I have developed an alternative language system that goes one step further than the official version of can/can't speak the language. The system divides each language in these 5 levels:
-Level 4: Language Mastery. This is the equivalent to the official way of learning a language, that is, you can speak it as well as if it was your native language. You may have a peculiar accent, but you can pass as a native speaker with an appropriate perform check, and the same for imitating specific accents. When you don't know a word in this language, it's unlikely that you know the equivalent in yours (and even you can know words in this language better than in yours, like learning one word for a specific Dwarven alloy without knowing that your people has another name for it, for the few people who know the alloy). Unless you are illiterate, you can read and write in this language as well as you can in your native one.
-Level 3: Language Use. At this level you can't pass off as a native speaker of the language. Your accent shows you are a foreigner speaker, and some times you'll have to slow down to think about what you are saying. Also, when people talk to you fast in an accent you aren't familiar with, you will need an Wis check to understand it (DC 10). To overhear what others are saying would be even more difficult. If you want to try, you must check Wis (DC 10) if they talk fast even if they are speaking in a familiar accent or if they talk in an unfamiliar accent even if they are speaking slowly. If they are doing both things, the DC is 15. When you are trying to understand or tell something complicated (with an uncommon verbal tense, or rare expressions or words), you must check Int (DC 10) or make a mistake in your translation, unless the person who is talking to you takes care to put everything clear for you. Some words you may not know are those with very specific meanings related to professions other than yours, for example. When you are reading/writing, you are subject to the DC 10 Int check for complicated concepts, but you can pass for a native writer with a DC 10 Int check.
-Level 2: Language Smattering. At this level, you can't have a normal conversation in this language. You can say simple things related with your day-to-day life, as can be sentences related to your profession, with adventures, lodging in an inn, buying things and so on. Nevertheless, you can communicate with other people using a combination of simple sentences and gestures. If you wish to tell something complicated (like using verbal tenses other that the present simple or using words whose finest shades you don't know) you will need to make an Int check (DC 15). To understand when other people are speaking to you, you must check Int (DC 15) to understand the main points unless they are saying very simple things and trying hard to make everything clear for you. Simply listening what they are saying to you requires a Wis check (DC 15) unless they are speaking slowly and clearly (the DC would rise by +5 if they are speaking specially fast or in an unfamiliar language, and both modifiers stack). To overhear a conversation requires a DC 20 Wis check (with the modifiers above). You can read and write the same things you can say and understand, with DC 15 checks to understand the main points of a text, and to explain yourself more or less clearly. You might not know the whole alphabet (of course, this doesn't apply if you know any other language which uses the same alphabet at level 3 or 4) and some obscure characters might confuse you.
-Level 1: Language Familiarity. You can't really speak or understand the language, but you know some words in it, and you can recognize it when it's spoken near you (with a DC 15 Int check if the accent isn't familiar to you) or when you see a writing sample. You might use the few words you can use to improve your communication a bit above gesturing, or saying extremely simple things such as "no do", "that danger"... You don't even know the whole alphabet unless you know another language that uses it at a better level. The words you know would be mostly related with your activities.
-Level 0: What Language?. You can't speak a word of this language, nor even recognize it. It's pure gibberish to you.
The standard way of using it is: 1 "rank" in Speak Language (1 Skill point if Class, 2 if Cross-Class) grants 4 Levels, and thus you can learn a language just like with the standard rules, but you would also be able to split the levels among more Languages. If Cross-Class, as an option, 1 Skill point would grant 2 Levels.
Another option is making this available in the character creation for the additional languages (1 additional language=4 Levels). Since characters would be able to communicate most times in many languages, other option is granting only 2 levels per "rank" or even per additional language.
Using these rules is better in a campaign with no Common language. They give the characters a little advantage for learning languages, so it could be a way to balance it to give them a lot of languages to learn in order to be able to even communicate with most people they find when they travel. This is why I started this system (my campaign doesn't have a common language), but in a campaign with common language it could be easily balanced with the first option I explain above.
