Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Nathreet Apr 13, 2008 18:36:13	I'd like to make a simpler skill system. The new skills fully encapsulate the old ones listed. Some things are taken from 4e, some from a campaign I started playing in. What I'd really like to know is, will this create balance/etc. issues?? Basic Skills (untrained ok) Acrobatics (Dex): balance, escape artist, tumble. Plus ride to: Guide with Knees, Stay in Saddle, Fight with Warhorse, Cover, Soft Fall, Fast Mount/Dismount. Athletics (Str): climb, jump, swim Negotiating (Cha): diplomacy, sense motive, gather information, intimidate Deception (Cha): bluff, disguise, forgery Perception (Wis): listen, search, spot Stealth (Dex): hide, move silently Heal (Wis): Unchanged. Special Skills Nature (Wis): knowledge(dungeoneering), knowledge(nature), survival Civilization (Int): knowledge(geography), knowledge(local) History (Int): knowledge(nobility & royalty), knowledge(history), decipher script for ancient writings Cosmology (Int): knowledge(religion), knowledge(planes) You may want to categorize the first 4 special skills under "Lore" or "Knowledge", if that helps remove confusion. Profession (Wis): Business sense, nothing more. No longer a multi-skill. Specific uses of the old profession skill require various other skills. Perform (Cha): Unchanged. Theft (Dex): open lock, sleight of hand, disable device Craft (Int): Old categories replaced with alchemy, carpentry (wood), smithing (metal), masonry (stone, bricks), tayloring (cloth, leather), art (paintings, sculptures), gemcutting, others. Many knowledge checks now require craft checks instead. Weaponsmithing, bowmaking, armorsmithing and blacksmithing fall under carpentry, smithing and tayloring (depending on the material). Handle Animal (Cha): Keep all old uses. Add ride checks to: Leap, Spur Mount, Control Mount in Battle. Spellcraft (Int): knowledge(arcana), spellcraft, decipher script for scrolls Minor Details Class Skills Barbarian: athletics, craft, handle animal, nature Bard: acrobatics, athletics, civilization, cosmology, craft, deception, history, negotiation, speak language stealth, spellcraft. Cleric: cosmology, craft, heal, histoy, negotiation, profession, spellcraft. You'll need to come up with a way to handle class skills granted by domains. Druid: craft, handle animal, heal, nature, negotiation, perception, profession, spellcraft Fighter: athletics, craft, handle animal Monk: acrobatics, athletics, craft, negotiation, perception, profession, spellcraft, stealth Paladin: cosmology, craft, handle animal, heal, negotiation, profession Ranger: athletics, craft, handle animal, heal, nature, perception, stealth, tie rope Rogue: acrobatics, athletics, civilization, craft, deception, negotiation, perception, perform, profession, stealth, theft, tie rope Misc Skills Use Rope (Dex): learned like a language; 2 (or 1) skill points gives you all uses. Simple uses may be done untrained, throwing a grappling hook is an attack roll. Concentration (Con): lower the DC by 5 and change to a caster level check Appraise (Int): Change to appropriate craft check. Currency uses a civilization check. Use Magic Device (Cha): Nixed! Languages: Unchanged Skill Points: Skill point cost for all skills (except languages) is doubled. Untrained Skill Usage If you don't have ranks in a skill, you can still use the first 7 skills plus you can make... Wis checks to survive in the wilderness. Int checks to know common knowledge, appraise common items. Cha checks to direct an animal. I would suggest putting only the first 7 skills on a character sheet, with blank lines for the rest. Converting Bonuses Typically if a creature has a bonus in old skill(s), give him that bonus to the entire new skill that encompasses it/them. For bonuses to hide or move silently, cut the bonus in half before applying to stealth. Dwarves get a +2 bonus to craft(masonry), craft(smithing) and related perception checks. Skill bonus magic items either apply to same narrow use at same cost, or widened to new skill and cost is doubled.
#2 Nathreet Apr 14, 2008 8:57:34	Shortened first post to keep things simple, in hopes of some critique. PEACH.
