Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Feb 27, 2007 21:03:56	Hockey Nights vs Valiant Knights Of all characteristic male activities, the most mocked might be playing Dungeons and Dragons. For many, role-playing games are associated with “geekiness” and are treated as though tainted by evil. But what is wrong with a night of fun with a group of friends on a couch yelling a bunch “Shoot!” or “Hit him!” over a bowl of chips? Does this remind you of any other activity? Hockey nights. My point is that these two so called “boys nights” are equally enjoyable and beneficial for their adepts. Watching a sports game and playing Dungeons and Dragons have more similarities than you might expect. Many scorn the value of the social interaction that comes with D&D. I can assure you that this scorn is misplaced by a comparison of D&D with watching a Hockey game. Both audiences/participants have shared tension or hope and are punctuated with out of context commentaries or discussions leading to bursts of laughter and friendly camaraderie. Both count men (or men-to-be) among the ranks of their fans. Females are seldom seen in their groupings. Both activities bring about solid identification with a hero, either to the entire team or to a single individual. The two activities rely on luck and predictions to create suspense and expectation. Additionally, watching hockey may encourage audiences to play it themselves. This phenomenon is also possible with medieval-style fighting. Fighting with padded weapons can be quite fun and cardio-training. To summarize, Dungeons and Dragons is at least as valuable and fulfilling to its fans as watching a game of hockey is, because these two activities have strong similarities, the social interactions they both lead to are equal in strength and they both have the same opportunities for health. The main choice for the potential fan has to make between these two activities is whether he wants to be an audience to real and tangible events where he has no real control, or to be part of an imaginary world where he can do anything he wants.
#2 usiris Mar 08, 2007 23:18:22	It's because Western society has a tendency to glorify physical prowess above all else. Also, D&D still has some vestiges of the "it's Satanic and will make you commit suicide" stuff. Plus all the smelly Comic Book Guy clones that occupy many game shops haven’t helped things.
#3 zombiegleemax Mar 09, 2007 0:18:37	Using your argument I feel that one could draw the same comparisons between D&D and every social activity. As well I have yet to see any of this "scorn" for the social interaction that comes with D&D. I'm sure it is held in the same regard by most, as the interaction from any other table-top board game. My D&D friends, and my Hockey Night in Canada friends, are not mutually exclusive.
#4 trevhippy Mar 09, 2007 10:05:06	Word! I'd even go so far as to say that a night of D&D trumps a night of watching hockey in so much as the source of entertainment is interacting with each other instead of watching the tube. I'm grateful that I've grown out of being embarrassed about D&D. I played sports in high school, I'm still extremely active and have a social life completely removed for ye olde dungeons and dragons, but I make no secret of my love of strange multifaceted plastic and what they represent for myself and my fellow nerds. I actually quite enjoy dropping the D&D bomb in casual conversation at parties and watching people's reactions. People are often more curious about it than anything else. So, well said! I think the stereotypes of D&D are actually starting to change, especially with celebs like Vin Diesel and Stephen Colbert being so "out" about their favorite hobbies. Besides, compared to World of Warcraft kids, we look like social dynamos... --Trev
#5 sroblin Mar 09, 2007 21:31:53	Well, considering the choice of forum, I don't think this defense of D&D will face a very hostile reception. As one of those rather biased participants myself, I frankly don't see how D&D isn't superior as a social and mental exercise to watching football and hockey games in nearly every way, except accessibility. Did I mention I happen to have a bias? However, I must disagree with your characterization of D&D as a 'male' activity. While there is a definite predominance of male players, this has historically declined, and I have played a lot in games with many female players, and found the experience equally rewarding. I think delinking the notion that D&D is another thing about 'male space' is important to getting other people to appreciate both the things that make it topically and universally appealing.
