I'm going to have my players going against an insane battle with some leveled up Ogres and a rather High leveled mage. The thing is that after I calculated the Ogres thac0s... they're just really insane. They have a some magical weapons to boot. I'm just wondering if it is possible to have a thaco below 0.. like the terrasque.
Well, of course. Isn't pretty much any 20th-level Fighter going to have a THACO of below zero? Maybe he's a Weapon Specialist, maybe he's got 18/00 Strength, maybe he's using a +2 sword, whatever; the point is, he probably has something up his sleeve to get to that point, and that's on top of his unmodified THACO of 1.
Every class has a "Thac0" cap that they cannot surpass without magical means. In case you are curious, these are the maximum natural Thac0's each class can achieve:
Priest: 8
Rogue: 11
Warrior: 1
Wizard: 14
Aditionaly, I rule that magical modifiers, specializations, situational bonuses and weapon masteries cannot enhance a Thac0 to anything bellow 0. (A.K.A., there is no such thing as negative Thac0).
Some creatures, such as the Tarrasque, still get to keep a Thac0 of -5 only because they are unique, powerful and worldshattering, and thus can defy any game rule. I understand Regularguy's point, but having a 20th level fighter with a Thac0 of -10 (it's entirely possible and even not so hard) troubles me a bit. If I allowed this, I would actually make the Tarrasque and similar unique monsters have a Thac0 of -15/-20.
I would advice you to simply use some DM licence with the rules to make those Ogres have whatever Thac0 and HP as you deem necesary, instead of strictly "leveling them up" as if they were PC's with a class. If you think they should have a Thac0 of 1, that is just as good as giving them the same as the characters'. Just tweak whatever you need to fit the power level you want for the encounter.
Hope this helps.
Whats the fun when PCs have nearly 99% chances of success?! AD&D is a lot about rolling the dice and especially negative THAC0s are ridiculous, yet possible but ridiculous.
As a DM I certainly would NEVER let it come that far that PCs only need to NOT roll a 1 to hit a monster, never ever!
Whats the fun when PCs have nearly 99% chances of success?! AD&D is a lot about rolling the dice and especially negative THAC0s are ridiculous, yet possible but ridiculous.
Actually if you only fail on a 1, that's a 95% chance of success. Which, I suppose, could be called "nearly 99%" but that's a matter of opinion.
I have to say, a sweeter example of the pi-curve being applied i've never seen.. :D
Cheers,
KW
As a DM I certainly would NEVER let it come that far that PCs only need to NOT roll a 1 to hit a monster, never ever!
Whats the fun when PCs have nearly 99% chances of success?! AD&D is a lot about rolling the dice and especially negative THAC0s are ridiculous, yet possible but ridiculous.
I believe only missing on a 1 is an expected part of the game to some extent. With Str, specialization, and magic adjustments many characters will have adjusted THAC0s of below 0 once they reach higher levels, even in low magic games. It's up to the DM to find ways to keep the game challanging.
Scott
I believe only missing on a 1 is an expected part of the game to some extent. With Str, specialization, and magic adjustments many characters will have adjusted THAC0s of below 0 once they reach higher levels, even in low magic games. It's up to the DM to find ways to keep the game challanging.
Which isn't even too difficult.. if you have to hit an AC of -5 or so (which is possible at even medium levels), with a THAc0 -1 you'd still need a 4 or better...
Cheers,
KW
The caveats I would have are:
(1) To keep things interesting, you generally don't want most of the combatants only missing on a nat1.
(2) So, ideally, you want THAC0s & ACs to have roughly similar limits.
(3) Otherwise, you may need to find other ways to keep things interesting & fun.
I apologize in advance to anyone who is offended by my next statement. One of the few things that I think is worth borrowing for old editions from that new edition is the "iterative attacks", which addresses this issue.
Edit: Isn't it possible to have equally insane AC's though?
Edit: Isn't it possible to have equally insane AC's though?
Yes. These are what counter the insane THAC0s to a point. A -2 THAC0 creature attacking something like a Will-o-Wisp with an AC of -8 still needs a 6 or greater to hit, which is still a good chance to hit, but not automatic.
And that dragon one raised another question - you could make sclae armour from a dragon's hide with an AC 4 less than the dragon, this then could be enchanted up to +5. Given the -10 cap for non-dragons what happens if the dragon's AC was -10 or -11 before it died?
However a natural 1 is ALWAYS a miss or failure for Saving Throws.
If it makes you feel better, Orges w/ magic items is extremely odd/rare and besides high level character seem to rarely have to really do long combat, so a few good hits should make them feel a little pain, but that's okay.
My best suggestion is to remove level caps(or at least raise them to 50), use D&D thac0 tables and look into allowing your PC's control of mass combat. Really, by the time your PC's reach 20th lvl, one on one combat is a rare occurence; your PC's should start carving out a nich for themselves in the world and be less prone to singles combat. I still yank out the occasional assassin on my PC's and of course the general of the enemy army must be confronted by your PC's. One on one combat should still be around, just less common.