Nirnel
How that plays in the game, well one of the things that I find interesting is that using language skill this way - replaces a little bit of the Sense Motive function. Were you to combine the two - similar to the way that Perform in 3.0 gave you an additional artistry per rank - Speak/Sense could give you levels in language proficiency per rank with the ability to distribute those levels over numerous different languages.
You know, paying attention is the way that you learn a language. Using it, even reading it, is no substitute for immersing your self in the language. By observing the active use of words and sentence constructions of living people you are sensing the proper use of the language - I guess that's where that idea came from.
I would hazard to add a fifth - to represent the extremely literate, the philologist level.
You could, of course, but it should not be automatic in native languages. Not every innkeeper knows the Common language at that level. So, if you want to use it, I advise you to grant only the 4 first levels for native languages, plus 4 more per additional language or language "rank".
As you can see, in Level 4 I stated that the depth in your knowledge of the language depends on your cultural level, so I already included something like that--to some extent.
If you want mechanics for it, you can use the appropriate knowledge (Language) skill. When high enough, you can tell if an expression is a valid variant or an mistake in the use of the language (DC 12). If it's higher, when you face a Language related to the one you know to this degree, you can also make a check and, with a success, treat it like if you had 1 more level in that language, to a maximum of 4, for only understanding one sentence --roll for any sentence you want to understand (DC 20). This doesn't make you automatically understand it (unless you already had 3 levels in it), but it rather lets you roll with less difficulty.
As an alternative using the 5th Level ("Language Philology?"), you automatically know the right variants and recognize the mistakes, but you must roll Int (DC 20) to understand one sentence in other -related- Language as if you had 1 lelev higher in it.
using language skill this way - replaces a little bit of the Sense Motive function.
The difference is well defined, I think. The Language lets you understand the meaning of the words, while Sense Motive lets you understand the speaker motive, maybe using the words as a way to help the deduction. Also, sense motive rarely lets you understand the whole meaning of a sentence in a language you don't understand, but the general meaning of it. (Hey, this guy wants us to bring something from up there for breaking his chains, something like an axe, I think.)
Treelior
For example, I have a human fighter that had common, dwarven, and elven. He spoke common as best as the next human could, though he had a habit of integrating a few dwarven words and phrases, which was another language that he was particularly fluent in due to his history of working as a smith in a dwarven delve. Elven, he simply picked up a smattering or words and useful phrases only because one of his friends was elven. So he could technically speak enough elven to get by, but I would imagine he often made mistakes in syntax or whatever.
My current wizard is somewhat of a linguaphile so I assume that she will be much more capable with the languages she possesses. Also in the game with her the DM has declared that the draconic tongue is so ancient and complex that few ever learn even a small portion of it, or are capable of fully communicating in it as it relies on grunts, whistles, and the full range of auditory abilities that a dragon can make.
The difference is well defined, I think.
Yeah, see my sense motive article in regards to my opinion of the sense motive skill.
I feel like we may be participating in a conceptual debate that has gone on numerous times - how detailed to make the language mechanics. As Antioch points out allot of players will take it upon themselves to declare their fluency.
I prefer to have some smattering of mechanics to at least disregard. I really, really like the idea of having a KS (Language), but my problem is two fold:
A: That's another KS skill that sucks combat useful skill points away when there is already a skill that is supposed to cover the concept.
B: Speak Language is the only skill that doesn't DO ANYTHING! Not a single other skill is "not rolled." How did this fly I ask you?
Sense Motive Resists Bluffs, and I have found it easier to Bluff people that didn't speak my language very well... I'm talking like haggling for barter in South America, yo! The better you understand language, the better you understand the source of ideas. Ever hear of Linguistic Determinism?
First time I read through I made an assumption – here's shea's skim rendition. I thought that those DCs were intended to be Speak Language DCs not Intelligence ability checks. I would personally far prefer a variant that changed the Speak Language skill into, ya know, a skill instead of this like skilly/featy sorta stacking special feature. I really have found myself avoiding translation issues - don't like the "skill" so much I try prevent anyone from even mentioning it.