#6 dyloniusfunk Mar 11, 2007 21:12:31	A bit short for Redgar’s i think but an interesting read nonetheless. Sort of goes along with what I’ve always said about football fans vs sci-fi and anime fans. Why is it that people who dress as other races from TV or characters from anime are mocked, maligned, called losers by our oh so knowledgeable society, yet that same society admires and adores the folks who eat kielbasa from the back of their trucks in -20 degree weather in a parking lot, then paint themselves all over their bodies in different colors and sit for several hours in a stadium in that same weather to show off those colors? The difference is how you say it. The first example is a con attending geek, the second is a hard core football fan. And in America, the football fan is acceptable whereas the geek is not. Don't get me wrong, I love watching football on TV and was angered when the Colts beat the Pats and then won the Super Bowl. But it's fair to say that for most of America, football > geek activities, no matter how hypocritical it may seem.
#7 erato Mar 13, 2007 18:23:34	Have you ever wondered if the bad reputation is exactly because playing D&D is similar to watching hockey? There are lots of things that are allowed/accepted merely because it’s tradition, and would be looked down upon if they shoved up today. Look at the similarities between D&D and hockey, seen from a negative perspective. 1: Both glorify violence. Not just as in ‘beat evil’ but as acceptable means to accomplish an end (in the game). 2: Both are usually very sexist. 3: Both tend to create a certain ‘us vs. them’-mentality. 4: Both include very little physical activity. 5: Both tend value the memorisation of facts about the subject, which gives great respect in the group, but is pretty worthless in the real world. 6: Both groups often ridicule people with different hobbies (jocks ridiculing roleplayers, roleplayers ridiculing jocks), usually without providing any comprehensible justification as to why the others’ hobby is inferior. Because hockey has been played for a long time, while D&D has not (relatively), watching hockey has become politically correct. But that does not mean that the values shared by hockey fans are praised among the non sports-watching part of the population – they are merely accepted and ignored as part of everyday life. When these values are presented in a new package (D&D) it lets people examine them with new eyes. It’s like the people claiming that because smoking is legalized, marijuana should be too. The truth is that if cigarettes were invented today instead of hundreds of years ago, they wouldn’t be allowed. Comparing D&D to an activity (watching sports) that many D&D players find pointless, and sometimes criticize and ridicule themselves, should actually give a pretty good insight in why many (non-hysterical, non-religious) people still don’t think D&D is a super pastime for kids ;)
#8 cheeseman Apr 13, 2007 19:18:24	It's because Western society has a tendency to glorify physical prowess above all else. Also, D&D still has some vestiges of the "it's Satanic and will make you commit suicide" stuff. Plus all the smelly Comic Book Guy clones that occupy many game shops haven’t helped things. Yea, D&D pretty much got beat down on by a few overzealous religious-types in the 80s and is still feeling it, not to mention that its reeling from the damage caused by the "Egbert Steam Tunnel Incident" 23 years after the world discovered it was all a hoax. That right there (and smelly game shop clerks) is pretty much why D&D is so non-accepted.
#9 vahenir Apr 22, 2007 20:23:59	I think the belief that society (or a large part of it) views gamers as 'geeks' is as much a misconception as the belief that gamers -are- geeks. I've encountered very few people in my life that actually held that view at all. In my experience, people more often fall into one of three categories: 1.) Gamers themselves, past or present. 2.) Don't really get it, and just consider it a hobby. 3.) Couldn't care less what you do with your spare time. Just from my experience, it would seem that it's quite a minority of people that have any ill-will toward gamers. I mean, as a gamer - do you really care if someone paints wooden statues in their spare time, or collects stamps? Probably not. Why assume that anyone ELSE cares what -you- do in your spare time? People will always make fun of things that are different. I've certainly heard rude remarks about my hobbies, and not just gaming; I've been ridiculed once or twice about everything from gaming, to watching quasi-historical movies, to listening to certain kinds of music, to engaging in Western Martial Arts, etc, ad nauseum. If it's different from what -you- normally do, you're "weird" and need to be made fun of. I'm sure there would even be more than a few people on these boards that would ridicule me for collecting vintage action figures (Thundercats HOOOOO), or for you for collecting stamps, or for your best friend who still builds LEGO sets. It's not about D&D. It's about engaging in any activity someone else doesn't. One time or another, you're going to hear some crap about it. The important thing is to never assume those attitudes you encounter are prevailing attitudes of society as a whole.