#3 alex_trabia Apr 17, 2008 22:55:46	Just wanted to give you kudos to making the first steps in making D&D more democratic and open-source. I, for one, want people to be less concerned with balance and more concerned with fun. Combining skills is certainly nothing new, but it's something that needs to be done! The skill list is unwieldy and takes too much time to do. I'm really glad they're fixing this in 4e, but I hope they don't axe it so much that it becomes impossible to roleplay out certain things. Here's my criticism: First, kudos on the "Deception" skill. It's a good combination that makes sense, and I'll probably use it. Second, I don't like the following combinations: Ride with Acrobatics, Search with Spot/Listen, Sense Motive with Diplomacy, Know (dungeoneering) with Nature, Concentration with Spellcraft, and Disable Device with Ledgar... yeah, I can't spell that, just call it thievery =p Some suggestions: Don't limit yourself to single ability scores for all these combined skills- your DM can easily change the ability score modifier based on the situation or particular skill in a subset. The reason for combining skills should always be with the intent to let players do more and be less limited by their skill choices, while making logical choices about what skills should be combined. Awareness (spot/listen) makes a lot more sense than perception. Being able to spot something from a distance is a very different skill than being able to notice something right in front of you- just ask any far sighted or near sighted person. Handle Animal including Handle Animal and Ride. Perhaps even better would be to leave Ride its own skill- just because you can balance on a horse doesn't mean you can guide it properly. Sense motive shouldn't be combined with Diplomacy or any persuasive skill. The way I generally do it is combine Sense Motive with Search into a Scrutiny skill. The ability to scrutinize your environment and others is often interrelated. Nature should not include dungeoneering. This knowledge set includes such things as wooden supports for mines and cave collapses- something that isn't necessary for natural caves and the like, which dungeons sometimes aren't. Profession should be less a skill and more a subset of other skills. For example, Knowledge when working in a library or the like. If it's important for your campaign, add a seperate skill Business Sense, though if the players are managing their companies, a d20 roll shouldn't really matter? Take concentration OUT of spellcraft! Spellcraft is the ability to recognize and write down spells without blowing yourself up- how does that combine with concentration? You might as well call the skill "Spellcasters put skillpoints here" Other ideas: Heal should be its own thing, though you might include Knowledge (anatomy) or something similar with it. Disable Device should instead be combined with Craft (trapmaking) for Trapsmithing. This just makes too much sense- not all rogues are going to be worried about traps if all they do is break into commoner's homes and steal whatever they can get. Put Use Magic Device with Spellcraft. Take all this with a grain of salt. =P
#4 Nathreet Apr 18, 2008 16:04:47	Thanks for the pointers. It seems harder to find constructive help lately. I wanted to stick to a single ability score to keep things simple. If possible I'd like to avoid "orphaned" skills to keep things balanced, but you made a good point that balance may not be necessary. For each skill I read the rules description to help get an idea about what it falls under. Ride was surprisingly focused on acrobatic tricks (basically everything except maybe staying mounted in combat). Knowledge(dungeoneering), per core rules, was surprisingly focused on natural caves, whereas support beams, etc. falls under architecture and engineering. And it's a ranger class skill, which helps even more. There was also a lot of overlap in the descriptions between knowledge: geography, nobility & royalty, local and history. But not quite enough, which made things frustrating. I'm not sure if nobility & royalty should be combined with history really. History probably fits better with local. I've considered combining all 4, but even that's iffy. I can see removing sense motive from negotiating. Now I just need to figure out where to put it. I think scrutinizing a person is different from scrutinizing an object. The border between spot and search is often blurry, so I thought I'd just remove confusion unless I can find a way to resolve it. Plus I think 4e does things the same way. Business sense is exactly what I wanted profession to be. Maybe I should make that clearer, or just say "business sense". Lol at "spellcasters put skill points here". That's what I was thinking, but in other language. OKay, maybe I'll take out concentration. Still need a place for it, or maybe I'll just bite the bullet and leave some skills "orphaned". Other ideas on disable device, UMD: Of course! Good ideas, will do. Editing 1st post now accordingly.
#5 augurer Apr 22, 2008 18:04:10	Have you taken a look at Pathfinder RPG (aka D&D 3.75)? http://paizo.com/store/downloads/pathfinderRPG They've done a lot of things you're doing with their updated skill system. You can download a pdf of the "alpha" for free. You just have to register.
