Lance Duels System - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Lance Duels System

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
deadeye19
Apr 30, 2006 9:56:36 Lance Duels System

On a special occasion, a lancing duel was set to occur in my game. Two characters had an issue to resolve, but instead of fencing, they chose to battle on horsebacks. I had to come up with a system that would take all relevant factors into consideration and be able to produce some tension and a winner (dropping the other combatant). This is what I came up with:

On a lance duel, the participants both charge simultaneously at each other, in an attempt to take the opponent down from his horse, and then continue to ride to the other end of the rink to set up for the next charge. This system assumes the lances’ heads are blunt and padded, so no serious damage is actually dealt. Each charge of the duel would be an opposing Ride skill check, with the following adjustments to the die roll:

Strength: While lancing includes dexterity*, which allows a rider to quickly dodge a coming strike or to seize an opportunity to score a hit, the stronger the character, the easier it is for him to take an opponent off his saddle. Add the Strength modifier to the roll.(*Note that the ride skill already includes your dexterity modifier.)
Shield: Shields are essential in such duels. A heavy shield adds +2 to the check, a small shield adds +1, while a buckler does not alter the check. A character without a shield suffers -2 to her check. Remember, a character using a shield without proficiency suffers its armor check penalty to her ride skill.
Mount Speed: Riding on a faster horse adds power to the collision. For each 5 ft. a combatant’s mount is faster than his opponent’s, that combatant gains +1 to the ride check. With that in mind, many would see the use of Horseshoes of Speed or similar effects as flat-out cheating.
Spirited Charge: The Player’s Handbook describe this feat as: “You are trained at making a devastating mounted charge.” As lancing duels are practically charging at one another, a character that possesses this feat gains a +4 to her ride check.
Weapon Focus(Lance): A character that is more proficient with a lance then normal-whether she has Weapon Focus (Lance), Greater Weapon Focus (Lance) or the epic version of the feat, adds that bonus to the ride check. A character that is not proficient with the lance suffers -4 to her roll.
Lance Enchantment: Having an enchanted or a masterwork lance in these duels can be worthwhile. Add the enchantment bonus of the lance to the opposing skill check. Some honorable duels, however, might agree to be on even terms on this regard. Both will only use mundane or masterwork lances. Such rules are to be decided in-game.

To score a hit, the duelist needs to beat its opponent by 5 points or more on the skill check. Success by a narrower margin (or a tie) means that the two scored minor hits, dodged the coming blow, or otherwise rode by without anyone striking true.

The number of blows required to beat a rider in the duel is his ride skill ranks, divided by four, rounded down (but at list 1). After taking that many hits in a single duel the duelist fails to stay on the saddle and falls, and thus lose the match.

For example, a fighter and a paladin are having a lance duel. The Fighter has 14 ranks in ride, +2 to dexterity (to a total ride check of 16, no other modifiers), +4 strength modifier, a large shield, a masterwork lance (+1 enchantment bonus), and he ride on a heavy warhorse (50 ft. of speed). He also has the feat Weapon Focus (Lance).Those bonuses add up to be a total adjusted ride modifier of 24(16+4+2+1+1), and he would fall after the 3rd hit(14/4=3.5, rounded down to 3).

The Paladin has 17 ranks in ride, and no dexterity bonus, but his Stone of Good Luck (Dungeon Master’s Guide) gives him +1 on all skill, so his ride skill totals at 18. He has a +1strength modifier, a large shield, a +1 lance and a heavy warhorse (60 ft. of speed-the paladin’s special mount is faster then normal), and he took spirited charge. Those bonuses add up to be a total adjusted ride modifier of 28(18+1+2+1+2+4), and he would fall after the 4th hit(17/4=4.25, rounded down to 4).

The DM is advised to describe each round of the duel with creativity. He can tell the player that his lance was deflected aside by the target’s shield or say that her character just dodged out of the way of her opponent lance. Both describe a case where no roll beat the other by 5 or more. Hits should be creatively described as well to add to the excitement, instead of simply pointing out the combatant scored a blow. The DM should add flavor with the description of (mundane) lances splintered by the impact, young men that serve as assistants, rushing to replace the horsemen’s broken weapon, a hit that accidentally struck the horse (which is regarded as a dishonorable act), the effect of the hit on the receiving side and the roars of the crowd (if there is any).

