your save pricing is a little high (though I'll admit, lowering it to 2 pts. per +1 might be too cheap). --I definitely think your skill pricing is high...considering the limited utility of skills, AND how they're a major factor of some classes' class abilities, it's costing more for skillmonkeys to essentially "buy their way back to where they were". --Right now, AC is more expensive than BAB...is that intentional? I'd expect defense to be cheaper than offense (though granted, AC is harder to increase as you level...and see my earlier question).
#8 xavon Feb 23, 2008 21:25:26	You missed my last post about the typo. Things to notice: --increasing a save is 3 pts. for +1; buying the feat that gives you +2 on saves is 5 pts. (you save 1 pt); that's a moderately attractive option (though it only works once). Feats are also potentially prerequisites. So that makes it double bad. Maybe a feat should be 7 points (both from this and in general). --gaining +3 HP is 1 pt.; buying the Toughness feat (for the same +3 HP) costs 5 pts. I realize Toughness is a subpar feat, but that much? Do you want large amounts of HP at 1st level? Keep in mind, this negates a lot of the advantage of having a larger HD...the difference between a fighter's d10 to the rogue's d6 means a lot less when they can both buy an extra 6 HP for a couple points. I actually wasn't considering that feat. I was thinking more about how 2 points would also get you +2 Con, and thus 20 HP over 20 levels, plus an additional +1 to Fort and to Con skills. It needed to be attractive enough to overcome this. And at that +3 still seemed a little low. --The AC bonus...is it a dodge bonus? A natural AC bonus? An untyped bonus? I guess untyped. Your base AC increases by 1 (becoming 11 instead of 10). It applies against touch attacks, and while you are flat-footed/incapacitated. --Compare buying an increase ability score with buying the benefits otherwise. For instance: increasing your Con score by 6 (from, say, 10) is 7 pts. For this, you get +3 HP and +3 on Fort saves (plus a few other benefits). To buy this separately, it'd cost you 1 pt. for the HP and 9 pts. for the save (total of 10 pts.). And +3 HP every single level there-after. And 6 extra rounds of holding your breath, and +3 on Concentration checks. Another: increasing your Dex by 2 is 4 pts. For this, you get +1 bonus to AC, +1 on Ref saves, and +1 on ranged attacks (plus a few other benefits). To buy this separately, it'd cost you 10 pts. for the AC, 3 pts. for the save...we're already at 13 pts. and haven't factored the other bennies. For 13 points, you could jump from 10 Dex to 19 (that's a +4 bonus to AC and saves, plus others). Dex bonuses to AC are lost in a number of circumstances. Buying +1 to BAB causes your iterative attacks to accrue faster, and lets you qualify for feats early. Conclusions: --I think your pricing favors buying abilities and HP over other things. --I think your save pricing is a little high (though I'll admit, lowering it to 2 pts. per +1 might be too cheap). --I definitely think your skill pricing is high...considering the limited utility of skills, AND how they're a major factor of some classes' class abilities, it's costing more for skillmonkeys to essentially "buy their way back to where they were". --Right now, AC is more expensive than BAB...is that intentional? I'd expect defense to be cheaper than offense (though granted, AC is harder to increase as you level...and see my earlier question). It is supposed to be primarily for ability scores. And AC being more than BAB was intentional. Many types of spellcasters might not care about a BAB bonus (and even certain types of warrior classes), but any class can benefit from a permenant increase to AC. It is also common for a person to be attacked more times in a round than he can attack; so the AC bonus can be applied more often.
#9 jimprofit Feb 25, 2008 18:28:47	If you're gonna go GURPS go all the way man!:D You already got HP and stuff down, now for the rest. Skillpoints=1 point each. (All skills are considerd class skills) To learn a spell level (starting at zero)=10 points To learn spells individualy=1 point Spellpoints=1 point each. (Spells cost spellpoints equal to spell level) You peform spells by making a spellcraft check DC 10+spell's level. (So you'll need to invest in skillpoints too) Special abilities=X points (X is differant for each ability, special abilities are like a barbarian's rage or cleric's turn undead, or maybe even a prestige ability like summon shadow) Feats I believe are fine at 5 points, (hell, I think they could afford to be lower!) Spells are the only really thing you gotta worry about, but with thier point investment and skillcheck requirements, it shouldn't be a problem.