Once (awhile ago), in a game I ran I declared the Speak language skill a performance (this was in 3.0 so the whole multi-arts with one skill rank total) and math was a language. You had to roll perform to get a rough count of your money (appraise went away too btw) and perform anytime I decided that what they were talking about got complicated. Was working ok till 3.5, then the things got whack crazy.
Have you ever noticed that you can say something in your native language that someone else that also speaks that native language still won't understand? Because you misspoke (did I say bear? I meant there). Think of Freudian slips and what not. I understand that the intent of the current language system as it is the way it is due to two things:
A: Common is and always has been an easy (and playable) work around.
B: GreyHawk (nor any of the other settings) has been quite the work of philology that middle earth was.
In a setting where linguistic and cultural connections are defined well enough to make reasonable mechanical judgments I feel that the language rules could be more resolved as well. What is the etymological relationship between drow, undercommon, common and elven anyway?
Erp! Another thing - how many words is that? (Yeah I can count, but I'm lazy) I think my reply might be nearly as long as the piece in question. I may be long winded but this one seems a little short. How about an example of play or something like umm, tables of DCs, or ummm
Language Feats?I couldn't find it off-hand on Google, but this is everywhere if you work for the federal government in any department that employs foreign language speakers. In fact, it is also used for evaluating English proficiency.
My point is, you have delineated the language levels pretty well...
SPEAK LANGUAGE
[Intelligence; trained only; class skill for Bard and Rogue]
The Speak Language skill does not work like a standard skill.
- You start at 1st level knowing one or two languages (according to your race) plus an additional number of languages equal to your Intelligence bonus. (See PHB, Chapter 2: Races.)
Check: If a character has spent at least a month around beings that made heavy use of a language he may make a so called Learn Check which is a Wisdom check against the language’s DC dependent on how complex that language is.
DC..............Language
..0..............Very simple structured languages
10..............Common languages with medium complexity
20..............Common languages with high complexity
30..............Ancient, rare, and/or higly complex languages
If the check succeeds the character is considered to have picked up and learned enough to being able to understand verbal representations expressed in that language and expressing himself well enough to conduct an unexceptional conversation, but he can neither read nor write in that language. A successful Learn Check equals one rank in that language.
You can buy up to 4 ranks in any specific Speak Language skill. Each additional rank in a specific Speak Language skill is acquired by succeeding in an Intelligence check against the language’s DC. Acquiring additional ranks in a Speak Language skill, represents the characters effort to master that language.
2 ranks – Speak (and write)
3 ranks - Speak (and write) as native
4 ranks - Masterly
For the purpose of determining maximum ranks all Speak Language skill ranks acquired through a successful Learn Check or Intelligence check are considered ranks of a virtual Speak Language (general) skill. So if a 1st level bard succeeds in four Learn Checks or Intelligence checks (in one or more languages) he has spent his maximum ranks in Speak Language.
Accomplishment by the Week/Day: You can make Learn Checks by the week instead of by the month, in which case the check's DC increases by 5. Checks by the day increase the check’s DC by 15.
Medium exposure to a language increases the check’s DC by 5.
Retry: You cannot retry to learn a language more than once a day.
Special: If you are making a Speak Language check untrained you make an Intelligence check against the language’s DC plus 15. Success means you are able to making yourself understood with much effort. If you have a minimum of 3 ranks in the appropriate Speak Language skill you gain a +1 synergy bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Perform, Read Lips, Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks.
A literate character with at least 2 ranks in a specific Speak Language skill can also read and write in that language.
In my CS everybody is considered illiterate unless he decides to learn to read and write by taking the Literacy skill
Suppose I am a 1st-level human with an Int of 15 (or an IQ of around 150). That's a +2, giving me two bonus languages, or 8 bonus levels in this system, plus my native language. So my linguistic skills would look something like this.