#6 Nathreet Apr 22, 2008 19:14:49	I copied Pathfinder and used "theft" over "legerdemain" and assigned the same skills to it. Still, they didn't reduce the number of skills that much. The basic skill set is 24 skills (not inluding knowledge, craft, etc.), vs. 33ish for 3.5. EDIT: You have no idea how tempted I am to change "theft" to "burglaring". But I'll leave it as "theft". Halflings must change the skill name though, heh. EDIT #2: Oh man, only 2 skills left. I think I may actually finish and use this system. Come on, I'm stuck, gimme some pointers so this can be finished . Criticism on existing choices is still good, of course. Btw WotC has some awesome quick reference skill summaries in their free downloadable custom character sheets. I'd suggest adapting those.
#7 bwarsnaf Apr 24, 2008 18:06:42	Maybe put Heal into Nature? It makes some sense because Survival is in that category, it has to do with the aiding the bodies natural healing abilities, and it has the same key ability score. Handle Animal, I think, should fall into Negotiating. With Handle Animal you're, essentially, attempting to persuade an animal to perform some task (attack, defend, a trick, etc). Also, you seem to have lost Intimidate. Put it into Deception? Even though it would be paired with Bluff, the two skills have different applications. They also have similar modus operandi, that being, the creation of false impression in the mind of another. And what is your reasoning for turning Use Rope into a "give me" skill? Anyone, with a skill point or two, can now tie any knot with the same skill level and have it be equally strong. It doesn't make sense. Make it a craft, perhaps?
#8 Nathreet Apr 25, 2008 1:33:24	Hey Ken. Well, there are only so many knots you can learn, and I figured one guy's clove hitch shouldn't be any stronger than the next guy's. That's why I wanted to make it more like a language; you just learn it and get your merit badge. Anybody could still tie a regular knot, though it'd be easier to break the rope (but probably not any easier to slip out). If I hear about any professional rope tying person extraordinaire I may change my mind. Ya heal is related to nature, and handle animal is kinda like negotiating. But I can't see a good reason why someone who knew one would likely know the other. Both are almost essential under certain circumstances, but almost useless under others. So maybe they could stay alone, and those who really need them would be forced to take them. I mean, healing is a pretty big skill by itself. You need a lot of training & experience to heal well. The intimidate skill description is similar to diplomacy, so I put it under negotiating. I'd think of it as negotiating with a circumstance bonus due to coercion (but a circumstance penalty after it's all over and the guy hates you) EDIT: Re-sorted. Still need a place for handle animal. Might have to leave it alone.
#9 Otto_the_Bugbear Apr 26, 2008 6:24:54	This is something I've been working at changing as well. Mostly out a sense that it just needs to be simplified a little bit. That said, here are a few suggestions to consider. I'd like to make a simpler skill system. The new skills fully encapsulate the old ones listed. Some things are taken for 4e, some from a campaign I started playing in. What I'd really like to know is, will this create balance/etc. issues?? Skills (not including languages) Include languages as its own skill group. It would cover languages the PC knows, how well they know it; 2 ranks = crude but passable, 4 ranks = good but with accent, 6 ranks = fluent. (I don't let PCs be literate unless then spend skill points as well -- better conveys the "feel" I want for my games -- so literacy could be here as well depending upon how you feel about it.) Acrobatics (Dex): balance, escape artist, ride (all uses except non-acrobatic ones), tumble Remove Ride from this one. It will come in later. That lets you get rid of the "all uses except..." clause. Athletics (Str): climb, jump, swim Perception (Wis): listen, search, spot There's really nothing wrong with just listing it as (Wis/Int) and specifying which is which. And there's nothing wrong with leaving it Wis either. This is just a point to consider that won't really get any more comments against from me if you decide to leave it Wis only. Stealth (Dex): hide, move silently Perform (Cha): Mostly unchanged. Profession (Wis): Business sense, nothing more. No longer a multi-skill. Specific uses of the old profession skill require various other skills. I like this change to profession. I'm going to use it as well. It's just plain business sense now, instead of 9 zillion sub-categories. Negotiating (Cha): diplomacy, sense motive, gather information, intimidate I called it Social Interaction, but that's really just semantics. Also, Sense Motive isn't really a Charisma skill. Just list it this one as (Cha/Wis). Deception (Cha): bluff, disguise, forgery You craft documents via the Craft skill, but you don't do the same with forged documents? Move Forgery into Craft. Theft (Dex): open lock, sleight of hand Add disable device here. The idea of skill consolidation really started in, and gained momentum with, three