#10 cranewings Feb 26, 2008 23:37:45	The problem with point buys is that no one ever will make a character the way the designer intended unless there are so many rules in place it is being picked for you.
#11 asurya Feb 27, 2008 6:19:01	@cranewings: and what's the problem with that? I mean with all the splat books out ther and all the combinations they give ... who could even say they still have a designer intention?
#12 uamdb Feb 27, 2008 11:14:20	I think unless limits are set this could get broken in no time flat. By allowing players to increase their BAB and get extra feats, this will allow them to qualify for PrC's several levels before they normally would be allowed. Imagine a Wizard being able to buy up to a +3 BAB. How much sooner does that allow him to be able to get into some of the good gish PrC's. To be honest the best way to do this is the hardest way. And that is to assign a point vaule to all class features such as feats, sneak attack, spell casting, and all of the other abilities. Then you are doing away with the whole class system. Is that a good idea? I have no opinion on it.
#13 etarnon Feb 28, 2008 11:59:25	If you're gonna go this way, just use GURPS as designed. Otherwise it's too much work, a strange, and hard to explain variant, etc.
#14 the_shapeless_one Feb 28, 2008 12:05:28	I never really understand why people try to use GURPS rules in D20 (Not that it can't work) Just seems it would be easyer to use D20 ideas with GURPS rules.
#15 sblaxman Feb 28, 2008 23:08:44	Yeah, I mean, it's cool and all, but you might as well just play gurps if you are planning on going that way, and just set it in a d&d campaign. Ok... I'm the 10th person to say that, but whatever. Dunno, I think gurps is awesome, and I think d&d is awesome, just like them on their own (though totally cool with swapping settings)
#16 xavon Feb 29, 2008 19:44:45	Way to not see past the title, people. The idea of this is not to play GURPs. It is to give D&D players more options at character gen. To make point buy more interesting and varied.
#17 cranewings Feb 29, 2008 22:28:35	Lets not forget, Gurps is great fun when you make characters but it plays amazingly crappy. d20 is infinitly better in game. I made some fun / balancedish classes back in 2e with the class creation guide in the dmg. It might be exactly what you all are looking for, or at least a good way to get a start on the rules for this. Or just play 2e again.
#18 etarnon Mar 01, 2008 7:15:50	To me, I play the system, as designed or play a different system, as designed. If I'm going to use GURPS point buy, I'm playing GURPS, thread title, or no.
#19 sblaxman Mar 01, 2008 11:35:56	Second Cranewings
#20 new_fashion_guy Mar 13, 2008 14:21:05	To me, I play the system, as designed or play a different system, as designed. If I'm going to use GURPS point buy, I'm playing GURPS, thread title, or no. Then why are you poking around a house rules board?
#21 navar100 Mar 13, 2008 18:26:19	Then why are you poking around a house rules board? Because sometimes when someone posts a house rule idea, the house rule idea is a bad one. One tends to be biased in favor of ones own house rule. If enough people say it's a bad idea, then perhaps one will take a second look from their perspective and realize the same thing, or perhaps not. The whole point of this board is to discuss and analyze house rules, not just be yes-men. I think this proposed house rule is too much trouble for a problem that doesn't exist. D&D and GURPS are two different systems that are not compatible. Play one or the other. 2E Players' Options was an interesting take on the game. I used it and did like it, but when I paid for a cleric to mimic a paladin that was more powerful than a paladin or a cleric, I knew there were problems. I didn't pay for particular spheres because I knew I'd never want to cast spells from them, especially since I've never, ever done so in all the times I have played clerics. Therefore, those points went into abilities I wanted, such as a permanent Protection From Evil spell on me that mimicked the 2E paladin's +2 to all saves, but better. I got a bit greedy with the disadvantages to pay for d10 hit points, using swords, etc., but I didn't really have to. It was a munchkin game since two other players played githzerai for the spell resistance, so I just figured I'd see how far I could take my "cleric". House Rules are fine, but you should KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. Rewriting the entire 1st level character creation process is a bit over the top.
#22 cranewings Mar 13, 2008 21:26:42	One time I made a players option wizard. At 4th level he could cast 6 fireballs a day as a 6th level caster, and 4 more with 1d4 extra levels... or something like that. The GM wasn't amused.