English (lv 4)
French (lv 2)
German (lv 1)
Italian (lv 1)
Japanese (lv 1)
Latin (lv 1)
Spanish (lv 1)
I would note that familiarity with Japanese took the most effort whereas familiarity with all those European languages came of simply hearing it when I was younger from various people/places/PBS specials. Oh, and I took French in high school.
He is one of my ideas based on your original concept: Change in the Feat Elf Dilettante from Races of the Wild
Prerequisites: ELf, Int 13.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all untrained skill checks. You can attempt untrained checks using skills that normally do not allow untrained use. You also gain one rank in a language you have had exposure to, at every level.
Four levels of language mastery is allot closer to the reality of the translational situation. I would hazard to add a fifth - to represent the extremely literate, the philologist level. A step beyond simply appearing to be native to a tongue is being capable of delving the origins of the language and progressing it both artistically and functionally.
In practice this could lead to people putting skill points in there mother tongue.
Not at all unreasonable but not currently supported by the rules. Would you give additional bonuses to "super fluent"? i.e. maybe bonuses to bluff (baffle 'em with ********) or perform?
I like it, but how do you acquire ranks? Also in Level 2 when you say "unfamiliar language" I am assuming you meant "unfamiliar accent"? The only thing I didn't like was the use of Ability Checks (which in my opinion are a little too random), but I can't think of anything else, and they are used effectively.0.5 ranks - very basic speaking ability OR limited reading/writing
1 ranks - conversational speaking ability and basic reading/writing. Accent sticks out like a sore thumb
1.5 ranks - high fluency. Either no accent or specialist in language
2 ranks - No accent and language specialist
Old or complex languages require an additional half rank
So, after ten months studying Turkish, I first tested at 2+/3. That meant my speaking skills were above basic but not quite comfortable, but my reading comprehension was advanced enough to read just about everything in the newspaper. I'm probably the opposite now, after three years in-country, having learned better speech patterns but neglecting "academic" vocabulary.
In the State Department, most people get by just fine with a 3 in speaking. You can conduct an interview, go shopping, chat with friends... but sitcom jokes will probably go over your head, and most slang is impenetrable.
People who test at 4 are rare, and have usually had experience with the language prior to their training (exchange students, studied it in college, etc). Virtually the only way to rate a 5 is to have been brought up speaking the language.
Rank
0 - You can't make heads or tales out of it
.5 - You understand basic words and some phrases. You don't understand most of what you hear, but you can tell the difference between "Nice day, isn't it?" and "I'm going to tear your head off!". You end up sounding like "Where me pray good go?" when you speak it.
1 - Basic fluency, you can speak the language normally, and understand when it is spoken to you. "Hey, where's the nearest temple?"
1.5 - Add rudimentary ability to read/write your chosen language. You have to stop and puzzle words out, and some you just don't get, but you can generally grasp the very basic idea of what is being said and/or get your basic point across.
2 - Literacy. You can write the language as well as you can speak it.
3 - Mastery. You're extremely good with the language, and can twist words to your own meaning, and can understand subtle nuances in the written word.
Everyone starts off with 1 rank in Common, and 1 rank in any racial language. Bonus languages from high intelligence don't give you the full language, they just give you bonus skillpoints to use as you see fit (as in, if you had an Int of 14, you'd normally get 2 bonus languages. In this, you'd get 2 points for language, which unless you're a Bard or something, means you could up common by 1 rank to become literate, speak another language normally, or pick up bits and pieces of 2 other languages).
And yes, it means all characters start the game being illiterate.
Never made sense, to Fixxxer or myself, why EVERY single turnip farmer is fully literate, while the "barbarian" isn't. It takes a lot of time and practice to learn to read, and there are many illiterate people in the world today (heck, I've got a cousin a couple times removed that can't read a word), and that sounds a lot more like a learned skill to me than an innate ability of being alive. There's a REASON why inns had such weird names, after all. Things like Tolkien's "Prancing Pony" didn't get that kind of a name because it was cute, it got that kind of name because it made for a unique picture to hang outside the place. People couldn't read "Prancing Pony", but they could sure recognize a picture of a horse prancing around.
