Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dastardlydan Dec 28, 2007 20:16:00	(Originally posted under Magic & Spells before I found this area of the boards) From my understanding of the stats, they work like this: From the PHB 3.5, pg. 9: WISDOM (WIS) Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. I see what they are stating (and I understand that it's RAW), but I also notice that besides your Will save, Wisdom doesn't affect anything else that (to my understanding) that represents willpower. Mechanics-wise, Wisdom is your perception and understanding stat. From the PHB 3.5, pg. 9 CHARISMA (CHA) Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. Now, by my understanding, it seems to me from these two descriptions (excepting the fact that willpower is specifically stated under what Wisdom is), Charisma is more appropriate for Will saves. It's your force of personality that helps you to shake things off, not your perception of the world. I believe that the mechanics even support this idea, since I remember that there are quite a few spells that allow a Will save, but in the spell description it states that to use the ability in certain ways, an opposed Charisma check is needed. Another thing that I feel is a valid point: I think that, in the case of spellcasters, their Will save should always be based on their primary mental stat. It's a built-in imbalance in the game, because Wis based casters, by default, are going to have a better Will save than Int and Cha based casters. I do know that, in Complete Adventurer, there is a feat to correct this error: Force of Personality allows you to use your Charisma modifier for your Will save instead of your Wisdom. I'd say that another feat, call it Force of Intellect, should allow you to replace your Wisdom mod on Will saves with your Int mod. But, again, this leaves an imbalance, because Cha and Int based casters will have to spend a feat that Wis based casters wouldn't. Again, this is just my opinion, and I want to see what other people think. I understand that the Mental stats were used the way they were to maintain game balance, and to keep it as simplified as possible.
#2 fearsidhe Dec 30, 2007 9:17:01	Hello there. I partially agree with what you're saying, but have some quips. First off, I don't think that it's reasonable for casters to use their primary stat to govern Will saves. Clerics and sorcerers have to use their Intelligence score for skill points. Everybody has to use Strength for melee attacks. Everyone uses Dexterity for armor class. The point is that every stat is ideally useful for every character. There's no obvious dump stat (though Charisma comes close b/c it's really only used for certain skill checks unless you have magical abilities that specifically draw on it). Also, note that while mental saves are called "Will saves," I think that in most cases it's reasonable that most Will saves are in fact based in whether a person can hold onto their senses and not have an outside force pull switches in their brain. I'd say that that is in fact very Wisdom-based; even though I agree with you that "willpower" might best be described as an attribute of Charisma.
#3 dicegolem Dec 30, 2007 15:10:17	I actually don't know if using Charisma on Will saves instead of Wisdom would have too much impact on the nature or balance of the game. Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Paladins... any class with a Charisma-based element would definitely see the immediate benefit. I wouldn't mind the spellcasting Charisma classes to have a Will save boost, mostly because I see them as being closer to the 'innate' spellcasting (read: spell-like abilities) of many monsters. Paladins may suffer a bit more by not having another useful aspect for their Wisdom score, now only needing it for perception and spellcasting, but I think the stereotype of the stubborn 'smite all the evil' paladin is supported by a low Wisdom score. Clerics, Druids, Monks, and other Wisdom-based classes may take a slight hit to their will saves. Clerics and Druids should, arguably, have a noticeable charisma to begin with (the former for Turning Undead, the later for communing with their animal friends), and would ideally not be too affected by the change. Monks would definitely feel the hit, as Charisma doesn't actually do them any good mechanically, but they still have a higher base will save bonus than other melee classes to compensate for already, and would make a nice middle ground between Fighter (nonexistent) and