#23 new_fashion_guy Mar 14, 2008 9:45:00	I think this proposed house rule is too much trouble for a problem that doesn't exist. D&D and GURPS are two different systems that are not compatible. Play one or the other. Maybe, and that's an opinion, but it confuses me when someone says "I play the game as designed" yet allows for house rules. ANY how rule makes the game different then "as designed". I apologize to Etarnon if my comment was abrasive; I was just really confused to find a comment like this on a House Rules board. House Rules are fine, but you should KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. Rewriting the entire 1st level character creation process is a bit over the top. This concept has never made any sense to me, and I'm in the IT field, where this phrase is bantered around constantly. Simple and Elegant are just not the same thing. "Keep it Simple" flies in the face of innovation; look at the dozens of supplements people use to create their characters. Do you NEED Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete Janitor and who knows what else to play D&D? No. But some people like them, and want to integrate them into the game. I get the feeling if Wizards put this system in a book like Unearthed Arcana as an official alternate system, there'd be entire boards discussing it's merits, and yes, there would be lots of detractors who didn't like it. That's fine, not everything is for everyone. When an individual posts an alternate rules concept, I think they get a lot of detractors without people considering the possibilities of the system. I think the concept is workable, but the OP will need to do a lot of practice character builds to make sure it's not unbalanced for any given class. Obviously, people who've been posting here have been able to find some holes and make pretty buff low level characters, so I think the system could use more work.
#24 uamdb Mar 14, 2008 11:58:39	I think dont fully understand KISS. KISS is not meant to limit innovation. It is a way of handeling innovation. KISS is meant to be applies to new processes where there are two possible ways of doing something with the same results. Take the example of driving Directions Option 1: Go straight two blocks turn left: Go one block turn left: Go one block turn left: Go two blocks stop. Compare that to the Option 2 KISS: Go one block turn right: Go one block stop. They both get you to the same place. One is just alot more complacated with no real benefit. The no real benefit is the key idea for KISS. If a proces if more complicated but provides a better benefit then KISS does not apply.
#25 new_fashion_guy Mar 15, 2008 8:54:06	The no real benefit is the key idea for KISS. If a proces if more complicated but provides a better benefit then KISS does not apply. What decides "real benefit"? You can't possibly know the potential benefit of such an undertaking until you try it, or at least examine it in great detail. BTW, the very statement, Keep it Simple, Stupid, is condescending and implies that the person making the statement has so much more knowledge of the workings of life the the person receiving the statement is too Stupid to understand when to apply complexity and when not. It's tantamount to saying "You idiot, why don't you think like I do".
#26 navar100 Mar 15, 2008 15:30:42	What decides "real benefit"? You can't possibly know the potential benefit of such an undertaking until you try it, or at least examine it in great detail. BTW, the very statement, Keep it Simple, Stupid, is condescending and implies that the person making the statement has so much more knowledge of the workings of life the the person receiving the statement is too Stupid to understand when to apply complexity and when not. It's tantamount to saying "You idiot, why don't you think like I do". That's not what it means. The more complex something is, the more chance something won't work correctly or as intended. The plethora of splat books is evidence of that. If there is an issue that needs fixing, KISS is there to ensure that the cure is not worse than the disease. This proposed change takes longer to make a character than normal. Takes work assigning point values which might need to be changed if something becomes over or under valued. With players picking and choosing, while it's not inherently wrong for there to be optimization, there is great potential to make a character out of balanced than what is proper for a 1st level character leading to restrictions and the aforementioned point value changes. These are not apparent at first draft and can only be found in the actual application, but the chance of such occurrances are high given the nature of what is does and empiracle evidence of already published redesigns of various things. The question is then is all of this worth the effort for the intended effect. What other methods of character redesign exist? Unearthed Arcana offers generic character building. The DMG offers the suggestion of trading class abilities such as the ranger trading favored enemy for a bonded mount. There are alternative class features, racial substitutions, etc., from splat books. There are alternative base classes altogether. Point buy is an alternative method to RAW dice rolling for ability scores. If one doesn't like what's written inspiration can be taken. By necessity any method of redesigning character creation will have some level of complexity. Minimizing the complexity while achieving the desired goal will produce the better result. That is KISS.