things; Stealth (hide, move silent), Perception (listen, spot, search), and Disable Device (open lock, disable device). Heal (wis): Unchanged. I had to do this as well. Heal all by itself. That's ok. Craft (Int): Now alchemy, carpentry (wood), smithing (metal), masonry (stone, bricks), tayloring (cloth, leather), mechanisms (machines, traps), art (paintings, sculptures), gemcutting, others. Disable device falls under craft(mechanism), though others may provide a +2 sometimes. Many knowledge checks now require craft checks instead. Weaponsmithing, bowmaking, armorsmithing and blacksmithing fall under carpentry, smithing and tayloring. Ok. That sounds fine (except the disable device, which I explained above). Nature (Wis): knowledge(dungeoneering), knowledge(nature), survival Civilization (Int): knowledge(geography), knowledge(local) Spellcraft (Int): knowledge(arcana), spellcraft, use magic device, decipher script for scrolls (gasp! unpaired! Oh well) History: knowledge(nobility & royalty), knowledge(history), decipher script for ancient writings Planar Knowledge: knowledge(religion), knowledge(planes) Ok, knowledges! I'm just going to put how I did it, rather than pick apart the whys and what-fors of each one. Knowledge (Arcane): Arcana, Identify Item, Spellcraft Knowledge (Exploration): Dungeoneering, Geography, Nature Knowledge (Local): History, Local, Nobility and Royalty Knowledge (Cosmology): The Planes, Religion, the Gods Knowledge (Practical): Appraise, Architecture and Engineering, Martial Lore (No Use Magic Device. I decided to drop it altogether. Just multi-class (I dropped the multi-class XP penalty) if you want to use the few magic items that require it.) Use Rope: learned like a language; 2 (or 1) skill points gives you all uses. Simple uses may be done untrained, throwing a grappling hook is an attack roll. I figured this would be part of profession. Now with Profession becoming 'business sense', it might have to fall under Knowledge (practical) or something else. Now, on to the ones that may seem missing from the above suggestions; Concentration, Ride, Handle Animal, & Survival. Endurance (Con): Concentration, Hold Breath, Endurance (as the feat, except anything swimming related, which falls under swimming) Animal Handling (Dex/Cha): Handle Animal, Ride, Wild Empathy Yes, this robs two classes of their Wild Empathy stranglehold. But that's easily remedied. They get to add their class level as a bonus to Wild Empathy checks. Wilderness Lore (Wis): Track, Survival These two (track, survival) were bound together anyway, so why not just combine them. I'm not even sure I'll be giving anything to the ranger in response to this change. Perhaps a flat bonus to Wilderness Lore. Skill Synergies I dropped for two reasons. First, It's just one more minor bonus to keep track of, and many of these are situational. Second, consolidating the skills this much basically allows characters to more than compensate for that lost +2 from synergy. It's really not needed. I think that covers everything, though I must admit I may have gotten lost trying to cross-reference my notes and your post, while thinking about changing my notes due to what you've got written here.
#10 Nathreet Apr 26, 2008 13:07:40	Languages: That's just fine, and perhaps an improvement over WotC, but I'd prefer to take away not add where possible. Theft: Ya I originally had disable device, here, and I've been moving it back and forth. See comments by other posters. I'm putting DD back in theft, removing craft(mechanism), leaving such things under carpentry/masonry/smithing. Otherwise you get a lot of nasty overlap and I hate that. I can see why open lock and DD should be together. And this is the way it's used in game too. So I'm making these changes mostly for playability, even though the other way made slightly more sense. UMD: Ya, I've been thinking of dropping it as well. It doesn't get much use, and really it's better to multiclass. Ok, I'm nixing it. Ride: I also wanted to put it under handle animal, until I read all the acrobatic uses in the skill description. But I reread it after you posted, and now I divided it among acrobatics and handle animal as appropriate. Synergy: Good point, I'll think about dropping it. Then again there aren't that many to worry about anymore. I think you're the 2nd person to suggest mixed ability scores for different uses, but I wanted to avoid this for simplicity. There's in game adding, figuring out which sub-usage of the skill you're using (which defeats part of the reason for consolidating), figuring out which stat to add, etc. But anyone willing to go to the trouble could of course add it to their own game. I'm going to edit my first post now. I'm also gonna re-organize the list the way I'd like to see it on a character sheet, for player convenience. EDIT: I'm calling the system "done" now. I'm still open to changes, naturally. There are now 17 skills including 2 multi-skills, in 8 groups, vs. the core 36 skills including 4 multi-skills. I'm thinking a character sheet would have only the first 6, with blank lines to fill in the rest. Leaves little for the player to worry about. That's good enough for me.