Sorcerer (uber-powered). And then there's the -2 Charisma races. Personally, it still makes good sense to me. Any race with reduced Charisma carries a connotation of primitiveness. The racial cesspools of orcs, goblinoids, and etc would be more susceptible to mind-affecting magic, and it makes perfect sense to me. Even dwarves, an advanced culture with their -2 Charisma, have a predisposition towards shunning magic - and they have a bonus against spells and spell-like abilities to back it up. Of course, some races don't match up. The Elan from Expanded Psionics is a great counter-example, because they are all about the power of the mind with, you guessed it, a -2 Charisma. In fact, their ability penalty is based solely on social interaction, as opposed to general force of personallity in general, so it may be appropriate in this system to change some glaringly misfitting racial traits. Perhaps they don't fit in sometimes due to their low Wisdom, leading them to become Psions and Wilders instead of Psychic Warriors? In short, I think it makes sense. While Wisdom still has the important task of perception to fall back on, Charisma is only useful if the DM says it is. Charisma has a bad rep, I think, because it's generally useless in most situations. Roleplaying can encompass the use of Charisma entirely, or hack-'n-slash gaming can ignore any semblance of social mechanics. Giving any player a reason to say "Thank goodness I put those points into Charisma" is a good thing in my book. There are a few hurdles to get over, though. The Charisma stereotype needs to be overthrown. Many players use Charisma as a dump stat because it doesn't affect their character in any meaningful way. Changing it so that Charisma suddenly has a very important use means that players have less places to shove low ability scores. Characters, in short, need to be more rounded in this system, or a low ability score will be a glaring character flaw. And that's just the start, I'm sure there's more I'm not noticing now, like the greater chance of stretching needed ability scores thinner, but I still think that this would be an improvement to the system.
#4 aelryinth Dec 30, 2007 15:13:46	Devoted Intellect is a feat which allows you to use your Int for your Will save, AND to use Int instead of Wis for just about every Wis-based Skill check out there, too. Wis was chosen to represent the Will save because it represents inner awareness of what the magic is trying to do to you, and so you throw it off because you realize something is messing with how you think. Cha is more like a charging bull, and the Will save bypasses it to send it careening down a new street, rolling over the hapless folk in its path. That said, your description IS spot on, and yeah, spellcasters should use the stat for their Will save. If they happen to draw from multiple traditions, use the best, it won't hurt. It's supposed to be hard to use willpower stuff against a caster. On the flip side, get rid of the +2 every time you enter a class with a strong Will save to balance things out! ===Aelryinth
#5 Daybreaker Dec 30, 2007 16:13:59	Is there a logical connection between perception and willpower, though? I think there is. It's a Gnostic sort of thing. Wisdom could also be called "Sense." In knowing the world around you, you know yourself, and this gives you sturdiness of character. You aren't easily swayed by, y'know, mind control rays and stuff. I think Concentration checks should be made with Wisdom, also, personally. Is there some game balance reason they aren't?
#6 Qube Dec 31, 2007 10:43:18	WISDOM (WIS) Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. CHARISMA (CHA) Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. Illusions have a Will save. It's your perception (hey you can see through the wall) and common sense/intuition (that can't be a wall, we're in the middle of the ocean ...) that help to disbelieve stuff. Enchantments have Will saves ... again, common sense/perception (wait a second, if you're my friend, why did I attack you the previous round before you cast that spell), intuition (no, you're not my friend, I just know it ...) (wait a second, why does that pool of water have 'acid' on the side ?) Repulsion has Will saves ... again willpower is needed (many many anime examples ... "I ... MUST ... SUCCEED ...") You don't shake things off, your perception/common sense sees through illusions, your intuition/common sense helps you see through enchantments. Your willpower helps you break invisible barriers.
