Idea for Languages - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Idea for Languages

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 19, 2004 23:04:23 In the campaign world that I am building, I want to have as much of a realistic feel as possible in a world where dragons raze villages and sorcerers can teleport. One thing that I am thinking about is expanding the language rules.

First, I would come up with the major languages and place them into groups. I am going to have many more languages than the standard D&D set: 3+ elven languages, 2 gnomish, 6 or so human, etc... The groups will be based upon sharing a common root language (i.e. all of the elven languages are in a group). This is akin to real language groups such as romance languages.

The rules involved would be that learning a new language takes a variable amount of ranks in Speak Language.

1 rank if the character already knows a language that shares a common group

2 ranks if the character does not know any languages related to the new one.

+1 rank to sound like a native speaker (this rank can be purchased after the initial ranks to learn the language)

A character knows one language automatically at 1st level as if he or she had 3 ranks in Speak Language for it. In addition, the character gains 1 free rank of Speak Language for each point of Intelligence bonus.

The final portion of rules that I have come up with is a way for characters to understand a new language if they know a related language. With an Intelligence check a character can gain understanding over a passage in another language.

DC 10 - very basic idea of a written document
DC 15 - core ideas of a written document
DC 25 - very good idea of what a written document states

the DCs are 5 higher for understanding speech

So what do you think? If you have any ideas to polish the system or any criticisms, I could use the help.
#2
77im
Jul 29, 2004 15:24:57 I've come up with an almost identical rule for my homebrew world. I'll reproduce it here for all to see. Note that the languages in the table are specific to my campaign world and are not the PHB standard languages; but I'll include them here anyway as a sample. I've written the rule as a new skill that takes the place of both the Decipher Script and Speak Language.

LANGUAGE (Int)

Each character can speak the language of their homeland, plus the language of the country in which the campaign is set (usually Renflour), plus any automatic languages granted by their race and class. In addition, for each rank of Language they gain, they know one additional language.

Check: You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form. The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, or very old writing. If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about the text. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Language check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false.

You can also understand an unfamiliar spoken language. The base DC is 15 for a regional dialect or thick accent of a langage you speak, 20 for an unfamiliar language from the same language group as one you speak, 25 an unfamiliar language in a different language group, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, very old, or extremely foreign languages. If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a few spoken sentences. If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about message. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Language check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false.

Action: Deciphering the equivalent of a single page of script takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions). Understanding unfamiliar spoken language is not an action (it takes no time at all; either you understand it or you don't).

Try Again: No.

Special: A character with the Diligent feat gets a +2 bonus on Language checks.

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Language, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls.

Languages
Languages are divided into language groups. Each language in a group shares a common ancestral language and uses the same alphabet; the name of the group, ancestral language, and alphabet are the same. There is no "common" language, but most traders and travelers speak the language of the lands they are passing through; Renflourian is often used as a common trade language or neutral language.
Group (Languages in that group)
Giant (Frelundish, Zoltaran, Jarlian, Garlish**, Giant)
Halfling (Erindese, Loshan, Treothan, Hunitanian dialects***, Old Halfling*)
Orcish (Corsan, Kresmayan, Old Orcish*)
Dwarven (Parthanian [Mountain Duchies], Leden, Old Dwarven*)
Elven (Ponderran, Renflourian, Garlish**, Chirmonten, Alluvani, Old Elven*)
Elemental**** (Elemental, Draconic)
Sylvan**** (Sylvan, Druidic)
Celestial**** (Celestial, Demonic dialects***, Aberrant dialects***)
*Dead language; no modern speakers.
**Part of multiple language groups; the DC to decipher these languages decreases by 2 for each similar language group you already know beyond the first.
***Multiple languages.
****Languages in this group are considered intricate, exotic, very old, or extremely foreign (DC 30 or higher to decipher).

Here is the same info, language first (PHB-style):

Languages (Language Group/Alphabet)
Aberrant dialects (Celestial)
Alluvani (Elven)
Celestial (Celestial)
Chirmonten (Elven)
Corsan (Orcish)
Demonic dialects (Celestial)
Draconic (Elemental)
Druidic (Sylvan)
Elemental (Elemental)
Erindese (Halfling)
Frelundish (Giant)
Garlish (Giant, Elven)
Giant (Giant)
Hunitanian dialects (Halfling)
Jarlian (Giant)
Kresmayan (Orcish)
Leden (Dwarven)
Loshan (Halfling)
Old Dwarven (Dwarven)
Old Elven (Elven)
Old Halfling (Halfling)
Old Orcish (Orcish)
Parthanian (Dwarven)
Ponderran (Elven)
Renflourian (Elven)
Sylvan (Sylvan)
Treothan (Halfling)
Zoltaran (Giant)
#3
lord_welkerfan
Jul 30, 2004 9:43:07 I like this system. I already am using a similar one in my game.

