Which Classes Benefit
Depending on your class and what you do with your characters class abilities depends on how age can help. Amongst the classes that gain the most of old age are the ones who use spells. If you're a Bard who supports your party with magic, not a blade, then the added charisma bonus will help you cast more powerful spells. Not to mention the added bonus on your perform skill. Another class that gains to age is the Cleric. If your Cleric is the kind that chooses to cast spells instead of doing a lot of melee than the wisdom bonus also helps. The same goes for Druids though that Dexterity penalty might not make it worth it. Not that Druids have to worry a lot if they gained [b]Timeless Body[b] before getting old. Sorcerers can gain a lot from a Charisma bonus. If a Sorcerer is well protected he/she won't need to worry about that Dexterity penalty.
Benefits for the Entire Party
As weird as it may seem your eyesight and hearing get better with age. Wisdom effects Listen and Spot checks and since your Wisdom goes up so does your ability to succeed at these skills. I don't know if other parties do this but my party always had one person with high ranks in Spot and Listen to notice monsters. An old character usually had this job due to the increased Wisdom. If your party has a person especially good at negotiating than it might be a good idea to let them get to an age category to they are better at using Diplomacy and Bluff.
Countering Age Penalties.
What’s that? Your character is a Fighter who won't benefit from old age? Well, if your character started out young you probably have gained magic items over time that increase your stats. Of course it could be simpler to just start a new character. That's alright if you are a Fighter or any of the similar classes. Then again a trip to the Necrotic Cradle could let you restore your youth. The only problem with that is that your DM might not like the existence of such a place. Even if your DM does allow the Necrotic Cradle and other similar place to exist it still takes a lot of questing to reach it.
Reincarnate: "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand."
This would seem to imply that the physical stat drops are eliminated.
What about the mental stat increases? Are they gone, or do they remain?
If this has been addressed in an FAQ or a Sage article or something somewhere, I'd appreciate a link.
If you'll take a quick look at the aging categories, you'll note that while your physical penalties accrue as above, your mental boosts are locked at -1. So at venerable age, you end up with -3 phys, +1 ment.
I'd assume that the modifiers given to Wis, Int, and Cha are from years of knowledge and the such and even when Reincarnated would still remain. However the Str, Dex, and Con modifiers are from the aging body failing to survive and preparing to die. This my conclusion comes that even when Reincarnated you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha bonuses and your Str, Dex, and Con would essentially "reset" themselves to there original score. Some would assume that the Str, Dex, and Con would stay because even when reincarnated that is what your body is used to (though may be true) but it is not your capable physical stats that fail; it is what your body can handle and as such I believe they would "reset".
Sounds like a ready made quest for older characters to me!
When using Reincarnate, you strip your racial modifiers from your physical ability scores before determining your reincarnated race. Once that's determined, you apply the new racial modifiers as indicated on the chart in the spell's description.
Ferinstance:
An elf with physical ability scores of STR: 12, DEX: 18, CON: 12 dies in combat. No cleric is about to resurrect, but a druid is on hand and casts Reincarnate. Immediately prior to determining the reincarnated race, you have to remove the "elf" racial modifiers from DEX and CON, leaving the "soul" as it were with physical ability scores of STR: 12, DEX: 16, CON: 14. THOSE scores are then modified per the table once you determine into what form you get reincarnated.
Or maybe Jorge didn't start adventuring until he was older. He was a farmer and one day his wife and children were killed by orcs while he was out at the market. He has an old spear in a closet; he's never used it except briefly in some militia training long ago. He eventually falls in with a younger group of adventurers, and they look to him for advice and leadership although he has as much experience as them. Or maybe he feels alienated by these know-it-all youngsters, who are continually looking down at him as if he's stupid just because he's older and slightly slower moving.
Going out in the world is often a theme of fantasy: young people leave their village behind to discover the mysteries of the world. But what happens when a man who has lived in his village for 40+ years leaves it for the first time?
What happens if you're a Venerable person who gets killed and then Reincarnated into a new body?
Reincarnate: "The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand."
This would seem to imply that the physical stat drops are eliminated.
What about the mental stat increases? Are they gone, or do they remain?
If this has been addressed in an FAQ or a Sage article or something somewhere, I'd appreciate a link.
The mental stats would have to remain, unless the entire body is replaced, at which point, you'd have an entirely new personality to go along with the new body.
'Course, you just put your katra into McCoy and circumvent the argument entirely...
What I'd be more inclined to do, however, would be to make them do their physical scores over again. In points buy, this could basically be the same as it was before (taking out the points originally spent on mental ability scores and letting them rebuild their physical ones.) Or, if rolling, could be completely different.
Though I don't support the use of the Necrotic Cradle, I do support things like it (though they're more one-shot things for single people.)
The only question I have is, what about mental aging? A person cannot be resurrected after it was "their time" to pass on. But if a person is lying on their death bed and is somehow slain and reincarnated, does "their time" reset? Was an interesting point I thought up while reading the above posts.
This my conclusion comes that even when Reincarnated you keep your Int, Wis, and Cha bonuses and your Str, Dex, and Con would essentially "reset" themselves to there original score.