#7 biggus Jan 02, 2008 14:01:33	Basically, I agree with what strenoth said on the other thread: Cha is about what comes out of your mind - how easily you can influence others - while Wis is about what goes into it - how easily others can influence you. I would argue that the conception of Wisdom as a whole does (or can) make sense. I interpret wisdom as meaning "internal balance, strength, subtlety and self-awareness". A wise person is one who is able to listen carefully to what their mind, their feelings etc. are telling them. Such a person is more intuitive because they can quieten their internal monologue and hear what their deeper mind (the part which sees the bigger picture) has to say. They can perceive external events more clearly because they are more able to concentrate on the here and now, rather than having an internal argument about what someone said to them last Tuesday, and because being more aware of their prejudices, they are more able to see what is actually there, rather than what they expect to be there. And their willpower is greater because, knowing themselves better, they are less easy to deceive, intimidate, or otherwise pressure into surrender; their goals are clearer, they understand the price of failure better, they are less easily distracted. So, to me, willpower is a natural part of wisdom. Many great religious figures who are considered the epitome of wisdom (having gone beyond individual self-knowledge to self-perception as an intrinsically connected part of a greater whole, which they have achieved an understanding of the nature and purpose of) had a determination which was unshakable by any circumstance, even the threat of death (of course, many of them actually did die for their beliefs) - which sounds to me like someone very strong-willed. Having said all that, I don't think it would be unreasonable to base will saves on Cha rather than Wis; the two do overlap, after all (as do most abilities). I'm just trying to show why it makes sense to me to use Wis.
#8 grod_the_giant Jan 12, 2008 11:52:05	Illusions have a Will save. It's your perception (hey you can see through the wall) and common sense/intuition (that can't be a wall, we're in the middle of the ocean ...) that help to disbelieve stuff. I see where you're coming from. Will saves make sense for illusions. Enchantments have Will saves ... again, common sense/perception (wait a second, if you're my friend, why did I attack you the previous round before you cast that spell), intuition (no, you're not my friend, I just know it ...) (wait a second, why does that pool of water have 'acid' on the side ?) This, on the other hand, does not. While your arguments are all valid, if someone is attempting to dominate your mind, you fight back with your willpower- an attribute that, as the original poster said, is more closely linked to charisma then wisdom. Repulsion has Will saves ... again willpower is needed (many many anime examples ... "I ... MUST ... SUCCEED ...") As I said above, the original poster was saying that, except for where it is stated, charisma is linked a lot more closely to mental strength then wisdom. You don't shake things off, your perception/common sense sees through illusions, your intuition/common sense helps you see through enchantments. Your willpower helps you break invisible barriers. Again...I see your point about illusions- it should, perhaps, be a spot/search check instead of a will save. But you fight off enchantments, repulsions and so forth, through mental strength...which, as has been said before, is linked more closely to Charisma.
#9 prime32 Jan 13, 2008 10:31:08	I've always thought that Wis to Will saves was odd, as it didn't seem to fit with the other applications of the score. But I began to think... Imagine you are watching a commercial, telling you that some new product is brilliant, amazing, and will change your life. The kids around you start jumping up and down shouting "I wannit! I wannit!" while you sit back and sigh. Now, is resisting the effects of the commercial based on Wisdom or Charisma?
#10 quarkus Jan 13, 2008 13:45:45	But you fight off enchantments, repulsions and so forth, through mental strength...which, as has been said before, is linked more closely to Charisma. As I see it, Strength equals Charisma, since both allow you to interact with the world. Dexterity equals Intelligence, since both represent a type of agility, one of the body, the other of the mind. And finally, Constitution equals Charisma, as both define how will you react to external stimuli (and how much harmful stimuli can your body/mind handle).
#11 robespierre Jan 19, 2008 13:01:37	Doesn't it say somewhere in the DMG that one could use different stats for different saves at different times? If one takes this advice, like I do, one gets saves that are not completely tied to one particular ability score. Enchantments require Will saves, but the ability modifier used is Cha. Fear effects and such require Wis. Depending on how the player rationalizes their characters reactions, I occasionally allow Int. The same goes for the other saves: I have used Str for a Fort save, and Int for a Refl save for example, and have also done stuff like that for skills. If one were to do it that way, one would only need to add: "the save against this spell/effect is *** based" to the spell description.