Are you familiar with the Spycraft rules? These rules are nearly identical to the Spycraft "Languages" skill.
#4
zombiegleemax
Aug 01, 2004 17:38:05 I believe it was in the 1950s (I could be off by a decade, let's not get into it), that Dr. Noam Chomsky proposed the ideation of a "Universal Grammar," sort of a grammar that existed in all human communication (or "language.")

With this model (which is very popular in cognitive theorists), it would seem that elven dialects would radically differ from human ones since they have different brains. I am a personal believer of this, and I think you're onto something very realistic and flavorful.

For further Reading on this matter, I recommend "The Langauge Instinct" by Steven Pinker. I had to read this for my course in linguistics, and it talks about various aspects of language that vary with parts of the brain and inflections of society.

As for your system, I think it works. My way of coping with the concept I just described is actually charging twice in skill points for languages that aren't of the native speaker's race. Ie. Human languages cost a human 1 pt for speaking, 1 pt for literacy. In other races, though, it would cost 2 points.

Yours isn't a bad idea either, but please do note that different palates and mouth structures (like in dragons for example) would make the language infinitely harder to master. Speaking is language; speaking is the first model of language and the most direct way of expressing language. Every other way of it is just a feature or a peripheral.
#5
zombiegleemax
Sep 09, 2004 18:55:55 Lord Welkerfan, I haven't read Spycraft, I'm more into fantasy than modern RPGs. But it's nice to hear that I'm thinking along the same lines as its designers.