To be honest, this system was play-tested only once. With that said, it was indeed successful. It kept the tension for the length of the duel, rewarded the combatant that had the higher adjusted skill modifier (as it made up for her somewhat lower rules), and produced an enjoyable encounter. In this case, the PC had the higher modifier by 2, and both would drop at the fifth blow. On a close one, the PC won as she scored five hits and took four.

Hopefully, this system will be successfully implemented in other groups. Enjoy!

DeadEye
#2
zombiegleemax
May 10, 2006 22:58:22 'A Lancing Duel' or better known as a 'Joust.'
#3
deadeye19
May 13, 2006 3:44:11
'A Lancing Duel' or better known as a 'Joust.'

I didn't know that... and unfortunately, now that I do, I cannot edit the article. Thanks for the correction, however. Even though I suspected there is another word for it, I couldn't find it in the dictionary.

[Regdar’s note: if you want to resubmit the article with corrections, feel free to drop a new copy at boards@wizards.com]
#4
zombiegleemax
May 22, 2006 8:04:21 I can see you put some degree of work into this, and it’s a decent system, and I don't want you to think otherwise, if you like it, that’s good stuff. However, I don't think it’s really needed. I can see why you would want to create a system for it if you wanted to focus on it, but I can see it being rather simple. It’s basically an attack like any other, whether they are on horseback or not.

Since its official - and not on the battlefield - its even easier. They both start charging at the same time. Overall speed doesn’t matter because they are both intending to meet each other anyway. When the two riders meet in the middle - or wherever they end up meeting - it is a simple matter of rolling initiative. The highest initiative gets to attack first (blunted lances, so of course its non-lethal damage) and if he manages to knock the person down - if he hits at all - then he does. If not, the opponent gets his attack, its quite common for both opponents to hit one another, then you continue past as with any normal ride-by attack, wheel the horse, and repeat.

After a few strikes, you're eventually going to 'kill' one or the other, when this happens he'll fall from his horse, and that'll be that.

Again, the system you had in mind works, I’m just pointing out there is essentially already a system for it, Jousting is no different from any other attack, after all, that’s what it is, its an attack. Its only done so that its non-lethal and for 'sport' or any other situation you don't wish to kill the other person in. If someone wanted to duel with swords, you don't need to make another system for it because like this one, it already exists.
#5
Book5
May 25, 2006 14:14:30 Seems somewhat laborious,

First, why not just call it a "special initiative situation" Like a drinking contest or an arm wrestle. Contests are supposed to be "fair" if nothing else. Resolving a joust with two attack rolls, and sticking to the core rules, we can work things out this way:

[indent]Negate Initiative - Due to the circumstance Initiative is irrelevant. Both of them are going to get a chance to hit, and those strikes are going to happen at the same time.

Roll Both Attacks - These would be mounted charges, all feat and skill AND etc apply. All normal modifiers and effects, damage, and automatic ride checks. If one falls, or both falls, there you go. Perhaps adding a damage modifier to the Ride DC for this case.

Ground Battle - In a real joust the contest is rarely over at this point. Even with one person on the ground the battle continues until one of the two yields. Honestly, a solid 8 out of 10 jousts I have seen at the SCA have ended with standard melee. [/indent]

Now, assuming you want to make up rules... I would rather give them multiple attempts to defend. Multiple attacks do not seem appropriate to this scenario. Let’s take our format from the SRD.