The group I play with hated level restrictions; I mean loathed them, mostly because of thac0 limit's. I started the whole group off in D&D(1st Ed.) and we eventually moved into 2nd Ed.. Shortly there after we created a hybrid system of 1st and 2nd; it allowed us to raise the level caps, have insane thac0's, crazy AC's and yet still be a challenge to the characters. I prefer the system we have used in my campaigns and by the time a charecter hits lvl 25-30, alot of the sessions we run through is real roleplaying. The majority of the players rolls are to sway minds of diplomats, control the masses and troop movement.
My best suggestion is to remove level caps(or at least raise them to 50), use D&D thac0 tables and look into allowing your PC's control of mass combat. Really, by the time your PC's reach 20th lvl, one on one combat is a rare occurence; your PC's should start carving out a nich for themselves in the world and be less prone to singles combat. I still yank out the occasional assassin on my PC's and of course the general of the enemy army must be confronted by your PC's. One on one combat should still be around, just less common.
So you allow Orcs, Kobolds, Lizard Men and so on to obtain any level?
Orc's casting wish spells, Kobolds creating iron golems, Lizard Men fashioning scrolls and potions!!!!!
sounds like a party :D
Plane traveling is the only reall challenge left to characters over 20+ lvl.
Of course!
"Orc's casting wish spells, Kobolds creating iron golems, Lizard Men fashioning scrolls and potions!!!!!"
Well...I suppose as long as they have the mental facility and capability to do so. Rarely do you have an Orc who can manage that high a level spell...and generally they take to their nature and shove things through soft things that scream and bleed.
"So you allow Orcs, Kobolds, Lizard Men and so on to obtain any level?"
Of course!
"Orc's casting wish spells, Kobolds creating iron golems, Lizard Men fashioning scrolls and potions!!!!!"
Well...I suppose as long as they have the mental facility and capability to do so. Rarely do you have an Orc who can manage that high a level spell...and generally they take to their nature and shove things through soft things that scream and bleed.
Since I do a lot of plane traveling with my players, I may want a copy of your world. W/ permission of course, I promise to do it justice :D
Talk about your different primes
The world I adapted is Mystara(I think the variations in the cultures add so much to the atmosphere) and even at 30th lvl, most of the players haven't even played with the idea of going into alternate planes(trust me...I tried that route and they fought against it); they are too busy trying to secure their own borders, balance troops and maintain alliances.
Also, for people who have high lvl characters in other campaigns that are getting dry; nothing brings the life back to a campaign like dropping a PC into a realm where they aren't so hot anymore, especially if they are travelling through the planes or Sigil.
If you take a look at D&D Mystara, you see several examples of 30 and 40 lvl NPC's. King Thar is an example of one orc who carved out a nich for himself(BTW...check out the "Orcs of Thar" Gazetteer for awesome orc, kobold and ogre player rules). It really takes minimal work to add some of the AD&D necessities and remove the AD&D quasi-fluff.
The world I adapted is Mystara(I think the variations in the cultures add so much to the atmosphere) and even at 30th lvl, most of the players haven't even played with the idea of going into alternate planes(trust me...I tried that route and they fought against it); they are too busy trying to secure their own borders, balance troops and maintain alliances.
Also, for people who have high lvl characters in other campaigns that are getting dry; nothing brings the life back to a campaign like dropping a PC into a realm where they aren't so hot anymore, especially if they are travelling through the planes or Sigil.
Every player wants something different, even if us DMs want to do it another way. But hey, we're here to entertain them, they are automatic enteratainment for us
Your right about dropping the PCs off in a world where they aren't nothing. I take it one step further and place them in Primes where they must re-level for that Universe - they love it, its like starting over again, but not. Some classes keep more powers than others, but thats all part of the run!
Well, they do have a rather comfortable niche and tehy have some popularity and notority. The Ogres were (take note of past tense) part of this new, very large and threatening cult. My favorite technique to keep a campaign going is get them to make a promise to some old merchant freind, let them recieve a note from another NPC friend calling them for the holidays (winter times) and suddenly an attack occurs... I would have them start controlling troops... if I could find some good info on doing so.
Have you ever looked into Battle Systems for AD&D? I purchased it specifically for dealing with armies and huge battles.
As a DM I certainly would NEVER let it come that far that PCs only need to NOT roll a 1 to hit a monster, never ever!
Whats the fun when PCs have nearly 99% chances of success?! AD&D is a lot about rolling the dice and especially negative THAC0s are ridiculous, yet possible but ridiculous.
...yet its fair for some monster to be able to do it?
Not sure if the High level campaign book says otherwise, since we never used those books.
But going by the core rule books, a level 20 fighter is THAC0 1, with likely a nice bonus on his roll. Of course, most people just modify the THAC0 and write that number on the sheet, which is easier.