#27 uamdb Mar 17, 2008 11:23:16	What decides "real benefit"? You can't possibly know the potential benefit of such an undertaking until you try it, or at least examine it in great detail. BTW, the very statement, Keep it Simple, Stupid, is condescending and implies that the person making the statement has so much more knowledge of the workings of life the the person receiving the statement is too Stupid to understand when to apply complexity and when not. It's tantamount to saying "You idiot, why don't you think like I do". I never tried to say that does not add a real benefit. I was simply explaining what KISS means. How about Keep it Short & Simple, or Keep it Sweet & Simple? This are other uses for the acronym. The statement is not meant to be condescending at all. KISS States that design simplicity should be the key goal and unnecessary complexity avioded. That is not condesending. Maybe if people did not take everything as a person attack, they could see this. BTW: This is NOT a personal attack on you. Just wanted that to be cleared up before any confusion was created.
#28 new_fashion_guy Mar 17, 2008 15:10:39	I'm done commenting on KEEP IS SIMPLE STUPID. I could disagree with valid points all day, but obviously we should agree to disagree here. That said, I do think a system like this has merit, and doesn't necessarily need to be abandoned unless the OP has a desire to do so. Obviously, he's gotten several opinions as to what needs to be fixed. I don't necessarily have any better pointers other than those I've already given, so this will be my last post on this topic.
#29 yamishinobi Mar 18, 2008 0:10:20	So I had wanted to look at this crazy idea, and I wanted to look over it, changing the guys GURPS system for more balance. When generating character, it is like using a point buy system, but points will not just be used for attributes Instead players get 100 points which can be spent on: Abilities start at 8 Attributes 9-14: 1 Point per attribute point Attributes 15-16: 2 Points per attribute point Attributes 17-20: 3 points per attribute point +1 HP per level: 8 Points Spellcasting ability treated as 2 or more higher for spells 6 points per 2 bonus points of casting effectiveness +1 Skill Points per level: 5 Points (x4at 1st level) Higher hit dice in all classes: 5 points per step higher (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, cannot exceed d12 but cannot go above 2 steps) 1 Feat: 8 Points +1 BAB: 8 Points +1 Base AC: 10 Points +1 to a Save: 5 Points +1 castable spell known from any list 5 points (this includes spellbooks) Lesser class feature (uncanny dodge, flurry, monks ac bonus off of any mental stat, +1 d6 S.A. Precise blow, Insightful strike, alternate feature in additon) 5 points per feature Caster level +1 8 points (includes spells per day, spells known/spellbook) Darkvision +60 feet 5 points ( 1 point to add to a race that doesn’t have it) Additional class skills 3 points per 2 skills
#30 uamdb Mar 18, 2008 8:05:06	So I had wanted to look at this crazy idea, and I wanted to look over it, changing the guys GURPS system for more balance. When generating character, it is like using a point buy system, but points will not just be used for attributes Instead players get 100 points which can be spent on: Abilities start at 8 Attributes 9-14: 1 Point per attribute point Attributes 15-16: 2 Points per attribute point Attributes 17-20: 3 points per attribute point +1 HP per level: 8 Points Spellcasting ability treated as 2 or more higher for spells 6 points per 2 bonus points of casting effectiveness +1 Skill Points per level: 5 Points (x4at 1st level) Higher hit dice in all classes: 5 points per step higher (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, cannot exceed d12 but cannot go above 2 steps) 1 Feat: 8 Points +1 BAB: 8 Points +1 Base AC: 10 Points +1 to a Save: 5 Points +1 castable spell known from any list 5 points (this includes spellbooks) Lesser class feature (uncanny dodge, flurry, monks ac bonus off of any mental stat, +1 d6 S.A. Precise blow, Insightful strike, alternate feature in additon) 5 points per feature Caster level +1 8 points (includes spells per day, spells known/spellbook) Darkvision +60 feet 5 points ( 1 point to add to a race that doesn’t have it) Additional class skills 3 points per 2 skills I am not sure what you are tring to do here. Are you saying take a basic class and then you get 100pts to build you Attributes and "other" features? Could you give a sample buils? On the surface it looks very breakable, but this might just be a kneejerk reaction.