[indent]JOUSTING
Chivalrous Combat: As a contest certain concessions are made for fairness while jousting. Neither initiative nor attack rolls are made during a proper joust. Instead take 10 on your attack (including all modifiers for feats such as mounted charge, weapon focus, and favored enemy) to create a standing attack DC. Then treat both attacks as happening simultaneously.
Staying Mounted: There are three parts to staying mounted.
Taking the Hit: You cannot attempt to use the Ride skill to use your mount as cover (this would be cheating), you must instead roll a proactive defense check vs the other's standing attack. This is done by rolling a 1d20+ your AC Bonus (just the bonus, not your total AC). Success means you take no damage and do not need to check keeping your seat or holding you weapons.
Keeping your Seat: If you fail to defend against your opponents standing attack DC you must make a ride check to stay in the saddle as per the ride skill. In addition to the base DC of 5 add the total damage taken that round to the DC of the ride check.
Holding your Weapons: If you fail to defend against your opponents standing attack you must also make a concentration check (DC10+Damage dealt). Failure results in you dropping your shield and lance.
Sundered Lance: Jousting lances are made of wood, and will always be sundered when used. Using a metal lance will not be allowed unless the tourny is also to the death. To determine if a metal lance is sundered by a jousting round apply the total damage dealt (be the lance) directly to the lance ignoring hardness.
Two Stages: A joust is a codified sport that is performed slowly and with care. Each round of the first stage of the competition may take two, three, or even more combat turns to be properly prepared. In some tournys entire minutes may go by as both sides (or a third party) speaks to the crowd (or the king). Taking damage and dropping weapons will not end the first stage (though points may be applied), but loosing your seat always activates the second stage of a joust.
Stage Two: The second stage of a joust occurs when one or both of the contestants fall from the saddle. As soon as one or the other regains footing on the ground initiative is rolled and the fight is concluded with melee combat.
Yielding: To properly yield is a move equivalent action, and no honorable opponent will continue to fight past this action is taken.
[/indent]

I am aware that there is a point system for tracking joust competitions. I am certain it is different depending on if you are in 13th century France or 14th century England, but it probably boils down to "point for a hit" "2 points for a solid hit" "3 points for hitting him so hard he drops his shield" - might have been codified in medals, badges, ribbons, pennants, and etc things as well.