Which is why spellcasters go to so much trouble to become immortal (lichdom, etc).
In my opinion, and I'm thinking of adding this in my games, the mental stats shouldn't increase at all because of ageing. Though it is possible that a person's mental faculties improve over the years, it simply isn't necessarily so. Physical deterioration, however, is a fact. A mental stat increase should either happen at a fixed numerical value of time or it shouldn't accrue at all. The "normal" stat increases by level make a lot more sense.
There is, off course, the problem of casting it on yourself. Then again, crafting a one-shot item that is usable by anyone who knows the command word could work if you charm someone into using it on you.
I've noticed a common misconception with aging floating around the boards and it equates to this: Middle age = -1 phys, +1 ment: Old = -2 phys, +2 ment: Venerable = -3 phys, +3 ment.
If you'll take a quick look at the aging categories, you'll note that while your physical penalties accrue as above, your mental boosts are locked at -1. So at venerable age, you end up with -3 phys, +1 ment.
I may be wrong on this, but the way I read the rules and the example given on page 109 in the PHB, it’s that the increases and decreases stack. So when you hit venerable, you have taken -6 to your physical stats, but only +3 to your mental stats.
I've noticed a common misconception with aging floating around the boards and it equates to this: Middle age = -1 phys, +1 ment: Old = -2 phys, +2 ment: Venerable = -3 phys, +3 ment.
If you'll take a quick look at the aging categories, you'll note that while your physical penalties accrue as above, your mental boosts are locked at -1. So at venerable age, you end up with -3 phys, +1 ment.
Epifreak is, in fact, wrong.
At Middle age you take a -1 to physical, +1 to mental.
At Old you take an additional -2 to physical, and an additional +1 to mental.
And at Venerable you take another -3 to physical/+1 to mental.
So in other words:
Middle Age: Physical -1, Mental +1
Old: Physical -3, Mental +2
Venerable: Physical -6, Mental +3
Thanks
Vita
What of aging effects for being younger than 'Adult'. That's never talked about. I'm sure there are thieves that are 8 years old, what if a player wants to play that, and you wish to grant it for him. Does something exist for that, or should you just make it up?
I don't recall seeing anything on this for D&D, however SWRPG did have ability adjustments for people younger than Adult (teen, child, young adult, If I recall correctly.) I don't have the book on me, but you might be able to find something if you researched in that direction. For non-human races, you'd have to extrapolate the information from what you're given.
I've noticed a common misconception with aging floating around the boards and it equates to this: Middle age = -1 phys, +1 ment: Old = -2 phys, +2 ment: Venerable = -3 phys, +3 ment.
If you'll take a quick look at the aging categories, you'll note that while your physical penalties accrue as above, your mental boosts are locked at -1. So at venerable age, you end up with -3 phys, +1 ment.
Here friend you are wrong. Please turn to the PHB 3.5 pg. 109, the paragraph right after the "Random Starting Ages" Table. It clearly states that "With age, a character's physical ability scores decrease and his or her mental ability scores increase (see Table 6-5: Aging Effects). The effects of each age step are cumulative. However, none of a character's ability scores can be reduced below 1 in this way".
The mental stats would have to remain, unless the entire body is replaced, at which point, you'd have an entirely new personality to go along with the new body.
'Course, you just put your katra into McCoy and circumvent the argument entirely...
What do you mean "entire body is replaced". It's reincarnate meaning the "entire" body IS replaced. Mental stats remain. Just because you were a human and then reincarnated to an elf doesn’t make you any dumber. Or if you were a human and reincarnated to a cat doesn’t make you less wiser. No physical stats are determined by the spell as is and mental stats remain.
In my games, Reincarnate creates a body of the same age category as your previous one, and if it really matters, the same percentage of the way through the age category.
For example, if you're a 60 year old human reincarnated as an elf: You get an 'old' elf body. Humans are Old at 53 and Venerable at 70 -- a difference of 17 years. You were 7 years into that; 7/17 is 0.412. The minimum Old for elves is 263, and the maximum is 350, a difference of 87 years. 0.412 times 87 is nearly 36 years, so add that to the minimum Old age, and your new elvish body is just short of 299 years old.
But that's probably a little too much detail to go into. Normally it only matters that you're an Old Elf.
The bonuses and penalties that apply to aging are unnamed. To me, this implies an inherent ability adjustment.
Now for the rules on adjusting physical abilities as found in the Reincarnate spell:
[indent]Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, it’s new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated).[/indent]
Note that although the spell tells you to eliminate racial adjustments, it does not tell you eliminate age-based adjustments. In my opinion, those adjustments carry over.
Moreover, as this body continues to age, it too will be subject to more age penalties. Most significantly are serious penalties to Constitution. (If, due to frequent reincarnation, you are reduced to 1st level, you lose two more Con, which could render you unable to reincarnate.)
The point is that if you're going to use Reincarnate to escape death, you're better off doing it before losing a Con point for heading from Adulthood in Middle Age. Otherwise, you're eventually going to end up with a 1 in each of your physical abilities!
"Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. "
Since the penalties from aging come from the aging of the body, getting a new one (body) that has no physical ills and afflictions would remove the aging penalties.