#11 Otto_the_Bugbear Apr 26, 2008 14:02:46	re: Languages I didn't post it, but part of the reason I decided to do Languages that way was because I've reduced the number of languages to 5 (plus some planar languages). re: Synergy I guess with only, what, 5 remaining, it's not such a big deal either way. re: Mixed ability scores I hadn't considered that bit about calculating on the fly. That'll take some rethinking. Perception can just be all Wis, of course, but other stuff may not work out so well. Theft (Open Lock, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand) can be all Dex. Animal Handling is a harder one to do though. I'll have to give it some thought.
#12 arochanox Apr 27, 2008 7:43:54	Basic Skills (untrained ok) Acrobatics (Dex): balance, escape artist, tumble. Plus ride to: Fight Mounted, Cover, Soft Fall, Fast Mount/Dismount. Athletics (Str): climb, jump, swim I'd remove ride too. I think ride should be its own skill (like heal) as it gives so many possibilities. Or maybe include it to handle animal. Negotiating (Cha): diplomacy, sense motive, gather information, intimidate Deception (Cha): bluff, disguise, forgery As mentioned before, sense motive and forgery won't mix well into said skill collections. Sense motive is more like sosial perception and lie detection, and thus be either is perception or some other skill. I've never liked bluff and disguise mixed together. One is about make-ups and outlooks other is about bluffing with social interaction. They basically are 2 different areas of expertise. Perception (Wis): listen, search, spot Stealth (Dex): hide, move silently I also wote for awareness that is listen and spot only. Search should be combined with appraise and maybe decipher script. Special Skills Nature (Wis): knowledge(dungeoneering), knowledge(nature), survival Civilization (Int): knowledge(geography), knowledge(local) Dungeoneering wouldn't fit for nature as it's most often built environment. If you named it "Lore: Nature" or "Knowledge: Nature" it would fit better. Civilization isn't actually a "skill". It should be "Lore: Civilized Environment" or maybe "Knowledge: built environment". History: knowledge(nobility & royalty), knowledge(history), decipher script for ancient writings Planar Knowledge: knowledge(religion), knowledge(planes) I think history should just give a synergy bonus for decipher script. Profession (Wis): Business sense, nothing more. No longer a multi-skill. Specific uses of the old profession skill require various other skills. Perform (Cha): Mostly unchanged. Good changes. Theft (Dex): open lock, sleight of hand, disable device Good mix. Craft (Int): Now alchemy, carpentry (wood), smithing (metal), masonry (stone, bricks), tayloring (cloth, leather), art (paintings, sculptures), gemcutting, others. Many knowledge checks now require craft checks instead. Weaponsmithing, bowmaking, armorsmithing and blacksmithing fall under carpentry, smithing and tayloring. I don't quite get this. Do you want to mix all different crafts together? Spellcraft (Int): knowledge(arcana), spellcraft, decipher script for scrolls Heal (Wis): Unchanged. OK Handle Animal (Cha): Keep all old uses. Add ride checks to: Leap, Spur Mount, Control Mount in Battle. I would move entire ride skill here. For a total list of: Basic Skills (untrained ok) Acrobatics (Dex): balance, escape artist, tumble. Athletics (Str): climb, jump, swim Negotiating (Cha): diplomacy, gather information, intimidate Deception (Cha): bluff Sense Motive (Wis): unchanged (These three puzzle me. I can't mix and match them evenly.) Awareness (Wis): listen, spot Stealth (Dex): hide, move silently, disguise Special Skills Nature Lore (Int): knowledge(dungeoneering), knowledge(nature), survival Civilization Lore (Int): knowledge(geography), knowledge(local) History Lore (Int): knowledge(nobility & royalty), knowledge(history) Planar Lore (Int): knowledge(religion), knowledge(planes) Profession (Wis): Business sense, nothing more. No longer a multi-skill. Specific uses of the old profession skill require various other skills. Perform (Cha): Mostly unchanged. Thievery (Dex): open lock, sleight of hand, disable device, forgery Spellcraft (Int): knowledge(arcana), spellcraft Heal (Wis): Unchanged. Handle Animal (Cha): Handle Animal, Ride Detection (Int): Appraise, Decipher Script, Search Craft (Int): Now alchemy, carpentry (wood), smithing (metal), masonry (stone, bricks), tayloring (cloth, leather), art (paintings, sculptures), gemcutting, others. Many knowledge checks now require craft checks instead. Weaponsmithing, bowmaking, armorsmithing and blacksmithing fall under carpentry, smithing and tayloring. I hope I got them all right as I meant :D
