Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 oakspar77777 Dec 07, 2003 18:48:30	Negotiations In negotiations, you have a Buyer and a Seller who have agreed to bargain upon an item (the Seller has one, and the Buyer wants one). First, a "Base Price" is agreed upon. Items in the PHB have a set "Base Price". The DM has "Base Prices" for items in the DMG. Even gems and items of art have "Base Prices" that are determined by the DM, but kept secret. The Buyer and the Seller use Appraise (modified by Craft Synergy if applicable) to determine what they believe the "Base Price" should be. PC sells all items (other than trade goods, gems, and art) at 1/2 "Base Price". If the Seller Appraises higher than the buyer, than the Buyer can take the Seller's "Base Price" or choose to walk away. If he walks, the Seller can take the Buyer's Price if he chooses or let him go. If the Buyer's Price is higher, than the Seller gets a +2 circumstance bonus on his "Sales Pitch". A Seller can intentionally "Price low" for this bonus (but seldom will it come out in the Seller's advantage to do so). Unless the Buyer "Walks," then the transaction occurs (a PC can not back out just because the deal starts to go bad). The "Base Price" refers to the agreed upon "Base Price" achieved through the Appraise skill (which modifies the "True Base Price" that only the DM knows for items not listed in the PHB). The Seller then makes a Sale's Pitch: either a Diplomacy or Bluff check (depending on whether the seller is attempting to sell the item on its merits, which is Diplomacy, or whether he is attempting to scam, fast talk, or huckster an item for more than it is worth, which is Bluff). The Buyer then makes a Sense Motive check. If they tie, then the Buyer buys the item at the agreed upon base price and the negotiations are finished. If the Seller wins, the Buyer buys the item at an increased price. For each point the Seller wins by, the cost increases by 1% if using Diplomacy or 2% if using Bluff. If the Buyer wins, then the Seller sells the item at a reduced price. For each point the Buyer wins by, the cost is decrease by 1% if the Seller used Diplomacy or 3% if he used Bluff (more to gain by such means, but much more to loose if the buyer doesn't believe your pitch). All items over 100gp should be done through negotiations, as well as all items not in the PHB. Negotiations can be done on lesser items as well, if the PC wishes to attempt to wheel and deal for a lesser price or if the DM deems that it fits the context (such as bargaining for the last mule in town). Scarcity can also effect the base price of items. In a siege, for example, it is not uncommon for the base price of food to increase a hundred fold. Regional distribution can also affect price, as in Swamp Terrain, horses will be more expensive. Wood items will be more costly in Desert Terrain. These modifiers affect the True Base Cost and are subject to the usual risk of Appraisal. This system is intended to add realism, and should be used for that purpose. It is perfectly acceptable for PC not to bargain when they buy things and simply to put down money at the Seller's base price for their items and leave (thus avoiding scams but also missing deals). They should have to go through this process if they are attempting to sell an item, however. Magical items create another difficulty, in that they must be identified for any understanding of worth. Any large town with a mage guild will likely provide documents of authenticity on any item that they are paid to Identify. Other transactions might take into account the 110+ GP cost of Identifying an item. Most of the time, however, the Seller will have to Identify the item, and the Buyer will insist upon Identifying the item as well. Only once both parties have Identified the Item will the transaction take place. Merchants familiar with adventurers will keep items like Scrolls/Potions(Oil) of Identify on hand. Merchants and Shops See the DMG for maximum item value for a community. There are two types of storekeepers: producers and retailers. Producers make what they sell. They will have to be able to make any item that they sell, even on a natural 1 on a craft check. (Non-Adventurers seldom leave anything to chance in their day to day lives). That means MW crafting tools, items that boost skills (Like Craft, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff), and maybe even items that boost stats (for very high end stores). Once a DM has determined the type of store, and the most expensive item available in/through it, he creates a Producer NPC capable of making all of those items. Note that Producing merchants will have very little merchandise in stock. Most of that will be "display" pieces that show off the merchant's skill. Instead they will work on commission, demanding the 1/3 or 1/2 material cost as the down payment. Producing merchants are not good for getting "on demand" items, but are the place to go for very specialized "High End" merchandise (Small MW Full Plate Armor) or for improvement on existing gear (Enchanting a +1 Sword into a +2 Flaming Sword). Producing merchants make their money on the difference in-between material cost and base cost. Negotiation skills and feats are secondary to Crafting skills and feats. The other type of merchants are Retailers. They do not produce the items that they sell. Sometimes, they do not even own the items in their stores. They take money, either their own or investors, and use it to buy items from producers at cost beneath "Base Price" either through contract ("I will buy 100 longswords from you a year if you sell them to my at 80%") or superior Negotiation skills (see Negotiation, above). They then turn and sell those items above "Base Price" again using their superior Negotiation skills. Obviously, this is a much smaller profit line, meaning that they must move more merchandise. That means more stock on the shelves to choose from. That also means that they will only exist in areas where there is a market to support them. Retailers are bad places to go for rare items (since they will seldom have them, and have a serious mark up on commission). They also usually do not provide as good of prices (due to better negotiations). They are, however, the only place to get items on demand and the only place to go to sell items (since your average producer only is interested in items if they are being sold purely on their bulk metal value). Retailers are more common in large cities where the producers are centralized in industrial districts. Producers are more common in smaller villages that can not support Retailers.
#2 jeff-heikkinen Dec 09, 2003 18:58:48	Originally posted by Oakspar77777 Negotiations Producers make what they sell. They will have to be able to make any item that they sell, even on a natural 1 on a craft check. (Non-Adventurers seldom leave anything to chance in their day to day lives). There is no need for this. They need only be able to make the item by taking 10 to not leave anything to chance. Most people take 10 most of the time when they use skills, I should think. Other than that, interesting; I'd have to do some number-crunching on it but it looks alright from where I sit. I definitely want a system for bargaining in my next game, though I will probably make it its own skill (a suggestion that went over very well with my players when I first thought of it, and that has since been implemented in the D20 version of Traveller). One thing that is remotely possible under your system, that isn't under most rules for this that I've seen, is pulling off outrageous scams with the Bluff skill. Since such things do occasionally happen in both reality and heroic fiction, not to mention lots of more modern fiction, this is probably a feature, not a bug :D . I like it.
#3 Skikka Jan 07, 2004 15:32:15	One thing I might change is have the buyer have to oppose Bluff with Sense Motive but be able to oppose Diplomacy with another Diplomacy attempt. A gullible person might fall for scams, but a diplomatic one might be able to haggle for a good price.