Some tourneys let you get knocked off the saddle and then get back in the saddle. And do a three strikes or TKO kinda thing, but the SCA runs a (what I assume to be classical) method where the joust moves to melee after one of them gets grounded.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 deadeye19 Apr 30, 2006 9:56:36	Lance Duels System On a special occasion, a lancing duel was set to occur in my game. Two characters had an issue to resolve, but instead of fencing, they chose to battle on horsebacks. I had to come up with a system that would take all relevant factors into consideration and be able to produce some tension and a winner (dropping the other combatant). This is what I came up with: On a lance duel, the participants both charge simultaneously at each other, in an attempt to take the opponent down from his horse, and then continue to ride to the other end of the rink to set up for the next charge. This system assumes the lances’ heads are blunt and padded, so no serious damage is actually dealt. Each charge of the duel would be an opposing Ride skill check, with the following adjustments to the die roll: Strength: While lancing includes dexterity, which allows a rider to quickly dodge a coming strike or to seize an opportunity to score a hit, the stronger the character, the easier it is for him to take an opponent off his saddle. Add the Strength modifier to the roll.(Note that the ride skill already includes your dexterity modifier.) Shield: Shields are essential in such duels. A heavy shield adds +2 to the check, a small shield adds +1, while a buckler does not alter the check. A character without a shield suffers -2 to her check. Remember, a character using a shield without proficiency suffers its armor check penalty to her ride skill. Mount Speed: Riding on a faster horse adds power to the collision. For each 5 ft. a combatant’s mount is faster than his opponent’s, that combatant gains +1 to the ride check. With that in mind, many would see the use of Horseshoes of Speed or similar effects as flat-out cheating. Spirited Charge: The Player’s Handbook describe this feat as: “You are trained at making a devastating mounted charge.” As lancing duels are practically charging at one another, a character that possesses this feat gains a +4 to her ride check. Weapon Focus(Lance): A character that is more proficient with a lance then normal-whether she has Weapon Focus (Lance), Greater Weapon Focus (Lance) or the epic version of the feat, adds that bonus to the ride check. A character that is not proficient with the lance suffers -4 to her roll. Lance Enchantment: Having an enchanted or a masterwork lance in these duels can be worthwhile. Add the enchantment bonus of the lance to the opposing skill check. Some honorable duels, however, might agree to be on even terms on this regard. Both will only use mundane or masterwork lances. Such rules are to be decided in-game. To score a hit, the duelist needs to beat its opponent by 5 points or more on the skill check. Success by a narrower margin (or a tie) means that the two scored minor hits, dodged the coming blow, or otherwise rode by without anyone striking true. The number of blows required to beat a rider in the duel is his ride skill ranks, divided by four, rounded down (but at list 1). After taking that many hits in a single duel the duelist fails to stay on the saddle and falls, and thus lose the match. For example, a fighter and a paladin are having a lance duel. The Fighter has 14 ranks in ride, +2 to dexterity (to a total ride check of 16, no other modifiers), +4 strength modifier, a large shield, a masterwork lance (+1 enchantment bonus), and he ride on a heavy warhorse (50 ft. of speed). He also has the feat Weapon Focus (Lance).Those bonuses add up to be a total adjusted ride modifier of 24(16+4+2+1+1), and he would fall after the 3rd hit(14/4=3.5, rounded down to 3). The Paladin has 17 ranks in ride, and no dexterity bonus, but his Stone of Good Luck (Dungeon Master’s Guide) gives him +1 on all skill, so his ride skill totals at 18. He has a +1strength modifier, a large shield, a +1 lance and a heavy warhorse (60 ft. of speed-the paladin’s special mount is faster then normal), and he took spirited charge. Those bonuses add up to be a total adjusted ride modifier of 28(18+1+2+1+2+4), and he would fall after the 4th hit(17/4=4.25, rounded down to 4). The DM is advised to describe each round of the duel with creativity. He can tell the player that his lance was deflected aside by the target’s shield or say that her character just dodged out of the way of her opponent lance. Both describe a case where no roll beat the other by 5 or more. Hits should be creatively described as well to add to the excitement, instead of simply pointing out the combatant scored a blow. The DM should add flavor with the description of (mundane) lances splintered by the impact, young men that serve as assistants, rushing to replace the horsemen’s broken weapon, a hit that accidentally struck the horse (which is regarded as a dishonorable act), the effect of the hit on the receiving side and the roars of the crowd (if there is any). To be honest, this system was play-tested only once. With that said, it was indeed successful. It kept the tension for the length of the duel, rewarded the combatant that had the higher adjusted skill modifier (as it made up for her somewhat lower rules), and produced an enjoyable encounter. In this case, the PC had the higher modifier by 2, and both would drop at the fifth blow. On a close one, the PC won as she scored five hits and took four. Hopefully, this system will be successfully implemented in other groups. Enjoy! DeadEye
#2 zombiegleemax May 10, 2006 22:58:22	'A Lancing Duel' or better known as a 'Joust.'
#3 deadeye19 May 13, 2006 3:44:11	'A Lancing Duel' or better known as a 'Joust.' I didn't know that... and unfortunately, now that I do, I cannot edit the article. Thanks for the correction, however. Even though I suspected there is another word for it, I couldn't find it in the dictionary. [Regdar’s note: if you want to resubmit the article with corrections, feel free to drop a new copy at boards@wizards.com]