#12 Green Jan 21, 2008 10:48:35	CHARISMA (CHA) Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. Now, by my understanding, it seems to me from these two descriptions (excepting the fact that willpower is specifically stated under what Wisdom is), Charisma is more appropriate for Will saves. It's your force of personality that helps you to shake things off, not your perception of the world. I believe that the mechanics even support this idea, since I remember that there are quite a few spells that allow a Will save, but in the spell description it states that to use the ability in certain ways, an opposed Charisma check is needed. That's something that always seemed odd to me, too. I think I stated as much a long time ago. But it's good to see someone else thinking about it. Another thing that I feel is a valid point: I think that, in the case of spellcasters, their Will save should always be based on their primary mental stat. It's a built-in imbalance in the game, because Wis based casters, by default, are going to have a better Will save than Int and Cha based casters. I do know that, in Complete Adventurer, there is a feat to correct this error: Force of Personality allows you to use your Charisma modifier for your Will save instead of your Wisdom. I'd say that another feat, call it Force of Intellect, should allow you to replace your Wisdom mod on Will saves with your Int mod. But, again, this leaves an imbalance, because Cha and Int based casters will have to spend a feat that Wis based casters wouldn't. The easiest solution is to change the current RAW and make Charisma into the base stat for Will saves. Classes like the cleric and monk (and possibly the ranger and/or paladin) could gain the ability to add the Wisdom bonus to will saves as a class ability. Maybe not at 1st level, but it should definitely be on there. There is a precedent with the monk, who can add his Wisdom bonus to AC. Everyone else would have to take a feat. First of all, it makes Charisma relevant for non-casters. Sure, you have the social skills, but that's highly campaign-dependent. Some DMs create situations where they're useful, some allow roleplaying to bypass it altogether, and some don't include enough social interaction roleplaying to make those skills worthwhile. Second, it encourages more well-rounded characters, especially in point-buy. With more attributes being useful in an adventuring context, it discourages dump stats. After all, the PCs are the heroes (or at least the main characters). Although the lop-sided hero is fun as a concept, it should not be the default. Heroes in D&D are meant to have higher innate capacity than the average person with their chosen vocation (aka stats higher than 10), but they should be at least average in things that are not (nothing lower than 10). Even in the case of lop-sided heroes, I can point to more examples of high Charisma-low Wisdom (strong ego but not too much common sense) heroes in mythology and literature than I can the opposite.
#13 wheldrake Jan 22, 2008 11:07:23	This, on the other hand, does not. While your arguments are all valid, if someone is attempting to dominate your mind, you fight back with your willpower- an attribute that, as the original poster said, is more closely linked to charisma then wisdom. Wrong: willpower is specifically cited as a quality of wisdom - the relevant descriptions are quoted above. As I said above, the original poster was saying that, except for where it is stated, charisma is linked a lot more closely to mental strength then wisdom. Wrong: charisma is a projection of your ideas, desires and plans on others; you persuade them, convince them, lead them. The concept of "mental strength" most closely applies to wisdom, your "character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition". I just don't get the point espoused by the OP. What's more, if you don't need wesdom to have a strong will save, it becomes even more of a "dump stat" than it already is for so many classes of character. YMMV, --- Wheldrake
#14 furryhowler Jan 27, 2008 14:31:30	I like to think of the mental stats as akin to the Shadowrun mental/astral stats.... So that Charisma is the "astral strength" because its the "active will" stat - the ability to impose will on another. Wisdom would be then the equivalent of SR Willpower/"astral body" because its the "inherent will" stat - the stat of mental coherence and solidity.
#15 symphonic_tempest Mar 03, 2008 23:20:29	The way I see it, making a Will save against something mind-affecting isn't about force of personality, it's about noticing and sidestepping what someone's trying to do to you (as has been stated above earlier). "Oh look, someone's trying to convince me that I'm their friend - ugly bugger probably doesn't even have any friends, and I'm certainly not going to be the first." That is, I see a successful Will save not as "the force of your willpower pushing back the overpowering magical effect", but more as "you notice what's being done to control your mind, and knowing that, are able to ignore it." In briefest form: I think it's appropriate, as I think a successful Will save is most like a successful Sense Motive check. I also think this holds true not just for illusions, but for enchantments, repulsion, and other effects. Are you willpowering the effect away, or are you simply realizing that you don't have to follow it? I think the latter.