#13 Nathreet Apr 27, 2008 12:00:55	Hmm, I'm gonna leave it as-is, but I'll add a list of problematic skills to the 1st post for DM's who might wanna re-arrange things. Problematic skills = sense motive, forgery, decipher script, disable device. I left out search b/c putting it in perception is pretty popular, and 4e does it. Plus distinguishing between search and spot can sometimes be confusing. There are 4-ish knowledge skills. I called them "X" instead of knowledge(X) simply to keep the name short. It's just a matter of terminology. Call them lore or knowledge or w/e if that makes more sense to you. I added a note to the 1st post to that effect. Craft: Craft is still a multi-skill. I got rid of the old categories and made new ones. There's no direct relation between old and new. So when I say those 4 old skills fit into the 3 new ones, each of the 4 got divided among 1 or more of the 3, depending on the material involved. Ride: If you look up the ride rules and the way I split it up, all the persuasion uses went to handle animal, while all the acrobatic uses went to acrobatics. Those are: fighting with both hands while guiding horse with knees, staying in the saddle after getting hit, fighting even while the horse is making attacks, hanging off the side of your horse to use it as cover, falling off a horse w/o taking damage, mounting/dismounting a horse as a free action (instead of a move action). Btw, I'm working on a much shortened character sheet, which includes this skill system but no other rule changes. Since it only shows the first 6 skill names anyway, a lot of adjustments are possible. I may get something done today. Otherwise I may have to wait any amount of time for another free weekend. Long character sheets seem more popular, so a lot of DMs may want to use something else.
#14 vapthorne Apr 27, 2008 13:45:33	I think the idea of this new skill system? How ever, I'm a little perplexed on the idea of lumping Diplomacy / Intimidate together as Negotiating. I understand the reasoning behind, but in practice I don't how they can blend together because the classes that have uses these skills are at the opposite end of the spectrum, so to speak. You have Barbarians, Fighters, Warlocks and Rogues who intimidate. Then you have Bards, Clerics, Druids, Monks, Paladins, and Rogues who are diplomatic. I have no problems with the ideas of Clerics, Paladins, Bards, etc that can be intimidating when the situation calls. I just have a little trouble with the notion that a Barbarian or brute-like Fighter being so diplomatic and silver-tongued. I'm curious what's everyone thoughts on this.
#15 Otto_the_Bugbear Apr 27, 2008 19:29:20	Leave Riding tricks in Acrobatics, and handling the mount in Handle Animal. A few of the Ride tricks -- such as falling out of the saddle for no damage -- are already covered by other skills. Vapthorne, I think that lumping all the social skills together is a good idea. Perhaps it's just the name "negotiating" that's the problem. Intimidating isn't really negotiating, but it's still social interaction. Bluffing isn't diplomacizing, but it's still social interaction. And so forth. Nathreet, you said, "Problematic skills = sense motive, forgery, decipher script, disable device." Sense Motive is always happening during social "encounters", so I'd just lump those all together. Forgery is crafting a document that's a lie. It's the same skill as crafting a document that's not a lie. Just make it a craft skill. Decipher Script is a hard one. I never gave it any thought because literacy must be purchased anyway in my game, the ability to decipher scripts would just fall under Languages/Literacy. Disable Device is grouped with Open Lock. Actually, that's backward. Open Lock is grouped in with Disable Device. They're basically the same action, especially in a simplified system like this.