My point is, you have delineated the language levels pretty well...
Maybe, but I didn't even know that your government used such a scale. The similarity might be because it's a very intuitive scale.Treelior
I like it, but how do you acquire ranks?
I wrote it in my original post, 1 skill point=1 rank (if class skill) or 2 skill points=1 rank (if cross skill)
Also in Level 2 when you say "unfamiliar language" I am assuming you meant "unfamiliar accent"?
Yes, I meant it.
The only thing I didn't like was the use of Ability Checks (which in my opinion are a little too random).
Well, I wanted a system that allowed for some confusion when trying to translate something in a language. That's the best idea that came to my mind.
Nirnel
Would you give additional bonuses to "super fluent"? i.e. maybe bonuses to bluff (baffle 'em with ********) or perform?
Sure - shouldnt speak language get a synergy bonus? Bluff, Diplomacy, and Perform (Oratory) +2.... Five 'ranks' eh?
shouldn’t speak language get a synergy bonus?
As this house rule is, obtaining 4 degrees in a Language is far easier than obtaining 5 ranks in any skill, even if we take 5 degrees instead of 4, which would unbalance it.
Thanks
Rekko
Speak Language (class skill to all class) gives +3 language points. [...]
Rekko
Well, I think that would be a drawback for those who have already Speak Language as a Class Skill, depending of how important would languages be in your campaign (in my campaign there is no common language, so it's very important and would unbalance a lot).
Well, the main point is that I don't really see the unbalancing part you spoke of.
Thanks
Rekko
I did do a little tweaking however...
1. Start with a rank of 3 in your native tongue and 2 in any other bonus languages to which your character is entitled. Demihumans can choose either language as their native tongue.
2. INT modifier determines the number of starting language levels that your character may distribute into any language to which he is entitled.
3. Additional language levels may be purchased with skill points in "speak language" (cross-class for most, so two skill points buys one language level.)
4. After 1st level, each time a character gains a new level, they receive one language level to place in any language they know, or to start a new one.
5. Some languages are more difficult than others. IMC elemental languages, (terran, ignan, aquan, and auran) cost double because they were not meant to be pronounced by non-elemental races.
I would like to hear how this has gone over in other campaigns as well.
Instead of Language levels, what if we used Knowledge: Local skill ranks?
Well, I don't think Local Skill would apply to languages such as elemental or planar ones nor draconic, nor even racial languages. It would be interesting to use it to recognize some local words, though
For example, learning French when you already know German, Italian, or even English is a lot easier than if you are only familiar with Mandarin and Nippongo.
To a large extent, languages like French, Italian, and Spanish are so similar that they're practically dialects of each other. You won't understand each other on many complicated specifics, but you'll probably understand basic simple concepts like mother, eat, and drink between languages. Once you know Italian, it's a lot easier to learn the rest of the Western European languages. Of course, English is a notable exception. English is so notoriously difficult to learn and master that it's (humorously) said that most of its native speakers can't be assumed to be fluent in it! To be fair, the same could be said of both Mandarin and Fukien.
I think this is a great house rule, and this should be the official way to learn a language in Dungeons & Dragons. However, it is kind of deterring if you begin with the negative aspects, and then tell the positive aspects. Also, it might be easier to comprehend if you begin with rank 0 and end with rank 4. These, however, are just some things that I found odd, so you don't have to adjust them.
I'd say I would have 4 ranks in both English and Dutch, 2 ranks in French and German, and 1 rank in a hell of a lot of languages! Doesn't that seem a lot more reasonable than simply stating Speak Language (Dutch, English, French, German)?
But really, if I ever play a game of Dungeons & Dragons, I would definitely beg my Dungeon Master to use this Speak Language system. You should really submit this straight to Dungeons & Dragons.