Wil_Hyral, I like your idea of languages being tied to physical traits, but I don't want to make the system too complicated. I'll have to think about it and see if I can pound out a way to tie in the speaker's race. I think it might involve splitting the skill into Read/Write Language and Speak Language. I'll think about it and post it here once I figure out how to handle it nicely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 19, 2004 23:04:23	In the campaign world that I am building, I want to have as much of a realistic feel as possible in a world where dragons raze villages and sorcerers can teleport. One thing that I am thinking about is expanding the language rules. First, I would come up with the major languages and place them into groups. I am going to have many more languages than the standard D&D set: 3+ elven languages, 2 gnomish, 6 or so human, etc... The groups will be based upon sharing a common root language (i.e. all of the elven languages are in a group). This is akin to real language groups such as romance languages. The rules involved would be that learning a new language takes a variable amount of ranks in Speak Language. 1 rank if the character already knows a language that shares a common group 2 ranks if the character does not know any languages related to the new one. +1 rank to sound like a native speaker (this rank can be purchased after the initial ranks to learn the language) A character knows one language automatically at 1st level as if he or she had 3 ranks in Speak Language for it. In addition, the character gains 1 free rank of Speak Language for each point of Intelligence bonus. The final portion of rules that I have come up with is a way for characters to understand a new language if they know a related language. With an Intelligence check a character can gain understanding over a passage in another language. DC 10 - very basic idea of a written document DC 15 - core ideas of a written document DC 25 - very good idea of what a written document states the DCs are 5 higher for understanding speech So what do you think? If you have any ideas to polish the system or any criticisms, I could use the help.
#2 77im Jul 29, 2004 15:24:57	I've come up with an almost identical rule for my homebrew world. I'll reproduce it here for all to see. Note that the languages in the table are specific to my campaign world and are not the PHB standard languages; but I'll include them here anyway as a sample. I've written the rule as a new skill that takes the place of both the Decipher Script and Speak Language. LANGUAGE (Int) Each character can speak the language of their homeland, plus the language of the country in which the campaign is set (usually Renflour), plus any automatic languages granted by their race and class. In addition, for each rank of Language they gain, they know one additional language. Check: You can decipher writing in an unfamiliar language or a message written in an incomplete or archaic form. The base DC is 20 for the simplest messages, 25 for standard texts, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, or very old writing. If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a piece of writing about one page long (or the equivalent). If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about the text. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Language check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false. You can also understand an unfamiliar spoken language. The base DC is 15 for a regional dialect or thick accent of a langage you speak, 20 for an unfamiliar language from the same language group as one you speak, 25 an unfamiliar language in a different language group, and 30 or higher for intricate, exotic, very old, or extremely foreign languages. If the check succeeds, you understand the general content of a few spoken sentences. If the check fails, make a DC 5 Wisdom check to see if you avoid drawing a false conclusion about message. (Success means that you do not draw a false conclusion; failure means that you do.) Both the Language check and (if necessary) the Wisdom check are made secretly, so that you can’t tell whether the conclusion you draw is true or false. Action: Deciphering the equivalent of a single page of script takes 1 minute (ten consecutive full-round actions). Understanding unfamiliar spoken language is not an action (it takes no time at all; either you understand it or you don't). Try Again: No. Special: A character with the Diligent feat gets a +2 bonus on Language checks. Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Language, you get a +2 bonus on Use Magic Device checks involving scrolls. Languages Languages are divided into language groups. Each language in a group shares a common ancestral language and uses the same alphabet; the name of the group, ancestral language, and alphabet are the same. There is no "common" language, but most traders and travelers speak the language of the lands they are passing through; Renflourian is often used as a common trade language or neutral language. Group (Languages in that group) Giant (Frelundish, Zoltaran, Jarlian, Garlish, Giant) Halfling (Erindese, Loshan, Treothan, Hunitanian dialects, Old Halfling) Orcish (Corsan, Kresmayan, Old Orcish) Dwarven* (Parthanian [Mountain Duchies], Leden, Old Dwarven) Elven* (Ponderran, Renflourian, Garlish*, Chirmonten, Alluvani, Old Elven) Elemental** (Elemental, Draconic) Sylvan (Sylvan, Druidic) Celestial (Celestial, Demonic dialects, Aberrant dialects*) Dead language; no modern speakers. Part of multiple language groups; the DC to decipher these languages decreases by 2 for each similar language group you already know beyond the first. Multiple languages. *Languages in this group are considered intricate, exotic, very old, or extremely foreign (DC 30 or higher to decipher). Here is the same info, language first (PHB-style): Languages** (Language Group/Alphabet) Aberrant dialects (Celestial) Alluvani (Elven) Celestial (Celestial) Chirmonten (Elven) Corsan (Orcish) Demonic dialects (Celestial) Draconic (Elemental) Druidic (Sylvan) Elemental (Elemental) Erindese (Halfling) Frelundish (Giant) Garlish (Giant, Elven) Giant (Giant) Hunitanian dialects (Halfling) Jarlian (Giant) Kresmayan (Orcish) Leden (Dwarven) Loshan (Halfling) Old Dwarven (Dwarven) Old Elven (Elven) Old Halfling (Halfling) Old Orcish (Orcish) Parthanian (Dwarven) Ponderran (Elven) Renflourian (Elven) Sylvan (Sylvan) Treothan (Halfling) Zoltaran (Giant)
#3 lord_welkerfan Jul 30, 2004 9:43:07	I like this system. I already am using a similar one in my game. Are you familiar with the Spycraft rules? These rules are nearly identical to the Spycraft "Languages" skill.
#4 zombiegleemax Aug 01, 2004 17:38:05	I believe it was in the 1950s (I could be off by a decade, let's not get into it), that Dr. Noam Chomsky proposed the ideation of a "Universal Grammar," sort of a grammar that existed in all human communication (or "language.") With this model (which is very popular in cognitive theorists), it would seem that elven dialects would radically differ from human ones since they have different brains. I am a personal believer of this, and I think you're onto something very realistic and flavorful. For further Reading on this matter, I recommend "The Langauge Instinct" by Steven Pinker. I had to read this for my course in linguistics, and it talks about various aspects of language that vary with parts of the brain and inflections of society. As for your system, I think it works. My way of coping with the concept I just described is actually charging twice in skill points for languages that aren't of the native speaker's race. Ie. Human languages cost a human 1 pt for speaking, 1 pt for literacy. In other races, though, it would cost 2 points. Yours isn't a bad idea either, but please do note that different palates and mouth structures (like in dragons for example) would make the language infinitely harder to master. Speaking is language; speaking is the first model of language and the most direct way of expressing language. Every other way of it is just a feature or a peripheral.
#5 zombiegleemax Sep 09, 2004 18:55:55	Lord Welkerfan, I haven't read Spycraft, I'm more into fantasy than modern RPGs. But it's nice to hear that I'm thinking along the same lines as its designers. Wil_Hyral, I like your idea of languages being tied to physical traits, but I don't want to make the system too complicated. I'll have to think about it and see if I can pound out a way to tie in the speaker's race. I think it might involve splitting the skill into Read/Write Language and Speak Language. I'll think about it and post it here once I figure out how to handle it nicely.