#16 arochanox Apr 28, 2008 2:25:19	Decipher Script is a hard one. I never gave it any thought because literacy must be purchased anyway in my game, the ability to decipher scripts would just fall under Languages/Literacy. I suggest combining Decipher Script and the other intelligence related (visual) skills together to get detection. The basic skill for detectives and treasure hunters like Indiana Jones. All the three skills require active studying of the target object or area. Detection (Int): Appraise, Decipher Script, Search Forgery is crafting a document that's a lie. That's why I'd include it to a thievery or theft skill that already collects open locks and disable devices. Craft skill should absolutely give a bonus to it. Forgery is rather rarely used skill and has little or no value in most games. Including it into a group of skills that is more often used (and taken ranks) could make the skill more used, which is good.
#17 Otto_the_Bugbear Apr 28, 2008 6:12:16	I see. But to me crafting a document is crafting a document, whether it's a lie or not it's still the same action -- scribing.
#18 arochanox Apr 28, 2008 9:51:36	Forgery is also used to inspect if the document is false or not. So maybe forgery should be divided into 2 skills. One side to my proposal "Detection" and the other to Otto's craft. Or maybe include the inspection part with perception, where the search is.
#19 Nathreet Apr 28, 2008 15:11:08	I can see the problem with intimidate. The best solution I can think of for now is to not give negotiating to classes with intimidate but not diplomacy. Plus, assuming intimidate is "diplomacy adjusted with circumstances", any class could still attempt to motivate with circumstances but w/o diplomacy. That's more of a "Do this or else" than a subtle manipulation like the more sophisticated types might try, and I think that makes sense. If your life is threatened and you value your life, you tend to give in regardless of how manipulative the assailant is. If anyone has another solution, I'd be glad to hear it. Detection: At first I thought this was an interesting grouping, but then thinking about the specific uses of the 3 skills I couldn't see them meshing. I mean merchants appraise, historians decipher scripts and when you're trying to find a small key you lost you search for it. The fact that Indiana Jones/etc. has all 3 just makes him a rogue-type. Not to mention a lot of classes have 1 but not the others (this is the same problem as intimidate). Forgery: A lot of things may be called "craft". Craft: Alliby? Craft: Disguise? Craft: Disabled device? Etc. But the difference between forgery and making ink and paper involves shaping the letters to match the appropriate handwriting and selecting the content so that it seems believable. I'm gonna keep it under deception. As for the forgery check to discover a forgery, that runs into the issue brought up before: Should sense motive really be under diplomacy?
#20 larry_the_titan Apr 28, 2008 16:53:05	I recently put an alternate skill system together myself. I would say it was simple but it was more benefitial for a player building a character. The only thing I can't seem to spot on your system is how to determine class skills on the shorter list. My recommendations for your system though are: 1. Don't attach skills to a stat at all. A DM who can call out for a Athletics(Con) check might catch a lazy player off guard when he says he is going to climb a mile high cliff face or the Caster getting told to make a Concentration (Wis) check when hit by a Spell while casting. 2. Don't use synergy bonuses. They just become useless when compared to a magic that gives a +15 to the same skill. 3. Keep the Lore instead of knowledges. Also consider reversing what you did with spell crafting taking control of Knowledge Arcane. Why should a Divine caster gain the use of Knowledge Arcane when he takes ranks in spellcraft. His spells are very different and come from a source not just from his knowledge or skill. Personally I was considering having the Knowledges consume parts of Spellcraft in my own system. Arcane Lore: Knowledge Arcane and Spell Craft for Arcane spells. (Wizard) Divine Lore: Knowledge Religion and Spell Craft for God granted Spells. (Cleric) Nature Lore: Knowledge Nature and Spell Craft for Spells gained from Nature. (Druid) Psi Lore: Knowledge Psionics and Psicraft Martail Lore: This was already merged this way. Its a great example to follow if you ever paid attention to Tome of Battle. 4. Consider the application of adding the skills that were released in later books then just core. Knowledge Psionics, Psicraft, Use Psionic Device, Martial Lore, Iaijustsu Focus. There are others I think but for the most part this covers most.