1) Give them building-points they get for a normal build: one third for caster-types, two-thirds for combat-types, to make it somewhat balanced. Add racial stuff after that.
2) Have them roll as normal, no rerolls; the body is new, but random and they should be grateful for it; makes perfect sense.
3) If the players argue too much, just give them the stats 10, 12, 14 to place as they see fit. The new body will be okay, but not overly powerful.
Part 1
Aging effects are removed completely both physical penalties and mental bonuses. The reasoning behind this is my recollection of the spell description, which includes not only the parts referring to a new body but also a phrase along the lines of "the subject remembers most of his previous life." I use this to justify a person "forgetting" all those life lessons that improved his mental stats.
Part 2
The new body's age is determined as a new character, which is to say they are at a standard starting age for their new race or a reasonable DM adjusted age if no standard starting age is listed in the PHB. This may seem unbalanced but I believe is the closest to the spell description. Part 3 addresses balance issues.
Part 3
Characters still die when their "original" age limit is up. This keeps the spell balanced for its level. If you haven't rolled it do it the first time they reincarnate. Send in the inevitable if they use a secondary method to escape death. The spell description doesn't mention age limits I believe so I don't personally feel the player is entitled to a new one.
This produces an effect that doesn't give "free" bonuses, fits a loose interpretation of the spell description, and doesn't provide infinite life span. Oh, and you still get raised from the dead with a 4th level spell which will always be what's really cool about reincarnate.
What of aging effects for being younger than 'Adult'. That's never talked about. I'm sure there are thieves that are 8 years old, what if a player wants to play that, and you wish to grant it for him. Does something exist for that, or should you just make it up?
Thanks
Vita
I am sure I have also seen the same penalties listed for young characters:
young adult -1 all stats
child -1 all stats
toddler -1 all stats
These are cumulative for the lower the age goes so a toddler has -3 to all stats. This is assuming you base the adjustments off the base ones set.
I also houseruled on this on that toddlers and children are considered one size category smaller (this is a houserule) for this. Of course this has the stat modifiers for going up or down sizes as per the rule book.
I used this as I had a player who wanted to play a planetouched sorcerer that started as a child. We worked out the base starting stats and applied all these modifiers, which would be reversed as certain ages were achieved. The character was quite interesting, and the others did there bit in trying to protect them during the game, which was also quite funny considering the powers the child had (with physical stats that were shocking though)
- In real life people are actually more intelligent when they are younger, although their accumulated knowledge would be higher at a later age. A venerable former world-champion chess player can never ever consistently beat a young champion in his prime. In fact, real life IQ charts take age into account to adjust for the decrease in intelligence over time. The older person would know more, but that should be reflected in their skill ranks, not base ability score.
- Intelligence is also a very physical ability, that relate to the structure and composition of your brain (cells and synapses). If there were such a thing as a soul, and it could pass into another body (reincarnate), you would be limited to the intelligence of that body. Struggling to cram all your knowledge into a less sophisticated brain would be like running modern software on an old computer; you'd find it slow or in many ways not working at all.
- Is it your general experience that older people are generally more charismatic than young ones? No, me neither. I've seen a few introverted people learning to become more charismatic in their early twenties, but never suddenly becoming more charismatic as they get old and venerable. In fact, a lot of older people seem less charismatic to young people, as they are often stuck in their ways, and lack the ability to communicate and relate to younger people. Charisma in many ways seems to be something you're to a great extent born with - and another function of your brain along with intelligence.
- And the wisdom thing is funny too, but that is mostly due to a basic flaw in the ability structure of the d20 system. It is a grouping of mental characteristics that really have nothing to do with each other (perception, philosophical enlightenment, common sense and judge of character, etc.).
These are cumulative for the lower the age goes so a toddler has -3 to all stats. This is assuming you base the adjustments off the base ones set.
Fear the future Half-Orc Barbarian, who as a toddler could crush puny adult humans in his tiny fist with his 17 Strength, and lift 130 lbs. over his head!*
* - assuming a toddler is a Tiny Humanoid. In some cases he may count as a Quadruped.
So an 8 year old human having 8 in all stats. Any aspect of a boy that is bigger and stronger than the others of his age, will only start to show around the children's 11th birthday, and grow more obvious over the next few years.
It’s by no means perfect, but it is simple.
What happens if you're a Venerable person who gets killed and then Reincarnated into a new body?
...
This would seem to imply that the physical stat drops are eliminated. What about the mental stat increases? Are they gone, or do they remain?
In my campaign, we houseruled that Reincarnate creates a body of the same age category you were previously. While not as much fun, it does bypass the "immortal bodyhopping druid" problem (I'm venerable now? Here, stab me and then reincarnate me.) and explains why an old-age death can't be reversed -- the spell would create a new body that's at the end of its natural span, so it can't work.
I might allow that True Reincarnation, a ninth-level spell (which lets you roll twice on the table and pick your favorite result), resets you to a young adult body, though you'd have to lose the mental bonuses too -- say it's the impulsiveness of youth flooding back, all those raging hormones overriding better judgment. I might allow that the character can keep a +1 to all mental stats; a moderate bonus but not too much.