#4 zombiegleemax May 22, 2006 8:04:21	I can see you put some degree of work into this, and it’s a decent system, and I don't want you to think otherwise, if you like it, that’s good stuff. However, I don't think it’s really needed. I can see why you would want to create a system for it if you wanted to focus on it, but I can see it being rather simple. It’s basically an attack like any other, whether they are on horseback or not. Since its official - and not on the battlefield - its even easier. They both start charging at the same time. Overall speed doesn’t matter because they are both intending to meet each other anyway. When the two riders meet in the middle - or wherever they end up meeting - it is a simple matter of rolling initiative. The highest initiative gets to attack first (blunted lances, so of course its non-lethal damage) and if he manages to knock the person down - if he hits at all - then he does. If not, the opponent gets his attack, its quite common for both opponents to hit one another, then you continue past as with any normal ride-by attack, wheel the horse, and repeat. After a few strikes, you're eventually going to 'kill' one or the other, when this happens he'll fall from his horse, and that'll be that. Again, the system you had in mind works, I’m just pointing out there is essentially already a system for it, Jousting is no different from any other attack, after all, that’s what it is, its an attack. Its only done so that its non-lethal and for 'sport' or any other situation you don't wish to kill the other person in. If someone wanted to duel with swords, you don't need to make another system for it because like this one, it already exists.
#5 Book5 May 25, 2006 14:14:30	Seems somewhat laborious, First, why not just call it a "special initiative situation" Like a drinking contest or an arm wrestle. Contests are supposed to be "fair" if nothing else. Resolving a joust with two attack rolls, and sticking to the core rules, we can work things out this way: [indent]Negate Initiative - Due to the circumstance Initiative is irrelevant. Both of them are going to get a chance to hit, and those strikes are going to happen at the same time. Roll Both Attacks - These would be mounted charges, all feat and skill AND etc apply. All normal modifiers and effects, damage, and automatic ride checks. If one falls, or both falls, there you go. Perhaps adding a damage modifier to the Ride DC for this case. Ground Battle - In a real joust the contest is rarely over at this point. Even with one person on the ground the battle continues until one of the two yields. Honestly, a solid 8 out of 10 jousts I have seen at the SCA have ended with standard melee. [/indent] Now, assuming you want to make up rules... I would rather give them multiple attempts to defend. Multiple attacks do not seem appropriate to this scenario. Let’s take our format from the SRD. [indent]JOUSTING Chivalrous Combat: As a contest certain concessions are made for fairness while jousting. Neither initiative nor attack rolls are made during a proper joust. Instead take 10 on your attack (including all modifiers for feats such as mounted charge, weapon focus, and favored enemy) to create a standing attack DC. Then treat both attacks as happening simultaneously. Staying Mounted: There are three parts to staying mounted. Taking the Hit: You cannot attempt to use the Ride skill to use your mount as cover (this would be cheating), you must instead roll a proactive defense check vs the other's standing attack. This is done by rolling a 1d20+ your AC Bonus (just the bonus, not your total AC). Success means you take no damage and do not need to check keeping your seat or holding you weapons. Keeping your Seat: If you fail to defend against your opponents standing attack DC you must make a ride check to stay in the saddle as per the ride skill. In addition to the base DC of 5 add the total damage taken that round to the DC of the ride check. Holding your Weapons: If you fail to defend against your opponents standing attack you must also make a concentration check (DC10+Damage dealt). Failure results in you dropping your shield and lance. Sundered Lance: Jousting lances are made of wood, and will always be sundered when used. Using a metal lance will not be allowed unless the tourny is also to the death. To determine if a metal lance is sundered by a jousting round apply the total damage dealt (be the lance) directly to the lance ignoring hardness. Two Stages: A joust is a codified sport that is performed slowly and with care. Each round of the first stage of the competition may take two, three, or even more combat turns to be properly prepared. In some tournys entire minutes may go by as both sides (or a third party) speaks to the crowd (or the king). Taking damage and dropping weapons will not end the first stage (though points may be applied), but loosing your seat always activates the second stage of a joust. Stage Two: The second stage of a joust occurs when one or both of the contestants fall from the saddle. As soon as one or the other regains footing on the ground initiative is rolled and the fight is concluded with melee combat. Yielding: To properly yield is a move equivalent action, and no honorable opponent will continue to fight past this action is taken. [/indent] I am aware that there is a point system for tracking joust competitions. I am certain it is different depending on if you are in 13th century France or 14th century England, but it probably boils down to "point for a hit" "2 points for a solid hit" "3 points for hitting him so hard he drops his shield" - might have been codified in medals, badges, ribbons, pennants, and etc things as well. Some tourneys let you get knocked off the saddle and then get back in the saddle. And do a three strikes or TKO kinda thing, but the SCA runs a (what I assume to be classical) method where the joust moves to melee after one of them gets grounded.