#21 Otto_the_Bugbear Apr 28, 2008 17:46:52	Forgery: A lot of things may be called "craft". Craft: Alliby? Craft: Disguise? Craft: Disabled device? Etc. But the difference between forgery and making ink and paper involves shaping the letters to match the appropriate handwriting and selecting the content so that it seems believable. I'm gonna keep it under deception. As for the forgery check to discover a forgery, that runs into the issue brought up before: Should sense motive really be under diplomacy? I guess I'm looking at scribing/writhing from a more historical aspect. More like how in the Dark Ages or Antiquity most people weren't literate. Being able to write at all was a skill. Then I extrapolated that to writing lies, such as forged documents or false treaties or whatever, is just an extension of writing at all. But if you're set on leaving it the way you describe, that's . After all, whatever works best for your game. I've flopped back and forth between Sense Motive being part of Social Interaction or being part of Perception. In the end it boils down to not wanting Sense Motive to be a stand-alone skill v. trying to justify it being tied to some other skills.
#22 Nathreet Apr 28, 2008 19:09:49	I recently put an alternate skill system together myself. I would say it was simple but it was more benefitial for a player building a character. The only thing I can't seem to spot on your system is how to determine class skills on the shorter list. My recommendations for your system though are: 1. Don't attach skills to a stat at all. A DM who can call out for a Athletics(Con) check might catch a lazy player off guard when he says he is going to climb a mile high cliff face or the Caster getting told to make a Concentration (Wis) check when hit by a Spell while casting. 2. Don't use synergy bonuses. They just become useless when compared to a magic that gives a +15 to the same skill. 3. Keep the Lore instead of knowledges. Also consider reversing what you did with spell crafting taking control of Knowledge Arcane. Why should a Divine caster gain the use of Knowledge Arcane when he takes ranks in spellcraft. His spells are very different and come from a source not just from his knowledge or skill. Personally I was considering having the Knowledges consume parts of Spellcraft in my own system. Arcane Lore: Knowledge Arcane and Spell Craft for Arcane spells. (Wizard) Divine Lore: Knowledge Religion and Spell Craft for God granted Spells. (Cleric) Nature Lore: Knowledge Nature and Spell Craft for Spells gained from Nature. (Druid) Psi Lore: Knowledge Psionics and Psicraft Martail Lore: This was already merged this way. Its a great example to follow if you ever paid attention to Tome of Battle. 4. Consider the application of adding the skills that were released in later books then just core. Knowledge Psionics, Psicraft, Use Psionic Device, Martial Lore, Iaijustsu Focus. There are others I think but for the most part this covers most. Thanks for numbering. 1. Mmm, if there's any way to do mixed stats this is the way. Having the DM call out the stat on the fly removes most of the confusion & headache. You still need to add on the fly, which depends on how much your players like arithmetic, but all the guessing is gone. Good idea. I'm not gonna use it but Otto, I think this solves your problem. When I get a minute I may make a "variant" section in the 1st post for stuff like this. 2. Magic only applies to certain skills. With skills and everything, every +1 counts. But the main reason I including synergy was to match 3.5. I made them correspond to the old skills as closely as I could. If you never bothered with synergy in 3.5, then go ahead and dump these as well. 3. Looks like a very good and interesting idea, but I'm a bit sleepy/sleepless right now. I'll take a better look at it later. EDIT: I partially included this idea, but I still don't like the divine side. It's the paladin that really screws up knowledge(religion), since he has no spell skills. Plus including the divine in "Planar Lore" will confuse most players. I'm thinking I gotta refine this further now. EDIT #2: Sorry, heh, I checked the cleric's 3.5 skill list, saw knowledge(arcana) on there, so I changed everything back. From this it doesn't seem to make sense to limit him to a divine-only knowledge of magic. Also solves the paladin problem, since giving him knowledge(the planes) with his knowledge(religion) isn't a huge addition. I'm trying to stick to 3.5 as closely as possible. If you don't like 3.5 or w/e, you can of course do things however you want. 4. That's a good future step, though I'd like to take things one step at a time. Now I'm working on a new character sheet. Everything except gear & spells fits on one page, but there's a big gaping hole in the bottom right corner. Enough to go back to the old skill list, heh. Maybe I'll make a standard version of the character sheet too. If anyone's interested and/or isn't sure how to DIY, I can list out the class skills for each class.