Say, THAC0 -3, attacking a guy with AC -8
The AC is deducted from THAC0, so -3 minus -8, giving a required hit score of 5.
Its all basic math
...yet its fair for some monster to be able to do it?
"Fair?"Life ain't fair, man. Birds can fly. Fish can breathe underwater. Squirrels can climb down trees head-first.
I'd go with "reasonable," instead.
Life ain't fair, man. Birds can fly. Fish can breathe underwater. Squirrels can climb down trees head-first.
I'd go with "reasonable," instead.
Except... this isn't life dude. This is just a game. A game where the rules are supposed to be unified. Though one of the prior posters had it right anyway, that the actual Tarrasque 'Thac0' is really just a base Thac0 with strength bonuses anyway, and a PC can easily be -5 at higher levels with magic weapons and a good strength. Although the armor cap means that anyone with that high of a Thac0 hardly every misses.
It never occured to us to nerf our characters just to make monsters appear more epic and challenge the players more. Our view of DMing is that if you can't challenge a PC of any level without changing the rules or cheating for your monsters, you are either not trying very hard, not using good tactics, or just are not that imaginative.
There are rules for PCs attaining divine status. That sounds pretty "unique, powerful, and world shattering" to me. If you can't deal with my character hitting a maralith on a 2, how on earth are you going to deal with him shape changing into an iron golem and dropping a delayed blast fireball at his feet?
Except... this isn't life dude. This is just a game.
"Just a game." What a horrible reason to remove any semblance of "reality" from the table.
But okay, let's go with that then:
Game stats ain't fair, man. Planes can fly. Submarines can go underwater. Tanks can climb up and down sand dunes.
I'd go with "reasonable," instead.
I don't understand this need to allow PCs to be able to do anything the monsters can do.
Not allowing an epic 1e character to hit when the rules say he should, just because it offends your sensibilities for a player to hit a will-o-wisp with a roll of two is the equivalent of not letting a PC cast a fly spell because it offends your sensibilities for a PC to fly like the will-o-wisp.
It just makes you look like a bad DM.
I have no idea what an epic 1E character is. I think THAC0s for PCs bottom out at 4* according to the rules.
*For the fighter. For the other classes, it's...I dunno, where's my book? Here, booky booky booky! Rats: It's gone. But I think the numbers were around 10 for the other classes--probably like 12 for MUs, 10 for Thieves, and maybe 9 or 8 for Clerics.
As a DM perspective it's a tad annoying and amazing that they can hit the toughest monster you throw at them (atleast, the standard monster) with a 2. That is, unless, you create some super breed of monsters that can have some 'uber mad loot' to protect them, and resistances to weapons or whatever.
As a solution (minor one)... create a situation(s) which doesn't help the pc's at all. I.e. underwater, wait high mud, slowing poisens (that is, if they don't save vs. poisen and such) and other hampering things. I'm sure curses can help, too.
And the monsters have the same modifiers the pc's have, can't they? Humans and demihuman thieves have backstabbing multiplier's, too...
Levels 20+ is literally godlike, ordinary dungeonhacking is going to be meaningless at such heights of power.
Characters like that should be influencing nations and leading armies
2e Player's Handbook, 1996 2nd Printing, Page 121, Table 53: Calculated Thac0s, states that the Thac0 for 20th level characters is as follows:
Priest: 8
Rogue: 11
Warrior: 1
Wizard: 14
Throw in a girdle of fire giant strength and a +5 long sword and that 20th level fighter has himself a Thac0 of -8.
You shouldn't (IMHO) analyze THAC0 in a vacuum. The important statistics are average/min/max damage/round considering both the attack roll & the damage roll.
e.g. If you hit 18 out of 20 times, have only one attack/round, & do 1d8+1 points of damage/hit (just to pull numbers out of thin air), you're doing an average of 4.95 points of damage/round. If the chance to hit goes up to 20 out of 20, the average only increases to 5.5 points/round.
If the PCs have a 100% chance of hitting the monsters & the monsters have 100% chance of hitting the PCs, the outcome isn't all that different than if the PCs only have a 50% chance of hitting the monsters & the monsters only have a 50% chance of hitting the PCs.
I don't know what rules you people are looking at.
Yeah, it is a bit confusing. I was working from 1E rules, myself.
Yeah, it is a bit confusing. I was working from 1E rules, myself.
We still use the 1e charts as well. On those you are correct, sir. The fighter/ranger/paladin chart tops out at 17+ level. Of course they don't call it a Thac0 on the chart, but it works out to a Thac0 of 4.
We just finished a modified version of the 2e epic adventure Die, Vecna, Die. This left my still active dual class 17th level 1e ranger/18th level 2e magic-user with the ability to mix classes for the first time along with a vorpal blade and gauntlets of ogre power. This means his effective Thac0 is now 4 - 3 - 3 = -2. So he hits up to armor class -4 on a roll of 2.